If a creator can come from nothing or have always been there then the universe can come from nothing or have always been there. Apparently quantum physics can throw light on this subject (an observed tendency of stuff to come from nowhere I believe), but who's an expert on that?
As for snakes: complex organisms springing into existence is for all intents and purposes impossible, but self-replicating molecules (DNA-type stuff) forming and evolving into complex organisms is very possible in a universe with almost an infinity of opportunities for that to happen.

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The opposite of hatred is love; the opposite of tyranny is love; the opposite of censorship is love; the opposite of evil is love; the opposite of politics is love; the opposite of war is love; the opposite of god is love.–– Salman Rushdie
Broadly speaking, it is held that getting money is good and spending money is bad. Seeing that they are two sides of one transaction, this is absurd; one might as well maintain that keys are good, but keyholes are bad. Whatever merit there may be in the production of goods must be entirely derivative from the advantage to be obtained by consuming them. –Bertrand Russell
Never believe a liar. Papa, angry people burn our home.

If the origin of life or universe was from nonliving substances or living substances, then where were these forming substances from?

If things were formed from other things then this universe must have an infinite age.

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Every design has a designer

Did you mean a finite age? That would make more sense to me if one were arguing that things/animals have steadily become more complex, then on that basis there must have been a "first" one, - which points to a finite age; which I think all the scientific evidence suggests. Or have I misread you?

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"The voice of the majority is no proof of justice." - Schiller

I have an opinion that the universe has a start. Things (living or non living) have first ones.
If things/animal were from other things then there was no beginning (infinite). Am I right?

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Every design has a designer

You need to separate living and non-living, as the living things arose from non-living things and are therefore knowably finite. When you get into the issue of non-living things and the origin of this universe things become trickier, did this universe have a beginning? Yes Will this universe end? Currently unknown. Is it infinite? By the one definition of infinite, yes, this concept becomes incredibly complex though, and is very much tied up in the expansion of the universe.


To answer this question is no simple matter. What do you mean by "things"? What constitutes "no things"? Would you consider the universe with only energy within it as having nothing in it? You've probably seen the famous Einsteinian statement E=mc^2, this means that at the most fundamental level all matter (things) is composed of energy. I am sorry that I currently have no idea how to explain this simply, my grasp of quantum mechanics, (the physics of subatomic structure), is sufficient to understanding its validity; however not to being able to explain it to someone who has not investigated it at all.
Sorry rambled away there, let's get back to the universe, and the question of its infiniteness.
Currently the "Big Bang Theory" has tremendous support, so in the way you seem to be using the word infinite, this universe does not qualify as it had a beginning; however, that beginning was not from nothing, something went 'bang". What that something was is still a hypothetical matter, as far as I know. One possibility is that a universe similar to this one existed before, expanded to some maximum, then collapsed again to a point of infinite singularity, which then exploded and is expanding again, and this process could have been going on for infinity.
So then to address what I believe to be your original question, does your argument constitute a reasonable cause for belief in a creator? No, in my opinion belief in a creator is a matter of faith, and faith requires a suspension of reason.

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Sorry Peter but I did not say that to practice Christianity meant to empty one's head. I did word my last sentence a bit poorly, allow me to adjust it somewhat.

I have since first becoming familiar with him, considered the Apostle Paul to be a genius, his exposition of New Testament doctrine is brilliant.
That belief in God is not subject to reason, is in my opinion thoroughly consistent with the attributes of God, the nature of fallen man, and the "Word of God." Man's reason can not bring him to God, only God through the work of the Holy Spirit can bring man to himself. All this was my opinion when I believed, taught, and preached the Gospel for seven years. I did not mean the last sentence of my last post to be a degradation.

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GoD - Generator of Diversity
DoG - Delusions of Grandeur

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Forgiving is Love, Love is For Giving.

Blooper wrote:

Epiphileon wrote:

So then to address what I believe to be your original question, does your argument constitute a reasonable cause for belief in a creator? No, in my opinion belief in a creator is a matter of faith, and faith requires a suspension of reason.

I don't know. It just hard (for me) to believe that this complicated universe is exist without the Creator "the Super Magician". Our body system, our eye, heart. Who is the inventor or the designer? none?

Hi Blooper,

This topic is always up for discussion and TFD forum has travelled this path at some length - welcome to the fold - I have always believed God created this universe by speaking it into being.

Some professing Christians like to believe that the unproven theory of evolution can be used to explain God's method of creation, over vast periods of time.

This would have involved pre-human death, but a Bible-believer knows this is contrary to Romans 5:12-14 which states that as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: (13) (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law. (14) Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of Him that was to come.

Some highly qualified scientists admit and teach that science has no business trying to explain how existence came about from non-existence. I agree with this, it is beyond the scope of science.

Try and measure the infinite expanse that the Universe is in. It is beyond measure.

Try and provide scientific evidence of nothing existing prior to creation. It is impossible.

Accept that the Universe is in the Presence of God and the Presence of God is in the Universe. Now that is possible.

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Job 33:15 "In a dream, in a vision of the night, When deep sleep falls upon men, In slumberings upon the bed;" Theology 101 "If He doesn't know everything then He isn't God."