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Robert Mueller files first set of charges Options
Oscar D. Grouch
Posted: Saturday, October 28, 2017 7:53:48 AM

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The first charges have been filed in the investigation led by special counsel Robert Mueller into alleged Russia interference in the 2016 US election, media reports say.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-41786470
Andrew Schultz
Posted: Saturday, October 28, 2017 9:24:54 PM

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Renato Mariotti's tweeting has been a great source of information on what the indictments mean.

https://twitter.com/renato_mariotti/status/924079338219241472


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Andrew Schultz
Posted: Monday, October 30, 2017 5:33:15 PM

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It's Paul Manafort and Richard Gates, which those of us following the news probably already know by now. I wasn't very aware of Gates, but given that he and Manafort ran a consulting company together, it makes sense they're arrested together.

George Papadopoulos also pled guilty to lying to the FBI. He's not one of the big fish, but the language in the legal statements indicate he was very likely wearing a wire.

https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2017/10/30/1710960/-Trump-adviser-George-Papadopolous-pleads-guilty-to-lying-to-the-FBI-about-Trump-Russia-contacts#comment_68176842

Also, the Gates and Manafort indictments? They're not close to the only ones. There are four that have been filed between them.

https://twitter.com/EdKrassen/status/925089679413784577

Hoo boy.

100th person on TFD to 1 million neurons.
Hope123
Posted: Monday, October 30, 2017 10:05:36 PM

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Robert,

The Manafort and Gates indictments are very important to the country, but not so important to the T campaign collusion claims. Right? Was Manafort on the campaign while doing these activities? Although timing aside, it shows the type of associates Trump always seems to have. Manafort's character was known before Trump hired him. Proven Fraudster in Toronto Trump Tower, proven fraudsters in the Trump University scam, alleged contacts with mobsters in construction of casinos etc. Allegedly gets others to do the dirty work? Probably made sure his hands were clean here too if he knew about it?

But the FBI literature I saw about Papadopolous shows actual attempts to collude whether he was small fish or not. So is he more important than the first two men indicted? Especially if he's been talking and helping since July. Don't they usually go after small fish first in these investigations?

What is the protocol for unsealing the indictments? How do they know the 4 sealed they are talking about even relate to the campaign? As you can see I don't know anything about how this all works in the US. Or anywhere for that matter.

:::::::

Semi-Digression relating to other thread about the distraction from these indictments - I was disgusted with the recent tweets showing lynch mob mentality - no matter who is the target - by the sitting president of the United States. It seems more like a banana republic dictator who would beg Republicans, DOJ, ordinary citizens using the second amendment for the second time, everyone in fact, to stop Hillary.

Fox News called for her imprisonment and alluded to execution. Banana republics kill their political opponents. Not the United States of America! I would love to know if those supporting Trump on the forum are fine with these ideas.

It is hilarious that he is still trying to beat an opponent that he defeated a year ago. Hilarious if it weren't so sad. Whether or not there is veracity in the claims against her will not change what his campaign did or did not do.

Time will tell.



It is not the strongest of the species that survive, nor the most intelligent, but the one most responsive to change.
mactoria
Posted: Tuesday, October 31, 2017 1:14:58 AM
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Hope: Can only respond to one of your questions, that of the 4 sealed indictments between the previously sealed indictments of Manafort and Gates. Indictments are of course public information in the US; even if a judge decides to seal them the fact of their sealed existence would be public information. Whether or not these intervening four sealed indictments indeed are related to Russiagate is I think obviously a guess, an educated guess based on the fact that federal indictments aren't sealed that often. Thus, their existence between two Russiagate indictments makes it more likely than not that they're related. But it's also possible they are from some other federal investigation, as there are at any one time a number of federal investigations ongoing in that district court (e.g. tax evasion, bribery of public officials, malfeasance of public office, etc.). I know people are impatient and biased one way or the other, but really we all ought to just let justice take its course, whatever that means: if there are more indictments, sealed or otherwise, we'll be hearing soon enough. As someone who lived through Watergate in my impatient youth, I'm appalled at the media (on all sides of this matter) and the politicians/Administration staff who can't stop speculating and trying to influence the justice process.
Ursus Minor
Posted: Tuesday, October 31, 2017 1:45:47 AM

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What has Russia to do with this money laundering?
The news is that Manafort and Gates were put under house arrest.
What's the use of repeating 'Russia probe', 'Russiagate', 'Russian meddling in the election' 20 times?
It's a rather filthy way of manipulating the public opinion.
Kirill Vorobyov
Posted: Tuesday, October 31, 2017 4:43:05 AM

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Oscar D. Grouch wrote:
The first charges have been filed in the investigation led by special counsel Robert Mueller into alleged Russia interference in the 2016 US election, media reports say.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-41786470


The investigation has apparently hit the wall of reality that pushed it off track altogether, as Manafort is now being charged of lobbying Ukrainian interests years before he ever joined Trump campaign, so this story has nothing to do whatsoever with either Russia or Trump.
Boo hoo!
Hope123
Posted: Tuesday, October 31, 2017 12:20:16 PM

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Thanks, Mactoria. I agree. Patience is necessary and speculation doesn't help. But humans can't seem to stop speculating no matter the topic.

Manafort and Gates are only indictments and not convictions. They probably do not figure much into Trump's alledged collusion except that the money laundering was still going on while he was campaign manager and gives Mueller the power to investigate further afield.

I did not read till this morning that many reputable people had spoken out publicly that they would never work with or for Trump in any business and that is why he ends up with so many disreputable people as I mentioned in the Toronto Tower fiasco and when Canadians got caught up in the Trump University scandal.

However, I read this morning (did not verify) that Papadopolous, who pled guilty with lying to the FBI, says he attended a meeting at Trump Tower and told Trump and then campaign manager about the desire to get emails from Russians to help their campaign. If true, what Trump's response was is not known, but he did not report it to the FBI.

We'll have to wait and see where any of this goes. Russia calls it hysteria but then they would either way. At least it is being investigated properly by reputable prosecutors, unless Trump does as Bannon suggests and cuts off Mueller's funding or fires him. Obstruction?

It is not the strongest of the species that survive, nor the most intelligent, but the one most responsive to change.
Andrew Schultz
Posted: Wednesday, November 01, 2017 1:24:37 AM

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This is just the first few pieces of the puzzle. I'll give our, umm, skeptical posters the benefit of the doubt and explain that this isn't how grand jury indictments work in the USA. Often, there are smaller charges at first, indicating that the prosecutors know what's up and are giving people time to flip. Giving away too much would be like yelling "I HAVE FOUR OF A KIND!" at the poker table. Robert Mueller isn't one to brag. He's a smart man.

Folks saying there's nothing there are conveniently overlooking the news about George Papadopoulous already having been arrested and focusing on Manafort and Gates. The money laundering is where it starts. Then you follow the money. Watergate had a similar pattern.

And as for Ukrainian interests? Those were about bringing Viktor Yanukovich to power and keeping him. Yanukovich, the crooked pro-Russia former president. So all this is already known, and in fact, it doesn't seem to help any claims Russia is simon-pure.

With what Manafort did before Trump took him on, Trump at the very least looks very stupid for hiring Manafort.

100th person on TFD to 1 million neurons.
Ursus Minor
Posted: Wednesday, November 01, 2017 5:46:49 AM

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Andrew Schultz wrote:
it doesn't seem to help any claims Russia is simon-pure.



So far there's no evidence that Russia is the source of evil either.
Hope123
Posted: Wednesday, November 01, 2017 9:46:18 AM

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https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2017/07/magnitsky-act-kremlin/535044/

"Last June, Natalia Veselnitskaya, a Russian lawyer, met with Donald Trump Jr., Paul Manafort, and Jared Kushner to discuss restarting adoptions (in her telling). In reality, she was there to talk about undoing the Magnitsky Act...
The Magnitsky Act was the blueprint, in other words, for the big sanctions that came in 2014."


And then Trump allegedly told Russia if he was elected he would change the sanctions somehow to help Russia. What Trump and his campaign did is the issue in this discussion, not what Russia did or didn't do. I am pretty sure every country has tried in some way to affect the outcome of the leadership race in any country in which they have a vested interest. But it is in the interest of the attacked country to protect itself by finding out what happened and how to prevent future similar incidents if possible.

However, I would like to hear from Russian Freedelfians who actually lived there in the recent past about the description in the article of what happened within Russia itself concerning the accusations that the "New Russian Nobility" wiped out small and medium businesses, stealing from the people and laundering the money out of the country. They are angry about the Magnitsky Act because they can't get the money out of Russia to enjoy it.

Did this affect you? Did you see it happening in your country? I'm curious as to the veracity from an insider's view.



It is not the strongest of the species that survive, nor the most intelligent, but the one most responsive to change.
philips daughter
Posted: Wednesday, November 01, 2017 9:47:33 AM

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First off, Mueller, the FBI and CIA and even senators, the peole from Facebook and Twitter all say there is evidence of Russia planting false stories. So for my money, I’m betting it did and does happen. But remember, (Russia isn’t on trial so, keep your nose in joint). Not just US elections but, France as well. They planted stories constructed to inspire fear, distrust and hatred. What is sad is that we are still chasing that distraction. I don’t think the outcome of the investigation will matter. If it is proved that Trump has colluded with the Russians, his supporters wouldn’t care. If every story Trump has told were proven a lie, he wouldn’t apologize. And if he were to be impeached, his supporters would say it was a Democratic coup. He and his supporters are intent on dismantling the government. And democrats are such a joke. Not one new idea from them. They want to go back and don’t know there is no “back” to go to. Unless the democrats can unite the people they to will fail. I think they fail because they have no room for just regular folks. No I don’t believe abortion is right and in my life I would NEVER have made that decision. If I had been someone else, I might think differently. And I’m good with that. But, if you say I have religious beliefs then the Democrats reject you. I am frustrated beyond belief.

It rained last night so, I didn’t give away much Halloween candy. I’m going to go donate it at the my credit union and they will send it to the troops, God bless them all.
Hope123
Posted: Wednesday, November 01, 2017 9:50:44 AM

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This is an article in the Toronto Star this morning about how and why the Magnitsky Act was born and its consequences to a man called Bill Browder.

https://www.thestar.com/news/world/2017/10/31/indictments-of-trump-aides-a-sign-americas-immune-system-is-working-perfectly-anti-putin-crusader-bill-browder-says-in-toronto.html

"The Russian government is out to get me and wants me dead,” he says, matter-of-fact. Dead like Browder’s former Russian tax lawyer, Sergei Magnitsky, who was imprisoned and beaten to death after flagging a constellation of corruption in Russia seven years ago. Browder remains haunted by the whistleblower’s death and has rededicated what remains of his life to the cause of justice for Magnitsky.
Browder, 53, has long been aware of the Kremlin fury over his crusade. But even he was shocked when repeal of the Magnitsky Act was raised as the pre-eminent goal in stories emerging from Russian encounters with the Trump campaign during the 2016 U.S. presidential election.
“My battle with Russia seems to be intensifying. I knew they hated the Maginsky sanctions, I didn’t realize it was at the centre of everything involving the Russians and Trump. Scary.”
...“It changed my life forever when a man was slowly tortured to death at the age of 35 just because he was my proxy. How do you get over that? They killed Sergei Magnitsky in the most horrific way and then they covered it up. It was unforgivable and for my own personal psychological reasons I had to take up the fight."



It is not the strongest of the species that survive, nor the most intelligent, but the one most responsive to change.
Kirill Vorobyov
Posted: Thursday, November 02, 2017 7:48:51 AM

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Andrew Schultz wrote:
This is just the first few pieces of the puzzle. I'll give our, umm, skeptical posters the benefit of the doubt and explain that this isn't how grand jury indictments work in the USA. Often, there are smaller charges at first, indicating that the prosecutors know what's up and are giving people time to flip. Giving away too much would be like yelling "I HAVE FOUR OF A KIND!" at the poker table. Robert Mueller isn't one to brag. He's a smart man.


Okay, the poker face is there, the deuce is on the table, may we see at last what his hand is.

Andrew Schultz wrote:

And as for Ukrainian interests? Those were about bringing Viktor Yanukovich to power and keeping him. Yanukovich, the crooked pro-Russia former president. So all this is already known, and in fact, it doesn't seem to help any claims Russia is simon-pure.


Unfortunately Yanukovich is as pro-Russia as Artur Mas and Putchdimon are pro-Spain. Slow cowardly desintegrators.
Hope123
Posted: Friday, November 03, 2017 1:26:58 PM

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Decent democracies are all fighting corruption of foreign officials in Russia and other countries. Edited - on Twitter by Michael Collins -

"We fight corruption with transparency.
Can not hide in darkness any longer.
Expose."



"BREAKING: Canada sanctions 52 individuals from Russia, South Sudan & Venezuela on the basis of new Magnitsky Act

international.gc.ca

Justice for Victims of Corrupt Foreign Officials Regulations

An individual whose name is listed in the schedule is a foreign national who, in the opinion of the Governor in Council, has committed an act set out in subsection 4(2) of the Justice for Victims of Corrupt Foreign Officials Act (Sergei Magnitsky Law).


Foreign Nationals
Nicolás MADURO MOROS
Tareck Zaidan EL AISSAMI MADDAH
Gustavo Enrique GONZÁLEZ LÓPEZ
Adán Coromoto CHÁVEZ FRÍAS
Luis Ramón REYES REYES
Rocco ALBISINNI SERRANO
Alejandro Antonio FLEMING CABRERA
Rafael Darío RAMÍREZ CARREÑO
Carlos Alberto OSORIO ZAMBRANO
Luis Alfredo MOTTA DOMÍNGUEZ
José Vicente RANGEL ÁVALOS
Eulogio Antonio DEL PINO DÍAZ
Nelson José MERENTES DÍAZ
José David CABELLO RONDÓN
Rodolfo Clemente MARCO TORRES
José Gregorio VIELMA MORA
Francisco José RANGEL GÓMEZ
Ricardo Antonio MOLINA PEÑALOZA
Argenis de Jesús CHÁVEZ FRÍAS
Aleksey Vasilyevich ANICHIN
Alexander Ivanovich BASTRYKIN
Aleksey DROGANOV
Alexandra Viktorovna GAUS
Stanislav Evgenievich GORDIEVSKY
Victor Yakovlevich GRIN
Pavel KARPOV
Yelena KHIMINA
Vyacheslav Georgievich KHLEBNIKOV
Dmitry Vladislavovich KLYUEV
Dmitriy KOMNOV
Dmitry Borisovich KRATOV
Andrei Alexandrovich KRECHETOV
Aleksey KRIVORUCHKO
Artem KUZNETSOV
Larisa Anatolievna LITVINOVA
Oleg LOGUNOV
Viktor Aleksandrovich MARKELOV
Andrey PECHEGIN
Gennady Nikolaevich PLAKSIN
Sergei PODOPRIGOROV
Ivan Pavlovitch PROKOPENKO
Oleg SILCHENKO
Yelena STASHINA
Olga STEPANOVA
Vladlen Yurievich STEPANOV
Fikret TAGIYEV
Dmitri TOLCHINSKIY
Svetlana UKHNALYOVA
Natalya VINOGRADOVA
Paul MALONG AWAN
Malek Reuben RIAK RENGU
Michael MAKUEI LUETH"


It is not the strongest of the species that survive, nor the most intelligent, but the one most responsive to change.
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