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Is it a program I need to have installed, I need installed(HAVE,GET SOMETHING DONE) Options
A cooperator
Posted: Saturday, November 04, 2017 6:04:43 AM

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Hi Everyone!

What exactly is "odin" is it a program I need to have installed on my Computer that would take over my phone for things I need to do?

its a program on your pc, don't believe it has to be installed just a exe file that when your phone is in download mode connected it knows what to do pending you have the right files in the right spots. all tutorials will tell you what goes where.

My questions are:
1- Why do you think we don't say "is it a program I need installed...."

2- the active forms for :"don't believe it has to be installed" => 'don't believe it has someone to install it.'



Whoever doesn't own what he promises to those who do not deserve must not promise it.
taurine
Posted: Saturday, November 04, 2017 6:17:14 AM

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I thought that "Odin" would have had something in common with Norse mythology but instead it is about creating exact images of any of the hard drives on the system, including external drives, USB memory drives. But I still don't understand what the purpose is of it for? Why anybody would like to create image of the hard drive? I could understand creating extension of the hard drive and through that the capacity and capability of the hard drive might have been enhanced.
Audiendus
Posted: Saturday, November 04, 2017 9:00:35 AM
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A cooperator wrote:
1- Why do you think we don't say "is it a program I need installed...."

That would be another way of saying it. "To have installed" ("have" in this instance means "get") emphasises the action of getting the program installed.

A cooperator wrote:
2- the active forms for :"don't believe it has to be installed" => 'don't believe it has someone to install it.'

No, the active form would be "don't believe someone has to install it".
A cooperator
Posted: Tuesday, November 07, 2017 12:38:00 PM

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Audiendus wrote:
A cooperator wrote:
1- Why do you think we don't say "is it a program I need installed...."

That would be another way of saying it. "To have installed" ("have" in this instance means "get") emphasises the action of getting the program installed.

A cooperator wrote:
2- the active forms for :"don't believe it has to be installed" => 'don't believe it has someone to install it.'

No, the active form would be "don't believe someone has to install it".


Thanks you both of you, Audiendus, and taurine

If you select both versions, the moved file will have a number added to its name
Then, I think 'have' here emphasises the action of getting the number added.

As long as 'added' is a passivized verb, then I can repharse 'If you select both versions, the moved file will have a number added to its name.' to read as 'If you select both versions, the moved file will have a number to be added to its name.'



I think that 'added' here in 'If you select both versions, the moved file will have a number added to its name.' is a passivised verb.
So, What is the active form of the passive "added" in "If you select both versions, the moved file will have a number added to its name."

I only know the active form of this "infinitive passive form" ('to be added') in "If you select both versions, the moved file will have a number to be added to its name." would be as follows: "If you select both versions, the moved file will have a number to be added to its name." would be as "......the moved file will have someone/something add a number to its name."

If 'added' is not a passivised verb here, then how could you distinguish that and you might say 'added' is an adjective, in particular 'added' is a past participle of 'add'?

Whoever doesn't own what he promises to those who do not deserve must not promise it.
Audiendus
Posted: Tuesday, November 07, 2017 10:55:42 PM
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A cooperator wrote:
As long as 'added' is a passivized verb, then I can repharse 'If you select both versions, the moved file will have a number added to its name.' to read as 'If you select both versions, the moved file will have a number to be added to its name.'

No, that would wrongly imply that the number has not yet been added. "Will have a number added" is not really a passive verb construction, as no form of the verb 'be' is used. (If you said "...will have a number that has been added", the verb would be passive, and the active form would be "...will have a number that someone has added".)

A cooperator wrote:
If 'added' is not a passivised verb here, then how could you distinguish that and you might say 'added' is an adjective, in particular 'added' is a past participle of 'add'?

Yes, that is correct. "Added" is an object complement here; it complements the direct object "a number".
A cooperator
Posted: Wednesday, November 22, 2017 5:40:19 PM

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Audiendus wrote:

A cooperator wrote:
2- the active forms for :"don't believe it has to be installed" => 'don't believe it has someone to install it.'

No, the active form would be "don't believe someone has to install it".


Thanks a lot, Audiendus,
First of all, I think ('need to' + 'bare infinitive/passive bare infinitive')/ 'have to' + 'bare infinitive/passive bare infinitive')/ 'has to + 'bare infinitive/passive bare infinitive') can be used for obligations, then I think "don't believe it has to be installed" could be rephrased as "don't believe it needs to be installed".

Secondly: I think I can say that the active form for "I have to be tested."/"I need to be tested." would be "I have someone to test me."/"I need someone to test me." So, I think there is an analogy between "I need to be tested/I have to be tested" and "don't believe it has to be installed.". Even I think now "don't believe it has to be installed" could be rephrased as "don't believe it needs to be installed". Thus, in the same way, I think the active form for "don't believe it has to be installed" or even for "don't believe it needs to be installed" would be in order "don't believe it has someone to install it.", "don't believe it needs someone to install it.".

Unless you only think that the active form for "don't believe it has to be installed" or even for "don't believe it needs to be installed" would not be in order "don't believe it has someone to install it", "don't believe it needs someone to install it" since 'it' which refers to the 'Odin' program, which is an inanimate subject, doesn't need anything to do something to it.


Whoever doesn't own what he promises to those who do not deserve must not promise it.
A cooperator
Posted: Wednesday, November 22, 2017 6:01:58 PM

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Audiendus wrote:
A cooperator wrote:
As long as 'added' is a passivized verb, then I can repharse 'If you select both versions, the moved file will have a number added to its name.' to read as 'If you select both versions, the moved file will have a number to be added to its name.'

No, that would wrongly imply that the number has not yet been added. "Will have a number added" is not really a passive verb construction, as no form of the verb 'be' is used. (If you said "...will have a number that has been added", the verb would be passive, and the active form would be "...will have a number that someone has added".)

A cooperator wrote:
If 'added' is not a passivised verb here, then how could you distinguish that and you might say 'added' is an adjective, in particular 'added' is a past participle of 'add'?

Yes, that is correct. "Added" is an object complement here; it complements the direct object "a number".



Thanks a lot, Audiendus,

Firstly: But, The past participle of 'add' ('added') in "the moved file will have a number added to its name" not a passivised verb here, and is an object complement here?
So, "Will have a number added" is not really a passive verb construction.

Do you think that the past participle of 'install', of 'cut', of 'repair', of "explained', or of 'repeat in the following sentences below in order is NOT a passivised verb here, but is an object complement here for the same reason as no form of the verb 'be' is used?
And "have" in all of these sentences below means "get") emphasises the action of getting the something done.



If not, then I have guessed and written the active form of the passive bare infinitives below beside each active form since I think what are underlined are passive bare infinitives. If not, could you please let me know why?

I need to have a program installed on my computer. => I need to have someone install a program on my computer.
I need to have my hair cut. => I need to have someone cut my hair.
I need to have my car repaired. => I need to have someone repair my car.
I can't just absorb language by osmosis, I need to have things explained to me and I need to have it repeated. => I can't just absorb language by osmosis, I need to have someone explain things to me and I need to have someone repeat it.


Finally: Do you think if I need to have each of the underlined ones above be passivized bare infinitives, then I will need to add the form of the verb 'be'

I need to have a program be installed on my computer. => I need to have someone install a program on my computer.
I need to have my hair be cut. => I need to have someone cut my hair.
I need to have my car be repaired. => I need to have someone repair my car.
I can't just absorb language by osmosis, I need to have things be explained to me and I need to have it be repeated. => I can't just absorb language by osmosis, I need to have someone explain things to me and I need to have someone repeat it.


Whoever doesn't own what he promises to those who do not deserve must not promise it.
Audiendus
Posted: Wednesday, November 22, 2017 7:38:10 PM
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A cooperator wrote:
First of all, I think ('need to' + 'bare infinitive/passive bare infinitive')/ 'have to' + 'bare infinitive/passive bare infinitive')/ 'has to + 'bare infinitive/passive bare infinitive') can be used for obligations, then I think "don't believe it has to be installed" could be rephrased as "don't believe it needs to be installed".

Yes.

A cooperator wrote:
Secondly: I think I can say that the active form for "I have to be tested."/"I need to be tested." would be "I have someone to test me."/"I need someone to test me."

No! "I have to be tested" and "I need to be tested" have similar meanings, but "I have someone to test me" and "I need someone to test me" have quite different meanings. If you have someone to test you, it means that you already have someone who will test you. If you need someone to test you, it means that no arrangement has yet been made for a specific person to test you.

A cooperator wrote:
So, I think there is an analogy between "I need to be tested/I have to be tested" and "don't believe it has to be installed.". Even I think now "don't believe it has to be installed" could be rephrased as "don't believe it needs to be installed".

Yes.

A cooperator wrote:
Thus, in the same way, I think the active form for "don't believe it has to be installed" or even for "don't believe it needs to be installed" would be in order "don't believe it has someone to install it.", "don't believe it needs someone to install it.".

No - see my comment above.

A cooperator wrote:
Unless you only think that the active form for "don't believe it has to be installed" or even for "don't believe it needs to be installed" would not be in order "don't believe it has someone to install it", "don't believe it needs someone to install it" since 'it' which refers to the 'Odin' program, which is an inanimate subject, doesn't need anything to do something to it.

No, it is acceptable to use "has to" and "needs to" with an inanimate object.
Audiendus
Posted: Wednesday, November 22, 2017 8:10:41 PM
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A co-operator wrote:
Firstly: But, The past participle of 'add' ('added') in "the moved file will have a number added to its name" not a passivised verb here, and is an object complement here?
So, "Will have a number added" is not really a passive verb construction.

Do you think that the past participle of 'install', of 'cut', of 'repair', of "explained', or of 'repeat in the following sentences below in order is NOT a passivised verb here, but is an object complement here for the same reason as no form of the verb 'be' is used?
And "have" in all of these sentences below means "get") emphasises the action of getting the something done.

Yes.

If not, then I have guessed and written the active form of the passive bare infinitives below beside each active form since I think what are underlined are passive bare infinitives. If not, could you please let me know why? They are not infinitives - they are past participles.

I need to have a program installed on my computer. => I need to have someone install a program on my computer.
I need to have my hair cut. => I need to have someone cut my hair.
I need to have my car repaired. => I need to have someone repair my car.
I can't just absorb language by osmosis, I need to have things explained to me and I need to have it repeated. => I can't just absorb language by osmosis, I need to have someone explain things to me and I need to have someone repeat it.

Yes. Although a past participle used as an object complement is not a complete passive construction, it has some similarity to a passive construction, and all the alternatives you have listed above are acceptable.

Finally: Do you think if I need to have each of the underlined ones above be passivized bare infinitives, then I will need to add the form of the verb 'be'

I need to have a program be installed on my computer. => I need to have someone install a program on my computer.
I need to have my hair be cut. => I need to have someone cut my hair.
I need to have my car be repaired. => I need to have someone repair my car.
I can't just absorb language by osmosis, I need to have things be explained to me and I need to have it be repeated. => I can't just absorb language by osmosis, I need to have someone explain things to me and I need to have someone repeat it.

No, we would not use "be" in these sentences, as it is unnecessary. It would not change the meaning.
A cooperator
Posted: Friday, November 24, 2017 5:39:37 PM

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Joined: 10/27/2011
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Location: Ḩāḑírah, Hadramawt, Yemen
Audiendus wrote:
Quote:


A co-operator wrote:

I need to have a program installed on my computer. => I need to have someone install a program on my computer.
I need to have my hair cut. => I need to have someone cut my hair.
I need to have my car repaired. => I need to have someone repair my car.
I can't just absorb language by osmosis, I need to have things explained to me and I need to have it repeated. => I can't just absorb language by osmosis, I need to have someone explain things to me and I need to have someone repeat it.


Yes. Although a past participle used as an object complement is not a complete passive construction, it has some similarity to a passive construction, and all the alternatives you have listed above are acceptable.



Thanks a lot, Audiendus,

I know that all underlined above are past participle and not complete passive constructions. But, I have been trying understanding what are being underlined since all of them modifies a preceding noun, which cannot do the action by itself. I.e. for instance, the 'hair' is modified by 'cut', in 'I need to have my hair cut'. Thus, I said that 'I need to have someone cut my hair." Although 'cut' is an object complement, I think 'someone cut my hair' in 'I need to have someone cut my hair." seems as the active form for object complement 'cut'.




Audiendus wrote:
Quote:

A co-operator wrote:
I need to have a program be installed on my computer. => I need to have someone install a program on my computer.
I need to have my hair be cut. => I need to have someone cut my hair.
I need to have my car be repaired. => I need to have someone repair my car.
I can't just absorb language by osmosis, I need to have things be explained to me and I need to have it be repeated. => I can't just absorb language by osmosis, I need to have someone explain things to me and I need to have someone repeat it.



No, we would not use "be" in these sentences, as it is unnecessary. It would not change the meaning.


In the sentences above, I was trying to write the complete passive construction in order for the active forms listed beside get consistent to each one. Or otherwise, the active forms listed beside each one would be clumsy since there is no passive construction equivalent to them. For instance, if 'I need to have things explained to me' might be 'I need to have someone explain things to me', then I see 'I need to have someone explain things to me' would be only consistent to 'I need to have things be explained to me'. Though it is wrong to use 'be' in these sentences, as you said.




Whoever doesn't own what he promises to those who do not deserve must not promise it.
A cooperator
Posted: Friday, November 24, 2017 6:36:18 PM

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Audiendus wrote:
Quote:
A cooperator wrote:
Quote:
First of all, I think ('need to' + 'bare infinitive/passive bare infinitive')/ 'have to' + 'bare infinitive/passive bare infinitive')/ 'has to + 'bare infinitive/passive bare infinitive') can be used for obligations, then I think "don't believe it has to be installed" could be rephrased as "don't believe it needs to be installed".

Yes.


Thanks a lot, Audiendus,
But I mean 'have to/need to/has to + bare infinitive/a complete passive bare infinitive construction' can be used for obligations.
You need to test me now. -- 'Need to' + 'bare infinitive'
I need to be tested by you. ----- 'Need to' + 'complete passive bare infinitive construction'


Audiendus wrote:
Quote:

A cooperator wrote:
Quote:
Secondly: I think I can say that the active form for "I have to be tested."/"I need to be tested." would be "I have someone to test me."/"I need someone to test me."


No! "I have to be tested" and "I need to be tested" have similar meanings, but "I have someone to test me" and "I need someone to test me" have quite different meanings. If you have someone to test you, it means that you already have someone who will test you. If you need someone to test you, it means that no arrangement has yet been made for a specific person to test you.


I was expecting that 'someone to test me' in 'I have someone to test me' would be the active form for the passive bare infinitive 'be tested' in 'I have to be tested', and for the passive bare infinitive 'be tested' in 'I need to be tested'.

Then, could you please give me the active form of passive bare infinitive underlined in 'I have to be tested'/'I need to be tested.'/Google Chrome needs to be closed to clean the Internet Cache.'/'Google Chrome has to be closed to clean the Internet Cache.'?

Do you think it would be 'I have to have someone to test me', 'I need to have someone to test me.', ' Google Chrome needs to have someone/something to close it to clean the internet Cache.', 'Google Chrome has to have someone/something to close it to clean the internet Cache' in order?
Or do you think it would be 'Someone has to test me.', 'Someone needs to test me.', 'Someone/Something needs to close Google Chrome to clean the Internet Cache.', 'Someone/Something has to close Google Chrome to clean the Internet Cache.' in order?




Audiendus wrote:
Quote:
A cooperator wrote:
Quote:
Thus, in the same way, I think the active form for "don't believe it has to be installed" or even for "don't believe it needs to be installed" would be in order "don't believe it has someone to install it.", "don't believe it needs someone to install it.".

No - see my comment above.


Is it no since the 'it' is an inanimate subject which doesn't need anything. So, 'don't believe it needs someone to install it' would be wrong for this reason?

Audiendus wrote:
Quote:
A cooperator wrote:
Quote:
Unless you only think that the active form for "don't believe it has to be installed" or even for "don't believe it needs to be installed" would not be in order "don't believe it has someone to install it", "don't believe it needs someone to install it" since 'it' which refers to the 'Odin' program, which is an inanimate subject, doesn't need anything to do something to it.

No, it is acceptable to use "has to" and "needs to" with an inanimate object.


Why do you say 'an inanimate object' instead of 'an inanimate subject'? I think 'Google Chrome' is an inanimate subject, and not inanimate object in 'Google Chrome needs to be closed to clean the Internet Cache.'.

I mean since 'Odin program' in "Don't believe that the Odin program needs to/has to be installed" is an inanimate subject, I cannot say "don't believe it has someone to install it.", "don't believe it needs someone to install it." since an inanimate subject cannot need anything
To let you understand me well in saying we cannot say the inanimate subject need anything, I would give this example, 'Google Chrome needs to be closed to clean the Internet Cache." Since 'Google Chrome' is here an inanimate subject, then I am expecting that we cannot say that the active form for 'passive bare infinitive construction' underlined above would be 'Google Chrome needs someone/something to close it to clean the Internet Cache." since 'Google Chrome' is an inanimate subject which doesn't need anything to do something to it.

Whoever doesn't own what he promises to those who do not deserve must not promise it.
Audiendus
Posted: Friday, November 24, 2017 8:22:28 PM
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A cooperator wrote:
Then, could you please give me the active form of passive bare infinitive underlined in 'I have to be tested'/'I need to be tested.'/Google Chrome needs to be closed to clean the Internet Cache.'/'Google Chrome has to be closed to clean the Internet Cache.'?

Do you think it would be 'I have to have someone to test me', 'I need to have someone to test me.', ' Google Chrome needs to have someone/something to close it to clean the internet Cache.', 'Google Chrome has to have someone/something to close it to clean the internet Cache' in order?

These are almost correct. But "I have/need to have someone to test me" means that you have/need to have someone in order to test you, i.e. someone available to test you. But you don't just want the person to be available - you want them to actually test you! To make this clear, you should omit the 'to': "I have/need to have someone test me".

A cooperator wrote:
Or do you think it would be 'Someone has to test me.', 'Someone needs to test me.', 'Someone/Something needs to close Google Chrome to clean the Internet Cache.', 'Someone/Something has to close Google Chrome to clean the Internet Cache.' in order?

These are not so good, as they could wrongly be taken to mean that the obligation is on a particular person.

A cooperator wrote:
Audiendus wrote:
Quote:
A cooperator wrote:
Quote:
Thus, in the same way, I think the active form for "don't believe it has to be installed" or even for "don't believe it needs to be installed" would be in order "don't believe it has someone to install it.", "don't believe it needs someone to install it.".

No - see my comment above.

Is it no since the 'it' is an inanimate subject which doesn't need anything. So, 'don't believe it needs someone to install it' would be wrong for this reason?

No, "don't believe it has someone to install it" is wrong for the same reason that "I have someone to test me" is wrong in this context.

A cooperator wrote:
Audiendus wrote:
Quote:
A cooperator wrote:
Quote:
Unless you only think that the active form for "don't believe it has to be installed" or even for "don't believe it needs to be installed" would not be in order "don't believe it has someone to install it", "don't believe it needs someone to install it" since 'it' which refers to the 'Odin' program, which is an inanimate subject, doesn't need anything to do something to it.

No, it is acceptable to use "has to" and "needs to" with an inanimate object.

Why do you say 'an inanimate object' instead of 'an inanimate subject'? I think 'Google Chrome' is an inanimate subject, and not inanimate object in 'Google Chrome needs to be closed to clean the Internet Cache.'.

I was not using the word 'object' in the grammatical sense; I was using it in the sense of "thing". Grammatically, it is a subject, as you say. Sorry I confused you!

A cooperator wrote:
I mean since 'Odin program' in "Don't believe that the Odin program needs to/has to be installed" is an inanimate subject, I cannot say "don't believe it has someone to install it.", "don't believe it needs someone to install it." since an inanimate subject cannot need anything
To let you understand me well in saying we cannot say the inanimate subject need anything, I would give this example, 'Google Chrome needs to be closed to clean the Internet Cache." Since 'Google Chrome' is here an inanimate subject, then I am expecting that we cannot say that the active form for 'passive bare infinitive construction' underlined above would be 'Google Chrome needs someone/something to close it to clean the Internet Cache." since 'Google Chrome' is an inanimate subject which doesn't need anything to do something to it.

No, it is perfectly OK to say that the Odin program or Google Chrome "needs to be...". We often say things like "the room needs to be cleaned" or "these clothes need a wash".
A cooperator
Posted: Saturday, November 25, 2017 7:47:05 PM

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Joined: 10/27/2011
Posts: 2,420
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Location: Ḩāḑírah, Hadramawt, Yemen
Audiendus wrote:
Quote:

A cooperator wrote:
Quote:
Then, could you please give me the active form of passive bare infinitive underlined in 'I have to be tested'/'I need to be tested.'/Google Chrome needs to be closed to clean the Internet Cache.'/'Google Chrome has to be closed to clean the Internet Cache.'?

Do you think it would be 'I have to have someone to test me', 'I need to have someone to test me.', ' Google Chrome needs to have someone/something to close it to clean the internet Cache.', 'Google Chrome has to have someone/something to close it to clean the internet Cache' in order?


These are almost correct. But "I have/need to have someone to test me" means that you have/need to have someone in order to test you, i.e. someone available to test you. But you don't just want the person to be available - you want them to actually test you! To make this clear, you should omit the 'to': "I have/need to have someone test me".



Thanks a lot, Audiendus,
Could you please be a little bit patient with me here?
Firstly: As long as "I have/need to have someone to test me" means that you have/need to have someone in order to test you, and to make this clear, I should omit the 'to': "I have/need to have someone test me", why do we not say the active form for "Google Chrome needs to be closed to clean the Internet Cache." and "Google Chrome has to be closed to clean the Internet Cache." would be "Google Chrome needs to have someone/something close it to clean the internet Cache.', 'Google Chrome has to have someone/something close it to clean the internet Cache' in order?

Secondly: Do you think, only in this specific sentence "I have/need to be tested", I should omit the 'to' to make this it clear "I have/need to have someone test me"?
Or this can be applied for any kinds of sentences having the same pattern 'a subject + an obligation verb 'need to/has to/have to' + 'complete passive bare infinitive construction'). For instance,
I need to be laughed. => I need to have someone laugh me.
I need to be taken care of => I need to have someone take care of me.
This country needs to be developed. => This country needs to have someone develop it.





Audiendus wrote:
Quote:

A cooperator wrote:
Quote:
Or do you think it would be 'Someone has to test me.', 'Someone needs to test me.', 'Someone/Something needs to close Google Chrome to clean the Internet Cache.', 'Someone/Something has to close Google Chrome to clean the Internet Cache.' in order?


These are not so good, as they could wrongly be taken to mean that the obligation is on a particular person.




Firstly: You had said before in your first post in this thread that the active form for the passive bare infinitive :"Don't believe it has to be installed" would be "don't believe someone has to install it". - Which was taken to mean that the obligation is on a particular person. I.e. Why did you say that the active form for passive bare infinitive in 'Don't believe it has to be installed' would be 'Don't believe that someone has to install it'. Where you considered as if the whole sentence was in passive form. However, only 'to be installed' is a passive form.
Then, you said that the active forms below are NOT so good since that would be taken to mean that the obligation is on a particular person. This contradicts what you had said before in "Don't believe it has to be installed". I.e. I think there is no difference in passive construction in '"Don't believe it has to be installed" and in the sentences below?

I have to be tested. => Someone has to test me.
I need to be tested. => Someone needs to test me.
He has to be tested. => Someone has to test me.
Google Chrome needs to be closed to clean the Internet Cache. => Someone/Something needs to close Google Chrome to clean the Internet Cache.
Google Chrome has to be closed to clean the Internet Cache. => Someone/Something has to close Google Chrome to clean the Internet Cache.


Secondly: Why do we not say that the active form for "don't believe it has to be installed" would be 'don't believe it has to have someone install it." or even "don't believe it has to have someone to install it." as long as the active forms for the following passive bare infinitive constructions are almost correct as you said?
I have to be tested => I have to have someone test me.
I need to be tested. => I need to have someone test me.
Google Chrome needs to be closed to clean the Internet Cache. => Google Chrome needs to have someone/something to close it to clean the internet Cache.
Google Chrome has to be closed to clean the Internet Cache. => Google Chrome has to have someone/something to close it to clean the internet Cache.

Thirdly: You had said before that: "I have to be tested" and "I need to be tested" have similar meanings, but "I have someone to test me" and "I need someone to test me" have quite different meanings. If you have someone to test you, it means that you already have someone who will test you. If you need someone to test you, it means that no arrangement has yet been made for a specific person to test you."

But, as far as I know that the phrase 'to be tested' in "I have to be tested" and "I need to be tested" functions as the object for 'need/have' here. So, I think the active forms for passive infinitive construction would be:
I need someone to test me./I have someone to test me.

But, I don't know why you said that the active forms for 'to be tested' in "I have to be tested" and "I need to be tested" would be: "I need to/have to have someone test me".
Also, do you think that 'I need being tested by someone' would be the passive form for 'I need someone to test me.'. If so, then what is the passive form for 'I have someone to test me.'?




Whoever doesn't own what he promises to those who do not deserve must not promise it.
A cooperator
Posted: Saturday, November 25, 2017 8:15:16 PM

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Firstly: In general, when coming accross such pattern (a Subject + an obligation verb 'need to/has to/have to' + 'complete passive bare infinitive construction'), I am confused about how the active form would be for passive bare infinitive construction.
Since 'need to/has to/have to' + 'complete passive bare infinitive construction' and 'must' + 'complete passive bare infinitive construction' can convey the same meaning in positive forms ,I think I'll have three options of giving the active forms for passive bare infinitive constructions in this pattern 'need to/has to/have to' . So, could you kindly tell me which active forms might be incorrect and why?
I must be tested. => Someone must test me.
I need to/have to be tested. => I need to/have to have someone test me., I need to/have to have someone to test me., Someone needs to/has to test me.

I must be taken care of. => Someone must take care of me.
I need to/have to be taken care of. => I need to/have to have someone take care of me., I need to/have to have someone to take care of me., Someone needs to/has to take care of me.

Google Chrome must be closed to clean the Internet Cache. => Something/Someone must close Ggoogle Chrome to clean the Internet Cache.
Google Chrome needs to/has to be closed to clean the Internet Cache. => Google Chrome needs to/has to have someone close it to clean the Internet Cache., Google Chrome needs to/has to have someone to close it to clean the Internet Cache., Someone needs to/has to close Google Chrome to clean the Internet Cache.

The room must be cleaned. => Someone must clean the room.
The room needs to be cleaned. => The room needs to have someone clean it, The room needs to have someone to clean it., Someone needs to clean the room.


Secondly: Even if I have mentioned to the agent for the passive bare infinitive constructions, do you think that wouldn't change anything and the active forms would be the same?
I have to be tested by someone => I have to have someone test me.
I need to be tested by someone. => I need to have someone test me.

I have to be taken care of by somone => I have to have someone take care of me.
I need to be taken care of by someone => I need to have someone take care of me.

Google Chrome needs to be closed by someone to clean the Internet Cache. => Google Chrome needs to have someone/something to close it to clean the internet Cache.
Google Chrome has to be closed by someone to clean the Internet Cache. => Google Chrome has to have someone/something to close it to clean the internet Cache.

The room needs to be cleaned by someone => The room needs to have someone to clean it.
The room has to be cleaned by someone => The room has to have someone to clean it.


Thirdly: In general, when must we immediately judge that the active form for such a pattern (a subject + an obligation verb 'need to/has to/have to' + 'complete passive bare infinitive construtioin) would be taken to mean that the obligation is on a particular person. I.e. where 'need to/have to/has to' would be equivlent to 'must'. Thus, the whole sentence would be in passive form. I don't remember any examples to be done with this way. However, I only guessed these ones below:
I must be tested by someone => Someone must test me.
I need to be tested by someone => Someone needs to test me.
I have to be tested by someone => Someone has to test me.

I must be taken care of by someone. => Someone must take care of me.
I need to be taken care of by someone. => Someone needs to take care of me.
I have to be taken care of by someone. => Somone has to take care of me.


Fourthly: Can I say that "need to/have to/has to" + passive bare infinitive construction" and "must passive bare infinitive construction" convey the same meaning in positive forms. If so, then I'll have four options of giving the active forms for passive bare infinitive constructions in "need to/have to/has to" + passive bare infinitive construction" . So, could you kindly tell me which active forms might be incorrect and why?
I must be tested. => Someone must test me.
I need to/have to be tested. => I need to/have to have someone test me, I need to/have to have someone to test me, I need /have someone to test me., Someone needs to/has to test me.

I must be taken care of. => Someone must take care of me.
I need to/have to be taken care of. => I need to/have to have someone take care of me, I need to/have to have someone to take care of me., I need /have someone to take care of me., Someone needs to/has to take care of me.

Google Chrome must be closed to clean the Internet Cache. => Someoe must close Google Chrome to clean the Internet Cache.
Google Chrome needs to/has to be closed to clean the Internet Cache. => Google Chrome needs to/has to have someone close it to clean the Internet Cache., Google Chrome needs to/has to have someone to close it to clean the Internet Cache., Google Chrome needs to/has someone to close it to clean the Internet Cache., Someone needs to/has to close Google Chrome to clean the Internet Cache.

The room must be cleaned. => Someone must clean the room.
The room needs to/has to be cleaned. => The room needs to/has to have someone clean it, The room needs to/has to have someone to clean it., The room needs/has someone to clean it. Someone needs to/has to clean the room.



Fifthly: But what difference is there between (a subject + an obligation verb 'need to' + 'complete passive bare infinitive construction'), and ('a subject + an obligation verb 'need' + 'complete passive -ing construction')?
I was expecting that when a subject is inanimate, then we must use this pattern '('a subject + an obligation verb 'need' + 'complete passive -ing construction'.). Howevever, when a subject is animate, then we we must use this pattern '('a subject + an obligation verb 'need' + 'complete passive bare infinitive construction). If I am wrong and both are correct, then what difference is there between each pair below:

The country needs to be developed by someone.(incorrect since 'country' is an inanimate subject) => The country needs to have someone to develop it.
The country needs being developed by someone(correct). => Someone needs to develop the country.

The room needs to be cleaned by someone((incorrect since 'room' is an inanimate subject)). => The rooms needs to have someone to clean it.
The room needs being cleaned by someone.(correct) => Somone needs to clean the room.

Google Chrome needs to be closed by someone to clean the Internet Cache.(incorrect since 'Google Chrome' is an inanimate subject) => Google Chrome needs to/has to have someone close it to clean the Internet Cache.
Google Chrome needs being closed by someone to clean the Internet Cache. (correct)=> Someone needs to close Google Chrome to clean the Internet Cache.


I need to be tested by someone.(correct since 'I' is an animate subject) => I need to have someone test me.
I need being tested by someone.(incorrect since 'I' is an animate subject) => Someone needs to test me.

I need to be taken care of by someone.(correct since 'I' is an animate subject )=> I need to have someone take care of me.
I need being taken care of by someone. (incorrect since 'I' is an animate subject) => I need someone to take care of me.

I need to be laughed by someone.(correct since 'I' is an animate subject) => I need to have someone laugh me.
I need being laughed by someone (incorrect since since 'I' is an animate subject) => I need someone to laugh me.


Finally: Since the active forms for 'She likes being looked at by people.' would be 'She likes people to look at her.', and for 'He hates being made a fool of by people.' would be 'He hates people to make a fool of him.', I think that the active forms for :

The country needs being developed by someone. => The country needs someone to develop it. And not 'Someone needs to develop the country.'

The room needs being cleaned by someone. => The room needs someone to clean it. And not 'Somone needs to clean the room.'

Google Chrome needs being closed by something/someone to clean the Internet Cache. => Google Chrome needs something/someone to close it to clean the Internet Cache. And not 'Something/someone needs to close Google Chrome to clean the Internet Cache.'

I need being tested by someone => I need someone to test me. And not 'Someone needs to test me.'

I need to be taken care of by someone => I need someone to take care of me.

I need being laughed by someone => I need someone to laugh me.

Whoever doesn't own what he promises to those who do not deserve must not promise it.
Audiendus
Posted: Saturday, November 25, 2017 9:10:40 PM
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I am sorry, A cooperator, but I cannot spend any more time on this. Your lists of questions keep getting longer, and it would take me many hours to reply to all the detailed points and clear up the various misunderstandings you have.

Perhaps someone else can help.
palapaguy
Posted: Saturday, November 25, 2017 10:57:52 PM

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Audiendus wrote:
I am sorry, A cooperator, but I cannot spend any more time on this. Your lists of questions keep getting longer, and it would take me many hours to reply to all the detailed points and clear up the various misunderstandings you have.

Perhaps someone else can help.

No apology needed. You've been extraordinarily kind and generous with your time, Audiendus!
A cooperator
Posted: Sunday, November 26, 2017 3:25:51 PM

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Audiendus wrote:
I am sorry, A cooperator, but I cannot spend any more time on this. Your lists of questions keep getting longer, and it would take me many hours to reply to all the detailed points and clear up the various misunderstandings you have.

Perhaps someone else can help.


Thanks a lot, Audiendus,
I know you had taken a lot of your precious time out helping me, and you've been extraordinarily kind and generous with your time as palapaguy said. I highly appreciate your efforts helping me. However, I am respectfully requesting you to reply to those questions of mine when you have any free time. Maybe because I am confused with the correct use of this kind of pattern, my questions still keep getting longer. However, if you don't reply to them, I will be still confused about this topic. I hope you will help me to get a final concept for the correct use of this pattern. And I hope those questions would be my final questions in this thread of mine.

Whoever doesn't own what he promises to those who do not deserve must not promise it.
A cooperator
Posted: Monday, November 27, 2017 7:01:52 PM

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Audiendus wrote:
A cooperator wrote:
1- Why do you think we don't say "is it a program I need installed...."

That would be another way of saying it. "To have installed" ("have" in this instance means "get") emphasises the action of getting the program installed.

A cooperator wrote:
2- the active forms for :"don't believe it has to be installed" => 'don't believe it has someone to install it.'

No, the active form would be "don't believe someone has to install it".


Audiendus, I am trying making my questions be a little bit shorter and focused on specific point. So, I think that would help me get answers to my questions. I let each post have a few points.

1- In "What exactly is "odin" is it a program I need to have installed on my Computer that would take over my phone for things I need to do?"
Is "a program" the direct object for "need" or for "have"?

2- If it is for "need", then I can say either "I need a program to have/get installed", Or even "I need a program installed." are correct. Where "installed " is an object complement. It complements the direct object "a program".

3- If "a program" is the direct object for "need", then I don't think "I need to have a program installed on my computer. " is correct since " I need a program to have/ get installed" would be the correct one.

4- Do you think that 'have/get' in the examples below can be interchangeable with the meaning of emphasising of the action of getting something done.
Which animal would you like to have/get your face painted as?
I would like to have/get my face painted as a falcon.
Which program would you need to have/get installed on your computer?
I would need to have Odin program installed on my computer.

5- What is the direct object for 'need' and 'like'? If "like" is transitive there, and 'Which animal' is the object for the proposition 'as', then what about 'need'?

6- Comparing the construction of two sentences would result in asking that 'it' must be written after 'have/get' in the second one.
Which animal would you like to have/get your face painted as?
Which program would you need to have/get it installed on your computer?



Whoever doesn't own what he promises to those who do not deserve must not promise it.
Audiendus
Posted: Monday, November 27, 2017 8:17:42 PM
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A cooperator wrote:
1- In "What exactly is "odin" is it a program I need to have installed on my Computer that would take over my phone for things I need to do?"
Is "a program" the direct object for "need" or for "have"?

"A program" is the direct object of "have". (I need to have this program installed.)

A cooperator wrote:
2- If it is for "need", then I can say either "I need a program to have/get installed"

No, this is wrong, for the reason stated above.

A cooperator wrote:
Or even "I need a program installed." .... Where "installed " is an object complement. It complements the direct object "a program".

Yes, this is correct. It is a different construction. Here, "A program" is the direct object of "need".

A cooperator wrote:
3- If "a program" is the direct object for "need", then I don't think "I need to have a program installed on my computer. " is correct since " I need a program to have/ get installed" would be the correct one.

No - see my first comment above. In "I need to have", "a program" is the direct object of "have", not "need".

A cooperator wrote:
4- Do you think that 'have/get' in the examples below can be interchangeable with the meaning of emphasising of the action of getting something done.
Which animal would you like to have/get your face painted [/u]as?
I would like to have/get my face painted as a falcon.
Which program would you need to have/get installed on your computer?
I would need to have Odin program installed on my computer.

Yes, if you are referring to the action and not the subsequent state.

A cooperator wrote:
5- What is the direct object for 'need' and 'like'? If "like" is transitive there, and 'Which animal' is the object for the proposition 'as', then what about 'need'?

In the above sentences, the object of "like" is the phrase "to have/get my face painted as a falcon", and the object of "need" is the phrase "to have Odin program installed on my computer".

A cooperator wrote:
6- Comparing the construction of two sentences would result in asking that 'it' must be written after 'have/get' in the second one.
Which animal would you like to have/get your face painted as?
Which program would you need to have/get it installed on your computer?

No, the "it" is wrong. "To have/get" already has an object, i.e. "which program", so it does not need another one. You can see this if we rearrange the words:

"You would need to have/get | which program | installed on your computer?"

(The first sentence is differently constructed. There, "which animal" is the object of the preposition "as", not of the verb "to have/get".)
Drag0nspeaker
Posted: Monday, November 27, 2017 9:12:27 PM

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Hello Cooperator.

I will try to answer your last set of questions, but first a comment on the general thread.

There is a "formula" for changing simple passive sentences to equivalent active sentences.
"The meal was eaten" := "Someone or something ate the meal."
This is very simple and 'mathematical'.

However, when you have a more complex passive sentence (as your original question has), there is not a mathematical formula to convert it to active.
The same "form" of sentence (even exactly the same words, sometimes) can mean two different things in different circumstances.
You need to understand what is being said in the passive one - then say the same thing with an active sentence.

Your example "I need to have Odin installed on my computer" is an example.

*******
"Can you help me? I need to have Odin installed on my computer."
This would be equivalent to "I need you to install Odin on my computer."

**********
"I can't do that job for you. I need to have Odin installed on my computer to do that, and I haven't got it yet."
This "I need to have Odin installed on my computer" would be equivalent to "I need to be in a state of owning a computer which has Odin as one of its programs." - not really a passive - "I need (to have) a computer running Odin."

*************
To your latest questions:

1- In "What exactly is "Odin"? Is it a program I need to have installed on my computer that would take over my phone for things I need to do?"
Is "a program" the direct object for "need" or for "have"?

If you are using that sentence as a passive (which is the most likely way to understand it), the full verb-phrase is "need to have installed".
"A program" is the object of 'installed'.
"Installed" is the complement of "to have".
"To have installed" is the object of 'need'. "What do I need?" - "I need to have (the program) installed."

************
Your questions 2 & 3 do not apply as the conditions are not correct.

************
4- Do you think that 'have/get' in the examples below can be interchangeable with the meaning of emphasising of the action of getting something done.
Yes - the meaning of 'have' and 'get' in those sentences relates to "causing someone or something to perform an action" - getting something done.

***********
5- What is the direct object for 'need' and 'like'? If "like" is transitive there, and 'Which animal' is the object for the proposition 'as', then what about 'need'?
I cannot find a sentence containing the words 'need', 'like' and 'animal'.

*********
6- Comparing the construction of two sentences would result in asking that 'it' must be written after 'have/get' in the second one.
Which animal would you like to have/get your face painted as?
Which program would you need to have/get it installed on your computer?

These sentences are not equivalent.

The equivalent of "Which animal would you like to have/get your face painted as?" would be "Which program would you need to have/get your computer programmed with?"


Wyrd bið ful aræd - bull!
A cooperator
Posted: Monday, November 27, 2017 9:42:10 PM

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Audiendus wrote:
Quote:

A cooperator wrote:
Quote:
1- In "What exactly is "odin" is it a program I need to have installed on my Computer that would take over my phone for things I need to do?"
Is "a program" the direct object for "need" or for "have"?


"A program" is the direct object of "have". (I need to have this program installed.)


Thanks a lot, Audiendus,
Is 'need to' here a modal verb? So, you decided that 'a program' is the direct object of 'have' in "Is it a program I need to have installed." or in "I need to have this program installed.". However, in "I need a program installed.", or in "Is it a program I need installed.", 'need' is an ordinary verb, and you decided that 'a program' is its direct object'





Audiendus wrote:
Quote:

A cooperator wrote:
Quote:

Or even "I need a program installed." .... Where "installed " is an object complement. It complements the direct object "a program".

Yes, this is correct. It is a different construction. Here, "A program" is the direct object of "need".



But you had said before that "I need a program installed." or "is it a program I need installed" would be another way of saying " is it a program I need to have installed". Thus, I am asking where is the equivalence/similarity between them since I see 'need' in the "I need a program installed" or "is it a program I need installed" have 'a program' as its direct object . However, 'have' in "Is it a program I need to have installed" or in "I need to have a program installed" is the one which has 'a program' as its direct object.




Quote:
Yes, if you are referring to the action and not the subsequent state.


What do you mean with 'subsequent state?
I must have asked what 'Subsequent state' means.
I only read "Subsequent states are states that follow a transition. When a transition completes, subsequent states are entered. A subsequent state is represented by an arrow from the transition to the state."



Audiendus wrote:
Quote:
A cooperator wrote:
Quote:
5- What is the direct object for 'need' and 'like'? If "like" is transitive there, and 'Which animal' is the object for the proposition 'as', then what about 'need'?


In the above sentences, the object of "like" is the phrase "to have/get my face painted as a falcon", and the object of "need" is the phrase "to have Odin program installed on my computer".



Then 'like' and 'need' are ordinary verbs, and they are both transitive. However, I think ("infinitive with 'to') = ("to" + "the basic form of a verb"). So, if anyone had a close look at 'to' following 'like' and 'need', then they would judge that 'like' and 'need' are intransitive verbs since they would consider 'to' as if it was combined with the basic verb of 'have/get' to form the infinitive since 'to' is followed by a basic form of another verb 'have/get'. So, I think each verb is followed by infinitive('to' + the basic form of a verb) is intransitive. Thus, 'like' and 'need' are intransitive verbs since 'to have/get' are considered infinitive with 'to' in 'I need to have/get Odian program installed" and in "I would like to have/get my face painted as a falcon".
Also, in 'to chase' in "Dogs like to chase cats." or 'to be' in "Cats like to be chased by dogs." are considered as 'infinitive'. Thus, 'to chase cats' or 'to be chased' cannot be the direct object of 'like'.



Audiendus wrote:
Quote:
A cooperator wrote:
Quote:
6- Comparing the construction of two sentences would result in asking that 'it' must be written after 'have/get' in the second one.
Which animal would you like to have/get your face painted as?
Which program would you need to have/get it installed on your computer?


No, the "it" is wrong. "To have/get" already has an object, i.e. "which program", so it does not need another one. You can see this if we rearrange the words:

"You would need to have/get | which program | installed on your computer?"

(The first sentence is differently constructed. There, "which animal" is the object of the preposition "as", not of the verb "to have/get".)




Then, is the 'your face' the direct of object of 'have/get' in both:

Which animal would you like to have/get your face painted as?
I would like to have/get my face painted as a falcon.

If yes, then to only get the same construction, can I rephrase the above sentence as 'Which animal would you need to have/ get your face painted as"?. Then, 'which animal' is the direct of object of 'as', and 'your face' is the direct object of 'have/get'?



Whoever doesn't own what he promises to those who do not deserve must not promise it.
Audiendus
Posted: Monday, November 27, 2017 10:58:56 PM
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A cooperator wrote:
Is 'need to' here a modal verb?

No.

A cooperator wrote:
So, you decided that 'a program' is the direct object of 'have' in "Is it a program I need to have installed." or in "I need to have this program installed.". However, in "I need a program installed.", or in "Is it a program I need installed.", 'need' is an ordinary verb, and you decided that 'a program' is its direct object'

Yes.

A cooperator wrote:
Audiendus wrote:
A cooperator wrote:
Or even "I need a program installed." .... Where "installed " is an object complement. It complements the direct object "a program".

Yes, this is correct. It is a different construction. Here, "A program" is the direct object of "need".

But you had said before that "I need a program installed." or "is it a program I need installed" would be another way of saying " is it a program I need to have installed". Thus, I am asking where is the equivalence/similarity between them since I see 'need' in the "I need a program installed" or "is it a program I need installed" have 'a program' as its direct object . However, 'have' in "Is it a program I need to have installed" or in "I need to have a program installed" is the one which has 'a program' as its direct object.

They mean the same, but their grammatical construction is different.

A cooperator wrote:
Audiendus wrote:
Yes, if you are referring to the action and not the subsequent state.

What do you mean with 'subsequent state?
I must have asked what 'Subsequent state' means.
I only read "Subsequent states are states that follow a transition. When a transition completes, subsequent states are entered. A subsequent state is represented by an arrow from the transition to the state."

By "subsequent state" I mean the situation after the action. For example:

"I need to have the program installed." If you mean that you need to get it installed, you are referring to the action. If you mean that you need to have it already installed, then you are referring to the subsequent state (the action of installing it happened earlier).

A cooperator wrote:
Audiendus wrote:
A cooperator wrote:
5- What is the direct object for 'need' and 'like'? If "like" is transitive there, and 'Which animal' is the object for the proposition 'as', then what about 'need'?

In the above sentences, the object of "like" is the phrase "to have/get my face painted as a falcon", and the object of "need" is the phrase "to have Odin program installed on my computer".

Then 'like' and 'need' are ordinary verbs, and they are both transitive. However, if anyone had a close look at 'to' following 'like' and 'need', then they would judge that 'like' and 'need' are intransitive verbs since they would consider 'to' as if it was combined with a basic verb 'have/get' to form the infinitive. I think each verb is followed by infinitive('to' + the basic form of a verb) is intransitive. Such as 'to have/get' in 'I need to have/get Odian program installed" "I would like to have/get my face painted as a falcon".
Also, in 'to chase' in "Dogs like to chase cats." or 'to be' in "Cats like to be chased by dogs." are considered as 'infinitive'. Thus, 'to chase cats' or 'to be chased' cannot be the direct object of 'like'.

No, this is wrong. A phrase beginning with to + verb can be a direct object. (What do dogs like? Answer: To chase cats.)

A cooperator wrote:
Audiendus wrote:
A cooperator wrote:
6- Comparing the construction of two sentences would result in asking that 'it' must be written after 'have/get' in the second one.
Which animal would you like to have/get your face painted as?
Which program would you need to have/get it installed on your computer?

No, the "it" is wrong. "To have/get" already has an object, i.e. "which program", so it does not need another one. You can see this if we rearrange the words:

"You would need to have/get | which program | installed on your computer?"
(The first sentence is differently constructed. There, "which animal" is the object of the preposition "as", not of the verb "to have/get".)

Then, is the 'your face' the direct of object of 'have/get' in both:

Which animal would you like to have/get your face painted as? Yes.
I would like to have/get my face painted as a falcon. Yes.

If yes, then to only get the same construction, can I rephrase the above sentence as 'Which animal would you need to have/ get your face painted as"?. Then, 'which animal' is the direct of object of 'as', and 'your face' is the direct object of 'have/get'?

Yes.
A cooperator
Posted: Tuesday, December 05, 2017 6:56:57 PM

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Audiendus wrote:
Quote:

A cooperator wrote:
Quote:
Then, could you please give me the active form of passive bare infinitive underlined in 'I have to be tested'/'I need to be tested.'/Google Chrome needs to be closed to clean the Internet Cache.'/'Google Chrome has to be closed to clean the Internet Cache.'?

Do you think it would be 'I have to have someone to test me', 'I need to have someone to test me.', ' Google Chrome needs to have someone/something to close it to clean the internet Cache.', 'Google Chrome has to have someone/something to close it to clean the internet Cache' in order?


These are almost correct. But "I have/need to have someone to test me" means that you have/need to have someone in order to test you, i.e. someone available to test you. But you don't just want the person to be available - you want them to actually test you! To make this clear, you should omit the 'to': "I have/need to have someone test me".



Thanks a lot, Audiendus, I tried reporting my previous post, but with focusing on the points you said before.

Firstly: As long as "I have/need to have someone to test me" means that you have/need to have someone in order to test you, and to make this clear, I should omit the 'to': "I have/need to have someone test me", why do we not say the active form for "Google Chrome needs to be closed to clean the Internet Cache." and "Google Chrome has to be closed to clean the Internet Cache." would be "Google Chrome needs to have someone/something close it to clean the internet Cache.', 'Google Chrome has to have someone/something close it to clean the internet Cache' in order?

Secondly: Do you think, only in this specific sentence "I have/need to be tested", I should omit the 'to' to make this it clear "I have/need to have someone test me"?
Or this can be applied for any kinds of sentences having the same pattern 'a subject + an obligation verb 'need to/has to/have to' + 'complete passive bare infinitive construction'). For instance,
I need to be laughed. => I need to have someone laugh me.
I need to be taken care of => I need to have someone take care of me.
This country needs to be developed. => This country needs to have someone develop it.





Audiendus wrote:
Quote:

A cooperator wrote:
Quote:
Or do you think it would be 'Someone has to test me.', 'Someone needs to test me.', 'Someone/Something needs to close Google Chrome to clean the Internet Cache.', 'Someone/Something has to close Google Chrome to clean the Internet Cache.' in order?


These are not so good, as they could wrongly be taken to mean that the obligation is on a particular person.




Firstly: You had said before in your first post in this thread that the active form for the passive bare infinitive :"Don't believe it has to be installed" would be "don't believe someone has to install it". - Which was taken to mean that the obligation is on a particular person. I.e. Why did you say that the active form for passive bare infinitive in 'Don't believe it has to be installed' would be 'Don't believe that someone has to install it'. Where you considered as if the whole sentence was in passive form. However, only 'to be installed' is a passive form.
Then, you said that the active forms below are NOT so good since that would be taken to mean that the obligation is on a particular person. This contradicts what you had said before in "Don't believe it has to be installed". I.e. I think there is no difference in passive construction in "Don't believe it has to be installed" and in the sentences below?

I have to be tested. => Someone has to test me.
I need to be tested. => Someone needs to test me.
He has to be tested. => Someone has to test me.
Google Chrome needs to be closed to clean the Internet Cache. => Someone/Something needs to close Google Chrome to clean the Internet Cache.
Google Chrome has to be closed to clean the Internet Cache. => Someone/Something has to close Google Chrome to clean the Internet Cache.


Secondly: Why do we not say that the active form for "don't believe it has to be installed" would be 'don't believe it has to have someone install it." or even "don't believe it has to have someone to install it." as long as the active forms for the following passive bare infinitive constructions are almost correct as you said?
I have to be tested => I have to have someone test me.
I need to be tested. => I need to have someone test me.
Google Chrome needs to be closed to clean the Internet Cache. => Google Chrome needs to have someone/something to close it to clean the internet Cache.
Google Chrome has to be closed to clean the Internet Cache. => Google Chrome has to have someone/something to close it to clean the internet Cache.

Thirdly: You had said before that: "I have to be tested" and "I need to be tested" have similar meanings, but "I have someone to test me" and "I need someone to test me" have quite different meanings. If you have someone to test you, it means that you already have someone who will test you. If you need someone to test you, it means that no arrangement has yet been made for a specific person to test you."

But, as far as I know that the phrase 'to be tested' in "I have to be tested" and "I need to be tested" functions as the object for 'need/have' here. So, I think the active forms for passive infinitive construction would be:
I need someone to test me./I have someone to test me.

But, I don't know why you said that the active forms for 'to be tested' in "I have to be tested" and "I need to be tested" would be: "I need to/have to have someone test me".




Whoever doesn't own what he promises to those who do not deserve must not promise it.
Audiendus
Posted: Tuesday, December 05, 2017 8:54:23 PM
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Joined: 8/24/2011
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As I said before:

Audiendus wrote:
I am sorry, A cooperator, but I cannot spend any more time on this. Your lists of questions keep getting longer, and it would take me many hours to reply to all the detailed points and clear up the various misunderstandings you have.

Perhaps someone else can help.

Please see Drag0nspeaker's post above. I am sorry if you find my replies confusing.

I will not reply to any further questions in this thread.
palapaguy
Posted: Tuesday, December 05, 2017 10:01:08 PM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 10/28/2013
Posts: 495
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Applause Applause Applause
A cooperator
Posted: Thursday, December 07, 2017 10:51:14 AM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 10/27/2011
Posts: 2,420
Neurons: 8,820
Location: Ḩāḑírah, Hadramawt, Yemen
Audiendus wrote:
Quote:


A cooperator wrote:
Quote:
2- the active forms for :"don't believe it has to be installed" => 'don't believe it has someone to install it.'

No, the active form would be "don't believe someone has to install it".


Audiendus,
Only one point still confusing me. Let me make it clearer here below.
You had said above that the active form for the passive bare infinitive :"Don't believe it has to be installed" would be "don't believe someone has to install it". - Which was taken to mean that the obligation is on a particular person. I.e. Why did you say that the active form for passive bare infinitive in 'Don't believe it has to be installed' would be 'Don't believe that someone has to install it'. Where you considered as if the whole sentence was in passive form. However, only 'to be installed' is a passive form.
Then, you said that the active forms below are NOT so good since that would be taken to mean that the obligation is on a particular person. This contradicts what you had said before in "Don't believe it has to be installed". I.e. I think there is no difference in passive construction in "Don't believe it has to be installed" and in the sentences below?

I have to be tested. => Someone has to test me.
I need to be tested. => Someone needs to test me.
He has to be tested. => Someone has to test me.
Google Chrome needs to be closed to clean the Internet Cache. => Someone/Something needs to close Google Chrome to clean the Internet Cache.
Google Chrome has to be closed to clean the Internet Cache. => Someone/Something has to close Google Chrome to clean the Internet Cache.

Whoever doesn't own what he promises to those who do not deserve must not promise it.
A cooperator
Posted: Sunday, December 10, 2017 7:25:16 PM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 10/27/2011
Posts: 2,420
Neurons: 8,820
Location: Ḩāḑírah, Hadramawt, Yemen
Audiendus wrote:
A cooperator wrote:
1- Why do you think we don't say "is it a program I need installed...."

That would be another way of saying it. "To have installed" ("have" in this instance means "get") emphasises the action of getting the program installed.

A cooperator wrote:
2- the active forms for :"don't believe it has to be installed" => 'don't believe it has someone to install it.'

No, the active form would be "don't believe someone has to install it".




Do you think that all of these sentences below follow :Causative structure – HAVE/GET SOMETHING DONE – "cause something to be done by somebody else."
Past participle in the alternatives I have listed below has a passive meaning. But, there is no no complete passive construction.
Do you think "Get/have" in all of these sentences below means 'cause something to be done by somebody else("get/have"( emphasises the action of getting something done.)


I need to have a program installed on my computer. => I need to have someone install a program on my computer.
I need to have my hair cut. => I need to have someone cut my hair.
I need to have my car repaired. => I need to have someone repair my car.
I can't just absorb language by osmosis, I need to have things explained to me and I need to have it repeated. => I can't just absorb language by osmosis, I need to have someone explain things to me and I need to have someone repeat it.
He had / got his hair cut. => He had/got someone cut his hair.
She didn’t have / get her teeth checked. => She didn't have/get someone check her teeth.
I had / got the leak in the roof fixed. => I had/got someone fix the leak in the roof.
Did you have / get the TV repaired? => Did you have/get someone repair the TV?
Harry got himself moved to the New York office. => Harry got someone move him to the New York office.
He gets his production of sports jackets stopped/discontinued.
He has stopped having his production of sports jackets made.
He got his production of sports jackets stopped/discontinued.
He had his production of sports jackets stopped/discontinued.








Whoever doesn't own what he promises to those who do not deserve must not promise it.
Audiendus
Posted: Sunday, December 10, 2017 8:04:25 PM
Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 8/24/2011
Posts: 4,521
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Location: London, England, United Kingdom
A cooperator wrote:
Do you think "Get/have" in all of these sentences below means 'cause something to be done by somebody else("get/have"( emphasises the action of getting something done.)

Yes, provided that the context makes it clear that the sentence refers to an action and not a state. Most of your examples clearly refer to actions, but the first one may refer to a state (see the other thread). The second one usually refers to an action, but could refer to a state (if "cut" means "short").
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