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Харбин Хэйлунцзян 1
Posted: Monday, October 02, 2017 11:40:31 AM

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I've been waiting all day but it looks like only Russia knows it:

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-lasvegas-shooting/at-least-50-dead-more-than-400-hurt-in-las-vegas-concert-attack-idUSKCN1C70FU

I may not like president Obama but one thing that he was absolutely right about was gun control.


აბა ყვავებს ვინ დაიჭერს, კარგო? გალიაში ბულბულები ზიან.
Wilmar (USA)
Posted: Monday, October 02, 2017 11:49:51 AM

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YOu like being the sitting duck? Do you really think the criminals are going to turn in their guns? HaHaHa!
Lotje1000
Posted: Monday, October 02, 2017 12:50:39 PM

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Харбин Хэйлунцзян 1 wrote:
I've been waiting all day but it looks like only Russia knows it.


It's world news, I imagine. It's been on every bit of news media over here as well.

Not sure what you've been waiting for?
Romany
Posted: Monday, October 02, 2017 1:35:47 PM
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Xap -

Unfortunately, though this news should unite us in shock; this can only turn into a contentious discussion. Which is why it is being avoided. Our sorrow for these shattered lives, I am sure, unites us all.

As does our lack of interest in initiating yet another interminable thread with people hurling insults across the great gun-control divide.
redgriffin
Posted: Monday, October 02, 2017 3:06:24 PM

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Wilmar (USA) wrote:
YOu like being the sitting duck? Do you really think the criminals are going to turn in their guns? HaHaHa!

B&^ls&*t if that was true the west would never have been settled guns were far less prevalent in the "Wild West" then you would think. Plus the people who used guns had better training in their use.
NKM
Posted: Monday, October 02, 2017 3:46:15 PM

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They say it's people, not guns, that kill people.

Of course it's also cars, buses, planes, bombs, knives, ice-picks, screwdrivers, … and whatever else happens to be at hand.

Wilmar (USA)
Posted: Monday, October 02, 2017 4:22:17 PM

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redgriffin wrote:
Wilmar (USA) wrote:
YOu like being the sitting duck? Do you really think the criminals are going to turn in their guns? HaHaHa!

B&^ls&*t if that was true the west would never have been settled guns were far less prevalent in the "Wild West" then you would think. Plus the people who used guns had better training in their use.


You'll be surprised to know that the "wild west" hardly was, and certainly isn't now.
Ok, here is the plan for eliminating guns from the USA -- that's what you want, right?
1) Have all the criminals turn in their guns. This includes the illegals smuggling them in (and anyone else).
2) ... doesn't really matter, does it? Because step 1 isn't going to happen.
Hope123
Posted: Monday, October 02, 2017 4:35:55 PM

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As much as we feel sorry for the families involved (at least one young Canadian man from B.C. was killed) it really is just a ho hum day for the US and nothing will be done because of the theory that carrying a gun will protect you and the NRA's legal lobbying with money of lawmakers.

On average, there is more than one mass shooting for each day in America.

In 2015 there were 355 mass shootings in 333 days. As well, some shootings were unreported to the database. Mass on this database is 4 or more shot - not necessarily murdered.

https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2017/10/2/16399418/us-gun-violence-statistics-maps-charts



Just because early reports say this is one more death than the recent Orlando shooting of 49 lives lost, and over 400 wounded, the number of casualties is the only thing that makes it unique in the USA.

Developed countries with more guns also have more gun deaths and more violence overall because of easy access to a weapon that is easy to use from a distance and has a large satisfaction response of killing many. People do kill, but they couldn't do it so easily if the weapon was not so easily obtained and so convenient to use.

A permit is not needed to buy a gun in Nevada.

Although early news is often not correct, it should also be noted that the news so far is that the shooter was an affluent American white citizen again and not the dreaded immigrant or refugee.

Strangely enough, gun company stocks rose on the markets after the shooting. I'm sure a gun would have helped today. Sarcasm intended.

Equality is when you see a person - not a label.
L.Rai
Posted: Monday, October 02, 2017 5:18:55 PM

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I live in China...no guns for anyone but police and military, however we do have mass murders...knives usually. So, if the rational is that if guns are gone the mass murders will stop...hmmm, hasn't been the case in China. BTW, most go unreported. The other weapon of choice here..the common car...yet millions of them are still on the road and growing each day.

I wonder if we can go to the root of the problem..people. Maybe the only way to really stop this madness is to have better mental health care, but heck what do I know. Whistle

My prayers for those who were part of this latest madness, and I hope we can get some answers as to why.

"Your life matters more than you will ever know, so live it well"
redgriffin
Posted: Monday, October 02, 2017 5:54:19 PM

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You'll be surprised to know that the "wild west" hardly was, and certainly isn't now.
Ok, here is the plan for eliminating guns from the USA -- that's what you want, right?
1) Have all the criminals turn in their guns. This includes the illegals smuggling them in (and anyone else).
2) ... doesn't really matter, does it? Because step 1 isn't going to happen.[/quote]

The first thin that anybody ever says after reading what I wrote is ."you want to take guns away from all people" or something to that effect while you know that that is not what I said the Western Territories were no violent buy they did harbor a hard life and most of the people living in the west were veterans of the Civil and the Indian Wars. They knew how to defend themselves but unless you lived on the land there was no need for a gun unless you hunted or were in law enforcement. In todays world I agree with Ronald Reagan who said "I agree with owning guns ... But I can see no reason for a person to own an AK-47." So do yourself a favor stop get your knickers in a knot when someone say something you don't agree with but look at all angles and you might learn something all you have put forward here is an unbalanced argument that is not well thought out.
redgriffin
Posted: Monday, October 02, 2017 6:25:52 PM

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I challenge anyone to tell me where it says in the 2nd Amendment that the private citizen has the right yo keep and bears arms and just to be safe here is the text of the Amendment from the Bill of Rights;
A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.
progpen
Posted: Monday, October 02, 2017 6:37:13 PM

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There can't be a mature, reasonable discussion regarding gun control in the US because money has taken the maturity and reason out of the discussion and all that it left are right wing sound bites, a little bit of hand wringing and a whole lot of nothing. Logic and maturity left the stage a long time ago.

Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter. ― Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.
Hope123
Posted: Monday, October 02, 2017 10:40:20 PM

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Hi L.Rai.

Your post stirred my quest for knowledge so I tried to find statistics for incidences of knife attacks in China but couldn't find much other than a list of a recent ones especially in schools (cowards attacking children) and some coordinated attacks by several attackers with knives. There seem to be quite a few but they don't keep statistics?

However, I did find this interesting website that compares all causes of death for world countries on a map and one can set the cause of death as “Violence” - from all kinds, not just guns.

After checking the map, if it is not guns per se, then the people in the countries higher up on the list of developed countries must just be more violent. Personally, I think I'd rather blame the gun culture. Cultures that have more guns have more violence. It is not just the US. And as Progpen, says - that always boils down to money.


http://www.worldlifeexpectancy.com/cause-of-death/violence/by-country/

Interesting too that the Chinese have enacted laws that those who buy larger knives must show their national Identity Cards, as the government has long been pushing knife control, just as some in the US would like better gun control laws. Some dangerous knives, which are called 'restricted knives', are forbidden. They have enhanced security at schools after there were what they figured were copycat crimes.

Equality is when you see a person - not a label.
Hope123
Posted: Monday, October 02, 2017 10:59:55 PM

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Also, L Rai. I agree that mental health is a big factor. I add that the teaching of anger management to children and educating every parent that treating children with respect is really important would be a start. Killing our own kind, even using our own hands, is in the human animal makeup unless it is civilized/socialized out.

Also, the western world is a culture that does not get enough sleep. Science is proving that the function of the brain is affected when it is not allowed to physically cleanse itself during sleep. That contributes to memories not being learned, to an increase in eating, to lowering performance in tasks, to anger control, and even to the factors that cause Alzheimers.

As well, a very large percentage of addicts are medicating themselves for ADD, depression, anxiety, PTSD, and other disorders. Drugs including alcohol affect judgment.

25 to 40% of inmates have ADD or ADHD when only 4-8 % of the general population have it. I think that is true universally. Many females have it but don't show the typical symptoms. Performance, self esteem, social interactions, impulsivity, and the acting out of aggression are affected by this disorder.

https://www.helpguide.org/articles/add-adhd/adhd-attention-deficit-disorder-in-adults.htm

Instead of minding our own business, we shame, shun, blame, and ignore anyone with a different physical attribute, a different culture, a different gender, a different sexual orientation, and nowadays just for saying something. For example, I didn't wear my glasses because the kids called me “four eyes”. If people are excommunicated enough, they may finally “blow”, especially if they feel nobody ever “has their back”. If weapons are handy, that makes it easier. For some, they are really committing suicide but want to hurt others first and take them with them.

Any of these factors could be contributing to our mental health, the added frustrations of life, and to someone deciding to take lives as a going out with a grand gesture of fame.

Equality is when you see a person - not a label.
Харбин Хэйлунцзян 1
Posted: Tuesday, October 03, 2017 2:11:08 AM

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Wilmar (USA) wrote:
Ok, here is the plan for eliminating guns from the USA -- that's what you want, right?
1) Have all the criminals turn in their guns. This includes the illegals smuggling them in (and anyone else).

Nobody is expecting that. But those will be hunted, the guns will be confiscated and there will be much less guns around. Furthermore just possessing a gun will be sufficient justification for sending you on the bunk.


აბა ყვავებს ვინ დაიჭერს, კარგო? გალიაში ბულბულები ზიან.
almo 1
Posted: Tuesday, October 03, 2017 8:19:56 AM
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Brandon Laird is a professional baseball player,
now playing in Japan.

It turned out that his cousin was involved in the shooting
and died.

I am really sorry for the loss.




Hope123
Posted: Tuesday, October 03, 2017 8:50:08 AM

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Almo, we are not shocked but are sorry for all the senseless loss of human life, too.

They are still verifying the numbers but it seems Canada lost three citizens and four are in hospital.

The fact that the police were able to discover the location of the shooter as quickly as they did may have saved even more people from being killed.

But there is now a bill pending in the US that will probably pass that allows anyone to buy a silencer without a background check.

Go figure!

Gun enthusiasts have even changed the term “silencer” to a more politically correct name to make it seem more palatable but it will always mean that the sounds are silenced so that detection of the source is harder. Who needs that except for slaughter!

Equality is when you see a person - not a label.
L.Rai
Posted: Tuesday, October 03, 2017 7:38:10 PM

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Hope:

I have sent you a PM reply

"Your life matters more than you will ever know, so live it well"
March Hare
Posted: Wednesday, October 04, 2017 2:42:18 AM

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L.Rai wrote:
I live in China...no guns for anyone but police and military, however we do have mass murders...knives usually. So, if the rational is that if guns are gone the mass murders will stop...hmmm, hasn't been the case in China. BTW, most go unreported. The other weapon of choice here..the common car...yet millions of them are still on the road and growing each day.

I wonder if we can go to the root of the problem..people. Maybe the only way to really stop this madness is to have better mental health care, but heck what do I know. Whistle

My prayers for those who were part of this latest madness, and I hope we can get some answers as to why.


I highly doubt a killer with a knife would be able to kill 60 people and wound hundreds of others in just 15 minutes. You can't stop murderers by taking away guns, but you can make them considerably less efficient.
TheParser
Posted: Wednesday, October 04, 2017 4:48:50 AM
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A female executive at an important American media company has just been dismissed (at least until the dust settles).

Why?

She said on social media that she did NOT grieve for the Las Vegas victims.

The reason?

She said that probably most of the victims were -- REPUBLICANS.

*****

This kind of insane hatred has been created by the losers of the 2016 presidential election.

In my OPINION, such individuals should be ashamed of themselves for creating such a vile political climate.

Hope123
Posted: Wednesday, October 04, 2017 10:33:13 AM

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http://www.cnn.com/2017/10/03/opinions/mass-shootings-white-male-rage-modan-opinion/index.html

How America has silently accepted the rage of white men -

This author sees a pattern and a reason for the mass shootings. Between 1982 and 2012 there were mass shootings by 44 white men and one woman.

Between 2001 and 2014, 440,095 deaths by firearms occurred on US soil, while deaths by terrorism during those years numbered 3,412. “In 13 years almost half a million deaths! Yet walls and bans are the focus.

Since 1982, mass shootings in the United States have been committed by white men who are often labeled "lone wolves" or "psychologically impaired...

“Make no mistake: this is war culture that has dressed up as Uncle Sam and embedded itself into the American psyche. Any other path -- let's say, for example, abortion or foreign-born terror -- that led to the destruction of life on this level would be attacked as violently opposed to American values. But because this culture is embraced by the race and party that controls the government, it continues to be celebrated and defended in the spirit of love of country.”


Equality is when you see a person - not a label.
Romany
Posted: Wednesday, October 04, 2017 10:53:56 AM
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Hope - there are several charts on various sites (I know TYT has one) which show that a mass shootings occurs in America for every day of the year. (So sorry can't send links!)

A 'mass shooting' is defined as an incident in which a minimum of 4 people are shot. One or two earlier charts had the number of deaths per anum as one or two short of 365. I don't think that even if it were 300 short of 365 that would be any less mind-numbingly horrific.
Listening . . .
Posted: Wednesday, October 04, 2017 4:37:20 PM

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I hesitate to post anything on this subject since I know there will be zero resolution or understanding. However, I almost puked my lunch when I read Hope's thought that says "...it really is just a ho hum day for the US ..." No, Ma'am. It is not a ho hum day in America. This is a very sad day for us all. We have lost lives at the hand of a man who lost his sense of humanity. Of course, we quickly devolve from discussion of the events that led to the act and immediately begin discussion of gun control. Listen to this video. This is Bill Whittle and he best describes the reason Americans should keep their right to bear arms.
Hope123
Posted: Wednesday, October 04, 2017 5:47:18 PM

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Ah Listening - you saw only one phrase disconnected from the rest of the thought - the gist of my reasoning. You applied the “ho hum” comment to the awfulness instead of to the number of daily occurrences.

It IS a sad day and as I said we feel for those families of Americans and Canadians and other nationalities. The sheer numbers of wounded and ten more killed than Orlando may be shocking - but the fact that there is a mass killing nearly every day in America makes it ho hum. You do have to admit that when there are statistics to back me up. And non Americans seem to be more aware of the statistics than Americans for some reason.

And until you and the few Americans still holding out (I heard percentages of people in both parties wanting changes and they were high) against updates of regulations admit that it is a daily occurrence and that nearly half a million Americans were killed in 13 years (not including suicide or any since 2013, and not including the wounded) and insist on the right to bear arms as the author above calls “a war culture dressed up as Uncle Sam”, then indeed there will be no resolution or understanding. I think the odds are in my favor that nothing will be done again. The news cycle will jump to something else shortly.

If 20 young children being killed a while ago did not cause changes, then this won't either. Unless the citizens who want change make those in power listen.


An ideology of the right to bear arms is worth more than lives? Apparently.

It is a political decision. Progpen mentioned money. Jimmy Kimmel, a Las Vegas native with family and friends there, posted pix of the 50 some senators who voted against tighter controls, saying “the NRA has their balls in their money clip”.

My hot button is that the laxness in the US laws allows many guns into circulation that are then smuggled into Canada, causing our crime rates to go up.



My husband does not know I am writing this and he just read me a statistic - more Americans have died in the last almost 50 years from gunshots than ALL the wars in American HISTORY. Your enemies don't need to go to war - they will just let you kill each other until your toxic love affair with guns is stopped.

From 1968 to 2013 there were 1.53 million Americans killed in firearm related deaths. cdc and US dept of veteran affairs statistics




Equality is when you see a person - not a label.
Hope123
Posted: Thursday, October 05, 2017 12:09:54 AM

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Listening, I just took time to watch your video to try to understand better your and LRai's POV.

Maybe the reason the topic of gun control that annoys anti-gun-regulations people comes up every time there is a massacre is that it doesn't come up in between and there is a necessity for a discussion.

I don't know what the amendment was the speaker was talking about on the video and his arguments against the amendment may well have been valid.

But I have several concerns about his logic about gun control laws being made stricter. Making the rules of purchase stricter is not cutting off the horns of gazelles. (prey in his analogy) It is making it harder for the predators to buy weapons. They are not trying to take away guns from those competent to use them. I have no issues with the guns per se.

Authorities are notified only if the large purchase is a single incident. Keeping track of how many any one person has so they can follow up is not done when the loophole of spreading out the purchases is done over a few months' time. This guy started in 2016 to build an arsenal of repeating guns or ones that he could modify with a legal modifier to make them automatic.

Saying that there are other causes of violence not addressed does not mean that this one should be ignored as well. Address ALL the issues instead.

Large darts and sabres on costumes are illegal - yet AK47s which are far more lethal and target many ARE legal.

Can you imagine not registering trucks, or requiring insurance for injury they caused, or the licensing and testing of drivers because the constitution says you have a right to drive any old way you want whether qualified or not, mentally ill or not, blind or not - and besides, they can be used as weapons anyhow?

Those repeating rifles are NOT used for protection, so that is not an argument for allowing their sale.

He quoted statistics of how many lives were saved by people protecting themselves by carrying. That is such a sad statistic, to have to be so fearful of your fellow neighbors because of the prevailing attitudes that makes violence so prevalent.

He points to a woman wishing she'd had her gun on campus to prevent her rape. At my granddaughter's CDN university, they have set up systems so that people do not ever walk alone and rapes are thus prevented without firearms.

Lastly, he held up statistics of regimes that are not democracies to make his point, but ignored countries such as Australia that have found a solution. Australia had had 13 mass shootings in 18 years. After the National Firearms Agreement, outlawing all civilian access to semiautomatic rifles and pump-action shotguns 21 years ago, they have not, touch wood, had a single massacre since.

http://fortune.com/2017/10/04/las-vegas-shooting-australia-gun-control-laws/


It is not an intractable problem.




.


Equality is when you see a person - not a label.
philips daughter
Posted: Thursday, October 05, 2017 8:43:07 AM

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I am sitting here watching the terrorist (IMO) attack play out over and over on the TV. They are reporting how complete strangers helped and saved one another. It dawned on me that not one of them were "saved by a good guy with a gun" but by a good guy with heart and courage.
Romany
Posted: Thursday, October 05, 2017 2:55:49 PM
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One of the things that is horrifying the rest of the world is that, after this traumatic incident, all the people who were taken to hospital for treatment will now be faced with thousands of dollars worth of medical bills!

This seems like nothing less than a punitive measure: apart from the psychological and physical injuries now, some people are going to lose their houses or cars or become destitute. And how many will, apparently, lose their jobs because there's no legislation in place to protect them? It is incomprehensible that the government of a wealthy country like America would treat its citizens with less security, compassion and humanity than any other First World country, and certainly than some of the 3rd World countries in which I've had to be hospitalised!



Tovarish
Posted: Thursday, October 05, 2017 8:58:41 PM

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Here we are again, sympathising with the US community about yet another mass murder, with what we feel on TFD as unacceptable gun laws and conditions, but we don't live

in the US and most of all we don't vote in the US, citizens get the governments and laws they deserve.

I am sure most regular posters on TFD know Australia's gun laws, they were brought into law following The Port Arthur massacre.

We are just completing another amnesty where people can hand guns into the police without licences or recriminations.

So members understand me that don't know me, I and each of my family are shooters and legally licensed gun owners, what we are not is hunters.

http://www.skynews.com.au/news/national/nsw/2017/08/08/over-6400-firearms-surrendered-in-nsw.html


Hope123
Posted: Sunday, October 08, 2017 7:12:01 AM

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Tov, most of the world says “Good for Australia”. The agenda is not against guns per se. The agenda is for regulation.

To me you can't separate the guns and the people, but if the argument is that it isn't the guns, it's the people - then regulate the people! And that's exactly what they are trying to do. But many Republican states are actively pushing laws to ease access to weapons.

Their only answer is useless - pray for the victims. Praying never changes nature's laws. Bullets and human bodies are not equal.

Most of the world also is increasingly giving notice that it no longer is going to be shocked nor sympathetic to gun violence stories in the US until some changes are made. As you say, citizens get the govt they deserve. And many are still actively supporting it and agitating for it.

The men who wrote the second amendment owned muskets and people. They would never have dreamed of AK47s.

ABC News - Officials give a portrait of a person that they say has a severe mental illness as this:

The portrait of Paddock ... might have been financially successful, he had real difficulty interacting with people. He is described as standoff-ish, disconnected, a man who had difficulty establishing and maintaining meaningful relationships.”

Does this remind you of anyone else who is holding, not just a few thousand people, but the whole world hostage? It's a rhetorical question.

http://abcnews.go.com/US/investigators-las-vegas-gunman-severe-undiagnosed-mental-illness/story?id=50346433


Equality is when you see a person - not a label.
almo 1
Posted: Sunday, October 08, 2017 7:38:46 AM
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Hope123 wrote:



Does this remind you of anyone else who is holding, not just a few thousand people, but the whole world hostage? It's a rhetorical question.









Kim Jong Un





collage expression:









Hope123
Posted: Sunday, October 08, 2017 7:45:32 AM

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Forgot about Kimmy.

Equality is when you see a person - not a label.
almo 1
Posted: Sunday, October 08, 2017 7:55:35 AM
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Hope123 wrote:
Forgot about Kimmy.






Kim Jong Un is the one.




Buzzito
Posted: Sunday, October 08, 2017 10:27:26 AM

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Wilmar (USA) wrote:
YOu like being the sitting duck? Do you really think the criminals are going to turn in their guns? HaHaHa!


Well said! What about the violence rampant throughout the world? People who think that gun control will solve murders by these kinds of people are sorely mistaken.
Buzzito
Posted: Sunday, October 08, 2017 10:33:10 AM

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Just a ho hum day? What kind of sick person are you? I am not seeing a label but an insensitive person. Regardless of intention, your comment was uncalled for.



Hope123 wrote:
As much as we feel sorry for the families involved (at least one young Canadian man from B.C. was killed) it really is just a ho hum day for the US and nothing will be done because of the theory that carrying a gun will protect you and the NRA's legal lobbying with money of lawmakers.

On average, there is more than one mass shooting for each day in America.

In 2015 there were 355 mass shootings in 333 days. As well, some shootings were unreported to the database. Mass on this database is 4 or more shot - not necessarily murdered.

https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2017/10/2/16399418/us-gun-violence-statistics-maps-charts



Just because early reports say this is one more death than the recent Orlando shooting of 49 lives lost, and over 400 wounded, the number of casualties is the only thing that makes it unique in the USA.

Developed countries with more guns also have more gun deaths and more violence overall because of easy access to a weapon that is easy to use from a distance and has a large satisfaction response of killing many. People do kill, but they couldn't do it so easily if the weapon was not so easily obtained and so convenient to use.

A permit is not needed to buy a gun in Nevada.

Although early news is often not correct, it should also be noted that the news so far is that the shooter was an affluent American white citizen again and not the dreaded immigrant or refugee.

Strangely enough, gun company stocks rose on the markets after the shooting. I'm sure a gun would have helped today. Sarcasm intended.
Buzzito
Posted: Sunday, October 08, 2017 10:34:50 AM

Rank: Member

Joined: 5/28/2016
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Location: Bensalem, Pennsylvania, United States
Hope123 wrote:
Yeah, if you can't fix all the problems, don't try to fix any. Makes sense.



You go about solving the problem in this case, not "fixing it". Violence is in the human nature and its causes, sources and exacerbations need to be dealt with. You are so far off target.
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