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Pardon Me, Mr. President. Options
Chazlee
Posted: Saturday, August 26, 2017 12:08:19 AM
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Everyone's favorite political leader, Donald “Why can’t we use nuclear weapons?”Trump, has finally made the not too surprising decision to pardon former Arizona Sheriff Joe "I'm an equal-opportunity law-enforcement guy-I lock everyone up" Arpaio, who was facing jail time after he “was found guilty of criminal contempt last month for disregarding a court order in a racial profiling case.”

By giving a “get out of jail free” card to a political supporter/friend, Trump is showing us all what we can expect from him in the weeks/months/years to come. Political pardons are available for all those who are near and dear to the president’s heart. So, lawbreakers can rejoice. Criminals can relax. They’ve got a friend with power who understands them. As long as they are in his good graces, he will not allow them to be abused and misused by a corrupt criminal justice system.

Now all Trump has to hope for is that should the day ever arise when he needs such a buddy to overlook any misdeeds he may have committed while in office, he can find a kindred spirit to help him out. Otherwise, Trump may one day find himself in a jail cell wearing pink underwear, just like Arpaio made the male inmates wear when he was the sheriff in Arizona.
Peace.
http://edition.cnn.com/2017/08/25/politics/sheriff-joe-arpaio-donald-trump-pardon/index.html
mactoria
Posted: Saturday, August 26, 2017 2:48:45 AM
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Important to note about presidential pardons: by accepting a presidential pardon, the pardoned person is admitting his/her guilt...it's sort of implicit that one can only be pardoned if one is guilty. If this pardon had gone through normal Justice Dept process (which at this moment is unknown but it seems unlikely that it did since Arpaio's conviction occurred in Dec 2016 and normally the DOJ pardon process takes a year or more of investigation before a final recommendation is made to the president...it appears that Trump consulted no professional DOH personnel, just made a personalized decision), Arpaio would have been required to admit his guilt as a necessary step to being given the pardon. So Arpaio may no longer have prison and probation hanging over his head, but he's either explicitly or implicity admitted his guilt/responsibility for criminal contempt of a federal court order. That federal court order, of course, based on Arpaio's illegal racial profiling actions. Arpaio and his supporters may see this as a victory, but informed people see that he was found guilty and then admitted his guilt in accepting the pardon; the pardon is not a badge of pride, it's an admission of culpability.

This said, this pardon sets a horrible precedent for respect of our justice system. Just as was made clear in Trump's claim in 2016 that the judge for the Trump University lawsuit (a man born in Indiana whose lineage was Hispanic) couldn't be fair solely based on his ethnic heritage, Trump is again signaling disdain for the authority and responsibility of the judges who oversee our country's system of justice. A president doesn't undercut the judicial branch...at least not if he is serious and respectful of our Constitution's reverence for the co-equality of all three branches that make our government work.
TheParser
Posted: Saturday, August 26, 2017 7:53:59 AM
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mactoria wrote:
If this pardon had gone through normal Justice Dept process.




Fortunately, there are still a few fair-minded people (both "liberal" and "conservative") who agree that President Trump should have waited to see the final outcome of the case against the sheriff.

Then, it is said, there would have been an array of options for the President to use.

All presidents have used pardons, commutations, etc. to help people whom that particular president wanted to help.

President Obama during his last week in office, for example, pardoned a person whom many people felt should not have been pardoned. There was little outcry, for the "liberal" media deeply loved President Obama. There was no talk about "respecting the justice system."






tunaafi
Posted: Saturday, August 26, 2017 8:23:17 AM

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TheParser wrote:


President Obama during his last week in office, for example, pardoned a person whom many people felt should not have been pardoned.


Who was that?
Hope123
Posted: Saturday, August 26, 2017 11:55:05 AM

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Tuna, It’s only Wiki but you can sort the accuracy as I do what the Parser is not able with his dial-up internet and lack of knowledge to post links or cut and paste from articles.


https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_people_granted_executive_clemency_by_Barack_Obama

Most of Obama’s were drug related and commutations.

But he did pardon a woman who had served seven years of a charge for leaking classified information so maybe this is the one?

The reason people are up in arms about Trump’s latest is because it involves the favorite topic right now of racism. Democrats should not only address this aspect, but take what Bannon said about beating them on economic terms if they focus only on the social issues to the detriment of the economy.

Big difference in pardons - 35 years for leaking information - think about all the leaking going on now! And some Americans opposed this pardon. Seems to me that was an excessive sentence and this was the response of a humanitarian president.

"The decision by Mr. Obama rescued Ms. Manning, who twice tried to kill herself last year, from an uncertain future as a transgender woman incarcerated at the men’s military prison at Fort Leavenworth, Kan. She has been jailed for nearly seven years, and her 35-year sentence was by far the longest punishment ever imposed in the United States for a leak conviction.”

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/01/17/us/politics/obama-commutes-bulk-of-chelsea-mannings-sentence.html




Equality is when you see a person - not a label.
Hope123
Posted: Saturday, August 26, 2017 12:07:08 PM

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Manning explains her motives and accepts responsibility. Different story to Arpaio. He says he didn't ask for it. It was a political decision by Trump in my opinion (and that of others - not spending time looking for sources right now where I read it, so take it with how much ever salt you want.)

http://abcnews.go.com/US/chelsea-manning-explains-leaked-secret-military-documents-fought/story?id=47931325

If she was pardoned I don’t understand why her court martial is under appeal.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/onpolitics/2017/07/27/chelsea-manning-visits-white-house-after-trump-bans-transgender-troops/516981001/


Equality is when you see a person - not a label.
Hope123
Posted: Saturday, August 26, 2017 5:56:23 PM

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This is the friend Trump pardoned. Birds of feather etc. Probably Trump's friend because he supported him on Birtherism.

https://thinkprogress.org/arpaio-legacy-racial-profiling-e94361d4bab7/

Bragged about tents for jails that got to 145 F, calling them his concentration camps.

Outright racism of stopping/ incarcerating/ name calling of Latinos.

Refused to investigate sex crimes including 32 child molestations.


This is your president's friend, Parser. Will you never open your eyes about the character of the man you helped elect? Or is it too much for you to acknowledge you made a mistake?





Equality is when you see a person - not a label.
Hope123
Posted: Sunday, August 27, 2017 6:55:15 AM

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Not only did he pardon Arpaio, but Trump earlier tried to subvert justice by asking Sessions to drop the case, according to reports this morning.


Equality is when you see a person - not a label.
progpen
Posted: Sunday, August 27, 2017 7:46:16 AM

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Hope123 wrote:
If she was pardoned I don’t understand why her court martial is under appeal.


He commuted the sentence, but did not pardon the offense. A presidential commutation reduces the sentence being served but it does not change the fact of conviction, whereas a pardon forgives a certain criminal offense. Also, the recipient of a pardon must plead guilty to the crime, which then leaves it open to civil court action. So in Arpaio's case, this means he would have to plead guilty and open himself up to civil legal battles.

Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter. ― Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.
TheParser
Posted: Sunday, August 27, 2017 7:57:48 AM
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Some Americans thank Sheriff Arpaio for having tried to enforce American immigration laws.

Some Americans wish him a nice retirement.


Some Americans thank President Trump for having the political courage to give a much-deserved pardon.

Some Americans hope that the President can use the Sheriff's expertise in some capacity.

Some Americans are grateful to these two patriots for ignoring political correctness.

Some Americans acknowledge, however, that no one (including the Sheriff and the President) can do anything to substantially stop unregulated immigration or its influence on American society. The point of no return has already been passed.
tunaafi
Posted: Sunday, August 27, 2017 8:12:38 AM

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I am sure you are right, Parser.

It is not Trump that I fear. It is the 'some Americans' who put into office a man who thinks in their way, people who still support him - millions of them.

Hope123
Posted: Sunday, August 27, 2017 8:40:50 AM

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Yes, Tuna. What Arpaio did was cruel and against the law and to have "some" Americans agree is really scary and disappointing, and disgusting to humane people. But when the Americans did not cause an uproar about torture being legal, I guess the handwriting was on the wall then.

:::::

So the States has illegals in it. So does Canada and every other country on earth. If the US gave a pardon to law abiding residents who have been there for a certain period of time, who are contributing to society and paying taxes, who have established roots, who came as children, they would have more time and resources to prevent new illegals and the extradition of criminals. But that was not to be when Obama tried.

Remember also that parts of the US originally belonged to Mexico.

All this fuss in the States is about fear of losing their white heterosexual gender-identity Christian heritage and Trump plays his fear cards well. IMCO only.

::

Thanks for the explanation Progpen.

Equality is when you see a person - not a label.
tunaafi
Posted: Monday, August 28, 2017 3:02:42 PM

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TheParser wrote:


Some Americans thank President Trump for having the political courage to give a much-deserved pardon.

Some Americans hope that the President can use the Sheriff's expertise in some capacity.

Some Americans are grateful to these two patriots for ignoring political correctness.



Some Americans thank President Trump for having the political courage to spit in the face of the American justice system.

Some Americans hope that the President can use the Sheriff's expertise in incarcerating Latinos in concentration camps.

Some Americans are grateful to these two patriots for disregarding court orders.


Romany
Posted: Wednesday, August 30, 2017 12:32:50 PM
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Having learnt by now that "some Americans" means Parsar and his library friends, we are fortunate these view points apply only to a tiny minority of people: -

"Some Americans thank President Trump for having the political courage to give a much-deserved pardon.".

This is a man who has earned himself the title of the worst police officer America has ever seen. He shackled pregnant women to their beds. He himself called his facility a "concentration camp". He housed people outside in tents inside which temperatures up to 43 were recorded. He almost broke the neck of a paraplegic who asked for a catheter. He was the most hated police officer in the United States. Thank goodness its only a few people who consider that such a vile human "deserves" a pardon.

Some Americans hope that the President can use the Sheriff's expertise in some capacity.

Again, thank goodness it's only a few people who hope that the President of America has recourse to this evil man 'in some capacity'. As a racial profiler, a torturer, a killer and an enabler for white nationalist and KKK, his "expertise" is limited. The average person would walk through fire to prevent such a person having any influence on their leader.

As for the third sentence, well it kinda speaks for itself, doesn't it? What in heaven and earth has political correctness got to do with rejoicing at the flouting of justice by the leader of the world? d'oh!
Romany
Posted: Wednesday, August 30, 2017 12:33:00 PM
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Having learnt by now that "some Americans" means Parsar and his library friends, we are fortunate these view points apply only to a tiny minority of people: -

"Some Americans thank President Trump for having the political courage to give a much-deserved pardon.".

This is a man who has earned himself the title of the worst police officer America has ever seen. He shackled pregnant women to their beds. He himself called his facility a "concentration camp". He housed people outside in tents inside which temperatures up to 43 were recorded. He almost broke the neck of a paraplegic who asked for a catheter. He was the most hated police officer in the United States. Thank goodness its only a few people who consider that such a vile human "deserves" a pardon.

Some Americans hope that the President can use the Sheriff's expertise in some capacity.

Again, thank goodness it's only a few people who hope that the President of America has recourse to this evil man 'in some capacity'. As a racial profiler, a torturer, a killer and an enabler for white nationalist and KKK, his "expertise" is limited. The average person would walk through fire to prevent such a person having any influence on their leader.

As for the third sentence, well it kinda speaks for itself, doesn't it? What in heaven and earth has political correctness got to do with rejoicing at the flouting of justice by the leader of the world? d'oh!
progpen
Posted: Thursday, August 31, 2017 8:53:29 AM

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https://www.mprnews.org/story/2017/08/31/source-grand-jury-hears-from-lobbyist-in-trump-tower-confab

Just a bit of news that shows that the investigation into the Russian ties and possible election manipulation are still moving forward.

A grand jury used by Special Counsel Robert Mueller has heard secret testimony from a Russian-American lobbyist who attended a June 2016 meeting with President Trump's eldest son, The Associated Press has learned.

A person familiar with the matter confirmed to the AP that Rinat Akhmetshin had appeared before Mueller's grand jury in recent weeks. The person spoke on condition of anonymity to discuss the secret proceedings.

The revelation is the clearest indication yet that Mueller and his team of investigators view the meeting, which came weeks after Trump had secured the Republican presidential nomination, as a relevant inquiry point in their broader probe into Russian interference in the 2016 election.


Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter. ― Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.
Hope123
Posted: Thursday, August 31, 2017 10:28:10 AM

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Plus Trump vowed he had no connection to Russia while actively pursuing to build the world's biggest tower in Russia. They have proof. Just one more ho hum lie to the public that his base bought.

Now a Republican official (no time to go back and check details) has introduced a bill to stop the Russian investigation.

Methinks they all "dost protest too much".

Equality is when you see a person - not a label.
Y111
Posted: Thursday, August 31, 2017 12:13:05 PM
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What is so bad in building a tower?
Hope123
Posted: Thursday, August 31, 2017 2:08:40 PM

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Y111 wrote:
What is so bad in building a tower?


Ordinarily nothing - unless there are laws about doing business with an enemy country while running to be president. You'd have to ask an American. There certainly are US laws about having blind trusts once you become president. But that has never bothered Trump. He is even spending time away from his job at his properties and using the presidency to further the businesses of his whole family.

The fact that he did not disclose his contacts with Russia but actually lied about it, is the problem.

Edited - actually it is worse than lying - see next post.

Equality is when you see a person - not a label.
Hope123
Posted: Thursday, August 31, 2017 2:29:31 PM

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YIII, I did a search. Apparently the campaign doesn't enter in to it - it is every citizen who negotiates with the government of an enemy.

The Logan Act (1 Stat. 613, 18 U.S.C. § 953, enacted January 30, 1799) is a United States federal law that details the fine and/or imprisonment of unauthorized citizens who negotiate with foreign governments having a dispute with the United States. It was intended to prevent the undermining of the government's position.[ Wiki

Obama had issued sanctions and it has been said - was it proven? - that Trump was reassuring the Russian government he would be more lenient if he became president. He even encouraged Russia in a speech to get and release Hillary's emails which they did in order to interfere in the election.

He would thus be undermining the government's position as well as helping an enemy government to interfere in an election.

I think it would be great if the US and Russia actually tried to sit down and work together, so I see nothing wrong with Trump doing that if that were all there is to it. It is his motivation and his underhandedness that is in question, and the fact that it is against the law to do business with the government. If government was not involved then what? I don't know.

Equality is when you see a person - not a label.
progpen
Posted: Thursday, August 31, 2017 6:37:09 PM

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Just makes me wonder. What if the roles were reversed and a candidate for president in Russia conspired with the US to rig Russian elections.

Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter. ― Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.
Y111
Posted: Friday, September 01, 2017 2:36:56 AM
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Hope123 wrote:

He even encouraged Russia in a speech to get and release Hillary's emails which they did in order to interfere in the election.

Or which they didn't. Unless there are Putin's fingerprints on those emails, of course, and everyone can see them. I can't. Has it been proven in any court? If not, then it's a hypothesis. The presumption of innocence works for Russians as well. Though you Westerners seem to believe it doesn't. So much for human rights. Apparently declaring some people an enemy of the US means declaring them non-human. Only non-humans can have a dispute with the USA.
Y111
Posted: Friday, September 01, 2017 3:50:36 AM
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progpen wrote:
Just makes me wonder. What if the roles were reversed and a candidate for president in Russia conspired with the US to rig Russian elections.

I don't have a clear idea, actually. It would be interesting to see. But our liberal opposition would likely approve of that. They are pro-West and like visiting the US embassy, so why not?
TheParser
Posted: Friday, September 01, 2017 7:19:11 AM
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Y111 wrote:
Though you Westerners seem to believe it doesn't.




As the resident middle-of-the-roader in these forums, I can reassure you that the "liberals" are shedding crocodile tears over alleged Russian interference ONLY because they hope something can be found to force President Trump to step down.

Everyone (including the "liberals" themselves) know that IF the Russians had, in fact, interfered, and IF Ms. Hillary had won, then the "liberals" would be thanking the Russians for their help.

The "liberal" media think that they are very clever by filling their pages and TV screens with fake news, gossip, speculation, misinformation, and disinformation.

Oh, yes, the distraught "liberals" are lapping it all up, but the silent majority (and they ARE the majority) have tuned out and are not paying attention to what the media have to say.

The media have lost the American people.

tunaafi
Posted: Friday, September 01, 2017 7:42:20 AM

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TheParser wrote:

As the resident middle-of-the-roader in these forums


Eh?
Hope123
Posted: Friday, September 01, 2017 8:33:03 AM

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Y111 wrote:
Hope123 wrote:

He even encouraged Russia in a speech to get and release Hillary's emails which they did in order to interfere in the election.

Or which they didn't. Unless there are Putin's fingerprints on those emails, of course, and everyone can see them. I can't. Has it been proven in any court? If not, then it's a hypothesis. The presumption of innocence works for Russians as well. Though you Westerners seem to believe it doesn't. So much for human rights. Apparently declaring some people an enemy of the US means declaring them non-human. Only non-humans can have a dispute with the USA.


Four offices have determined Russia interfered including the Central Intelligence Agency, the National Security Agency, the FBI and the Director of National Intelligence Office. The then president of the United States did not issue sanctions against a country without being sure.

C'mon YIII.

I declare Russians Non-human? I ignore presumption of innocence? Those are quite the accusations levelled at me.

How did you miss this? In bold even?

I think it would be great if the US and Russia actually tried to sit down and work together, so I see nothing wrong with Trump doing that if that were all there is to it.



Equality is when you see a person - not a label.
progpen
Posted: Friday, September 01, 2017 8:33:44 AM

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TheParser wrote:
As the resident middle-of-the-roader in these forums...

Liar Liar Liar


Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter. ― Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.
progpen
Posted: Friday, September 01, 2017 8:37:57 AM

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Y111 wrote:
progpen wrote:
Just makes me wonder. What if the roles were reversed and a candidate for president in Russia conspired with the US to rig Russian elections.

I don't have a clear idea, actually. It would be interesting to see. But our liberal opposition would likely approve of that. They are pro-West and like visiting the US embassy, so why not?


I think we all have a pretty good idea how something like that would end.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/putin-implicated-in-fatal-poisoning-of-former-kgb-spy-at-posh-london-hotel/2016/01/21/2c0c5052-bf92-11e5-98c8-7fab78677d51_story.html?utm_term=.522572c26361

The victim: an outspoken Kremlin critic who had defected to Britain, joined the payroll of British intelligence and accused Putin of vices­ including corruption and pedophilia. The killers: a pair of assassins who, the report found, were almost certainly acting on orders from the Russian spy service, the FSB, and who left a trail of radioactive evidence strewn across London. The weapons of choice: one teacup and one massive dose of a rare nuclear isotope, polonium.



Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter. ― Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.
Lotje1000
Posted: Friday, September 01, 2017 9:28:40 AM

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TheParser wrote:

Everyone (including the "liberals" themselves) know that IF the Russians had, in fact, interfered, and IF Ms. Hillary had won, then the "liberals" would be thanking the Russians for their help.

Emphasis mine.

Drag0nspeaker wrote:
"Some people say that the world is flat!" - meaning "I believe the world is flat" and implying that "millions of others agree with me" is using the phrase as weasel-words.
It is an example of "anonymous authority" as mentioned in the article The Parser refers to.


This is from TheParser's thread on Weasel words.
Hope123
Posted: Friday, September 01, 2017 9:28:43 AM

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TheParser wrote:
Y111 wrote:
Though you Westerners seem to believe it doesn't.




As the resident middle-of-the-roader in these forums, I can reassure you that the "liberals" are shedding crocodile tears over alleged Russian interference ONLY because they hope something can be found to force President Trump to step down.

Everyone (including the "liberals" themselves) know that IF the Russians had, in fact, interfered, and IF Ms. Hillary had won, then the "liberals" would be thanking the Russians for their help.

The "liberal" media think that they are very clever by filling their pages and TV screens with fake news, gossip, speculation, misinformation, and disinformation.

Oh, yes, the distraught "liberals" are lapping it all up, but the silent majority (and they ARE the majority) have tuned out and are not paying attention to what the media have to say.

The media have lost the American people.



He said westerners, not liberals. That includes you, Parser.

But he made a general statement while quoting my words. He meant me.

As for liberals thanking them that Hillary had won, that is absolute bs.

The attacks against the press are a sure sign of trying to stop them from holding their government accountable and thus are attacks against democracy.

Continued attacks by Parser whining against liberals who criticize a president when all presidents have to endure criticism seem to be an obsession. There are never are proofs submitted, or any chance of constructive discussion - just angry accusations.

Equality is when you see a person - not a label.
Drag0nspeaker
Posted: Friday, September 01, 2017 9:59:07 AM

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I think that, honestly no truly liberal person (not Liberal) would want either Hilary Clinton OR Donald Trump.

liberal
tolerant ; generous; advocating individual freedom; promoting actual freedom of expression or action, not dogmatic, not authoritarian.




Wyrd bið ful aræd - bull!
Y111
Posted: Friday, September 01, 2017 10:22:44 AM
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Hope123 wrote:

Four offices have determined Russia interfered including the Central Intelligence Agency, the National Security Agency, the FBI and the Director of National Intelligence Office. The then president of the United States did not issue sanctions against a country without being sure.

Some offices once determined there were weapons of mass destruction in Iraq. The then president of the US was also sure. Were they later found there? Maybe I missed something. Such an office is not a court anyway, hence my question about the presumption of innocence.

Hope123 wrote:

C'mon YIII.

I declare Russians Non-human?

Come on, Hope123, that was my speculation. I meant that declaring (by the US) Russia an enemy apparently means declaring Russians non-human because the presumption of innocence, which is part of human rights (unless I am mistaken, then please correct me), doesn't seem to work for them when Westerners talk about what crimes Russians have committed.

Hope123 wrote:

How did you miss this? In bold even?

I think it would be great if the US and Russia actually tried to sit down and work together, so I see nothing wrong with Trump doing that if that were all there is to it.

I didn't miss that. Not sure what you mean. It doesn't relate to the emails, does it?
Y111
Posted: Friday, September 01, 2017 10:45:56 AM
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What would be the reason? What situation do you actually have in mind? The candidate has become president? Or he/she lost the election and fled to the US? Even in the latter case, why bother? If Litvinenko was really assassinated by the FSB, he had worked hard to earn that.
progpen
Posted: Friday, September 01, 2017 12:47:01 PM

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Y111 wrote:

What would be the reason? What situation do you actually have in mind? The candidate has become president? Or he/she lost the election and fled to the US? Even in the latter case, why bother? If Litvinenko was really assassinated by the FSB, he had worked hard to earn that.


He deserved to be assassinated by radiation poisoning?

Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter. ― Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.
Y111
Posted: Friday, September 01, 2017 1:56:08 PM
Rank: Member

Joined: 6/25/2017
Posts: 113
Neurons: 543
Location: Kurgan, Kurgan, Russia
progpen wrote:

He deserved to be assassinated by radiation poisoning?

Whoever killed him apparently thought he did. Personally, I would not inflict such a death on anyone. But I am not a spy either.
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