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Fear mongering Options
Listening . . .
Posted: Wednesday, December 20, 2017 12:52:09 AM

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March Hare wrote:
Listening . . . wrote:
progpen wrote:
So white middle class male Americans don't tell lies, they just tell truths that are not yet the truth and may never become the truth but are not yet lies. I'm thinking Shroedinger's cat would be able to figure this one out.


Prog,
For someone who doesn’t like racists and unequal treatment, you certainly seem to blast the white male.Shame on you


If a number of people who happen to be Muslims are terrorists, does that give people the right to label all Muslims as terrorists? If yes, then a number of white males lying through their teeth also gives people the right to call all white males liars.

Generalizations are never a good thing, about any group of the population, because they are at the root of racism, sexism, and other such unpleasant -isms. My guess is that this is exactly what Progpen is trying to show here, by reversing the racism so that you would recognize it more easily.


Yes. I knew exactly what Prog was trying to accomplish. Why did he suspect I would recognize white male as the reverse? That is the question and the reason for my retort.
Listening . . .
Posted: Wednesday, December 20, 2017 1:03:45 AM

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Joined: 6/30/2011
Posts: 956
Neurons: 3,912
progpen wrote:
March Hare wrote:
Listening . . . wrote:
progpen wrote:
So white middle class male Americans don't tell lies, they just tell truths that are not yet the truth and may never become the truth but are not yet lies. I'm thinking Shroedinger's cat would be able to figure this one out.


Prog,
For someone who doesn’t like racists and unequal treatment, you certainly seem to blast the white male.Shame on you


If a number of people who happen to be Muslims are terrorists, does that give people the right to label all Muslims as terrorists? If yes, then a number of white males lying through their teeth also gives people the right to call all white males liars.

Generalizations are never a good thing, about any group of the population, because they are at the root of racism, sexism, and other such unpleasant -isms. My guess is that this is exactly what Progpen is trying to show here, by reversing the racism so that you would recognize it more easily.


Thank you March Hare. Yes, that is what I'm doing but Listening doesn't seem to catch on to that sort of thing, so I then resort to being direct and he ignores me. Ah well, what can you do?


I am not a “he.”
progpen
Posted: Wednesday, December 20, 2017 6:07:06 AM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 10/2/2015
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Location: Minneapolis, Minnesota, United States
Listening . . . wrote:
March Hare wrote:
Listening . . . wrote:
progpen wrote:
So white middle class male Americans don't tell lies, they just tell truths that are not yet the truth and may never become the truth but are not yet lies. I'm thinking Shroedinger's cat would be able to figure this one out.


Prog,
For someone who doesn’t like racists and unequal treatment, you certainly seem to blast the white male.Shame on you


If a number of people who happen to be Muslims are terrorists, does that give people the right to label all Muslims as terrorists? If yes, then a number of white males lying through their teeth also gives people the right to call all white males liars.

Generalizations are never a good thing, about any group of the population, because they are at the root of racism, sexism, and other such unpleasant -isms. My guess is that this is exactly what Progpen is trying to show here, by reversing the racism so that you would recognize it more easily.


Yes. I knew exactly what Prog was trying to accomplish. Why did he suspect I would recognize white male as the reverse? That is the question and the reason for my retort.


I knew you would see white middle class males in the US as the reverse because of many other threads that you have participated in here. Past performance "is" an indicator of future activity.

Nolite te bastardes carborundorum
will
Posted: Wednesday, December 20, 2017 8:28:06 AM
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Listening... wrote:
I thank you for the gesture. I fear, however, you might be the one to wave the white flag at the end of it all. ; )

No white flag in sight, but I think I’ve said about all I need to and will probably only be repeating myself from here on.

Listening... wrote:
I suspect the western side would prefer to live in harmony...

True, and so would vast majority from the ‘other’ side – it is a myth that ‘they’ don’t.

And, fortunately, Trump and the USA do not represent the ‘western side’ by any stretch of the imagination – Trump as leader of the Free World is also just part of the ‘us’ and ‘them’ myth you’ve bought into. Trump is no more representative of western beliefs and culture than ISIS is representative of Islamic beliefs and culture.

Listening... wrote:
I don’t think Trump should Tweet. His ability to communicate lacks clarity and, sadly, refinement.

Such astonishingly poor judgement doesn’t bode well for more serious matters, does it? d'oh!

Listening... wrote:
I don’t think his tweets are helpful to the situation but I also don’t think they have substantial impact on the decisions of terrorists to continue to terrorize.

Had Trump not retweeted those videos, they would have circulated around a small group and likely made no substantial impact on their already bigoted prejudices. For the rational majority the global exposure was possibly a good opportunity to expose the lie for what it was. For the small group of Islamic extremists the hateful lie will have substantially reinforced their bigoted prejudice against their western enemies; that undoubtedly increases the risk to all of us.

Listening... wrote:
Obama was an outstanding orator and chose his words carefully - there was neither a decrease in terrorist attacks nor a diminished level of fear or anger.

I don’t know about a decrease during Obama’s tenure, but I think many people believe the situation is currently escalating, that was certainly the narrative from Trump during his run for office and since being elected, and the point of my original post.

Listening... wrote:
I wholeheartedly love this idea. Peace, compassion, unity, hope, rationality, and truth. If only the human condition didn’t screw these up so badly, compassion, hope, rationality, and truth would (in theory) bring peace and unity. When, in human history, has there been such a utopian existence? I suspect you will say there hasn’t but it’s the right direction to strive toward.

In general humankind – that’s ‘us’ and ‘them’ – currently lives in a era of unprecedented peace and harmony, due to a combination of a pragmatic understanding of the cost of conflict – particularly mutual annihilation – and the benefit of interdependent global systems.

In the year following 9/11, despite all the talk of war and terrorism, the average person was more likely to take their own life than be killed by a terrorist or soldier, or fall victim to any act of violence at the hand of another.

Peace is not just an ideal to strive for, it’s already the reality for the vast majority. You don’t have to buy into fear-mongering. If you have to be afraid I suggest you focus on the fact that you are considerably more at risk from an American on a gun rampage than a Muslim jihadist… or a thug from the Netherlands.

Religious extremists, popular nationalism and irrational divisive dogma make up a small dwindling minority. They have experienced a disproportionately visible resurgence in the last decade or two, due to the global reach of media and in particular the internet, but we don’t have to follow that agenda.

There is no long term future outside of cooperation within the global community. When Trump chooses to actively provoke North Korea despite repeated warnings from pretty much the entire international community, or when he decided, again against the grain of international diplomatic efforts, to recognise Jerusalem as Israel’s capital (while simultaneously signing the waiver to keep the US embassy where it is, confirming the move is about as likely as the building of wall to keep those Mexican rapists out), or when he promotes lies that promote harmful stereotypes, he does so purely for short term (mainly personal) political gain.





will
Posted: Wednesday, December 20, 2017 8:32:44 AM
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progpen wrote:
Yes, that is what I'm doing but Listening doesn't seem to catch on to that sort of thing, so I then resort to being direct and he ignores me. Ah well, what can you do?


It's worth considering that Listening... might be ignoring you for an entirely different reason. I would hate to think FounDit believes I ignore his arguments because I'm unable to 'catch on'. Think


.
Hope123
Posted: Wednesday, December 20, 2017 10:45:16 AM

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Location: Burlington, Ontario, Canada


Back to question in original post - "The question is how the rational world deals with this kind of hate filled fear mongering when it come direct from the White House."

My two questions concerning how to deal with fear mongering were ignored as well.

One - if Twitter shut down the account from which Trump retweeted, why was his account not shut down or at least warned publicly? His retweet was more damaging as Will mentions. So - should Twitter shut down accounts of retweeters of the accounts they originally shut down? What about Instagram? Should we be looking at more control of all social media? Apparently the Russians did more damage with more targeting of Instagram than on the other systems.

Two - How does one deal with fear mongering in the media. It is on both sides, but Fox News outdid themselves by suggesting the Russia investigation into meddling with a democratic process that happened to catch up the president's family and his campaign - through their own greed and stupidity I might add - is a coup by the Democrats. i.e. liberals.

Unless he has not seen the question, I will assume that Foudit only wishes to attack us - in his grouping of us as "them meaning liberals" - and not discuss the subject as a whole.

And I would have been interested to hear Listening's views as from previous posts she seems to have the same goals as I do, just a different way to achieve them. She wants a more stable world and security for her children and their children, as do I - and the rest of us here too.

If we compare the violence and cruelty of just a hundred years or so ago to what the world is like now, we can see that humankind has learned somewhat that cooperation with others works better than killing them in the awful consequences of war. But we still have a long way to go as there are those in minority who are preying on the majority.

When that minority becomes erroneoulsy and unfairly representative of the majority, through generalization and promotion to leadership of divisive people, it becomes "we vs them" as Will says. And that just "ain't" working for us.

It is not the strongest of the species that survive, nor the most intelligent, but the one most responsive to change.
almo 1
Posted: Wednesday, December 20, 2017 7:58:33 PM
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Joined: 10/16/2016
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Location: Fussa, Tokyo, Japan



Of such great powers or beings there may be conceivably a survival...a survival of a hugely remote period when...consciousness was manifested, perhaps, in shapes and forms long since withdrawn before the tide of advancing humanity...forms of which poetry and legend alone have caught a flying memory and called them gods, monsters, mythical beings of all sorts and kinds...

--Algernon Blackwood



The most merciful thing in the world, I think, is the inability of the human mind to correlate all its contents. We live on a placid island of ignorance in the midst of black seas of infinity, and it was not meant that we should voyage far. The sciences, each straining in its own direction, have hitherto harmed us little; but some day the piecing together of dissociated knowledge will open up such terrifying vistas of reality, and of our frightful position therein, that we shall either go mad from the revelation or flee from the light into the peace and safety of a new dark age.

--H.P. Lovecraft
progpen
Posted: Wednesday, December 20, 2017 9:21:43 PM

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Location: Minneapolis, Minnesota, United States
will wrote:
progpen wrote:
Yes, that is what I'm doing but Listening doesn't seem to catch on to that sort of thing, so I then resort to being direct and he ignores me. Ah well, what can you do?


It's worth considering that Listening... might be ignoring you for an entirely different reason. I would hate to think FounDit believes I ignore his arguments because I'm unable to 'catch on'. Think


Thanks Will, I know it hasn't been about being "unable to catch on" and thanks for calling me out on that.

@Listening, I apologize for putting that out there. Personal pot shots are not called for.

Nolite te bastardes carborundorum
almo 1
Posted: Thursday, December 21, 2017 9:12:02 AM
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Location: Fussa, Tokyo, Japan
Everybody must have some reason
to do something.(e.g. ignore, shout, or lie, pretend or ...).
Listening . . .
Posted: Thursday, December 21, 2017 2:07:59 PM

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Joined: 6/30/2011
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progpen wrote:
will wrote:
progpen wrote:
Yes, that is what I'm doing but Listening doesn't seem to catch on to that sort of thing, so I then resort to being direct and he ignores me. Ah well, what can you do?


It's worth considering that Listening... might be ignoring you for an entirely different reason. I would hate to think FounDit believes I ignore his arguments because I'm unable to 'catch on'. Think


Thanks Will, I know it hasn't been about being "unable to catch on" and thanks for calling me out on that.

@Listening, I apologize for putting that out there. Personal pot shots are not called for.


Thank you, Prog. No hard feelings.
Listening . . .
Posted: Thursday, December 21, 2017 2:11:02 PM

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Hope, I’m not ignoring your post. I am very busy with holiday preparation and get-togethers! Dancing
Hope123
Posted: Thursday, December 21, 2017 6:42:17 PM

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Joined: 3/23/2015
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Location: Burlington, Ontario, Canada
No problem, Listening. It is not worth the effort, anyhow.


Hope you have a great holiday with all your family and friends! Merry Christmas.

We are all ready. It helps when they are old enough to request gift cards to Lululemon and Best Buy and all you need is something for under the tree.

Plus they are doing the cooking this year. All I have to make is enough of my famous buns for twenty people and the bread machine makes that easy.

If there is no future thread to say it, I will add here now - "the best holiday wishes to all TFDers".

It is not the strongest of the species that survive, nor the most intelligent, but the one most responsive to change.
almo 1
Posted: Friday, December 22, 2017 7:28:58 AM
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Location: Fussa, Tokyo, Japan







Re-Animator - based on the H. P. Lovecraft novella





Trailer




philips daughter
Posted: Friday, December 22, 2017 8:56:39 AM

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Hi Almo. What attracts you to Lovecraft? It seems his earliest works were “dripping racism,” as one critic wrote. They say it is a cult favorite of the alt-right geek community. Are these your sentiments, too? I was amazed when I read up on this phenomenon. I remember reading some of his works back in ‘60s but, I didn’t realize the racism at the time.
almo 1
Posted: Friday, December 22, 2017 7:08:06 PM
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Joined: 10/16/2016
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Location: Fussa, Tokyo, Japan
philips daughter wrote:
They say it is a cult favorite of the alt-right geek community.







I didn't know about that,
and I have no idea what alt-right is.(I'm going to check it out).

Actually I was an apolitical person until recently(2007, to be precise).



Listening . . .
Posted: Saturday, December 23, 2017 12:00:03 PM

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After some thought, a re-read of this thread, and watching this https://www.memri.org/tv/antisemitic-sermon-jersey-city-imam-aymen-elkasaby, think the simple answer to your question is “No. Fear mongering is not ok.” I believe this regardless of who it is that promotes the (invalidated) fear. A person in a position of power has an exaggerated level of responsibility since the people under this position rely on the information presented as truth.

Something to consider and a lesson I have always tried to teach my kids is that being afraid is ok, but panic is not. The reason for this lesson is two-fold. Panic may incite a response or lack of response that could unnecessarily cause injury; also, the reason for the panic may not be as bad as what it originally appears.

I guess the next question is, how do we stop the panic?
Buzzito
Posted: Saturday, December 23, 2017 12:14:06 PM

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Location: Bensalem, Pennsylvania, United States

I could not finish your post beyond "(many) problems with Trump .... How negative a mindset. Besides watching/reading the news, what insights are you bringing to the table? Like everyone else, you don't receive the intelligence that our President is affordable, nor the counsel. On the world stage, we see what we are allowed to see. There is a problem with far-right and far-left groups here in the USA. And we are still a MAJOR player in world politics. Your view is limited as is mine, to what we can surmise from reports and the limited experiences we may have, with terrorism.

Trump, at ,east, stood up and called "radical terrorism" exactly what it is. Our previous Commander in Chief could not even do that. "Boogie" men are created by men, for various reasons. It is a function of human nature and of those in power to obfuscate and further their agenda. Don't sit there and state it is something that Trump is doing as if no other person in power does this. There are MANY here int he US who are neither insane nor fringe.

Long live Trump! Onward and upward, because he is putting words into action and looking out for US, the land of the free and the proud.




Romany wrote:

One of the (many) problems with Trump trying to play in the sandbox with the other kids, is that he has no concept of how the world works, let alone how other countries do.

While its dead easy to sow the panic, fear and hysteria that now grips America the man hasn't the nous to understand that what works in America works because of America's unique society. What works in France, Iran, Russia or, indeed the UK, works because of THEIR unique societies and history.

Trying to whip up the same sentiment towards Islam that he's spread through his own country, is never going to be easy in countries which have not only recovered and rebuilt after total devastation in world wars and invasions, but have lived with "terrorism" for centuries in many different forms.

While most world leaders have tacitly agreed to consider the USA a non-player on the world stage; while China is poised to dominate, Germany can gain more ascendancy, and other countries negotiate to fill in the gaps left behind by the lack of American participation...DT's megalomaniacal attempts to spread his evil influence to other developed countries stand out transparently.

As many sources on this side have reported: Trump has united Britain in a way recent politics and Brexit etc. had no chance of doing. Ironic: Trump likes to invent boogie-men and chimera to frighten people into submission and acceptance. What has happened is that he has made himself into the boogie-man now; and instead of just having to negotiate with one or two politicians, he has the entire country (Except for some equally insane fringe party of lunatics) united in ridicule and determination, against him.

He's revealed the full, abysmal and unplumbed depths of his ignorance and self-involvement. Not a single person capable of rational thought will ever give him the benefit of the doubt again. He's done.
Listening . . .
Posted: Saturday, December 23, 2017 12:14:44 PM

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Hope123 wrote:
No problem, Listening. It is not worth the effort, anyhow.


Hope you have a great holiday with all your family and friends! Merry Christmas.

We are all ready. It helps when they are old enough to request gift cards to Lululemon and Best Buy and all you need is something for under the tree.

Plus they are doing the cooking this year. All I have to make is enough of my famous buns for twenty people and the bread machine makes that easy.

If there is no future thread to say it, I will add here now - "the best holiday wishes to all TFDers".


Thank you, Hope! I love this time of year! It FEELS good! Lots of cheer, fun music, lights, shopping, cooking, laughs, ... and ends with a renewed hope for a healthy, happy, successful (better) welcome to a new year!
As often as there are disagreements in any forum, I am a firm believer that everyone on this earth wants the same things, at the most basic levels. We all love our children/our family, we all don’t want to be hungry or sick, and we all want to feel valued as human beings. To all those out there within the range of my voice - May you find (and give) peace to this world that is yours and mine
.
progpen
Posted: Saturday, December 23, 2017 12:34:53 PM

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Location: Minneapolis, Minnesota, United States
Buzzito wrote:

How negative a mindset.

That is exactly what fear mongering is. It is a negative mindset that breeds negative mindsets.

Buzzito wrote:
Trump, at least, stood up and called "radical terrorism" exactly what it is.

Calling the wrong thing "radical terrorism" and ignoring the actual radical terrorism that exists in the US is not an accomplishment.

Buzzito wrote:
There are MANY here int he US who are neither insane nor fringe.

We can at least agree on that.

Buzzito wrote:
Long live Trump!

Le Roi est mort! Vive le Roi! Is that closer to what you were trying to say? Because if so, I'd actually have to agree with you there as well. The current occupant of the White House is a prime example of the social inbreeding that has culminated in having a spoiled, willfully ignorant brat in the White House.

Nolite te bastardes carborundorum
Hope123
Posted: Saturday, December 23, 2017 2:32:58 PM

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Location: Burlington, Ontario, Canada
It has been said that there is not much of use to be found on Twitter.

No fear mongering in this post - just facts about the current economic conditions in the US.

However, I did see these tweets BY Americans, different posters on different threads, after the latest tweet by Trump calling all media except Fox News as fake, and by the passing of the tax reform bill.

:::
Fake news” has never really meant “This is a lie.” It’s tribal signaling. It means, “I give you permission to ignore this fact that’s not good for our team.”


A Canadian journalist has kept track of Trump's major lies. 978 and counting. Those pesky Canadians who keep telling it like it is. 😀. (And Brits.)


http://projects.thestar.com/donald-trump-fact-check/index.html
:::

The photo of the poster of the following quote was of a white male. It seemed to sum up Trump's immigration policies quite well. Trump is probably going to achieve his desire to limit immigration easily just by creating the current environment where nobody wants to emigrate to the US. University students from foreign countries is down 7% in the US and up in Canada. The brain drain is finally going in the correct direction from Canada's POV.

Quote from Twitter by a white male American - "Today in America a bunch of rich white people are stealing money from ALL working people because they convinced a bunch of poor white people that brown people were to blame for the decline in the economy caused by the LAST TIME rich white people stole money."


https://www.thestar.com/opinion/contributors/2017/12/22/why-i-left-donald-trumps-america.html The author who wrote his own story is Jerry Flores. He is now a professor at University of Toronto - Canada's gain.

::

Steel and coal workers who are T supporters are disappointed that they are facing layoffs in spite of Trump's promises.

::

Also, - Jobs are being off-shored faster than normal since Trump.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-11-29/federal-contractors-under-trump-are-offshoring-at-a-speedy-clip

http://www.cnn.com/2017/12/09/opinions/trump-obama-economy-boykin-opinion/index.html

The FANG stocks are mainly what is keeping the stock market up and after the big tax relief for business I expect the stock market to go even higher and that will benefit the wealthy and any middle class fortunate to be able to afford to gamble on the markets.

::

Less than a decade after taxpayers bailed out the big banks, the banking industry made record profits last year. That's who you're worried about, @realDonaldTrump

::::::

Mueller's investigation: $3,200,000+

Benghazi committee: $7,000,000+

Niger investigation: $0

Trump's golfing trips: $83,000,000+

New debt from GOP tax scam: $1,000,000,000,000+

Selective outrage.

It is not the strongest of the species that survive, nor the most intelligent, but the one most responsive to change.
progpen
Posted: Saturday, December 23, 2017 3:28:16 PM

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Location: Minneapolis, Minnesota, United States
Hope123 wrote:


Mueller's investigation: $3,200,000+

Benghazi committee: $7,000,000+

Niger investigation: $0

Trump's golfing trips: $83,000,000+

New debt from GOP tax scam: $1,000,000,000,000+

Selective outrage.

Priceless

Nolite te bastardes carborundorum
philips daughter
Posted: Saturday, December 23, 2017 7:27:49 PM

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I’m glad someone has mentioned the banks. The banks are loving the GOP. They have been de-regulated back down to Bush II times. You remember how it was right before they failed? And oh my! The hypocrisy abounds. Now several of the big banks are so happy with the new tax cuts they are handling out $1,000 bonuses this year. Wasn’t it the GOP who relentlessly criticized and harangued Pres. Obama for bailing them out? Weren’t they ones swooning at the thought of Hilary giving a $400,000 speech to a bunch of bankers. Banks just can’t lose for winning.
progpen
Posted: Saturday, December 23, 2017 9:55:23 PM

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https://www.bloomberg.com/quicktake/executive-pay

The gap between pay for U.S. chief executive officers and the people who work for them has widened sevenfold in three decades.

Starting this year, publicly traded U.S. companies must calculate how their CEO's compensation compares with median pay for rank-and-file employees. The pay ratio must be disclosed in the proxy statement -- the document sent to shareholders ahead of annual meetings -- which for most companies will be in early 2018. The rule, however, is among those the Securities and Exchange Commission is likely to reconsider under its new chairman, Jay Clayton, chosen by President Donald Trump.

More regulatory capture.

Once again the US is NUMBER ONE!!!!!! Yea! Wooohooo!


Nolite te bastardes carborundorum
almo 1
Posted: Monday, December 25, 2017 11:01:17 AM
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Location: Fussa, Tokyo, Japan




https://www.express.co.uk/news/world/896528/Julian-Assange-Twitter-Wikileaks-Christmas-Day-hack-activist




THE Twitter account of Julian Assange, the prominent hacktivist and founder of Wikileaks, has been removed from the social media site.

Twitter users were quick to question whether the account had been deleted or removed.

One wrote: “It appears Julian Assange's wasn't suspended by twitter but was hacked and deleted.

Another added: “In less than 24 hours the internet is about go absolutely insane if Julian Assange doesn't show proof of life.”

However others were full of Christmas cheer over the loss of the controversial figure’s account.

One wrote” It’s a Christmas miracle!”

Another chimed in: “This wasn’t on my Christmas list, but I’ll take it.”




progpen
Posted: Monday, December 25, 2017 12:02:31 PM

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almo 1 wrote:




https://www.express.co.uk/news/world/896528/Julian-Assange-Twitter-Wikileaks-Christmas-Day-hack-activist




THE Twitter account of Julian Assange, the prominent hacktivist and founder of Wikileaks, has been removed from the social media site.

Twitter users were quick to question whether the account had been deleted or removed.

One wrote: “It appears Julian Assange's wasn't suspended by twitter but was hacked and deleted.

Another added: “In less than 24 hours the internet is about go absolutely insane if Julian Assange doesn't show proof of life.”

However others were full of Christmas cheer over the loss of the controversial figure’s account.

One wrote” It’s a Christmas miracle!”

Another chimed in: “This wasn’t on my Christmas list, but I’ll take it.”



If he is guilty of the crimes he has been accused of, he should go to prison. Wikileaks has been used for some really stupid things that have severely devalued Wikileaks itself, but unfortunately the world would suffer greatly if Wikileaks disappears.

Nolite te bastardes carborundorum
almo 1
Posted: Monday, December 25, 2017 12:46:00 PM
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