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Харбин Хэйлунцзян 1
Posted: Saturday, December 2, 2017 5:38:36 AM

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http://www.thefreedictionary.com/bourne

Quote:
bourn 1 also bourne  (bôrn, bo͝orn)
n.
A small stream; a brook.

bourn 2 also bourne  (bôrn, bo͝orn)
n. Archaic
1. A destination; a goal.
2. A boundary; a limit.


The problem is that a brook can serve as a boundary and I do not understand which is meant here:

https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.usage.english/pOxPnz99xYo/KFWzenKjAQAJ

Quote:
It's a euphemism of course, for someone who undertakes to prepare the body for the final rites, for crossing that bourne from which no traveller returns.



აბა ყვავებს ვინ დაიჭერს, კარგო? გალიაში ბულბულები ზიან.
Romany
Posted: Saturday, December 2, 2017 6:17:18 AM
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Location: Brighton, England, United Kingdom

1. The word bourn is a dialect word in English - used in North, I think. But Drago will know more about that. Unless one is a Northern dialect speaker, about the only place the rest of us see it, is in old books or...on maps. The number of British place names ending with "bourn" or "bourne" or "burne" are all indication as to where speakers of this ancient dialect once lived.

As is noted, the other use is an archaic use - so only comes up when reading old texts in Old or Middle English.. I don't expect the average English person would have any idea of what it had once meant, either.

Can't read URLs so have no idea about the last part of your question - someone with a properly working computer will have to advise about that!
Харбин Хэйлунцзян 1
Posted: Saturday, December 2, 2017 6:30:42 AM

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Romany wrote:
Can't read URLs so have no idea about the last part of your question - someone with a properly working computer will have to advise about that!

It can not be the computer, it's the browser's fault. Which one do you use? You could probably install a different one.


აბა ყვავებს ვინ დაიჭერს, კარგო? გალიაში ბულბულები ზიან.
Romany
Posted: Saturday, December 2, 2017 6:36:06 AM
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XX1 -

A few people have offered suggestions which I've tried - but it's ONLY on TFD that this happens. All day long on other programmes I'm accessing or distributing stacks of URLs - and in the Private Message section I can still access them.

Not being a techie person, I've kinda given up - it's only a small part of my day that's affected. But it IS awfully annoying on occasion.
thar
Posted: Saturday, December 2, 2017 7:38:37 AM

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The Scottish and northern version is 'burn'.

Bourne is a stream, but also in the south it specifically means a seasonal stream - chalk land drains easily and in the summer the streams are dry. In winter, the water table rises and rstreams start to flow again - a winterbourne or
bourne.

Lots of rivers in the South of England:
Quote:
The River Bourne, Wiltshire, a tributary of the River Avon in Wiltshire, England
(Avon is just another name for a river - just more, Celtic, western, Welsh)
The River Bourne, Berkshire, a tributary of the River Pang in Berkshire, England
The River Bourne, Dorset, a river that flows through Bournemouth, England
The River Bourne, Chertsey, a tributary of the River Thames in Surrey, England
The River Bourne, Addlestone, a tributary of the River Thames in Surrey, England
The River Bourne, Kent, a tributary of the River Medway in Kent
The Bourne Eau, [a nice linguistic mash-up there] flowing from the town of Bourne, Lincolnshire to the River Glen, Lincolnshire



Hence 'bourne' place names around the chalk downs - Bournemouth, Eastbourne, Weybourne, The Bourne, Bourne, Bourne End, Ashbourne.

Up north it is a burn, and is not a seasonal chalk stream
Eg Blackburn, Bannockburn, Burnley, Burnside, Hebburn.

And of course it travels as a place name without its original landform meaning - Melbourne, Australia; Craigieburn, Mossburn, New Zealand.


I think the boundary is probably just because a stream is a fixed feature everyone can agree on - an unambiguous boundary. Even if you can wade across or even jump across it.

In the south at least it retains the meaning of a spring - water coming out of the rock -

Quote:
From Middle English burn, bourne, from Old English burne, burna (“spring, fountain”), from Proto-Germanic *brunnô, *brunō (compare West Frisian boarne, Dutch bron, German Brunnen), from Proto-Indo-European *bʰrew- (compare Albanian burim (“spring, fountain”) from buroj (“to pour, gush, derive”), Ancient Greek φρέαρ (phréar, “well, reservoir”), Old Armenian աղբիւր (ałbiwr, “fount”)). Doublet of bourn. More at brew.



It has that meaning in Icelandic: It isn't the river, it is the source.
Quote:
brunn/ur m ( -s, -ar)
1. (vatnsból) well
2. (uppspretta) spring
Харбин Хэйлунцзян 1
Posted: Saturday, December 2, 2017 11:35:17 AM

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thar wrote:
I think the boundary is probably just because a stream is a fixed feature everyone can agree on - an unambiguous boundary. Even if you can wade across or even jump across it.

The dictionary says they are two different words with separate etymologies. This is why I'm asking.

აბა ყვავებს ვინ დაიჭერს, კარგო? გალიაში ბულბულები ზიან.
Romany
Posted: Saturday, December 2, 2017 11:41:32 AM
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What was in my mind as I wrote it was its extant colloquial use. We don't seem to have retained it in Sussex - as we have words like "bungaroosh", and "Paul Pieces" and "twitters". (Note the Royal 'We' after I've been here for 4 years!) .

Whereas, in some places (Scotland, as you noted, but other Northern dialects too, as I recall) a burn, or a bourn, or a bourne is part of local dialectical conventions.

Thanks so much for your post - these kinds of things are starting to form a pattern in my head of this very foreign land that is my home. Now that the flint/chalk geography is imprinted, the "winterbourne" thing clicks into place: - it's a word that has mildly niggled at me from different directions for a while now.

Really enjoyed hearing the gears in my head grind over as I read your words!

EDITED to correct grammar error.
Drag0nspeaker
Posted: Saturday, December 2, 2017 1:10:02 PM

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Yes - It means a stream or river to me - I was born in Burnley and there are many 'bournes' between there and here. I have not known it to mean a boundary or goal, though.

The quote is from a description of the word "undertaker" -
The reference in the quote is (to me) the River Styx.
"that bourne from which no traveller returns"

The dead passed over the River to the Realm of the Dead, in Charon's boat.

Wyrd bið ful aræd - bull!
Харбин Хэйлунцзян 1
Posted: Saturday, December 2, 2017 1:32:38 PM

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Drag0nspeaker wrote:
The reference in the quote is (to me) the River Styx.

Thank you very much!

აბა ყვავებს ვინ დაიჭერს, კარგო? გალიაში ბულბულები ზიან.
thar
Posted: Saturday, December 2, 2017 2:02:23 PM

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Ah, I see.

There is an etymology which seems a bit sketchy to me

Quote:
bourn (n.2)
"destination," 1520s, from French borne, apparently a variant of bodne "limit, boundary, boundary stone" (see bound (n.1)). Used by Shakespeare in Hamlet's soliloquy (1602) and elsewhere, from which it entered into English poetic speech. He meant it probably in the correct sense of "boundary," but it has been taken to mean "goal" (Wordsworth, Matthew Arnold) or sometimes "realm" (Keats).

The dread of something after death, The vndiscouered Countrey; from whose Borne No Traueller returnes. ["Hamlet" III.i.79]


Quote:
bound (n.1)
c. 1300, "boundary marker," from Anglo-Latin bunda, from Old French bonde "limit, boundary, boundary stone" (12c., Modern French borne), variant of bodne, from Medieval Latin bodina, which is perhaps from Gaulish.

From mid-14c. as "an external limit, that which limits or circumscribes;" figuratively, of feelings, etc., from late 14c. From late 14c. as "limits of an estate or territory." Now chiefly in out of bounds, which originally referred to limits imposed on students at schools; the other senses generally have gone with boundary.



Seems to want it both ways! Whistle


Certainly an extremely specialised or archaic usage.
georgieporgie
Posted: Saturday, December 2, 2017 3:52:18 PM
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Харбин Хэйлунцзян 1 wrote:
Romany wrote:
Can't read URLs so have no idea about the last part of your question - someone with a properly working computer will have to advise about that!

It can not be the computer, it's the browser's fault. Which one do you use? You could probably install a different one.

Same problem here. I'm using Chromium. You can get around it, as I do, by viewing the "page source." The URL is there. A bit cumbersome, though.
Харбин Хэйлунцзян 1
Posted: Saturday, December 2, 2017 8:27:53 PM

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georgieporgie wrote:
Same problem here. I'm using Chromium.

Then it is probably run on Chromium OS and you do not have any alternative. This is certainly Chromium's fault but Farlex developers could perhaps work around it considering the fact that more than one person have problems. You probably need to post this in the 'Site features' section and it must not take very long for them to fix it.


აბა ყვავებს ვინ დაიჭერს, კარგო? გალიაში ბულბულები ზიან.
Харбин Хэйлунцзян 1
Posted: Saturday, December 2, 2017 8:30:46 PM

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Location: Dzerzhinskiy, Moskovskaya, Russia
thar wrote:
The dread of something after death, The vndiscouered Countrey; from whose Borne No Traueller returnes. ["Hamlet" III.i.79]

Wow! You managed to find the original idiom!
Thank you.


აბა ყვავებს ვინ დაიჭერს, კარგო? გალიაში ბულბულები ზიან.
palapaguy
Posted: Saturday, December 2, 2017 9:04:22 PM

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Харбин Хэйлунцзян 1 wrote:
georgieporgie wrote:
Same problem here. I'm using Chromium.

Then it is probably run on Chromium OS and you do not have any alternative. This is certainly Chromium's fault but Farlex developers could perhaps work around it considering the fact that more than one person have problems. You probably need to post this in the 'Site features' section and it must not take very long for them to fix it.


No, I'm running Chromium on Ubuntu (Linux).
Харбин Хэйлунцзян 1
Posted: Saturday, December 2, 2017 10:05:52 PM

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Location: Dzerzhinskiy, Moskovskaya, Russia
palapaguy wrote:
No, I'm running Chromium on Ubuntu (Linux).

Why not try Chrome or Firefox?

I have 3 browsers installed on my Win 10. Every has something that it does better than the other two.

აბა ყვავებს ვინ დაიჭერს, კარგო? გალიაში ბულბულები ზიან.
palapaguy
Posted: Saturday, December 2, 2017 11:17:57 PM

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Why 3 browsers? I try not to let the browser define me. I used Firefox extensively in the past. Then I stumbled upon Chromium. To me the browser is only a tool. Chromium works very well for me, better than Firefox, and I'm staying with it (for now).

And why Windows? I switched to Linux YEARS ago and haven't run a defragger or virus checker in all that time. Not once!
Харбин Хэйлунцзян 1
Posted: Sunday, December 3, 2017 2:57:00 AM

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palapaguy wrote:
Why 3 browsers?

Two came with Windows - Edge and IE. And I installed Chrome which I only use to play this Farlex game:

https://spelling-bee.com

palapaguy wrote:
And why Windows? I switched to Linux YEARS ago and haven't run a defragger or virus checker in all that time. Not once!

Because I am a Windows guy:

http://www.mycertprofile.com/Profile/432800342

Trying to learn some FreeBSD now but that only as a server platform. I do not like Linux since I noticed the way linuxoids talked of their fuhrer - it was almost 'Heil Torvalds'. Linux is a grown product now but I can't forget that euphoria of the mid 90s.

By the way I've never run a defragmenter since the advent of NT 4 in 1996. And I have never installed an antivirus in all my life.


აბა ყვავებს ვინ დაიჭერს, კარგო? გალიაში ბულბულები ზიან.
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