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Subject-independence in Modal verbs and in other verbs that are followed by infinitive. (Verbs) Options
A cooperator
Posted: Monday, November 27, 2017 5:48:07 PM

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Hi everyone!
I don't know if the title of my thread was mentioning to the thread content or not. However, I couldn't find other more suitable title.

Anyway,I read in the modal auxiliary verbs,(section number 354- 7, in the Practical English Usage for Michael Swan, that an interesting, rather complicated point about modal verbs is that their meaning usually "spread over" a whole clause. This means that one can change a modal structure from active to passive, for example, without affecting the meaning very much. Compare:
- A child could understand his theory.
His theory could be understood by a child.
- You mustn't put adverbs between the verb and the object.
Adverbs mustn't be put between the verb and the object.
- Dogs may chase cats.
Cats may get chased by dogs.
With most other verbs that are followed by infinitive, their meaning is attached to the subject, so that a change from active to passive changes the sense of the sentence completely. Compare:
- Dogs like to chase cats.
Cats like to be chased by dogs. (Different and - of course - untrue)
- Pete wants to phone Ann.
Ann wants to be phoned by Pete. (Not the same meaning)
My questions are:

1- Could you tell me what is meant with "for modal verbs, their meaning usually "spread over" a whole clause. This means that one can change a modal structure from active to passive, for example, without affecting the meaning very much." And "with most other verbs that are followed by infinitive, their meaning is attached to the subject, so that a change from active to passive changes the sense of the sentence completely. "

2- Do you think that the active form of each passive infinitive form below is correct?
Cats like to be chased by dogs.
- Dogs like to chase cats.
Ann wants to be phoned by Pete.
- Pete wants to phone Ann.

3- If my question number two was correct, then why would it be said that changing from active to passive changes the sense of the sentence completely?

4- Also, If my question number two was correct, I'd think the active forms of the passive forms in the sentences below are correct:
The room needs to be cleaned by someone.
- Someone needs to clean the room.
I need to be taken care of by someone.
- Someone needs to take care of me.

5- I was expecting that the the passive infinitives in the sentences below function as the object for the main verb in each sentence below. So, the active forms of the passive forms in each sentence below would be as follows:
Cats like to be chased by dogs.
- Cats like dogs to chase them.
Ann wants to be phoned by Pete.
- Ann wants Pete to phone her.
The room needs to be cleaned by someone.
- The room needs someone to clean it.
I need to be taken care of by someone.
- I need someone to take care of me.


6- If number #5 was correct, then here would be the key of my question number #1, explain what is meant with in my question number #1 since (- Pete wants to phone Ann. ) means that Pete is the one who wants to phone Ann'. However, converting it to a passive sentence, which is "Ann wants to be phoned by Pete.", would be Not the same meaning since this would mean that Ann is the one who wants Pete to phone him. However, with modal verbs, changing the sentence from active to passive wouldn't affect the meaning very much. For example, Pete must phone Ann." means that Pete is the one who must phone Ann. Also, changing it to a passive sentence, which is "Ann must be phoned by Pete.", would be the same meaning since this would mean that "Pete is the one who must phone Ann."

7- What is the active form for each passive form in each pair of the sentences below? If the active form might be the same, then could you tell me why?
- Cats like to be chased by dogs.
- Cats like being chased by dogs.

- Ann wants to be phoned by Pete.
- Ann wants being phoned by Pete.

- The room needs to be cleaned by someone.
- The room needs being cleaned by someone.

- I need to be taken care of by someone.
- I need being taken care of by someone.

- I hate to be made a fool of by someone.
- I hate being made a fool of by someone.







Whoever doesn't own what he promises to those who do not deserve must not promise it.
Drag0nspeaker
Posted: Monday, November 27, 2017 11:50:09 PM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 9/12/2011
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Location: Livingston, Scotland, United Kingdom
Hello again.

1. I can't explain this better than Swan does.
He gives examples - if you have a MODAL auxiliary, changing from active to passive does not change the meaning.
If you use a different (non-modal) auxiliary, the meaning tends to change.

2. These are incorrect - you are changing the subject, rather than just changing the infinitive.
The initial sentences and the changed sentences are active.

Cats like to be chased by dogs. The subject of 'like' is 'cats'. The passive phrase is "to be chased by dogs".

If you change the passive phrase to active, it becomes "dogs to chase them".
The subject and verb ("Cats like") stays the same.
"Cats like dogs to chase them."

Ann wants to be phoned by Pete.
Ann wants Pete to phone her.


********
If you want to change these sentences to passive, you can, but you have to look at the form of the original sentences.

Dogs like to chase cats.
Pete wants to phone Ann.
Subject, verb, object

When you make a sentence passive, you have to make the object into the subject, change the verb to "be ____ed" form and make the original subject into an agent preceded by "by".

This produces understandable, but very unlikely sentences.
"To chase cats is liked by dogs."
"To phone Ann is wanted by Pete."

3 & 4 - your #2 was incorrect, so these do not apply.

5. You are correct.
This is the correct way to change the passive phrases.

6. I really don't understand what you are asking.
It seems like you and Swan have already answered this.

7. Many of your original sentences make no sense. The others are:

- Cats like to be chased by dogs. - Cats like dogs to chase them.
- Cats like being chased by dogs. - Cats like dogs chasing them.

- Ann wants to be phoned by Pete. - Ann wants Pete to phone her.
- Ann wants being phoned by Pete.

- The room needs to be cleaned by someone. - The room needs someone to clean it.
- The room needs being cleaned by someone.

- I need to be taken care of by someone. - I need someone to take care of me.
- I need being taken care of by someone.

- I hate to be made a fool of by someone. - I hate someone to make a fool of me (would not be used)
- I hate being made a fool of by someone. - I hate someone making a fool of me.



Wyrd bið ful aræd - bull!
A cooperator
Posted: Tuesday, November 28, 2017 9:22:21 PM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 10/27/2011
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Drag0nspeaker wrote:
Quote:
Hello again.
7. Many of your original sentences make no sense. The others are:
- Ann wants to be phoned by Pete. - Ann wants Pete to phone her.
- Ann wants being phoned by Pete.

- The room needs to be cleaned by someone. - The room needs someone to clean it.
- The room needs being cleaned by someone.

- I need to be taken care of by someone. - I need someone to take care of me.
- I need being taken care of by someone.


Hi, Dragonspeaker,
I hope you're in a very best of health. And many thanks for your reply,

Yes, Perhaps 'want' is one of the verbs not followed by "a passive -ing form".
However, for 'need', I am sure that it can be followed either by an infinitive, passive infinitive form, , a gerund + a noun, a passive -ing form, an optional noun + an infinitive, or a noun.
Why I am sure since I was told

Fortunately, I still have the thread relevant with to 'need + passive ing- form' or 'passive infinitive form' had discussed through a private "follow-up" message with me and an advance member from English - England at Wordreference.com on the 3rd of April, 2012, printed as PDF file by me. That member's replies had been as follows:(Also, look at the very bottom of the screenshot below for the discussion page on PDF file. His replies are in the blue colour.).

Me: Is this example also correct? "Despite the environment magnificence of this island, it still needs being developed." For a passive-ing form?
He: Yes – it is going to be developed “by someone”.



Thus, depending on that member's replies, I think all acitve forms of the passive -ing forms in three sentences below would be correct.

- Despite the environment magnificence of this island, it still needs being developed. => Despite the environment magnificence of this island, it still needs someone developing it.
- The room needs being cleaned by someone. => The room needs someone cleaning it.

- I need being taken care of by someone. => I need someone taking care of me.




Drag0nspeaker wrote:
Quote:

- Cats like to be chased by dogs. - Cats like dogs to chase them.
- Cats like being chased by dogs. - Cats like dogs chasing them.


Firstly: But that member said that the active form of 'passive -ing form' in "1- She likes being looked at. " would be "She likes people to look/looking at her.", which I think can be similar to the active form of 'passive infinitive form' in "She likes to be looked at.", which is as follows: "She likes people to look at her." (look at the mid-page of the screenshot below for the discussion page on PDF file)

However, you only said that the active form of 'passive -ing form' in "Cats like being chased by dogs." would be "Cats like dogs chasing them.". However, the active form of the 'passive infinitive form' in "Cats like to be chased by dogs." Would be "Cats like dogs to chase them.".

Secondl:y Thus, do you think that the active form of 'passive -ing form' in
"I hate being made a fool of by someone." would also be "I hate someone to make/making a fool of me.".
"- Despite the environment magnificence of this island, it still needs being developed. " would be "Despite the environment magnificence of this island, it still needs someone/to develop/developing it."
"The room needs being cleaned by someone." would be "The room needs someone to clean/cleaning it."
"I need being taken care of by someone." would be "I need someone to take/taking care of me."

Thirdly: As long as the active form of 'passive -ing form' can also be similar to the the active form of 'passive infinitive form' as mentioned in the the sentences above, then what difference is there between the 'passive -ing form' and passive infinitive?


Fourthly: Verbs are followed either by an infinitive, passive infinitive form, , a gerund + a noun, a passive -ing form, an optional noun + an infinitive, or a noun.
For example: Almost "Like" and "need" are applied for all cases.

Cats like to be chased by dogs. ("like" + passive infinitive form)
She likes to be looked at her. ("like" + passive infinitive form)
Cats like dogs to chase them. ("like" + noun + an infinitive)
She likes people to look at her. ("like" + noun + an infinitive)
She likes being looked at. ("like" + passive -ing form)
Cats like being chased by dogs. ("like" + passive -ing form)
She likes people looking at her. ("like" + noun + 'gerund')
Cats like dogs chasing them. ("like" + noun + 'gerund')
I like reading English tales. ("like" + a gerund + a noun)
I like meat. ( "like" + a noun)

The room needs to be cleaned by someone ("need" + passive infinitive form)
I need to be tested by someone ("need" + "passive infinitive form)
The room needs someone to clean it.("need" + noun + an infinitive)
I need someone to test me. ("need" + noun + an infinitive)
The room needs being cleaned ( "need" + passive -ing form)
I need being tested ( "need" + passive -ing form)
The room needs someone cleaning it. ("need" + noun + 'gerund')
I need someone testing me. ("need" + noun + 'gerund')
The room needs cleaning. ( "need" + a gerund)
The clothes need a wash. ( "need" + a noun)




Finally: I can also conclude that 'need'/have'/ has' are semi-modal, when they are followed by an infinitive/ or a passive bare infinitive form. Thus, 'I need to/have to take care of you"., " You need to/have to be taken care of by me.", Where 'need to/have to' is a semi-modal verb + basic form of the verb 'take' in the first one, and 'passive bare infinitive form of 'take' in the second one.
However, 'need' can also be followed by a gerund(ing form) or a passive -ing form.





Drag0nspeaker wrote:
Quote:

- I hate to be made a fool of by someone. - I hate someone to make a fool of me (would not be used)
- I hate being made a fool of by someone. - I hate someone making a fool of me.


I think that 'hate' is one of the verbs only followed either by a gerund or a passive -ing form. But cannot be followed by an infinitive or passive infinitive. Thus, both "I hate to be made a fool of by someone. - I hate someone to make a fool of me " would not be used as you said.
However, "I hate being made a fool of by someone. - I hate someone making a fool of me." can be used.




Whoever doesn't own what he promises to those who do not deserve must not promise it.
A cooperator
Posted: Thursday, November 30, 2017 4:29:04 PM

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Joined: 10/27/2011
Posts: 2,405
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Could you please reply to my pervious post?

Whoever doesn't own what he promises to those who do not deserve must not promise it.
Drag0nspeaker
Posted: Friday, December 01, 2017 8:33:23 AM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 9/12/2011
Posts: 27,242
Neurons: 151,090
Location: Livingston, Scotland, United Kingdom
A cooperator wrote:
Could you please reply to my pervious post?

Yes - I am doing it now.

Quote:
Me: Is this example also correct? "Despite the environment magnificence of this island, it still needs being developed." For a passive-ing form?
He: Yes – it is going to be developed “by someone”.

No - this is incorrect.
"It still needs being developed" is not a normal English form at all.
"It still needs to be developed" is correct.

Also, the initial phrase "Despite the environment magnificence of this island" is incorrect - it would be "magnificent environment" or "environmental magnificence".

**************
Quote:

- Despite the environment magnificence of this island, it still needs being developed. => Despite the environment magnificence of this island, it still needs someone developing it.
- The room needs being cleaned by someone. => The room needs someone cleaning it.

- I need being taken care of by someone. => I need someone taking care of me.

These do NOT work.

If you need to be taken care of by someone, you need someone to take care of you.

"I need being . . ." is incorrect for any verb I can think of (there may be odd exceptions).

******************
Quote:
- Cats like to be chased by dogs. - Cats like dogs to chase them.
- Cats like being chased by dogs. - Cats like dogs chasing them.


Firstly: But that member said that the active form of 'passive -ing form' in "1- She likes being looked at. " would be "She likes people to look/looking at her.", which I think can be similar to the active form of 'passive infinitive form' in "She likes to be looked at.", which is as follows: "She likes people to look at her."

You could use either - they mean virtually the same.
However, strictly, the passive form of "Cats like dogs to chase them" is "Cats like to be chased by dogs."
The passive form of "Cats like dogs chasing them" is "Cats like being chased by dogs."
With "Like" as the modal auxiliary, both are possible and they almost mean the same thing.

With "need", "want" and some other verbs, the two forms are not possible (or mean rather different things).

******************
Quote:
Secondly Thus, do you think that the active form of 'passive -ing form' in
"I hate being made a fool of by someone." would also be "I hate someone to make/making a fool of me.".
"- Despite the environment magnificence of this island, it still needs being developed. " would be "Despite the environment magnificence of this island, it still needs someone/to develop/developing it."
"The room needs being cleaned by someone." would be "The room needs someone to clean/cleaning it."
"I need being taken care of by someone." would be "I need someone to take/taking care of me."

These initial sentences are incorrect.
"Despite the environment magnificence of this island, it still needs being developed.", "The room needs being cleaned by someone.", "I need being taken care of by someone." - these do not make sense.

"I hate being made a fool of by someone" is a rather unnatural sentence ("I hate being made a fool of by anyone/people" is more likely).
However - the two forms of the active sentence mean the same - "I hate people making a fool of me" and "I hate anyone to make a fool of me."

************
Quote:
Thirdly: As long as the active form of 'passive -ing form' can also be similar to the the active form of 'passive infinitive form' as mentioned in the the sentences above, then what difference is there between the 'passive -ing form' and passive infinitive?

The "passive -ing form" is not similar to the active of the 'passive infinitive form'.
"I hate being made a fool of by anyone" is not at all similar in form to "I hate people to make a fool of me."
The differences between the "passive -ing form" and the "passive infinitive form" depend on the verb.
For some verbs they mean the same, for some verbs they mean almost the same, for some verbs one of the forms is impossible.
You are trying to generalise "all infinitives" and "all participle phrases" - there are no rules for ALL of them.

*************
Quote:
Fourthly: Verbs are followed either by an infinitive, passive infinitive form, , a gerund + a noun, a passive -ing form, an optional noun + an infinitive, or a noun.
For example: Almost "Like" and "need" are applied for all cases.

Your first sentence there is correct - different verbs take different combinations of these forms.

Your examples are mostly correct:
She likes to be looked at her. does not need the final object, but the general form "She likes to be looked at" is fine.

"Like" can take all the different types of complement which you list above.

"The room needs being cleaned" and "I need being tested" do not make sense.
"Need" cannot use all the different forms, and some of them have a different meaning.

"I need to be tested"
and "I need a test" mean that you need - you are looking for - a test. It could be a self-test or an automated test done by a machine.
"I need to be tested by someone" means that you need a test - that is the main thing, a TEST. Incidentally, it will have to be done by some other person.
"I need someone to test me." means that you need a person - someone who is able to test you. The thing you are looking for is a person - when you have found a person, you can have them perform the test.

Each verb has its own set of meanings - you cannot make a rule using 'like' and try to apply it to 'want' or 'need' or 'must' or 'may' or 'have to'.

***************
Quote:
Finally: I can also conclude that 'need'/have'/ has' are semi-modal, when they are followed by an infinitive/ or a passive bare infinitive form. Thus, 'I need to/have to take care of you", " You need to/have to be taken care of by me.", Where 'need to/have to' is a semi-modal verb + basic form of the verb 'take' in the first one, and 'passive bare infinitive form of 'take' in the second one.
However, 'need' can also be followed by a gerund(ing form) or a passive -ing form.

I think you are basically right here.
I, personally, would say that "need" and "have to" are modals. ("has to" is just one form of "have to")
I would also say that "take care of" is the infinitive of the phrasal verb (It does not mean the same as 'take care' - be careful of).

Note, however, that your two sentences mean very different things.

"I need to/have to take care of you"
means that I have some emotional dependency on looking after you - or I have some major duty to look after you.

"You need to/have to be taken care of by me."
means that YOU have a dependency on being looked after by me - or there is some rule or law which says that YOU must submit to being looked after.

I don't agree that "need" can be followed by a "passive -ing form". It can be followed by a gerund.
"I need being looked after" does not make sense at all.
"I need looking after" (the gerund form) is OK - I think it is a little more informal and colloquial than the passive infinitive form "I need to be looked after".

*************
Quote:
I think that 'hate' is one of the verbs only followed either by a gerund or a passive -ing form. But cannot be followed by an infinitive or passive infinitive. Thus, both "I hate to be made a fool of by someone. - I hate someone to make a fool of me " would not be used as you said.
However, "I hate being made a fool of by someone. - I hate someone making a fool of me." can be used.

I disagree.
The infinitive naturally follows "hate" in some sentences. The passive participle form is natural in other sentences.

It does not feel natural to use the active infinitive with an agent - the participle is more normal.
"I hate someone to make a fool of me" just sounds completely wrong.
"I hate to be made a fool of" sounds perfectly natural.

I know you hate to be wrong, but in this case you are wrong.

***************
It would take half a book to describe all the different usages and meanings of all the modals and semi-modals . . .
Quote:
Modal verbs attach differing shades of meaning to the main verbs they modify. It is often the case that this difference in meaning is or seems to be very slight.
Farlex Grammar

There is a summary here and here, but it does not cover the whole subject.


Wyrd bið ful aræd - bull!
A cooperator
Posted: Friday, December 01, 2017 8:54:20 PM

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Joined: 10/27/2011
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Drag0nspeaker wrote:
Quote:
You could use either - they mean virtually the same.
However, strictly, the passive form of "Cats like dogs to chase them" is "Cats like to be chased by dogs."
The passive form of "Cats like dogs chasing them" is "Cats like being chased by dogs."
With "Like" as the modal auxiliary, both are possible and they almost mean the same thing.

With "need", "want" and some other verbs, the two forms are not possible (or mean rather different things).


Thanks a lot, Drag0nspeaker,

Firstly: I have never ever that 'like' is a modal verb at all. Modal verbs are 'must, can, will, shall, may, could, would, should, might, ought.

Also, if "like" was a modal verb, then it would have been followed by an infinitive 'to be' as all modal verbs cannot be followed by infinitives.
Oh, Algeria Street, I know it very well, where the Amidest institute is located there.

Also, if "like" was a modal verb, "Micheal Swan" wouldn't have said
"With most other verbs that are followed by infinitive, their meaning is attached to the subject, so that a change from active to passive changes the sense of the sentence completely. Compare:
- Dogs like to chase cats.
Cats like to be chased by dogs. (Different and - of course - untrue)
- Pete wants to phone Ann.
Ann wants to be phoned by Pete. (Not the same meaning)

Secondly: But even 'like' was a modal verb, Micheal Swan said that one can change a modal structure from active to passive, for example, without affecting the meaning very much. But you said "passive infnitive form" and "passive -ing form" are possible and they almost mean the same thing.



As long as I can use 'passive -ing form' or 'passive infinitive' after 'like"
However, with "need", "want" and some other verbs, the two forms are not possible. So, with after "need", "want", only passive ininitive is possible.

Firstly: Could you tell me exactly why we cannot use a passive -ing form after "need", "want"? Is it because "need" and "want" can only come with 'infinitive with to'. However, "need" doesn't come with a gerund after 'it'. Also, "The room needs being cleaned by someone" doesnt make sense since my mouth isn't going well while speaking it. Though it is funny to say this reason.

Secondly: Could you give me a list of verbs which can come with 'passive infinitive forms, and with 'passive -ing forms'. I.e. two forms are possible with them?
Cats like to be chased by dogs. - Cats like dogs to chase them.
Cats like being chased by dogs. - Cats like dogs chasing them.

Thirdly: could you give me a list of verbs which can only come with infinitive forms? Such as:
Ann wants to be phoned by Pete. - Ann wants Pete to phone her.
Ann wants being phoned by Pete.

The room needs to be cleaned by someone. - The room needs someone to clean it.
The room needs being cleaned by someone.


Finally: Could you give me a list of verbs which can only come with passive-ing forms?




Drag0nspeaker wrote:
Quote:
"I hate being made a fool of by someone" is a rather unnatural sentence ("I hate being made a fool of by anyone/people" is more likely).
However - the two forms of the active sentence mean the same - "I hate people making a fool of me" and "I hate anyone to make a fool of me."


Michael Swan said in his book that "I hate being made a fool of" .
However, I, myself, always think if a passive form isn't mentioned with an agent, then I can consider the agent as "someone or something". Thus, since an agent who will make a fool of me must be an animate object, I wrote 'by someone' as the agent - "I hate being made a fool of by someone.". The same thing is with any other passive forms don't have an agent, "She likes being looked at by someone." " I need to be taken care by someone".


Drag0nspeaker wrote:
Quote:

The "passive -ing form" is not similar to the active of the 'passive infinitive form'.
"I hate being made a fool of by anyone" is not at all similar in form to "I hate people to make a fool of me."
The differences between the "passive -ing form" and the "passive infinitive form" depend on the verb.
For some verbs they mean the same, for some verbs they mean almost the same, for some verbs one of the forms is impossible.
You are trying to generalise "all infinitives" and "all participle phrases" - there are no rules for ALL of them.


Since the active form of the passive -ing form 'being chased' can be 'cats like dogs to chase/ chasing them.'
Cats like to be chased by dogs. - Cats like dogs to chase them.
Cats like being chased by dogs. - Cats like dogs to chase/ chasing them.

Thus, I am asking what difference is there between 'passive -ing form' and 'passive infinitive'?







Drag0nspeaker wrote:
Quote:
I think you are basically right here.
I, personally, would say that "need" and "have to" are modals. ("has to" is just one form of "have to")
I would also say that "take care of" is the infinitive of the phrasal verb (It does not mean the same as 'take care' - be careful of).

Note, however, that your two sentences mean very different things.

"I need to/have to take care of you"
means that I have some emotional dependency on looking after you - or I have some major duty to look after you.

"You need to/have to be taken care of by me."
means that YOU have a dependency on being looked after by me - or there is some rule or law which says that YOU must submit to being looked after.


Firstly: You said that "need", "have to/has to" are modal verbs, but after modal auxiliary verbs, we use the infinitive without to of other verbs. Thus, in 'I need /have to be taken care of', 'need' is followed by the infinitive 'be' with 'to'.

Secondly:As far as I know:
A- Modal auxiliary verbs have no -s in the third person singular.
B- Questions, negatives, tags and short answers arem de without do.
C- After modal auxiliary verbs, we use the infinitive without to of other verbs. "ought" is an exception.
D- Modal verbs do not have infinitives or participles and they don't normally have past forms

However, I read 'need to'/'have to'/'has to', 'I have got ', and 'must' are used for strong obligation,and can convey the same meaning in the positive meanings. However, I only know 'must' is a modal verb. So, can I say that 'have to/need to/has to' and 'have got' are modal verbs or ordinary verbs. (Then, can I say that "need to/have to/have got/must" are modal verbs in "I need to/have to/have got to/must be taken care of." followed by a passive bare infinitive.)

However, "don't need to/don't have" and 'must not' dont convey the same meaning in the negative setences. "don't need to/don't have to" are used for absence of obligation, but they are not modal verbs since negatives in modal verbs are made without 'do'. However, 'must not' is used for prohibition, but it is a modal verb.
"needn't" and "used to" are used for absence of obligation, but it is a modal verb. I don't know if "don't need to/don't have to" and "needn't" can convey the same meaning.
"had to" are used for strong obligation in the past modal verbs to express the past for 'must'.





Drag0nspeaker wrote:
Quote:
I disagree.
The infinitive naturally follows "hate" in some sentences. The passive participle form is natural in other sentences.

It does not feel natural to use the active infinitive with an agent - the participle is more normal.
"I hate someone to make a fool of me" just sounds completely wrong.
"I hate to be made a fool of" sounds perfectly natural.

I know you hate to be wrong, but in this case you are wrong.


Firstly: But, do you think passive infinitive after 'hate' can be possible? But, you said "I hate to be made a fool of by someone.- I hate someone to make a fool of me " (would not be used).
Do you mean with wouldn't be used with "it does not feel natural to use the passive infinitive with an agent as in "to be made a fool of by someone."?
However, I am expecting that "to be made a fool of" can imply someone(agent) who will do the action. We use passive infinitive if we are thinking more about the action, or the person/thing that the action is done to. However, 'an agent' is the person/thing who will do the action. Thus, I always mention to the agent with 'by someone/something' in any passive forms if the agent is not mentioned, and I am sure that mention for the agent will only add additional information, and will not let a sentence sound completely wrong as you said. Thus, mentioning to the agent will not change anything in the sentence.

Secondly: Michael Swan said in his book that "I hate being made a fool of" .
However, I, myself, always think if a passive form isn't mentioned with an agent, then I can consider the agent as "someone or something". Thus, since an agent who will make a fool of me must be an animate object, I wrote 'by someone' as the agent - "I hate being made a fool of by someone.". The same thing is with any other passive forms don't have an agent, "She likes being looked at by someone." " I need to be taken care by someone".

Thirdly: But, why does it feel natural to use the active infinitive with an agent in "I hate someone making a fool of me.", and It does not feel natural to use the active infinitive with an agent in "I hate someone to make a fool of me."
In other words, why does it sound as follows:
"I hate someone to make a fool of me" just sounds completely wrong.
"I hate to be made a fool of" sounds perfectly natural.
"I hate someone making a fool of me" sounds perfectly natural.
"I hate being made a fool of by someone." sounds perfectly natural






Whoever doesn't own what he promises to those who do not deserve must not promise it.
A cooperator
Posted: Tuesday, December 05, 2017 7:42:09 PM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 10/27/2011
Posts: 2,405
Neurons: 8,765
Location: Ḩāḑírah, Hadramawt, Yemen
Could you please reply to my previous post as much as you you can?

Whoever doesn't own what he promises to those who do not deserve must not promise it.
A cooperator
Posted: Monday, December 11, 2017 6:49:34 AM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 10/27/2011
Posts: 2,405
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Location: Ḩāḑírah, Hadramawt, Yemen
Drag0nspeaker,
It looks that you have been sort of busy these days.
I wish you will find some free time to continue to finish this matter as much as you can.
Drag0nspeaker wrote:
Quote:
You could use either - they mean virtually the same.
However, strictly, the passive form of "Cats like dogs to chase them" is "Cats like to be chased by dogs."
The passive form of "Cats like dogs chasing them" is "Cats like being chased by dogs."
With "Like" as the modal auxiliary, both are possible and they almost mean the same thing.

With "need", "want" and some other verbs, the two forms are not possible (or mean rather different things).



Firstly: I have never ever that 'like' is a modal verb at all. Modal verbs are 'must, can, will, shall, may, could, would, should, might, ought.

Also, if "like" was a modal verb, then it would have been followed by an infinitive 'to be' as all modal verbs cannot be followed by infinitives.
Oh, Algeria Street, I know it very well, where the Amidest institute is located there.

Also, if "like" was a modal verb, "Micheal Swan" wouldn't have said
"With most other verbs that are followed by infinitive, their meaning is attached to the subject, so that a change from active to passive changes the sense of the sentence completely. Compare:
- Dogs like to chase cats.
Cats like to be chased by dogs. (Different and - of course - untrue)
- Pete wants to phone Ann.
Ann wants to be phoned by Pete. (Not the same meaning)

Secondly: But even 'like' was a modal verb, Micheal Swan said that one can change a modal structure from active to passive, for example, without affecting the meaning very much. But you said "passive infnitive form" and "passive -ing form" are possible and they almost mean the same thing.



As long as I can use 'passive -ing form' or 'passive infinitive' after 'like"
However, with "need", "want" and some other verbs, the two forms are not possible. So, with after "need", "want", only passive infinitive is possible.

Firstly: Could you tell me exactly why we cannot use a passive -ing form after "need", "want"? Is it because "need" and "want" can only come with 'infinitive with to'. However, "need" doesn't come with a gerund after 'it'. Also, "The room needs being cleaned by someone" doesn't make sense since my mouth isn't going well while speaking it. Though it is funny to say this reason.

Secondly: Could you give me a list of verbs which can come with a passive infinitive forms, and with a passive -ing forms'. I.e. two forms are possible with them?
Cats like to be chased by dogs. - Cats like dogs to chase them.
Cats like being chased by dogs. - Cats like dogs chasing them.

Thirdly: could you give me a list of verbs which can only come with infinitive forms? Such as:
Ann wants to be phoned by Pete. - Ann wants Pete to phone her.
Ann wants being phoned by Pete.

The room needs to be cleaned by someone. - The room needs someone to clean it.
The room needs being cleaned by someone.


Finally: Could you give me a list of verbs which can only come with passive-ing forms?


Whoever doesn't own what he promises to those who do not deserve must not promise it.
Drag0nspeaker
Posted: Monday, December 11, 2017 8:37:55 AM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 9/12/2011
Posts: 27,242
Neurons: 151,090
Location: Livingston, Scotland, United Kingdom
I give up.

Each answer produces five more questions - or rebuttals of the answers.

I realise the thread was about "Modal verbs and other similar verbs" - and that "like" actually fits into "other similar verbs".
I'm sorry I mistakenly said 'modal'.

We are all trying to explain things which are often just simple facts.

Fire burns.
Why?
Because it's hot.
How does it produce heat?
It is a chemical oxygenation process which . . .
Professor Smith says that oxygenation reactions can occur at any temperature therefore that can't be the reason it's hot.
Why do you say it's that when Professor Smith says it is not?
And why is it exothermic?
And must it always be oxygenating?
And . . .

They can occur at any temperature, but when they're hot, they burn.
"But why are some hot and some cool?
What makes some reactions exothermic and others endothermic?
Why is chemistry so complicated?
Professor Brown says that mixing Sulphuric Acid with Sodium produces heat - that contradicts Professor Smith's statement that reactions occur at any temperature. Why does he say that?
I don't believe that the Sun is made of Sulphuric Acid and Sodium, but that is hot, so is Professor Brown wrong?


These are not discussions, which is what a forum is for.

I realise that you are trying to learn English.
You need to do a course in English with a teacher/tutor.
It would be done on a gradient, teaching basics before getting into complex grammar points.
You do not need a course in Higher Advanced Linguistics.
It cannot be done by getting into such detailed points and demands for rules.

You also need to read (and listen to) normal English - novels, history books, films - whatever interests you -without listening for the speakers to violate rules you've learned.
Just listen to the patterns, the words which are used with other words.
You will hear "I like driving" and "I like to drive" and "I like being pampered".
You will hear "It wants cooking" and "He wants to drive" but not "He wants being driven."

The "exactly why we cannot" in many cases is simply "that is not how it is said".
We do not say "I go want to have ride my bicycle on" - we say "I want to go and have a ride on my bicycle."

It is not because of any complex rule about "want" or verbs of emotion.
The exact reason is - "that is how a sentence is written".

'Exactly why we cannot use a passive -ing form after need, want' is 'because it doesn't work that way'.
"It needs being cleaned" or "I want being free" just do not mean anything.

I cannot give you a list of all English verbs which can precede infinitives and a list which can precede participles or passives . . .
I don't know whether they would be really finite lists - I've never seen one, and I imagine each list would be thousands of vebs long.



Wyrd bið ful aræd - bull!
A cooperator
Posted: Monday, December 11, 2017 12:46:42 PM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 10/27/2011
Posts: 2,405
Neurons: 8,765
Location: Ḩāḑírah, Hadramawt, Yemen
Drag0nspeaker wrote:
I give up.

Each answer produces five more questions - or rebuttals of the answers.


I realise that you are trying to learn English.
You need to do a course in English with a teacher/tutor.
It would be done on a gradient, teaching basics before getting into complex grammar points.
You do not need a course in Higher Advanced Linguistics.
It cannot be done by getting into such detailed points and demands for rules.

You also need to read (and listen to) normal English - novels, history books, films - whatever interests you -without listening for the speakers to violate rules you've learned.
Just listen to the patterns, the words which are used with other words.
You will hear "I like driving" and "I like to drive" and "I like being pampered".
You will hear "It wants cooking" and "He wants to drive" but not "He wants being driven."


Thanks a lot, Drag0nspeaker,
Yes, but even that forum advanced member who had told me we could use "need + "passive -ing form" has been a native English speaker. So, he was wrongly understanding the use of "need". Unless he wasn't concentrated with me while telling me on 12, December, 2012.

Me: Is this example also correct? "Despite the environment magnificence of this island, it still needs being developed." For a passive-ing form?
He: Yes – it is going to be developed “by someone”
.

However, you corrected me. Thanks a lot,
As a result, even if I am going to be taught by non-native English teachers at an English institute, they will definitely wrongly be teaching me the English language. Although I have now been struggling and studying English language through a self-study and on English forums for about over than 4 years, I still feel as if my English still needs to be developed.


Quote:
The "exactly why we cannot" in many cases is simply "that is not how it is said".
We do not say "I go want to have ride my bicycle on" - we say "I want to go and have a ride on my bicycle."

It is not because of any complex rule about "want" or verbs of emotion.
The exact reason is - "that is how a sentence is written".

'Exactly why we cannot use a passive -ing form after need, want' is 'because it doesn't work that way'.
"It needs being cleaned" or "I want being free" just do not mean anything.

I cannot give you a list of all English verbs which can precede infinitives and a list which can precede participles or passives . . .
I don't know whether they would be really finite lists - I've never seen one, and I imagine each list would be thousands of vebs long.


When you've only explained to me that we cannot use "passive-ing forms" after "need" and "want", I got familiar with the use of "need" and "want". However, imagine being faced with other verbs other than "need", "want", how to know if I can use "passive -ing forms" after them. Whoever thinks taking a course in an English institute would let him be familiar with how each verb in English language is used will be wrong.
If I am not taught how each verb is used, then I will still be confused about whether if a verb can be followed by passive -ing forms, or passive infinitives or both.

Whoever doesn't own what he promises to those who do not deserve must not promise it.
Drag0nspeaker
Posted: Monday, December 11, 2017 1:30:05 PM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 9/12/2011
Posts: 27,242
Neurons: 151,090
Location: Livingston, Scotland, United Kingdom
Quote:
When you've only explained to me that we cannot use "passive-ing forms" after "need" and "want", I got familiar with the use of "need" and "want". However, imagine being faced with other verbs other than "need", "want", how to know if I can use "passive -ing forms" after them. Whoever thinks taking a course in an English institute would let him be familiar with how each verb in English language is used will be wrong.
If I am not taught how each verb is used, then I will still be confused about whether if a verb can be followed by passive -ing forms, or passive infinitives or both.

It has taken several posts and hours of your time to understand this one part of the use of two verbs.

This is why reading and listening to English is vital.
You become familiar with phrases - after getting used to the language, you may not even notice that you know, but you will recognise that "I want being driven" or "It needs being developed" are not used.
You will also notice that "Ann likes to be admired by John" and
"Ann likes being admired" are both used.

The more you read and listen, the more you will recognise patterns.
You will not need to learn or memorize them, you will simply know them.

Don't over-analyse the language.
Many phrases are the way they are because that phrase is easier to pronounce than another, or it's shorter, or it has a nice rhythm or (a very common thing) it is alliterative.

Wyrd bið ful aræd - bull!
georgieporgie
Posted: Monday, December 11, 2017 2:39:18 PM
Rank: Member

Joined: 8/7/2017
Posts: 104
Neurons: 520
A cooperator wrote:
[quote=Drag0nspeaker]

" ... if I am going to be taught by non-native English teachers at an English institute, they will definitely wrongly be teaching me the English language. ... Whoever thinks taking a course in an English institute would let him be familiar with how each verb in English language is used will be wrong."

Where is your evidence for that statement? Does it apply to ALL English institutes? And why do you want to become familiar with each verb before you gain basic conversational fluency?

With such attitude it is not surprising that you say "Although I have now been struggling and studying English language through a self-study and on English forums for about over than 4 years, I still feel as if my English still needs to be developed."

Your own words are evidence that an online forum such as this has not worked for you and can not serve as an English language teaching vehicle.

My conclusion from the above is that you should enroll in a quality English language class and approach it with an open mind.
A cooperator
Posted: Tuesday, December 12, 2017 7:54:28 AM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 10/27/2011
Posts: 2,405
Neurons: 8,765
Location: Ḩāḑírah, Hadramawt, Yemen
georgieporgie wrote:
A cooperator wrote:
[quote=Drag0nspeaker]

" ... if I am going to be taught by non-native English teachers at an English institute, they will definitely wrongly be teaching me the English language. ... Whoever thinks taking a course in an English institute would let him be familiar with how each verb in English language is used will be wrong."

Where is your evidence for that statement? Does it apply to ALL English institutes? And why do you want to become familiar with each verb before you gain basic conversational fluency?

With such attitude it is not surprising that you say "Although I have now been struggling and studying English language through a self-study and on English forums for about over than 4 years, I still feel as if my English still needs to be developed."

Your own words are evidence that an online forum such as this has not worked for you and can not serve as an English language teaching vehicle.

My conclusion from the above is that you should enroll in a quality English language class and approach it with an open mind.


Thanks a lot for being a contributor in this thread of mine, and your suggestions are to be welcomed.
However, you don't listen to the news. Have you ever heard about there is good news, except for the wars and conflicts etc. to be done in Yemen, where I live in. Thus, there is not surprising that there are no good English-learning institutes here in Yemen. There was an institute called with Amideast, but it has ceased since the political crises have been starting happening in Yemen.
No one here in Yemen or even in the interfering countries in Yemeni affairs talk about developing humans. On the contrary, all talk about wars.
I have a very huge variety of good English- learning books. However I study those books, I feel as I still don't master the language. I don't think the reason is in the materials quality of books. However, it is since we learn English in an environment where it is very rarely spoken.

Whoever doesn't own what he promises to those who do not deserve must not promise it.
A cooperator
Posted: Tuesday, December 12, 2017 8:22:55 AM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 10/27/2011
Posts: 2,405
Neurons: 8,765
Location: Ḩāḑírah, Hadramawt, Yemen
Drag0nspeaker wrote:
Quote:
When you've only explained to me that we cannot use "passive-ing forms" after "need" and "want", I got familiar with the use of "need" and "want". However, imagine being faced with other verbs other than "need", "want", how to know if I can use "passive -ing forms" after them. Whoever thinks taking a course in an English institute would let him be familiar with how each verb in English language is used will be wrong.
If I am not taught how each verb is used, then I will still be confused about whether if a verb can be followed by passive -ing forms, or passive infinitives or both.

It has taken several posts and hours of your time to understand this one part of the use of two verbs.

This is why reading and listening to English is vital.
You become familiar with phrases - after getting used to the language, you may not even notice that you know, but you will recognise that "I want being driven" or "It needs being developed" are not used.
You will also notice that "Ann likes to be admired by John" and
"Ann likes being admired" are both used.

The more you read and listen, the more you will recognise patterns.
You will not need to learn or memorize them, you will simply know them.

Don't over-analyse the language.
Many phrases are the way they are because that phrase is easier to pronounce than another, or it's shorter, or it has a nice rhythm or (a very common thing) it is alliterative.


Thanks a lot,
Yes, you're quite right and the evidence that I had asked a friend of mine, never caring about asking such differences, through WhatsApp "What difference is there between "the room needs to be cleaned by someone" and "the room needs being cleaned by someone."
His reply was as follows: the first one is correct since "need" comes with "infinitive with "to"". However, the second is wrong since my mouth isn't going well while speaking it and since it doesn't make sense. Although his reason of why not using "passive -ing form" after "need" does look funny, he could know which is the correct one.
When asking him, which is the correct, "Cats like to be chased by dogs." or "cats like being chased by dogs.", he had told we could use both without giving me the reason.
However, there is a saying going if you know the reason of happening something, the surprise will be cancelled. Thus, I always tend to know the reason of why this is used and another isn't.

Whoever doesn't own what he promises to those who do not deserve must not promise it.
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