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The sound of the letter 'X' followed by a vowel letter, a consonant letter(Pronunciation) Options
A cooperator
Posted: Thursday, December 7, 2017 6:13:26 PM

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Hi Everyone!
I have really been faced with an issue spelling out some English words, such as:
E xaggerate
E xcuse
E xcise
E xhaust
The issue lies in the pronunciation of the letter "X" followed by a vowel letter is "/gz/" as in "exaggerate, example, etc", and the pronunciation of the letter "X" followed by a consonant letter is sometimes "/gz/", like in "exhaust", and other times is "/k/", as in "excuse", "excise". As I highlighted above.



Whoever doesn't own what he promises to those who do not deserve must not promise it.
Drag0nspeaker
Posted: Thursday, December 7, 2017 9:41:04 PM

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Hi.

I understand the difficulty - the letter 'X' is used in modern spelling to replace several different foreign letters. The pronunciation often depends on whether the 'x' comes after the stressed vowel (ks) or before it (gz), but this is not a definite rule. I have marked the stressed vowel with blue colour.

Exaggerate - Eksadjerate or Egzadjerate
Example - egzample
Excuse - Ekskuse
Excise - Eksize or Eksize
Exhaust - Egzaust as a noun or adjective - Egzaust as a verb
Xenon - Zenon (from Greek letter X)
Mexico - Meksiko or Mechiko
Xhosa - (click)oza (this sound is one which few British people can duplicate)
Xiang - shiang (used mainly in names)



Wyrd bið ful aræd - bull!
Monon Bhuyan
Posted: Friday, December 8, 2017 12:58:59 AM

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Good explanation above, but I would like to add my 2 cents.

The Chinese (and some other SE Asian languages) X is not really pronounced as "SH." The X is a stand in for certain alphabets that have a semi-aspirated sound that has no real equivalent in English. One of the best ways to describe how to reproduce the sound is to do this:
1. Relax your tongue and touch the tip below your front teeth.
2. Try and push the middle of your tongue towards the roof of the mouth, but not actually touch it. Remember to keep the tongue relaxed.
3. Try and say "She" with the tongue in that position.

The sound comes out more like "see" or even "he." If you keep your hand in front of your mouth, you will feel a puff of your breath hit it.

Failing to describe it any better, I managed to find a good resource here at resources (dot) allsetlearning (dot) com /chinese/pronunciation/The_"j"_"q"_and_"x"_sounds

Add h t t p s : // before it, replace (dot) with actual . and remove spaces since i cant post links.The page has an audio guide near the bottom of the page too.

Drag0nspeaker
Posted: Friday, December 8, 2017 1:16:30 AM

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Here's the link.

Thanks Monon Bhuyan!
Yes - my explanation was rather short - the Spanish/South American; Chinese and Xhosa/Zulu pronunciations are not quite equivalent to any sounds used in 'normal' English. They are mostly used in names of countries, cities and people, but you do find occasional food items with names borrowed from these languages.


Wyrd bið ful aræd - bull!
A cooperator
Posted: Friday, December 8, 2017 8:47:25 AM

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Drag0nspeaker wrote:
Hi.

I understand the difficulty - the letter 'X' is used in modern spelling to replace several different foreign letters. The pronunciation often depends on whether the 'x' comes after the stressed vowel (ks) or before it (gz), but this is not a definite rule. I have marked the stressed vowel with blue colour.

Exaggerate - Eksadjerate or Egzadjerate
Example - egzample
Excuse - Ekskuse
Excise - Eksize or Eksize
Exhaust - Egzaust as a noun or adjective - Egzaust as a verb
Xenon - Zenon (from Greek letter X)
Mexico - Meksiko or Mechiko
Xhosa - (click)oza (this sound is one which few British people can duplicate)
Xiang - shiang (used mainly in names)


Thanks a lot, Darag0nspeaker, Monon Bhuyan!
It is not a matter of pronouncing the letter "X". However, how to spell out "X" while his sound is pronounced with the compound phonetic "ks" or "zg", etc.
In my Arabic language, what my tongue pronounces will be written down/ spelt out. No letters having two phonics such as as "X" /gz/, no silent letters.



Whoever doesn't own what he promises to those who do not deserve must not promise it.
thar
Posted: Friday, December 8, 2017 9:12:57 AM

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'-Ex' was originally a 'foreign' addition to English, although it is in so many words and has been around for a millenium. But the prefix ex- is Latin, French. So in English, a word might end in -ec and the plural would be -ecs. Totally phonetic. That later changed to -ecks - still phonetic, just a bit redundant.
Then all those Latin words came along with -ex, meaning 'out'. And as you have found, a lot of words use that prefix to form a particular meaning. They just got put into English, and now they are there. Whistle

The -ex is pronounced phonetically - it is just the letters after it that might not be so clear, especially if they are not words themselves, only with the prefix.Whistle
but if you remember the -ex is a suffix, so it is unstressed, and you run smoothly into the next syllable, then they are generally phonetic.
exaggerate is a bit of an anomaly because a double g should be hard, not soft. This is really two single g sounds, one after the other, both soft.
ex ag gerate


Changing the subject slightly, the word 'taxi' is a word which has been adopted by a lot of languages around the world. (Originally it meant a cab where you pay a charge, a tax to travel).
But in many languages, the spelling is changed to get rid of that ridiculous x - in many places it is a taksi.
You are not alone in your frustration! Whistle
A cooperator
Posted: Friday, December 8, 2017 4:24:46 PM

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thar wrote:
'-
Changing the subject slightly, the word 'taxi' is a word which has been adopted by a lot of languages around the world. (Originally it meant a cab where you pay a charge, a tax to travel).
But in many languages, the spelling is changed to get rid of that ridiculous x - in many places it is a taksi.
You are not alone in your frustration! Whistle

Thanks a lot, Thar,
Yes, you are right. In my Arabic language, which has 28 letters, I was firstly taught the letters and how to pronounce and write them down(spell them out). Only one letter which is silent in only some words. However, it is pronounced phonetically in some other words. Each letter is pronounced phonetically with one sound.

Besides, yes "X" is pronounced phonetically, but I mean why it is pronounced as "gz" in "exaggerate". "gz" is two sounds, "g" and "z" for only one letter "X".

BTW, you have the same frustration.

Whoever doesn't own what he promises to those who do not deserve must not promise it.
thar
Posted: Friday, December 8, 2017 6:53:30 PM

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From what little I understand of Arabic, you write the consonants as simple phonemes and interpolate the vowel sounds more.

You have to understand that -ex is considered one phoneme - a complete unit of sound.

You can write it using various letters, because they can build up to similar sounds.

Eg
Ex
Ecks
Egz
Egs

I don't know what the linguistic ternm for it, but the fact is, the English alphabet is only used semi iPhone tidally.

If someone writes a word like 'sow', without context I don't know how to pronounce it. If someone says the sound 'tu', then I don't know how to spell it without context. There are just too many ways of coding the sounds of the language.

But trust the language,here. It is phonetic.

Exaggerate -ex ag gerate. If you run that together you get 'eksajerate'.

Exhaust - ex haust. If you run that together you get 'eksorst'

The 'ex sound is consistent. Just think of -ex' as more efficient coding of the sound than 'eks'.


And don't get too focused on the need to get it perfect. Native speakers realize it is a silly situation, having so many similar sounds. There is natural variation in how you say it. Lots of puns express this idea.

Eg






(That should be 'egg- staordinarily' with an i.)

You can't fix it - you just have to accept it as it is. Whistle



A cooperator
Posted: Saturday, December 9, 2017 6:47:32 PM

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thar wrote:
From what little I understand of Arabic, you write the consonants as simple phonemes and interpolate the vowel sounds more.

You have to understand that -ex is considered one phoneme - a complete unit of sound.

You can write it using various letters, because they can build up to similar sounds.

Eg
Ex
Ecks
Egz
Egs

I don't know what the linguistic ternm for it, but the fact is, the English alphabet is only used semi iPhone tidally.

If someone writes a word like 'sow', without context I don't know how to pronounce it. If someone says the sound 'tu', then I don't know how to spell it without context. There are just too many ways of coding the sounds of the language.

But trust the language,here. It is phonetic.

Exaggerate -ex ag gerate. If you run that together you get 'eksajerate'.

Exhaust - ex haust. If you run that together you get 'eksorst'

The 'ex sound is consistent. Just think of -ex' as more efficient coding of the sound than 'eks'.


Thanks a lot, Thar,
Firstly: I am expecting that the 'e' is a vowel letter, which is a standalone from 'X', and 'X' is a consistent. Thus, why do you say 'Ex' as a unit one in 'example /igˈzampəl, exaggerate /ɪɡˈzadʒəreɪt/. I don't have any issue with 'e' in either. The 'e' is pronounced phonetically alone. And 'X' is pronounced phonetically alone. However, my issue is why 'X' has been written with two phonetics 'gz'. I.e. 'X' has the phonetics of the 'g' in 'got' and 'z' in 'zoo'.

Look at the pronunciation of 'exaggerate' from some app, and my own pronunciation of it.

This is the phonetic for 'exaggerate' from Elsa app.


This is the shared link of folder having the recorded files for the pronunciation of 'exaggerate' from some Elsa app, and my own pronunciation of 'exaggerate'. I have uploaded them into my OndDrive account, and shared the link below:


The shared folder link on OneDrive





Whoever doesn't own what he promises to those who do not deserve must not promise it.
Drag0nspeaker
Posted: Monday, December 11, 2017 1:06:34 PM

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I don't know where your app comes from.

I have never heard anyone say IGZagerate.

There is a small difference - you hardly notice it when you are speaking - between the pronunciation of X before a stressed vowel and the pronunciation of X after the stressed vowel.

When the stresses vowel comes before the X, it sounds like ks.

Exit - EKSit
Exise - EKSize

But when the stressed vowel comes after the X, it sounds a little bit like gz:

Example - eGZAMple.

****************
The letters of a word are not individual units in speech, they are not pronounced alone - it is impossible to pronounce an unvoiced consonant without attaching a vowel sound to it.

So the smallest unit of speech, when looking how a word is said, is really the syllable (not the phoneme)

The units of "example" in syllables would be Egz - AM - pəl

Exit would break down to EKS - it

******************
Besides, yes "X" is pronounced phonetically, but I mean why it is pronounced as "gz" in "exaggerate". "gz" is two sounds, "g" and "z" for only one letter "X".

It is pronounced that way because that is the way that people pronounce it and have pronounced it since Roman times, I'm afraid.


Wyrd bið ful aræd - bull!
A cooperator
Posted: Tuesday, December 12, 2017 9:18:53 AM

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Drag0nspeaker wrote:
I don't know where your app comes from.I have never heard anyone say IGZagerate.


I think what is meant/expressed with "/I/" is the sound of the vowel letter "E" in "exaggerate". As I always see "E" is being pronounced as "/I/" if initializing a word.
So, there is no difference between this and what you had said before "
Exaggerate - Eksadjerate or Egzadjerate"


Drag0nspeaker wrote:
Quote:

a coopetator wrote:
Quote:
Besides, yes "X" is pronounced phonetically, but I mean why it is pronounced as "gz" in "exaggerate". "gz" is two sounds, "g" and "z" for only one letter "X".


It is pronounced that way because that is the way that people pronounce it and have pronounced it since Roman times, I'm afraid.


Yes, but I would be faced with an issue misspelling out "X" while pronouncing it if it is pronounced as that way of "gz" or "ks". I.e. "X" may be written down "egzample", egzhaust, egzaggerate, eksit, etc.

Whoever doesn't own what he promises to those who do not deserve must not promise it.
Drag0nspeaker
Posted: Tuesday, December 12, 2017 10:11:58 AM

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Hmmm Think

Ah! - The sound I use at the beginning of "exaggerate" is /ɛ/ - the sound of the vowel in 'bed' and 'set'.
/ɪ/ is very different - it is the sound in 'bid' and 'sit'.

As it shows in my Oxford Dictionary /ɛɡˈzadʒəreɪt/ - I have personally never heard anyone say "igzaggerate".

If you are transliterating English words (that is, you are trying to write the SOUNDS of English using your own "Yemeni alphabet") it is difficult.

You have to know the language and speak it fluently OR you have to look up each word in a pronunciation dictionary.

Similar problems arose when transliterating foreign languages into English letters. Words can be heard in different ways from different speakers and some sounds do not have a letter at all.

The well-known word القرآن‎ is written these days as al-Qurʾān, but early writers (copying what they heard Arabic speakers say) wrote al-Koran, al'q'ran, al-Qur'an or just q'ran.
That initial K or Q or Qu or 'q or q' is spoken differently by different speakers and heard differently by different ears.

It is even more noticeable with the far eastern languages.
The capital of China used to be spelled Peking or Peiping or Beiping in English letters - the modern agreement is that it is Beijing.

Wyrd bið ful aræd - bull!
A cooperator
Posted: Saturday, December 16, 2017 7:56:59 PM

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Thanks a lot, Drag0nspeaker,
I don't know if my issue is since I live in an environment where English is very rarely spoken or really the pronunciation section of English is so difficult that somebody could hardly master it.

I really looked at the standard International Phonetic Alphabet, but I found no phonetic transcription as '/ju:/' where this phonetic transcription is written and pronounced phonetically in some English words.
Nuance /ˈnjuːɑːns/


Besides, although the "Q" and "U" in the spelt letters in "quarrel", "nuance", "quality" etc are the same, the "Q" and "U" are pronounced differently phonetically, written in different phonetic transcriptions.

The phonetic alphabet of 'qu' in 'nuance' /ˈnjuːɑːns/ is '/juː/'

The phonetic alphabet of 'qu' in 'quarrel /ˈkrəl/ is '/wɒ/'

The phonetic alphabet of 'qu' in 'quality' /ˈkləti/ is '/wɒ/'

Whoever doesn't own what he promises to those who do not deserve must not promise it.
A cooperator
Posted: Saturday, December 23, 2017 8:11:36 AM

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Drag0nspeaker wrote:
Hmmm Think

Ah! - The sound I use at the beginning of "exaggerate" is /ɛ/ - the sound of the vowel in 'bed' and 'set'.
/ɪ/ is very different - it is the sound in 'bid' and 'sit'.


Drag0nspeaker,
I never ever saw /ɛ/ even in the international phonetic alphabet. Even the sound of the vowel letter in "bed" /bed/ and "set" /set/ is expressed with the phonetic transaction /e/.
Also, the sound of the vowel in 'bid' /bɪd/ , and 'sit'/sɪt/ is expressed with the phonetic transaction /ɪ/



Quote:
As it shows in my Oxford Dictionary /ɛɡˈzadʒəreɪt/ - I have personally never heard anyone say "igzaggerate"


1)Online Longman Dictionary of Contemporary English stated the sound of the beginning of "exaggerate" as "/ɪ/" ex‧ag‧ge‧rate /ɪɡˈzædʒəreɪt/
Also, the sound of the beginning of "example" as "/ɪ/" /ɪɡˈzɑːmpəl $ ɪɡˈzæm-/ - I.e. the sound of the beginning of "exaggerate" and "example" is /ɪ/ - it is the sound of the vowel in 'bid' /bɪd/ , and 'sit'/sɪt/



2)Not always the sound of the vowel as in bed(noun) /bed/ and 'set' /set/is expressed with the phonetic transaction "/e/".
Sometimes it is expressed with "/ə/" as in 'happen' '/hæpən/'.

Whoever doesn't own what he promises to those who do not deserve must not promise it.
Drag0nspeaker
Posted: Saturday, December 23, 2017 7:00:38 PM

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This link shows you the International Phonetic Alphabet.
It also has sounds.

The sounds of /e/ and /ɛ/ are very similar. I have heard 'exaggerate' with both of these sounds - I have NEVER heard it with the /ɪ/ sound. I guess some dictionaries show one dialect and other dictionaries show another - but I have no idea where people say 'Igzadgereit'.

I don't think that the pronunciation of English is too difficult for you - but you do need to 'UN-learn' (forget) the idea that one letter has one sound - or maybe two sounds - and others are 'incorrect'.
Each letter or combination of letters can have MANY different correct sounds.
These different sounds depend on:
- etymology (did the word come from Greek, Latin, French, Germanic, Norse, Algonquin or Chinese?)
- accent (where did the speaker learn English? - which country or which region of England)
- whether the word is stressed in the particular sentence or not. (the word 'the' can be pronounced - /ð'/ or /ðə/ or /ðɪ/ or /ði/ in different circumstances)
- the previous word and the next word in the sentence
- the rhythm of the sentence.
(possibly other influences too)

English is not algebra.
"a+b+c = (a+b)+c = a+(b+c)" works perfectly for maths but that doesn't mean that "The 'ough' in 'cough' = the 'ough' in 'bough'." - they are totally different.

You are right, /ɪ/ is the sound in the words 'bid' and 'sit'. It is very different from the sound at the beginning of 'exaggerate' - that sound is /e/ or /ɛ/ - it is the sound in the words 'bed' and 'set'.

Quote:
Not always the sound of the vowel as in bed(noun) /bed/ and 'set' /set/ is expressed with the phonetic transaction "/e/".
Sometimes it is expressed with "/ə/" as in 'happen' '/hæpən/'.

No - 'bed' and 'set' are never pronounced /bəd/ and /sət/.
They are pronounced /bed/ and /set/ or /bɛd/ and /sɛt/.

You have the Longman online. Listen to the words 'bid' and 'bed' - then listen to 'exaggerate'.
The initial sound of 'exaggerate' is VERY different from the vowel sound in 'bid' - and very similar (almost identical) to the sound in 'bed'. Listen to them.

***********
Quote:
I really looked at the standard International Phonetic Alphabet, but I found no phonetic transcription as '/ju:/' where this phonetic transcription is written and pronounced phonetically in some English words.
Nuance /ˈnjuːɑːns/


You will not find an IPA symbol /ju:/ - the vowel sound of 'ua' in the word 'nuance' is usually said as /j/, /u/ and /ä/ - three sounds; one approximant consonant and two vowels in a diphthong. /njuäns/
Some people pronounce it as the French would. /nuäns/

**************
Quote:
Besides, although the "Q" and "U" in the spelt letters in "quarrel", "nuance", "quality" etc are the same, the "Q" and "U" are pronounced differently phonetically, written in different phonetic transcriptions.

The phonetic alphabet of 'qu' in 'nuance' /ˈnjuːɑːns/ is '/juː/'

The phonetic alphabet of 'qu' in 'quarrel /ˈkwɒrəl/ is '/wɒ/'

The phonetic alphabet of 'qu' in 'quality' /ˈkwɒləti/ is '/wɒ/'


There is no 'qu' in 'nuance. There are no IPA symbols /u:/ or /a:/. The word is pronounced /njuäns/ or /nuäns/
The Antimoon IPA chart you have is an easily-typed version for normal English sounds. It is not the full IPA. Antimoon have made /ä/ look like /a:/ and /ʉ/ look like /u:/ because that is easier to type on a British or American keyboard.

Yes "quarrel" is pronounced /ˈkwɒrəl/ (the 'qu' becomes /kw/ - that is the normal phonetic symbolisation of the two sounds)
"Quality" is also pronounced with exactly the same 'qu' - /kw/ sound (the vowel sounds for 'i' and 'y' can change slightly depending on accent, but /ˈkwɒləti/ is approximately right.



Wyrd bið ful aræd - bull!
Romany
Posted: Sunday, December 24, 2017 10:31:42 AM
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Coop: -

Phoenetics and linguistics are other, specialised, branches of English. They are disciplines (subjects) on their own. It takes years of study - took me 5 years (as an English speaker!) to qualify - to learn about them.

You said in another thread you had never heard of phoenetics before. We have also seen that you don't know what the symbols mean, or what sounds they represent. So trying to discuss them or learn from them, is utterly useless.

ONCE AGAIN: there are MANY sites you can go to, to listen and learn about phoenetics. Sites run by world-renowned language experts. If you want to learn that side of things, you MUST study it. For ages. But, unless you find out what phoenetics are and how they sound, forget about it for now. All that will do is confuse you forever about how English sounds. (And telling native speakers they don't know how "bed" and "set" are pronounced, is also rather rude!)
A cooperator
Posted: Wednesday, December 27, 2017 8:18:31 AM

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Drag0nspeaker wrote:

This link shows you the International Phonetic Alphabet.
It also has sounds.

The sounds of /e/ and /ɛ/ are very similar. I have heard 'exaggerate' with both of these sounds - I have NEVER heard it with the /ɪ/ sound. I guess some dictionaries show one dialect and other dictionaries show another - but I have no idea where people say 'Igzadgereit'.


Thanks a lot, both of you, Drag0nspeaker, and Romany.

Have you listened to how online Longman pronounces the beginning of "exaggerate" and "example". I sent you the two links before.
1)Online Longman Dictionary of Contemporary English expressed about the sound of the beginning of "exaggerate" as "/ɪ/" ex‧ag‧ge‧rate /ɪɡˈzædʒəreɪt/
Also, the sound of the beginning of "example" as "/ɪ/" /ɪɡˈzɑːmpəl $ ɪɡˈzæm-/ - I.e. the sound of the beginning of "exaggerate" and "example" is /ɪ/ - it is the sound of the vowel in 'bid' /bɪd/ , and 'sit'/sɪt/

Drag0nspeaker wrote:
Quote:


Quote:
Not always the sound of the vowel as in bed(noun) /bed/ and 'set' /set/ is expressed with the phonetic transaction "/e/".
Sometimes it is expressed with "/ə/" as in 'happen' '/hæpən/'.

No - 'bed' and 'set' are never pronounced /bəd/ and /sət/.
They are pronounced /bed/ and /set/ or /bɛd/ and /sɛt/.


Drag0nspeaker,
Let me say it in other words.
You agree with me all the following words have the vowel letter "e":
Bed, set, happen, degree, delete.
But, the "e" in "bed" and "set" is pronounced as /e/. However, in "happen" /hæpəns/ is pronounced as /ə/. However, in "degree" /dɪˈɡriː/ is pronounced as "/ɪ/". However, in "delete" dɪˈliːt/ is pronounced as /ɪ/ and as /iː/

Must the "e" be pronounced as /e/ as the same in "bed, set" if the word has one syllable and the "e" is located in the center/middle????

As a result, if the same vowel letter "e" has different sound and differnt phonetic transcription, then how to know spell out then. Must I memorize them.
*****
In my Arabic language, I don't never ever memorise any words. If I want to spell out/write down a word, then I write it according to the sounds of letters I have heard.
The most difficult thing in English is while spelling out a word which have some letters silent, such as colleague, mosque, mesquite /meˈskiːt/


Drag0nspeaker wrote:

You have the Longman online. Listen to the words 'bid' and 'bed' - then listen to 'exaggerate'.
The initial sound of 'exaggerate' is VERY different from the vowel sound in 'bid' - and very similar (almost identical) to the sound in 'bed'. Listen to them.


I have heard them, but the issue as stated in my first part Longman pronounces and expresses the "exaggerate" as /ɪɡˈzædʒəreɪt/


Drag0nspeaker wrote:

Quote:
I really looked at the standard International Phonetic Alphabet, but I found no phonetic transcription as '/ju:/' where this phonetic transcription is written and pronounced phonetically in some English words.
Nuance /ˈnjuːɑːns/

You will not find an IPA symbol /ju:/ - the vowel sound of 'ua' in the word 'nuance' is usually said as /j/, /u/ and /ä/ - three sounds; one approximant consonant and two vowels in a diphthong. /njuäns/


But, Longman pronounces it as /ˈnjuːɑːns/. It isn't as /ˈnjuːäns/



Drag0nspeaker wrote:

Quote:
Besides, although the "Q" and "U" in the spelt letters in "quarrel", "nuance", "quality" etc are the same, the "Q" and "U" are pronounced differently phonetically, written in different phonetic transcriptions.

The phonetic alphabet of 'qu' in 'nuance' /ˈnjuːɑːns/ is '/juː/'

The phonetic alphabet of 'qu' in 'quarrel /ˈkwɒrəl/ is '/wɒ/'

The phonetic alphabet of 'qu' in 'quality' /ˈkwɒləti/ is '/wɒ/'


There is no 'qu' in 'nuance. There are no IPA symbols /u:/ or /a:/. The word is pronounced /njuäns/ or /nuäns/
The Antimoon IPA chart you have is an easily-typed version for normal English sounds. It is not the full IPA. Antimoon have made /ä/ look like /a:/ and /ʉ/ look like /u:/ because that is easier to type on a British or American keyboard.

Yes "quarrel" is pronounced /ˈkwɒrəl/ (the 'qu' becomes /kw/ - that is the normal phonetic symbolisation of the two sounds)
"Quality" is also pronounced with exactly the same 'qu' - /kw/ sound (the vowel sounds for 'i' and 'y' can change slightly depending on accent, but /ˈkwɒləti/ is approximately right.


I made a typo with saying 'qu' in 'nuance'
However, what I wanted is as follows:
"u" and "a" in the spelt letters in "quarrel", "nuance", "quality" etc are the same, the "u" and "a" are pronounced differently phonetically, written in different phonetic transcriptions.

The phonetic alphabet of 'ua' in 'nuance' /ˈnjuːɑːns/ is '/juː/'

The phonetic alphabet of 'ua' in 'quarrel /ˈkwɒrəl/ is '/wɒ/'

The phonetic alphabet of 'ua' in 'quality' /ˈkwɒləti/ is '/wɒ/'


Whoever doesn't own what he promises to those who do not deserve must not promise it.
Romany
Posted: Wednesday, December 27, 2017 10:04:38 AM
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Location: Brighton, England, United Kingdom

Coop - your last question proved a point we all keep repeating: you MUST have the basics before you start going off into specialised areas.

One of the basic things one learns about the letter "q" in English is that it MUST be followed by a "u" when written in English. One writes 'q' with a "u". The "u" is not pronounced. Each time you say a word with "qu" in it the sound is "kw". THAT'S the pattern.
That's how it always is.

But unless there is a 'q' in front of it, that has no relation to the fact that "u" is a vowel with its own sounds. And yep, sorry, one does have to learn them. Preferably before one starts actually using English!

Please, PLEASE, think about what we're saying. ALL languages are complicated when not used to them. English can be massively complicated. That's why, when trying to teach it, there is a basic progression: one starts with Step 1: sounds. (Some English sounds are difficult for learners). Only when that's clear does one move on to the next step - words. Step 2. and so one goes: learning each step and building on that knowledge to go on to the next one. That's how all language tuition starts.

But you are just jumping from Step 10 to Step 15, and then back to Step 2, then into Step 20.....PLUS you argue with us and tell us we aren't correct - you are. You are making this so long, and so difficult, and such an impossible task.
dave argo
Posted: Friday, December 29, 2017 2:02:48 AM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 11/10/2016
Posts: 214
Neurons: 65,013
Romany wrote:

Coop: -

Phoenetics and linguistics are other, specialised, branches of English. They are disciplines (subjects) on their own. It takes years of study - took me 5 years (as an English speaker!) to qualify - to learn about them.

You said in another thread you had never heard of phoenetics before. We have also seen that you don't know what the symbols mean, or what sounds they represent. So trying to discuss them or learn from them, is utterly useless.

ONCE AGAIN: there are MANY sites you can go to, to listen and learn about phoenetics. Sites run by world-renowned language experts. If you want to learn that side of things, you MUST study it. For ages. But, unless you find out what phoenetics are and how they sound, forget about it for now. All that will do is confuse you forever about how English sounds. (And telling native speakers they don't know how "bed" and "set" are pronounced, is also rather rude!)


Romany: Please give us a definition of "phoenetics". You have used the term four times in your post of December 24th. We trust that after your long studies of phoenetics
you might give us a better definition than this site: http://www.definitions.net/definition/phoenetics
"We couldn't find a direct definition for the term phoenetics.
Maybe you were looking for one of these terms?

pain in the ass, painted daisy, paints, pandas, Panotitis, Pantagogue, pantech, panties, pants, pantyhose, pavo muticus, paymentus, peanut sauce, peanuts, pen-and-wash, penates, pendejo, pendice, pends, penitis, pentacoccous, pentadic, pentakis, pentakis-, pentas
... or search for phoenetics inside other dictionary definitions."


Above all, why chastise a fellow member as you have done?
georgew
Posted: Friday, December 29, 2017 4:16:56 PM
Rank: Member

Joined: 8/13/2016
Posts: 95
Neurons: 853
A cooperator wrote:

In my Arabic language, I don't never ever memorise any words. If I want to spell out/write down a word, then I write it according to the sounds of letters I have heard.
The most difficult thing in English is while spelling out a word which have some letters silent, such as colleague, mosque, mesquite /meˈskiːt/


Coop -

You wrote "I don't never ever" ... That usage is incorrect, and it illustrates your frequent usage of "never ever" where "never" or "ever" alone is appropriate as it almost always is.
"Never ever" is very seldom appropriate in ordinary English usage.

This is another example of an error that would be caught early in person-to-person English instruction. It also shows the importance of understanding the meaning of the things you write, rather than grammar analysis or theory.
Fyfardens
Posted: Friday, December 29, 2017 6:44:51 PM
Rank: Member

Joined: 12/16/2017
Posts: 333
Neurons: 4,722
There is no exact standard pronunciation of unstressed syllables in English, in British English, or even in Standard Southern British English.

John Wells, in his Longman Pronunciation Dictionary (3rd edition, 2008) gives the most common pronunciations of the first syllable of the word (from most to least common) in British English as /ɪgz/, /egz/, /əgz/, /ɪkz/, /ekz/, /əkz/.

Peter Roach et al in their updating of Daniel Jones's English Pronouncing Dictionary (16th edition, 2003) give these pronunciations as /ɪgz/, /egz/, /ɪks/, /eks/.

So, although these experienced phoneticians agree that /ɪ/ is more common than /e/, and /g/ more common than /k/, they don't agree on other things. Wells, for example feels that there is a schwa variant of the first vowel, and does not note unvoiced /s/ after /k/.

Note that the phoneme /e/ in these transcriptions is the same sound as that represented by the phonemic symbol /ɛ/ in Oxford dictionaries. This sound, the sound of the vowel in bed has a quality in Standard Southern British English between Cardinal Vowels 2, [ɛ], and 3, [e], being generally slightly closer to the former.






I speak British English (standard southern, slightly dated).
Drag0nspeaker
Posted: Saturday, December 30, 2017 11:19:03 AM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 9/12/2011
Posts: 30,630
Neurons: 181,548
Location: Livingston, Scotland, United Kingdom
dave argo wrote:
Romany: Please give us a definition of "phoenetics". You have used the term four times in your post of December 24th.

Hi Dave - There is a major bug on this site at the moment and very few posts are actually arriving properly.
I know Romany has been tring to post answers and cannot get through.

"Phoenetic" is an alternative spelling of 'phonetic', used in the main by academicians - as I found when I checked for books using the word. Fiction books (which tend to use informal "normal" English) always use the 'phonetic' spelling.

PHOENETIC. PRONUNCIATION. GUIDE. In the chapters of this Study Guide you will find - Microbiology (collected essays) isbn=0132300877

. . . it became clear that my search was not a spelling one but a "phoenetic" one. - A History of the Clans Jerry Allstott

As attested in Ranke there should also be a 't' phoenetic compliment which would go - Human Activity in the Southern Eastern Desert of Egypt During the Pharaonic Period: An Interdisciplinary Research Project Russell Dale Rothe

Wyrd bið ful aræd - bull!
almo 1
Posted: Saturday, December 30, 2017 11:20:48 AM
Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 10/16/2016
Posts: 1,253
Neurons: 5,715
Location: Fussa, Tokyo, Japan



dave argo wrote:
Romany wrote:

Coop: -

Phoenetics and linguistics are other, specialised, branches of English. They are disciplines (subjects) on their own. It takes years of study - took me 5 years (as an English speaker!) to qualify - to learn about them.

You said in another thread you had never heard of phoenetics before. We have also seen that you don't know what the symbols mean, or what sounds they represent. So trying to discuss them or learn from them, is utterly useless.

ONCE AGAIN: there are MANY sites you can go to, to listen and learn about phoenetics. Sites run by world-renowned language experts. If you want to learn that side of things, you MUST study it. For ages. But, unless you find out what phoenetics are and how they sound, forget about it for now. All that will do is confuse you forever about how English sounds. (And telling native speakers they don't know how "bed" and "set" are pronounced, is also rather rude!)


Romany: Please give us a definition of "phoenetics". You have used the term four times in your post of December 24th. We trust that after your long studies of phoenetics
you might give us a better definition than this site: http://www.definitions.net/definition/phoenetics
"We couldn't find a direct definition for the term phoenetics.
Maybe you were looking for one of these terms?

pain in the ass, painted daisy, paints, pandas, Panotitis, Pantagogue, pantech, panties, pants, pantyhose, pavo muticus, paymentus, peanut sauce, peanuts, pen-and-wash, penates, pendejo, pendice, pends, penitis, pentacoccous, pentadic, pentakis, pentakis-, pentas
... or search for phoenetics inside other dictionary definitions."


Above all, why chastise a fellow member as you have done?











I will never ever forget.






almo 1
Posted: Saturday, December 30, 2017 11:49:12 AM
Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 10/16/2016
Posts: 1,253
Neurons: 5,715
Location: Fussa, Tokyo, Japan


















Drag0nspeaker
Posted: Saturday, December 30, 2017 12:22:58 PM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 9/12/2011
Posts: 30,630
Neurons: 181,548
Location: Livingston, Scotland, United Kingdom
almo 1 wrote:
I will never ever forget.

Yes - this is the correct usage - a positive 'I will' followed by the stressed 'never ever'.

A Cooperator used "I don't never ever . . ." which is incorrect - a negative 'I don't' followed by 'never ever'.

The correct versions would be 'I never ever . . .' or 'I don't ever . . .'




Wyrd bið ful aræd - bull!
georgew
Posted: Saturday, December 30, 2017 2:12:49 PM
Rank: Member

Joined: 8/13/2016
Posts: 95
Neurons: 853
dave argo wrote:
[quote=Romany]

Above all, why chastise a fellow member as you have done?


Chastisement is in the eye of the beholder, so why did you see it in Romany's polite and constructive post?

English learners come to this forum to learn. Romany's posts have been valuable in serving that purpose.
dave argo
Posted: Saturday, December 30, 2017 3:35:44 PM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 11/10/2016
Posts: 214
Neurons: 65,013
Drag0nspeaker wrote:
dave argo wrote:
Romany: Please give us a definition of "phoenetics". You have used the term four times in your post of December 24th.

Hi Dave - There is a major bug on this site at the moment and very few posts are actually arriving properly.
I know Romany has been tring to post answers and cannot get through.

"Phoenetic" is an alternative spelling of 'phonetic', used in the main by academicians - as I found when I checked for books using the word. Fiction books (which tend to use informal "normal" English) always use the 'phonetic' spelling.

PHOENETIC. PRONUNCIATION. GUIDE. In the chapters of this Study Guide you will find - Microbiology (collected essays) isbn=0132300877

. . . it became clear that my search was not a spelling one but a "phoenetic" one. - A History of the Clans Jerry Allstott

As attested in Ranke there should also be a 't' phoenetic compliment which would go - Human Activity in the Southern Eastern Desert of Egypt During the Pharaonic Period: An Interdisciplinary Research Project Russell Dale Rothe


Thank you, DragOnspeaker. I asked for a definition of "phoenetics" from Romany.
Very kind of you to jump in. But if "phoenetic" is an alternative spelling of "phonetic", as you say, shouldn't that be acknowledged
in a dictionary of the English language? Cambridge, Oxford, neither accept the term "phoenetics", nor mention it as an alternative.
Is it because academicians have not been consulted?Think


dave argo
Posted: Saturday, December 30, 2017 4:12:09 PM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 11/10/2016
Posts: 214
Neurons: 65,013
georgew wrote:
dave argo wrote:
[quote=Romany]

Above all, why chastise a fellow member as you have done?


Chastisement is in the eye of the beholder, so why did you see it in Romany's polite and constructive post?

English learners come to this forum to learn. Romany's posts have been valuable in serving that purpose.


georgew: Are you kidding? How would you feel, as an English learner who came to this forum to learn, being yelled at
by selective use of capital letters and by being told that you had done something rather rude, without a shred of evidence?
That poster, A Cooperator, had had a conversation with two other members on a subject of interest to him/her. Neither
of them complained that they had been told anything rudely. Romany's post was, however, anything but constructive or
educative on the subject of A Cooperator's inquiry, when she chose to intervene.
This is a classic example of how quarrels get started here, and I will have none of it with you.
Fyfardens
Posted: Saturday, December 30, 2017 6:04:28 PM
Rank: Member

Joined: 12/16/2017
Posts: 333
Neurons: 4,722
dave argo wrote:
Romany's post was, however, anything but constructive or
educative on the subject of A Cooperator's inquiry, when she chose to intervene.
This is a classic example of how quarrels get started here, and I will have none of it with you.


Your own intervention has rather served to keep this going. Might it not be an idea to leave discussion of this to the people actually involved?

I speak British English (standard southern, slightly dated).
Fyfardens
Posted: Sunday, December 31, 2017 2:45:57 AM
Rank: Member

Joined: 12/16/2017
Posts: 333
Neurons: 4,722
Drag0nspeaker wrote:

"Phoenetic" is an alternative spelling of 'phonetic', used in the main by academicians - as I found when I checked for books using the word.




As someone who has studied, and occasionally taught, phonetics intermittently over the past fifty years, I have to say that I have never seen the 'phoenetic' spelling except as a typographical error. I suspect that the versions you found, and Romany's versions, fall into that category.

The 'phoenetic' version is recorded in none of the 129 dictionaries to be found at www.onelook.com.

I speak British English (standard southern, slightly dated).
A cooperator
Posted: Wednesday, January 10, 2018 6:18:09 PM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 10/27/2011
Posts: 2,933
Neurons: 10,901
Location: Ḩāḑírah, Hadramawt, Yemen
Drag0nspeaker wrote:
Hmmm Think

Ah! - The sound I use at the beginning of "exaggerate" is /ɛ/ - the sound of the vowel in 'bed' and 'set'.
/ɪ/ is very different - it is the sound in 'bid' and 'sit'.

As it shows in my Oxford Dictionary /ɛɡˈzadʒəreɪt/ - I have personally never heard anyone say "igzaggerate".

Drag0nspeakere
During my years of studying English, in primary school, secondary school, university, and some institutions, I had never ever been taught the pronunciation, or the phonetic transactions of written words, and the phonetic symbols of written letters at all until now. We were taught by teachers through reciting pronunciation from teachers. But, almost all of them were not really good in pronouncing English words phonetically correctly. Then, they stocked wrong pronunciation for some English words in our brains while we're much younger. As you may know that "Learning is, as small as you're, as engraving on stone. However, when getting a little older, it is harder than engraving on the stone". What we learnt wrongly will be hard to fix them by the correct ones.

Take this for instance, we're used to pronouncing "/e/" in the following words as sound as sound /ɪ/ in the following words:
"Best, bed, set, student, exaggerate" However, the right one is "/e/" or /ɛ/

Also, we're used to pronouncing the "/o/" as "/ɒ/" in the "today"
However, the correct one is /ə/ /təˈdeɪ/

However, this /ɒ/ is the sound of "o" in
boss1 /bɒs $ bɒːs/
Pocket1 /ˈpɒkɪt $ ˈpɑː-/


Finally: you're right that the sound of vowel letter "e" is expressed by a phonetic symbol /e/ or /ɛ/
While looking up words in my Oxford dictionary, and Longman, I have never come across such /ɛ/
I only found "/e/".
Both dictionaries show:
"Bed /bed/, set /set/", however, exaggerate /ɪɡˈzædʒəreɪt/.


Today while trying to show the phonetic transactions for a phrase in an app called Elsa speak, I came across the /ɛ/
in the phrase "In your best interest", it is the sound of "e" in "best".


However, with the same app 'Elsa speak', when trying to look up "exaggerate", "bed", "set"
I found the following:
Bed /bed/
Set /set/

However,
Exaggerate /ɪɡˈzædʒəreɪt/



Whoever doesn't own what he promises to those who do not deserve must not promise it.
Fyfardens
Posted: Wednesday, January 10, 2018 6:33:03 PM
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Posts: 333
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This lack of consistency suggests that you can't rely on the app.

I speak British English (standard southern, slightly dated).
georgew
Posted: Wednesday, January 10, 2018 6:47:29 PM
Rank: Member

Joined: 8/13/2016
Posts: 95
Neurons: 853
A cooperator wrote:
[quote=Drag0nspeaker]Hmmm Think

Ah! - The sound I use at the beginning of "exaggerate" is /ɛ/ - the sound of the vowel in 'bed' and 'set'.
/ɪ/ is very different - it is the sound in 'bid' and 'sit'.

However, with the same app 'Elsa speak', when trying looking up "exaggerate", "bed", "set"
I found the following:
Bed /bed/
Set /set/
However,
Exaggerate /ɪɡˈzædʒəreɪt/



This is a toy. Some would call it "a solution in search of a problem".

Whatever did people do before these high-tech toys arrived? Why, they relied upon face-to-face instruction of course.

Coop, you would learn English faster and better with face-to-face instruction. You say it's no good and you keep ignoring me on this point, but there are millions of people today who used that trued-and-true method to learn a second language. And with it, you won't have the difficulties you just posted about above.
A cooperator
Posted: Wednesday, January 10, 2018 7:18:00 PM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 10/27/2011
Posts: 2,933
Neurons: 10,901
Location: Ḩāḑírah, Hadramawt, Yemen
Fyfardens wrote:
This lack of consistency suggests that you can't rely on the app.


Yes, while looking up words in my Oxford dictionary, and Longman Dictionary for Contemporary English, I have never come across such /ɛ/ I only found "/e/".
Also, both dictionaries show:
"Bed /bed/, set /set/" , however, exaggerate /ɪɡˈzædʒəreɪt/, example /ɪɡˈzɑːmpəl $ ɪɡˈzæm-/

1)Online Longman Dictionary of Contemporary English stated the sound of the beginning of "exaggerate" as "/ɪ/" ex‧ag‧ge‧rate /ɪɡˈzædʒəreɪt/
Also, the sound of the beginning of "example" as "/ɪ/" /ɪɡˈzɑːmpəl $ ɪɡˈzæm-/. I.e. the sound of the beginning of " "exaggerate" , "example" is /ɪ/" is the sound of the vowel in 'bid' /bɪd/ , and 'sit'/sɪt/



Whoever doesn't own what he promises to those who do not deserve must not promise it.
Fyfardens
Posted: Wednesday, January 10, 2018 7:35:39 PM
Rank: Member

Joined: 12/16/2017
Posts: 333
Neurons: 4,722
A cooperator wrote:

while looking up words in my Oxford dictionary, and Longman Dictionary for Contemporary English, I have never come across such /ɛ/ I only found "/e/".


Some dictionaries use one symbol for this phoneme, some use the other. The majority of British dictionaries, grammars, and English course books use /e/. It's a pity that different people use different symbols, but it's not tragic.So long as they say somewhere that it represents the vowel in 'bed', or some similar word, we know what sound they are talking about. A phonetician will know that, depending on the dialect of the person saying 'bed' the sound will be somewhere in the region of cardinal vowel [e] and cardinal vowel [ɛ]. In some dialects it may become a diphthong, with a glide towards [ɘ] or [ɪ].

I speak British English (standard southern, slightly dated).
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