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Senate Health Care Bill failure and the Trump coalition Options
Hope123
Posted: Thursday, July 27, 2017 11:11:20 PM

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Good thinking but I hope you don't have RA.

See Senate is pulling an all nighter on Healthcare.

(And "Mooch" is in trouble already. lol)

Until he extends the circle of his compassion to all living things, man will not himself find peace. Albert Schweitzer
Andrew Schultz
Posted: Friday, July 28, 2017 3:19:19 AM

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The bill failed 49-51. My head is spinning from all these votes, but it looks like McCain (along with Collins and Murkowski) stuck it to Trump. It feels like there's still a way to go to save Obamacare for good, but this is a huge setback for Mitch McConnell.

Part of me is slightly annoyed at what could be showmanship from McCain, but he stayed to his word about not voting for the bill.

Dean Heller's (NV) votes for repeal may make him the #1 target in the Senate in 2018 for Democrats.

Meanwhile, Lindsay Graham (R-South Carolina) and Cory Booker are working on a bill to prohibit Trump from firing Jeff Sessions to impede the Muller investigation.

100th person on TFD to 1 million neurons.
Hope123
Posted: Friday, July 28, 2017 10:54:04 AM

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According to this opinion piece, McCain's a hero again - and he wasn't captured this time! Whistle

Edited - I just read that the other two senators who voted against it were women. Why are they not the heroes too? One was threatened by Trump and by Interior Secretary Ryan Zinke, and one had a gender slur thrown at her - some House Republican members would challenge her to a duel if she were a man. Yet it is McCain that the authors say was the hero casting the deciding vote, saying he probably had the status (and the cancer diagnosis) when others could not vote "no". Huh? That makes the women even more heroic! And they have been against it from the start.

http://www.nbcnews.com/politics/first-read/how-john-mccain-saved-senate-republicans-themselves-n787366

The authors also talk about dysfunction and disunity in the West Wing and ended with this quote:
"The New York Times: “President Trump not only tolerates feuds within his team, he fuels them, playing one courtier off another and leaving them all unsteady. He chooses favorites and casts others aside, but even those decisions seem subject to change at any moody moment. And by several accounts, he personally encouraged Mr. Scaramucci’s jihad against Mr. Priebus, once again subjecting his chief of staff to a ritualistic public lashing even as he considered pushing him out.”



By the way, what does the party of family values think of Scaramucci’s tirade? Tweeted Erick Erickson: “Here’s the list of the President’s evangelical leaders team members who’ve expressed concern about Mooch’s language/behavior:” The kicker to Erickson’s tweet: There was no list."


Until he extends the circle of his compassion to all living things, man will not himself find peace. Albert Schweitzer
Hope123
Posted: Friday, July 28, 2017 5:29:09 PM

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Obamacare could be fixed - but that means the Republicans would have to give up their repeal of it and actually work together with the Dems and the insurance industry to change some rules and shore it up with some money.

But as FD is fond of saying something to this effect, "That would make sense and would be too easy."

http://www.politico.com/story/2017/07/28/save-obamacare-bipartisan-effort-241103


"Republicans could easily reduce premiums, increase the number of people with health insurance and stabilize the wobbly Obamacare markets.

The catch? They’d have to get past their stunning Senate loss on the repeal vote and work with Democrats to boost funding, set up new government programs and grant more state flexibility.

House and Senate lawmakers have already begun to contemplate a series of bipartisan fixes meant to shore up the Obamacare markets and prevent mass insurer defections. But those efforts — and the future of Obamacare markets serving roughly 10 million people — depend largely on whether GOP leadership is willing to set aside its repeal pledge after seven years.

There are signs of life on this front — a bipartisan House group of 40 lawmakers met Friday to discuss ways to stabilize Obamacare, even though conservatives want nothing to do with helping keep the law alive, much less pouring more money into the system."


Maybe they had better do something before 2018 rolls around.

What do Americans think? Any possibility of that happening?




Until he extends the circle of his compassion to all living things, man will not himself find peace. Albert Schweitzer
philips daughter
Posted: Friday, July 28, 2017 7:38:01 PM

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I was relieved that the Senate's repeal failed. I have a pre-existing condition and I was worried that my insurance would drop me. I would like to thank Senators McCain, Collins and Merkowski. The president has tried threatening them, one woman was told she should be taken outside and disciplined, Paul Ryan is saying the House of Representatives should keep trying to repeal so, no I'm not encouraged. I am not cheering. When I think of all the time and money wasted I'm angry. No one in Washington seems to be aware what North Korea is doing today. So much waste. Sad
boneyfriend
Posted: Friday, July 28, 2017 7:51:10 PM

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Hope, I think Donald Trump is the worst President who has ever served this country. There is nothing positive I can say about him. The reason Trump wanted Trumpcare was to step on the much respected and revered President Obama. Trump is all about himself, not what's best for this country. I have a wide circle of friends and I don't know any of them who do not despise Donald Trump. We are in for a long four years. I do not think he could get re-elected. Trump is a sad case.

There is no psychiatrist in the world like a puppy licking your face. Ben Williams
Andrew Schultz
Posted: Friday, July 28, 2017 9:21:39 PM

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Hope123 wrote:
According to this opinion piece, McCain's a hero again - and he wasn't captured this time! Whistle

Edited - I just read that the other two senators who voted against it were women. Why are they not the heroes too? One was threatened by Trump and by Interior Secretary Ryan Zinke, and one had a gender slur thrown at her - some House Republican members would challenge her to a duel if she were a man. Yet it is McCain that the authors say was the hero casting the deciding vote, saying he probably had the status (and the cancer diagnosis) when others could not vote "no". Huh? That makes the women even more heroic! And they have been against it from the start.

http://www.nbcnews.com/politics/first-read/how-john-mccain-saved-senate-republicans-themselves-n787366


Yes, Murkowski and Collins deserve a ton of credit. I saw a clip of Collins being applauded in a Bangor airport this morning. Collins takes a lot of heat from R's for being a RINO (Republican in Name Only) and D's for being a Fake Moderate. I know I was very upset she let Betsy DeVos's name out of committee before voting against DeVos.

Trump also grossly miscalculated with Murkowski, who just got reelected, so he can't threaten to primary her for, well, another four years. In fact, she has authority to put a hold on nominees for the Interior because of her committee (sub-)chairmanships, and that gives her an upper hand. Oops! The art of the deal, eh?

Collins will probably retire and run for governor of Maine in 2018. So she can and should tack to the center. She probably will win, and she'll be light years better than LePage, who wouldn't have won either term without a spoiler from the Left. LePage is not quite a Trump-level bad person in my book, but he's close.

McCain does have a flair for the dramatic. However, I read that by bringing up the bill and voting against it, McCain made sure it could not be brought up again for another year. He and his staff understand the procedures of the Senate well enough to know how to make a maximum impact, and he deserves credit for knowing that so the Senate can't just keep voting and voting and voting. And for keeping his intentions under his belt until the Republicans flew him back to Washington.

So each of the 3 senators that voted no is in a unique position and each made the most of it. But I agree Murkowski and Collins took more mudslinging on a personal level, because they were opposed to it longer, and they will in the future. The press likes McCain, and not just for all the sacrifices he made. Murkowski and Collins aren't as well known. So...yes, it was good to see a lot of Democrats tweeting thank-yous to Murkowski and Collins.

On the other side, Chuck Schumer deserves credit for keeping the caucus together. Conservative Dems like Joe Manchin (WV) and Heidi Heitkamp (ND) will take heat for their votes. But I've been impressed with Manchin's appearances on political shows.

100th person on TFD to 1 million neurons.
Hope123
Posted: Saturday, July 29, 2017 12:15:07 AM

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Andrew, thank you for taking the time to explain all that to me (and others). I did not know that McCain stopped them from voting for a year, nor the backgrounds of the two women. I do so hope for the sake of Americans that the GOP accept Pelosi's offer to work together to repair the ACA. I don't understand why you say those two Dems will take heat for their votes. Because they are supposed to be Conservative even though they are Dems and they voted against repeal?

Washington Post opinion piece says he's a lame duck president because of this. Really?

Do many Americans want universal care as I read somewhere in the news tonight?

I hope you don't mind me posting an opinion piece I just read in the Canadian Globe and Mail, because it explains so aptly what we are thinking about this whole healthcare thing.


"Republicans are labouring to strip just enough people of their health insurance to satisfy the conservative wing of their party without alienating the at-least-recognizes-that-many-of-their-constituents-rely-on-medicare wing of that bird, and it's not going well.

Canadians watch Americans grapple with health care and it's like we're watching early man, standing frozen half to death in midwinter. We're all like "Guys, just rub two sticks together!"

But, no, 300 million Americans stand there, teeth chattering, each holding a stick, arguing day-in-day-out, "What is to be done?"

https://beta.theglobeandmail.com/opinion/a-confederacy-of-idiots-if-only-it-were-that-innocent/article35827128/


Until he extends the circle of his compassion to all living things, man will not himself find peace. Albert Schweitzer
philips daughter
Posted: Saturday, July 29, 2017 1:10:21 AM

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Hi Hope. Senators Collins and Markowski are Republicans. Now you see how heroic they are.
Andrew Schultz
Posted: Saturday, July 29, 2017 2:24:29 AM

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Hope123 wrote:
Andrew, thank you for taking the time to explain all that to me (and others). I did not know that McCain stopped them from voting for a year, nor the backgrounds of the two women. I do so hope for the sake of Americans that the GOP accept Pelosi's offer to work together to repair the ACA. I don't understand why you say those two Dems will take heat for their votes. Because they are supposed to be Conservative even though they are Dems and they voted against repeal?

Washington Post opinion piece says he's a lame duck president because of this. Really?

Do many Americans want universal care as I read somewhere in the news tonight?

I hope you don't mind me posting an opinion piece I just read in the Canadian Globe and Mail, because it explains so aptly what we are thinking about this whole healthcare thing.


"Republicans are labouring to strip just enough people of their health insurance to satisfy the conservative wing of their party without alienating the at-least-recognizes-that-many-of-their-constituents-rely-on-medicare wing of that bird, and it's not going well.

Canadians watch Americans grapple with health care and it's like we're watching early man, standing frozen half to death in midwinter. We're all like "Guys, just rub two sticks together!"

But, no, 300 million Americans stand there, teeth chattering, each holding a stick, arguing day-in-day-out, "What is to be done?"

https://beta.theglobeandmail.com/opinion/a-confederacy-of-idiots-if-only-it-were-that-innocent/article35827128/


Hi Hope,

Glad you found this useful, and glad to clarify! Yes, you are correct. North Dakota and West Virginia went heavily for Trump in the Presidential election. They have a lot of Republican voters. Heitkamp is up for re-election in 2018. She will be targeted. Claire McCaskill(Missouri) and Jon Tester(Montana) are two other Democrats that could be targeted in their re-election campaigns. But all 48 of the D's have stuck together, and that's impressive.

Manchin in particular gets heat as I've heard "DINO" and "he might as well be a Republican" occasionally on sites like Dailykos.com.

But Shelley Moore Capito, the other West Virginia senator, is a Republican and voted for skinny repeal though she expressed serious reservations.

As for the Globe and Mail editorial: I think flattery is more ingrained in the American culture than it should be. And we get flattered by our politicians: "the best country in the world." And flattery has a way of not making people think straight. We can buy into American exceptionalism about things we shouldn't. People can be suckered into thinking giving wealthy people lots of money is the cause of America's power and not a result of that power plus lack of vigilance.

There was also a lot of negative publicity of Obamacare. I don't know if you remember "Death Panels" but this actually was a thing. There were even people with "GOVERNMENT HANDS OFF MY MEDICARE" posters, which--well, it IS a government program. How do you argue with that? It's hard!

Perhaps people seeing so many others saying "I or my family wouldn't be alive without Obamacare/will die without it" will give them pause.

100th person on TFD to 1 million neurons.
Drag0nspeaker
Posted: Saturday, July 29, 2017 4:04:57 AM

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I realise that I'm looking in from 3000 (or more) miles away, but I still (despite very good explanations from FounDit, Progpen and some other American members - and some good articles from Hope) don't understand why American politics is all 'personality'.

"Obamacare" does not exist.
Since at latest 1989 (and probably even before that) Congress have been discussing/arguing about how to make Medicare universal (so that 100% of American citizens have coverage).
It seems to have been started by the Republicans around that time.
In 1993, the HEART Act (also Republican) included universal coverage.
Even as late as 2006, Republican Mitt Romney enacted universal mandatory coverage in his state.
Quote:
"I'm proud of what we've done. If Massachusetts succeeds in implementing it, then that will be the model for the nation."

In 2007, one Republican and one Democrat together proposed the 'Healthy Americans Act'.

The eventually enacted 'Affordable Care Act' was very much a synthesis of Romney's Act and the 'Healthy Americans Act'.

OK - the Democrats in Congress 'tweaked' the details and Obama was the president who pushed for it to be enacted. He ended up being the president who signed it.
But it was not "Obama's idea".

Is it not possible to just look at "Are there now more people able to get good medical treatment?"
"Are there still Americans dying because they can't get treatment? If so, how do we improve it?"
This, rather than "It was enacted by Obama so it must be good/bad."





Wyrd bið ful aræd - bull!
Hope123
Posted: Sunday, July 30, 2017 7:24:52 PM

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A question for the Americans - Why is it an indictable offence to threaten a member of government unless it is another member of government doing the threatening? This does not make sense. Are some people above the law?

Heat is one thing but threats against you, your job, or your state are another. Does it have to be a physical threat of bodily injury?

Threats and bullying are the only "persuasion" tactics I have seen happening in this US government in six months.

Until he extends the circle of his compassion to all living things, man will not himself find peace. Albert Schweitzer
Romany
Posted: Monday, July 31, 2017 7:14:40 AM
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Drago & Hope -

I think these are all part of a general conversation around the world. What's going on now is simply inexplicable to those outside of North America - on so many levels. It's as though a huge family dog just rolled over and we saw for the first time that his entire belly and chest were covered in fleas and ticks and lice and sores...and we had just never realised.

We look at a country we all thought we knew. Where everyone was pretty much the same as us. Whose Government had the same gravitas and respect we give to ours. Where codes of ethics and morality are mutually understood and defended. And who live lives parallel to our own.

Now that hasn't changed. Most of America is pretty much the same as we've always seen. But, for the first time we, outside, have discovered this whole other side. It's the very antithesis of any other Industrial Nation. It's primitive and nature there is red in both tooth and claw. And it's this that unsettles us.

Every country has minority groups. People who group together to go and greet space aliens, or who subscribe to conspiracy theories, or who are neo-Nazis. There's all sorts, all over, and we tolerate them fairly amicably while keeping an eye on them.

But not to be able to stop a minority group taking over every arm of a Government? Influencing the fate of the world? Putting our whole planet in danger?

Most of the world is angry about that. Angry because no man is an island. And we are powerless in the face of one man... who diminishes us all. Not just because he is one man holding the planet's fate in his hands - but because he is backed by acolytes rather than politicians. And no-one was able to stop it happening?

That, I guess, is the source of most anger. And for millions of people around the world comes the thought "And this is the country that invaded us and killed so many, to bring us their democracy?".

And those people aren't just angry, but now feel justified in their anger. While the USA continues to bare its backside to the rest of the world, unfortunately, the hitherto contained and unexpressed causes for grievance against America, increase in volume as people everywhere unite in expressing it openly

And still people talk about sustaining this for another three and a half years? The world is to balance on a razor's edge for another 3+ years? We're to let this man and his people take charge of our reality? We are to watch the world slide backwards? And to bring children into a world which at the touch of a 'send' button could destroy itself in futile war?

It's not that I think that it's not going to happen. Its just that I don't think it's possible. Because Pandora, it seems, has let all the evils out of her box...and even *Hope is wasting away.

*Obviously, I didn't mean our Hope. I meant the one in Pandora's box.
Hope123
Posted: Monday, July 31, 2017 11:24:03 AM

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Hi Romany. Once again you have written with similes and metaphors to explain exactly and picturesquely what many people of the world are feeling.

Justification of anger being one.

I had heard and seen some indications of this other side in my extended stays in the US but I had no idea it was so extensive. I am angry but for the first time, as I feel we have just lost our friend and neighbor. That all they want to do is screw us. Canada who supplies most of their oil, who has always been a good neighbor and trading partner. Of course everyone wants to do the best for their country as possible in a trading agreement, but the idea is that all partners come out with benefits. That is not the outlook of this administration. It is - we want it all, and we're bigger and more powerful and we'll bully you.

Our negotiator walked away last time till they got the dispute clause and they had better be ready to walk away again now.

And from posts on this Forum, my eyes are now opened as to what victims of war and the spreading of "their" democracy are feeling.

When I was fighting with T supporters on the Forum against this man who lacks humanity, my big concern was how other opposing countries were going to take advantage of an administration with no experience and cause a catastrophe. And I have seen that beginning to happen from day one.

When I read people on Twitter using even Ted Kennedy and McCain's brain cancer as cruel partisan talking points, it makes me sick to my stomach. I just don't understand what has happened in my lifteime that we have arrived at such an inhumane time in human relationships. And make no mistake. It is spreading in Canada and perhaps elsewhere, emboldened by this self-serving idiot who encourages the police to rough suspects up as they take them into custody. Innocent until proven guilty and humane treatment of all are other values he just flushed down the sewer. (moving Guantanamo to the US?)

Until he extends the circle of his compassion to all living things, man will not himself find peace. Albert Schweitzer
Romany
Posted: Monday, July 31, 2017 12:12:30 PM
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I think that the anger has always been there, but for the sake of peace and amity, it doesn't get acknowledged. But now that the White House has set itself up so publicly as permitting Truth to be trashed to the point where she has lost both her capital letter and her reputation; there's also a certain amount of smugness too, I think?

Whatever the swirling attitudes now, there's also something to think about: he said he wanted isolationism? Well in 6 months he's delivered bugger-all campaign promises. Except for one promise he only brought up outside of his ra-ra rallies a few times;- that the United States was bigger n' better than the rest of the world put together so they would flourish like the green bay tree without the support of friends and allies?

Well that's the one thing he's well on the way to actually over-achieving: being an old man, sitting alone at a table while the movers & shakers of the world politely step round him.

"Is this how it ends? Not with a bang, but with a whimper?"
Romany
Posted: Monday, July 31, 2017 12:12:32 PM
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I think that the anger has always been there, but for the sake of peace and amity, it doesn't get acknowledged. But now that the White House has set itself up so publicly as permitting Truth to be trashed to the point where she has lost both her capital letter and her reputation; there's also a certain amount of smugness too, I think?

Whatever the swirling attitudes now, there's also something to think about: he said he wanted isolationism? Well in 6 months he's delivered bugger-all campaign promises. Except for one promise he only brought up outside of his ra-ra rallies a few times;- that the United States was bigger n' better than the rest of the world put together so they would flourish like the green bay tree without the support of friends and allies?

Well that's the one thing he's well on the way to actually over-achieving: being an old man, sitting alone at a table while the movers & shakers of the world politely step round him.

"Is this how it ends? Not with a bang, but with a whimper?"
Romany
Posted: Monday, July 31, 2017 12:12:45 PM
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I think that the anger has always been there, but for the sake of peace and amity, it doesn't get acknowledged. But now that the White House has set itself up so publicly as permitting Truth to be trashed to the point where she has lost both her capital letter and her reputation; there's also a certain amount of smugness too, I think?

Whatever the swirling attitudes now, there's also something to think about: he said he wanted isolationism? Well in 6 months he's delivered bugger-all campaign promises. Except for one promise he only brought up outside of his ra-ra rallies a few times;- that the United States was bigger n' better than the rest of the world put together so they would flourish like the green bay tree without the support of friends and allies?

Well that's the one thing he's well on the way to actually over-achieving: being an old man, sitting alone at a table while the movers & shakers of the world politely step round him.

"Is this how it ends? Not with a bang, but with a whimper?"
progpen
Posted: Monday, July 31, 2017 1:20:50 PM

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I've spent the past 30 years talking about those fleas, ticks and open sores. I've jumped up and down on forums like this, waving my arms and saying "it's not about this election. It's not about any 2 or 3 elections and the answers are not contained in either of the big two political parties."

Gerrymandering and voter suppression in an of themselves are enough to make the banana republic label stick, but wait, there's more! Not only do you get gerrymandering and voter suppression, but for no extra charge, I'll throw in a very poorly camouflaged corporate oligarchy and class warfare.

Having Democrats and Republicans at each other's throats is not only fun and cathartic, but it ensures that noone is actually paying attention to who benefits. A trillion dollar hand out to the wealthiest individuals and corporations in the US has been relabeled as a "health care" issue, but Democrats and Republicans have decided that doing what corporate interests demand of them is better than actually fixing anything. Rather than talk about the largest proposed corporate welfare handout in US history, all either side can do is talk about the distraction du jour as served by their corporate masters.

Draining the public sector and siphoning off those resources to the private interests has worked swimmingly. The Republicans strut around saying, "see, I told you these public services suck eggs" knowing full well that they suck eggs specifically because the Republicans defunded those projects until they could no longer function. Defunding our schools has also succeeded in creating very effective class segregation. Now, defunding health care will ensure that the overall health of individuals in the country will be dictated by their economic class.

Those fleas, ticks and oozing open sores have always been there. It's just that anyone who tried to bring them to people's attention was given a tin foil hat and dismissed.

Be kind but be fierce. You are needed now more than ever before. Take up the mantel of change. For this is your time.
Hope123
Posted: Monday, July 31, 2017 3:24:21 PM

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Progpen, so what is it that FD talks about pendulums and the getting back to the good old days that is supposedly starting to happen now, just happening slowly? He said something about the last fifty years - I can't remember what.

You both think there is something wrong, but he thinks the Trump admin is going to take it back to better days. ???

Edited to add - Why did half the people think that cutting corporate taxes to 15% and putting millionaires in charge of the hen house was going to get THEM jobs and benefit THEM, especially after seeing how Trump stiffed those subcontractors who did work for him and didn't pay taxes himself to boot? They must have ignored those facts for some reason.

Romany, I certainly would prefer whimpers to bangs - especially loud ones. 😀

Until he extends the circle of his compassion to all living things, man will not himself find peace. Albert Schweitzer
progpen
Posted: Monday, July 31, 2017 3:30:12 PM

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There is no pendulum. The pendulum is a myth created to placate those who question the status quo. "Just let us do our thing and even when we screw everything up for you, you just have to wait for your turn, because of that wonderful pendulum."

Be kind but be fierce. You are needed now more than ever before. Take up the mantel of change. For this is your time.
Hope123
Posted: Monday, July 31, 2017 4:17:42 PM

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I guess we're done with HC until something else happens?

Finally I see somebody talking about this - but will anything come of it is anybody's guess.


http://thehill.com/blogs/pundits-blog/the-administration/344627-trump-abuses-power-in-using-public-funds-for-private


Until he extends the circle of his compassion to all living things, man will not himself find peace. Albert Schweitzer
progpen
Posted: Friday, August 11, 2017 9:12:23 AM

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https://www.mprnews.org/story/2017/08/11/poll-most-say-time-to-end-effort-repeal-obamacare
http://www.kff.org/health-reform/poll-finding/kaiser-health-tracking-poll-august-2017-the-politics-of-aca-repeal-and-replace-efforts/
http://www.kff.org/polling/

A national poll released Friday by the non-partisan Kaiser Family Foundation shows that around 4 in 5 (78%) of those polled want the current administration and the Republican leaders to stop trying to repeal the ACA and focus on fixing it.

"The majority of the public are unaware that health insurance companies choosing not to sell insurance plans in certain marketplaces or health insurance companies charging higher premiums in certain marketplaces only affect those who purchase their own insurance on these marketplaces (67 percent and 80 percent, respectively). In fact, the majority of Americans think that health insurance companies charging higher premiums in certain marketplaces will have a negative impact on them and their family, while fewer (31 percent) say it will have no impact."





Be kind but be fierce. You are needed now more than ever before. Take up the mantel of change. For this is your time.
progpen
Posted: Friday, August 11, 2017 9:18:50 AM

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One good sign is that 60% of those polled hold the GOP and the current administration responsible for any further issues (rate increases, plan scarcity, lack of coverage) with the ACA.

Be kind but be fierce. You are needed now more than ever before. Take up the mantel of change. For this is your time.
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