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Romany
Posted: Wednesday, October 18, 2017 6:57:43 AM
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Location: Brighton, England, United Kingdom

Buzzito: - "Developed countries with more guns also have more gun deaths and more violence overall because of easy access to a weapon..."

There is *no* other *developed* country where citizens carry guns; except for farmers etc. There is *no* other *developed* country where more than four citizens at a time are shot every day of the year. There is *no* other *developed* country where citizens distrust their democracy so little that it is considered a *Right* to carry guns to use specifically to protect them from their leaders.

A 'developed' country is not the same as an 'industrial' nation. *Developed* doesn't just refer to infrastructure, or the means of production. It refers to human/societal development. Which includes culture, societal mores, breaking down old-fashioned tropes of violence and racism, sexism etc. etc.

If you honestly are unaware of the way the rest of the world works, Buzzito, then it would seem that you are also unaware of WHY the rest of the world - apart from repressive regimes - are so appalled and disgusted with Trump.This damaged person is not content with trashing his own economy, culture and society, but is trying to engage all the rest of us in his fight against progress, development, peace and tolerance.
TheParser
Posted: Wednesday, October 18, 2017 7:26:52 AM
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Drag0nspeaker wrote:
Hi Parser!



As you say, many of his illustrations are funny and fitting.



Hi, DragOnspeaker:

Hope everything is going well in beautiful Scotland. (Here in the States, we're having one of our periodic witch hunts. The latest victim is a hapless movie producer.)

Yes, his illustrations are great!

The members of my local library group say hello. They owe so much to you for your great posts in this website's gems, i.e., the "Vocabulary" and "Grammar" forums.



Have a nice Hump Day (Wednesday)!
philips daughter
Posted: Wednesday, October 18, 2017 8:31:06 AM

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Just a question. What time do libraries open in California? According to my calculations “certain people” who claim to be at a library when they post post at 6am (approximately) here in Texas which would make it 4am in California. D—n Daniel! What time does the library open?
Jyrkkä Jätkä
Posted: Thursday, October 19, 2017 4:36:33 AM

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Joined: 9/21/2009
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Location: Helsinki, Southern Finland Province, Finland
List of countries by estimated number of guns per capita

Rank Country Guns per hundred residents

1 United States 101
2 Serbia 58.21
3 Yemen 54.8
4 Cyprus 36.4
5 Saudi Arabia 35
6 Finland 34.2
7 Iraq 34.2
8 Uruguay 31.8
9 Norway 31.3
10 France 31.2
11 Canada 30.8
12 Austria 30.4
13 Iceland 30.3
14 Germany 30.3
15 Oman 25.5
16 Bahrain 24.8
17 Kuwait 24.8
18 Switzerland 24.45
19 Republic of Macedonia 24.1
20 Australia 24.1

In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.
IMcRout
Posted: Thursday, October 19, 2017 4:57:55 AM

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Location: Lübeck, Schleswig-Holstein, Germany
Oh Parser. With your 'hapless movie producer' you probably mean Mr. Weinstein, who has apparently conducted his own 'bitch-hunt' (sorry for the bad pun) for years and now gets his comeuppance.
The strange thing about it is that is happening now that he has begun to lose a lot of his influence.

Don't despair, though. The USA have a lot of experience with witch-hunting.

I totally take back all those times I didn't want to nap when I was younger. (Anon)
TheParser
Posted: Thursday, October 19, 2017 5:48:26 AM
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IMcRout wrote:
The USA have a lot of experience with witch-hunting.




Yes, that is an accurate statement.


(Just a gentle and respectful reminder: Since the Civil War / War Between the States (1861 - 1865), Americans have used the singular verb to refer to their country.)
Drag0nspeaker
Posted: Thursday, October 19, 2017 8:53:36 AM

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Location: Livingston, Scotland, United Kingdom
TheParser wrote:
Since the Civil War / War Between the States (1861 - 1865), Americans have used the singular verb to refer to their country.)
Ah, but . . . this is about the people of America.
There are more than one person in the USA, and each will have a different amount of experience.
Unless you want to consider "The state is everything, the individual nothing", "All for the the fatherland/motherland", "Workers of America, Unite!"



Wyrd bið ful aræd - bull!
philips daughter
Posted: Thursday, October 19, 2017 9:30:32 AM

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Europe has a witch-hunting, burning legacy, too. Oh, and those pilgrims, they were European. In fact if all of the Europeans had stayed home and learned to get along, we wouldn’t be having the problems we have now (IMO). So, let’s don’t go down that rabbit hole. It doesn’t add anything.
Hope123
Posted: Thursday, October 19, 2017 12:13:59 PM

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Weinstein himself has admitted it. It is no "witch hunt".

He tried to call it "sex addiction" - it is about POWER, not sex.

Males (or females) who consider Weinstein's employment demise a witch hunt and are sympathetic with him either don't know the whole story or are in agreement with his actions.

To add to the story, an Italian actress came forward about Weinstein too. An Italian politician said, "She should just have said, 'No'. An Italian newspaper headlined "First they put out, then they whine".

Amazing all this s**t is still happening in 2017!





Until he extends the circle of his compassion to all living things, man will not himself find peace. Albert Schweitzer
Hope123
Posted: Thursday, October 19, 2017 12:15:31 PM

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A couple of interesting facts about the term witch hunt:

I checked to see why a male is called a witch. Apparently Weinstein could NOW be called a warlock. Whistle He has been removed from the Academy. Now the Academy has to decide what to do with others such as Bill Cosby.

To call a male witch, a warlock is highly offensive. A warlock is a witch, male, or female who has been locked out of his or her coven, and the members of the group have turned their backs on the individual labeled as a warlock, because they feel that their tradition, or the craft was in someway betrayed.

That "warlock hunt" should have happened many years ago. I was shocked to hear Hitchcock allegedly would be in a similar category, as would other powerful men in many industries and workplaces.

The hashtag #metoo is turning up many women who have just kept quiet and the percentage of females who have been harassed or attacked all over the world is growing. Dirty old men is what my generation called them.

:::

Edited - I just checked to see what the topic of the OP is - many of the so-called mentally disturbed shooters in mass killings were known to be rejected by their peers, and often were frustrated in their efforts to get female companions, so took out their anger on others. Weinstein et al used their power instead.

The quest to stop the violence is multi dimensional as Listening mentioned, and my contention is that you don't throw away one way that might help. As PD says, the other solutions require healthcare, including mental healthcare, and socio-economic improvements. It seems the money is still to flow to the rich and powerful, and not to those who feel left out.

The only recourse for a citizen of any democracy is to communicate any concerns to your representatives, and change your vote next time if necessary.

Until he extends the circle of his compassion to all living things, man will not himself find peace. Albert Schweitzer
Drag0nspeaker
Posted: Thursday, October 19, 2017 1:08:58 PM

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Location: Livingston, Scotland, United Kingdom
Hi philip's daughter.

We've gone completely off topic by this second page.
The last four 'posts' are more 'banter' - good humoured conversation.

The original message of this thread was rather more serious, and I would have expected agreement in condolence, but the very first reply was a sarcastic, laughing jibe about the deaths - and the thread never really recovered.

So back to the original subject of a mass killing.

I have just discovered that the news reports that this was the biggest-ever are actually far from true.

The Smithsonian reports that 150 people were killed in one attack - they were militia trying to defend the seat of government in Colfax, Louisiana and were attacked by terrorists and all killed. It isn't counted usually because they were not all killed with guns and it was not a single 'shooter', but a mob. Also they were all black and the killers were all white.

Another incident in East St Louis was larger - but it consisted of several sub-massacres over three days, so the couple of hundred people killed don't count as a "mass killing". Again, it was a riot of white people killing blacks.

Of course, going back, there are much larger massacres of Native Americans - but 'these don't count' because they are classed as 'acts of war' - even though most of the people killed didn't even know they were supposed to be at war.

North America is not unique - it's the same everywhere. Genghis Khan depopulated and reforested so much land that he personally reduced the carbon levels by significant amounts (reportedly more than would be saved by using NO cars for twelve months).
The South and Central American natives have their own history of mountains of skulls.

One point about recent history is - it's not ONE mass killing, it's 370 in 365 days in one country.
Another thing is - it was fifty people killed in fifteen minutes by ONE madman.
The 'shock-value' comes from the volume and speed together, I think.

This leads to protest against automatic, 'many bullets per second' weapons which can't be controlled properly, even by someone trying to defend rather than kill. The number of 'bystanders' shot by someone defending themselves with an AK or 'autimatised rifle' would be horrendous!

*****************
There are two common factors in all the mass shootings over the last couple of years at least.

First is obviously guns.
You can't have shootings without guns . . .

The second is less obvious.
I believe all (it's definitely almost all) of the 'shooters' had recently been given a drug which is known to have the side effect of irrational violence and suicidal tendencies.

This guy - Stephen Paddock - wa started on a course of Diazepam in June.
This is a description:
Quote:
Records from the Nevada Prescription Monitoring Program obtained Tuesday show Paddock was prescribed 50 10-milligram diazepam tablets by Henderson physician Dr. Steven Winkler on June 21.
Diazepam is a sedative-hypnotic drug in the class of drugs known as benzodiazepines, which studies have shown can trigger aggressive behavior. Chronic use or abuse of sedatives such as diazepam can also trigger psychotic experiences, according to drugabuse.com.
“If somebody has an underlying aggression problem and you sedate them with that drug, they can become aggressive,” said Dr. Mel Pohl, chief medical officer of the Las Vegas Recovery Center. “It can disinhibit an underlying emotional state. … It is much like what happens when you give alcohol to some people … they become aggressive instead of going to sleep.”
Pohl, who spoke to the Review-Journal from the Netherlands, said the effects of the drug also can be magnified by alcohol.
A 2015 study published in World Psychiatry of 960 Finnish adults and teens convicted of homicide showed that their odds of killing were 45 percent higher during time periods when they were on benzodiazepines.
A year earlier, the Australian and New Zealand Journal of Psychiatry published a study titled, “Benzodiazepine Use and Aggressive Behavior.” The authors wrote: “It appears that benzodiazepine use is moderately associated with subsequent aggressive behavior.”
Las Vegas Review-Journal

I realise this is from a newspaper, so may not be accurate, but it does agree with non-media data I have seen.

Control of who can have automatic weapons does not constitute the government banning the public from having guns.
There's a difference.


Wyrd bið ful aræd - bull!
Hope123
Posted: Thursday, October 19, 2017 2:18:14 PM

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Drago, if true about most killers being on that drug, then what do we do? How does the medical field know who will react the opposite way to what helps many others? This would have to be diagnosed by the person taking it and they would have to get their doctor to change the drug.

Paddock seemed rational and even sent his girlfriend money so his aggression was not observed by others. I expect the prescribing doctor didn't see it and I would hope that doctors warn their patients before giving them the prescription that they need to return if they start feeling that way.

Do the side effects happen often enough that the drug should be pulled and the many lose out to the few?

I also mentioned lack of sleep in our society, the self medicating by many other drugs, and the statistics showing many in prisons have ADD. I wonder if statistics have been calculated on ADD in any of the killers and mass killers.

Wouldn't it be great if this one drug were a simple answer as fo "Why"?

Until he extends the circle of his compassion to all living things, man will not himself find peace. Albert Schweitzer
Absinthius
Posted: Friday, October 20, 2017 3:37:48 AM

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Diazepam is a very broadly used drug that has been around for a long time. It is most known under the name Valium. Considering that this drug is used in many many countries, I think trying to pin any of this on Diazepam is a bit of a stretch. These kind of mass shootings seem to be much more prevalent in the US as compared to other parts of the Western world.
Unless prescriptions for benzodiazepines in the US are somehow more potent than in other parts of the world (I doubt that). I know quite a few people in the Netherlands that take this drug, it is very broadly used. Yet there luckily are not that many random, unprovoked acts of mass-killings in this country.

Not speaking for Drago, more as a general observation. It seems that people from the US go to great lenghts to find any kind of argument to claim that guns are not the problem. It is baffling, as I'm convinced that no other Western country has this strange obsession with owning tools made specifically for killing.

It's the easy acces to guns that is the biggest factor. The experiment has been done, we know this. There is a good reason that the entire Western world minus one does not allow for mass gun ownership.

Look, how about this? Let's pretend we've had the row and I've won. See? It saves a lot of effort.
TheParser
Posted: Friday, October 20, 2017 5:31:14 AM
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Drag0nspeaker wrote:




Hello, DragOnspeaker:

Our fellow member wrote that the United States have a lot of experience with witch hunting.

As one of the leading lights (perhaps the leading light) of our highly respected "Grammar" forum, you probably would recommend to learners that they use "has."




Have a nice day!
Hope123
Posted: Friday, October 20, 2017 7:36:24 AM

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The "Lancet" medical news arrived this morning with this article in it. This is one solution to try to find answers but it does not say how to overcome the politics. You would think citizens of both parties would be for rescinding these laws even if the politicians are divided?

Mind Numbing Las Vegas Hides Gun Debate Open Secret

"...the Dickey Amendment, federal law that bans funding for most gun violence research, effectively stopping the CDC (since 1996) and National Institutes of Health (NIH; since 2012) from examining gun violence and ways to prevent it...The NIH previously took advantage of loopholes to fund research, but under President Trump, US$18 million in research grants have expired, a move Senate Democrats called on the NIH to reverse. If it were any other subject, the idea of the federal government closing its eyes on research of 2015's tenth largest cause of death would be a scandal.

The legal restriction on funding gun violence research is one of the most objectionable aspects of the already entirely objectionable gun control debate in the USA. In the wake of Las Vegas, policy makers and gun control advocates should be looking strongly at rescinding the abhorrent and nonsensical legal restrictions that keep the USA ignorant of the true toll of its gun violence."


Until he extends the circle of his compassion to all living things, man will not himself find peace. Albert Schweitzer
Absinthius
Posted: Friday, October 20, 2017 8:17:39 AM

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A brilliantly comical and, in my humble opinion, very well considered take on this topic is presented by John Oliver. For those who havent seen this, it is surprisingly informative!

He also talks about the Dicey amendmet that Hope mentioned in the post above.

Edit: Accidental typo in the name of the amendment, but it fits too well to correct.

Look, how about this? Let's pretend we've had the row and I've won. See? It saves a lot of effort.
Hope123
Posted: Friday, October 20, 2017 9:18:04 PM

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Accidental typo in the name of the amendment, but it fits too well to correct. Applause

Good video Abs. He certainly has a point about how one needs to follow up with calls to reps all the time to remind them what you're trying to change - in this case just the chance to do research on prevention of violence. It's not even gun control so should be amenable to that 70% who favor a few changes (even some NRA members) no matter the party affiliation.

But it is good advice for whatever you want changed - you have to follow up and follow up and have commitment to your agenda.

Until he extends the circle of his compassion to all living things, man will not himself find peace. Albert Schweitzer
Hope123
Posted: Saturday, October 28, 2017 1:40:03 AM

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I can't believe this! What kind of people believe conspiracy theories!

https://www.thestar.com/news/world/2017/10/27/canadian-man-injured-in-las-vegas-shooting-slammed-with-death-threats-online.html

Until he extends the circle of his compassion to all living things, man will not himself find peace. Albert Schweitzer
Drag0nspeaker
Posted: Monday, October 30, 2017 11:46:36 PM

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TheParser wrote:
Hello, DragOnspeaker:

Our fellow member wrote that the United States have a lot of experience with witch hunting.
. . . you probably would recommend to learners that they use "has."

To be honest, no.
I would use the plural. I realise that this is not how most Americans think (it's not you personally, it is a 'cultural and traditional' American trait to consider groups of people to be a singular mass, rather than individuals) but it is how many others think.

It is the people who each have experience, rather than the non-thinking "State" which has experience.

Also (and this is purely a consideration of the way it sounds) "States" is plural, so it sort of sounds better with a plural verb . . .Anxious

************
That, Hope, is one of the most ridiculous things I've even heard. (Well, 'ridiculous' and 'ludicrous' are not quite the right words as they express some idea of amusement, but I can't think of a better word.)

There are accusations of government cover-ups which have some logic, so one could see how someone may believe them (maybe they're true!).
But this one has no logic.

Wyrd bið ful aræd - bull!
Hope123
Posted: Wednesday, November 01, 2017 11:28:11 AM

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Too early after the Las Vegas massacre to talk gun control. But not too early the day after a truck attack to politicize immigration by a presidential tweet.

Update - Trump blamed Schumer for the man in the truck attack being in the country through a Diversity Lottery program of 1990 when H W Bush was president (modelled on earlier programs).

GOP Sen. Jeff Flake took to Twitter to fact-check President Trump after he blamed Chuck Schumer for the NYC terror attack, tweeting: “Actually, the Gang of 8, including Sen. Schumer, did away with the Diversity Visa Program as part of broader reforms. I know, I was there.”

Digression -
I have mentioned before on here that my husband and I actually won a green card in that lottery. And we went through expensive vetting hoops to be declared fit. However, when we found out the timing and US taxes were very disadvantageous to us, we decided not to activate. But the main factor that swayed us in the end was losing our healthcare and being dumped by US insurance companies. My husband has had three major and a couple of minor surgeries since then so we are so glad we changed our minds even if we wasted a lot of money then. What is happening there now makes us doubly glad we stayed put.


Until he extends the circle of his compassion to all living things, man will not himself find peace. Albert Schweitzer
Hope123
Posted: Wednesday, November 15, 2017 4:33:48 PM

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It was mentioned on a Talk show today that the media did not even do their usual interruption to report the last two mass shootings since the Las Vegas one because the "down" count was not as big and sensational as the Las Vegas or the Orlando shootings. "Only five" people dead in California today. The American host then asked if America had become inured to the shootings and the California shooting was "just another day in America".

It would have been worse if the protocol for the lockdown of an elementary school had not been in place.



Until he extends the circle of his compassion to all living things, man will not himself find peace. Albert Schweitzer
Hope123
Posted: Wednesday, November 15, 2017 8:23:04 PM

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Wow. This just in. Let's hope!

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/politics-news/senators-near-bipartisan-deal-gun-control-sources-say-n821256



Until he extends the circle of his compassion to all living things, man will not himself find peace. Albert Schweitzer
progpen
Posted: Tuesday, November 21, 2017 7:23:19 AM

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Logical and reasonable (to normal human beings) gun control cannot happen in the US until the money is removed from the equation. Right now the conservatives are making far too much money running against gun control, for them to ever even consider discussing it. Also, with the highly gerrymandered regions of the country safely in conservative hands, they know they are safe through elections far into the future.

They have succeeded in removing humanity from the equation, which makes it all the more easier to reduce the violence to "the cost of doing business". They also understand that a fearful constituency is one that will reliably vote against their own best interests, so they directly benefit from every mass shooting.

Mental health issues cannot be addressed in the US because the people are far too ill-informed about mental health issues to make even the most basic reasonable choices for themselves or loved ones, that and the health care insurance industry has successfully created the environment where even the most basic health care is unattainable to millions.

Guns are good for conservative politics and for the US arms industry.

Be kind but be fierce. You are needed now more than ever before. Take up the mantel of change. For this is your time.
Listening . . .
Posted: Monday, November 27, 2017 8:28:45 PM

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Absinthius wrote:
Diazepam is a very broadly used drug that has been around for a long time. It is most known under the name Valium. Considering that this drug is used in many many countries, I think trying to pin any of this on Diazepam is a bit of a stretch. These kind of mass shootings seem to be much more prevalent in the US as compared to other parts of the Western world.
Unless prescriptions for benzodiazepines in the US are somehow more potent than in other parts of the world (I doubt that). I know quite a few people in the Netherlands that take this drug, it is very broadly used. Yet there luckily are not that many random, unprovoked acts of mass-killings in this country.

Not speaking for Drago, more as a general observation. It seems that people from the US go to great lenghts to find any kind of argument to claim that guns are not the problem. It is baffling, as I'm convinced that no other Western country has this strange obsession with owning tools made specifically for killing.

It's the easy acces to guns that is the biggest factor. The experiment has been done, we know this. There is a good reason that the entire Western world minus one does not allow for mass gun ownership.



I wouldn’t rule out the benzo side effect/ withdrawal / recovery as factor. Do some research where the patients are the guide - not the pharmaceutical companies. Listen (LISTEN!) to these stories- https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=5SNRxxyIwIg
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=iu_i0e-ceoA
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=P86ilnhxs0k
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=0Lfz3ztBebI
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=NLp6PLC9sEw

Thousands more...

The research has yet to be started on this class of meds.
Drag0nspeaker
Posted: Tuesday, November 28, 2017 12:36:52 AM

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Though it may not reach the headlines in the USA (as it is "over there" in foreign-land) - this overshadows Las Vegas with over 300 killed.

Wyrd bið ful aræd - bull!
Absinthius
Posted: Tuesday, November 28, 2017 3:23:58 AM

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Listening . . . wrote:
Absinthius wrote:
Diazepam is a very broadly used drug that has been around for a long time. It is most known under the name Valium. Considering that this drug is used in many many countries, I think trying to pin any of this on Diazepam is a bit of a stretch. These kind of mass shootings seem to be much more prevalent in the US as compared to other parts of the Western world.
Unless prescriptions for benzodiazepines in the US are somehow more potent than in other parts of the world (I doubt that). I know quite a few people in the Netherlands that take this drug, it is very broadly used. Yet there luckily are not that many random, unprovoked acts of mass-killings in this country.

Not speaking for Drago, more as a general observation. It seems that people from the US go to great lenghts to find any kind of argument to claim that guns are not the problem. It is baffling, as I'm convinced that no other Western country has this strange obsession with owning tools made specifically for killing.

It's the easy acces to guns that is the biggest factor. The experiment has been done, we know this. There is a good reason that the entire Western world minus one does not allow for mass gun ownership.



I wouldn’t rule out the benzo side effect/ withdrawal / recovery as factor. Do some research where the patients are the guide - not the pharmaceutical companies. Listen (LISTEN!) to these stories- https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=5SNRxxyIwIg
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=iu_i0e-ceoA
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=P86ilnhxs0k
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=0Lfz3ztBebI
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=NLp6PLC9sEw

Thousands more...

The research has yet to be started on this class of meds.


Just to be clear, the point of my post was to state that even the worst side effects of this drug are in no way to blame for mass shootings. A mass shooting like this one takes plannin and preparation. If the drug was really to blame we would see mass shootings in many many more countries. So using these side effects as an excuse or explanation for the tragedy that happened in Texas is little more than thinly veiled apologetics for gun ownership.

What makes mass shootings so much more prevalent in the US is the easy access to guns. Is this not obvious?

Look, how about this? Let's pretend we've had the row and I've won. See? It saves a lot of effort.
Listening . . .
Posted: Tuesday, November 28, 2017 8:33:51 AM

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The side effects/withdrawals/recovery of this class of medication has not been studied. They can, indeed, be a major cause of mass shootings and violence. The guns do not shoot themselves. In a healthy society, more access to guns does not make a difference.
Hope123
Posted: Tuesday, November 28, 2017 11:02:16 AM

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Listening . . . wrote:
The side effects/withdrawals/recovery of this class of medication has not been studied. They can, indeed, be a major cause of mass shootings and violence. The guns do not shoot themselves. In a healthy society, more access to guns does not make a difference.


It is the attitude of paranoia and divisiveness that makes a society unhealthy.

Furthermore, unrefutable statistics show that countries with more guns have more mass shootings and more death by guns than those with fewer guns. Access does make a difference. Some other countries have higher rates of benzo use than the US. While some cases of mass shootings might have drugs as ONE of the factors, the statistics are not there to prove they are a Major cause of mass shootings that happen Every Day in the US. The shooters - in the box of psychiatric causes - were already depressed or anxious. Why else would they have been given the psychotropic drugs?

http://w-bad.org/statistics/

https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/the-forensic-files/201404/seven-myths-mass-murder

If you read the articles on the above links, you can see for yourself and skip the rest of my post.

:::::

Here are a couple of facts that stood out to me as I read these articles describing benzo use around the world.

Mass murderers don't want drugs as they cloud their efficiency in performing their task of taking out as many people as possible.

More women are prescribed these drugs and yet it is men who commit the mass shootings.

Comparisons re benzo use on the link can be made with other countries - I chose my own country.

Canadian usage of benzos is 3% higher than that of Americans, our laws are fair and guns are available to those who want one once they pass the background checks. Yet we don't have mass shootings every day, although our gun homicide rate is higher than in some other countries except the US and banana republics. Part of that is that guns are smuggled in from the US, and part of that is the socio-economic problems of the Indigenous out west where the rates are higher.

It is our attitude towards guns that is different - we don't think or feel paranoid that everybody is out to get us so we all need a gun. And that becomes a vicious circle. Gun sales go up after every US Major shooting that is sensationalized in the media. Did anyone hear about the other mass shooting the day of the Las Vegas? I read about it today.

We also have universal healthcare and although discrimination is around, we are mostly an inclusive society that does not fear someone because their skin reacts differently to the sun. Nor do we have the NRA interfering in our law making and the monied interests are fewer.

:::::

Some extra facts -

Statistics I read that showed violent behaviour such as a shooting of others or suicide while on Ritalin or other drugs were all young teenagers. One was twenty. The medical professions are now aware that it is riskier for the young to take these drugs. It is also riskier for for the elderly because it builds up as the body is not as efficient anymore. But the elderly are not usually out there murdering people.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/0/one-mass-shooting-every-day-seven-facts-gun-violence-america/

Until he extends the circle of his compassion to all living things, man will not himself find peace. Albert Schweitzer
Romany
Posted: Tuesday, November 28, 2017 11:25:14 AM
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Hope - but some of us get tempted every now and then!!Whistle Dancing
progpen
Posted: Wednesday, November 29, 2017 8:54:53 AM

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What we see happening in the US is whenever a mass shooting happens that opens another door to discussion, the gun lobby has distractions ready. We see this in Listening's post trying to blame pharmaceuticals for all shootings. The gun lobby knows the distraction doesn't have to make sense or be realistic. All they have to do is flood the right wing echo chamber with it and it becomes the truth. In the past we've seen the same thing with illegal guns, "You can't blame everyone for illegal guns, because those people are criminals anyway" and when the next shooting was with legal guns, "You can't blame everyone for legal guns, because we are all law abiding people".

Be kind but be fierce. You are needed now more than ever before. Take up the mantel of change. For this is your time.
Romany
Posted: Wednesday, November 29, 2017 12:54:45 PM
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Proggy,

Until this year I've never read so much about American gun laws and culture before! And I finally realise that for as long as legislation has a price-tag I guess there really IS nothing that can be done.

Objectively, if obscenely huge amounts of money can buy everything from a Presidency to Legislation, then whoever controls the bucks controls the laws of the land, yeah?

It would appear to me that, once again, we're led down the same path: - education. People have to be educated to ask questions, to look for answers, to use objectivity, to have confidence in their own powers of deduction.

Of course I know that this isn't news to most of America. But from the outside the thing that puzzled me was HOW the whole thing came about. Now that I understand that, I find myself, like many American posters, unable to think of how positive outcomes can ever come out of the current status quo?

Have any think-tanks or organisations come up with plausible paradigms to address the gun question? Are there any article/videos with possible ideas? (I still can't read URLs, but the title will let me google it.)

progpen
Posted: Wednesday, November 29, 2017 3:20:01 PM

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The Pew Research Center has some great information on the gun control issue in the US. I guess you could call them a think tank and they are as non-political as you can hope for.

Be kind but be fierce. You are needed now more than ever before. Take up the mantel of change. For this is your time.
Listening . . .
Posted: Thursday, November 30, 2017 6:33:55 AM

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I don’t doubt that big money interests are playing a part in the issue of gun ownership. It would be naive to believe otherwise. However, I happen to live in an area where people support the right to carry a concealed weapon. Many support the right to own big weapons (not concealable). They support these rights and own weapons. The incidence of gun violence here is very low. This could change if access to medications are denied...withdrawal symptoms would quickly set in.
The medications are being rampantly distributed and have addictive qualities with side effects that can lead to violence. Many of these medications are being delivered by doctors who believe that the studies out there have told the whole story.

Consider this: big money interests are in pharmaceuticals, too.

Note: I also don’t believe the medications are the issue in every incident of violence, either. The issue of gun violence is multi-faceted. It cannot be answered or solved completely with a swift “it’s the gun’s fault.”
Absinthius
Posted: Thursday, November 30, 2017 7:17:06 AM

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Listening, of course the problem is multi-faceted. But to solve a problem, you need to apply the right tools. As Hope already mentioned in this thread, the Dickey act prevents even researching the best way to handle this issue.

Therefore I would pose that the root of the problem lies with Americas attitude towards guns and all related manners. The moment anyone dares to even suggest that perhaps less access to guns could reduce the amount of gun violence you see that a very vocal (and very rich) group of Americans instantly jumps into the frey to obscure any kind of real discussion. Blaming it on whatever they can see without even accepting the possbility that mass gun ownership is at the very least partly to blame.

If the USA wants to prove these arguments to be wrong, lift the Dickey amendment and show it using objective research data. But for the love of [insert random deity] stop making excuses.

Look, how about this? Let's pretend we've had the row and I've won. See? It saves a lot of effort.
March Hare
Posted: Thursday, November 30, 2017 7:36:03 AM

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Location: Zedelgem, Flanders, Belgium
Listening . . . wrote:
I don’t doubt that big money interests are playing a part in the issue of gun ownership. It would be naive to believe otherwise. However, I happen to live in an area where people support the right to carry a concealed weapon. Many support the right to own big weapons (not concealable). They support these rights and own weapons. The incidence of gun violence here is very low. This could change if access to medications are denied...withdrawal symptoms would quickly set in.
The medications are being rampantly distributed and have addictive qualities with side effects that can lead to violence. Many of these medications are being delivered by doctors who believe that the studies out there have told the whole story.

Consider this: big money interests are in pharmaceuticals, too.

Note: I also don’t believe the medications are the issue in every incident of violence, either. The issue of gun violence is multi-faceted. It cannot be answered or solved completely with a swift “it’s the gun’s fault.”


Gun control does not necessarily have to mean that it becomes impossible to own big weapons. It can simply mean that a background check is implemented so that people with known dangerous mental health issues (or with a known history of violent crime) cannot buy large firearms. Surely that is not an unreasonable thing to ask?
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