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Senate Health Care Bill failure and the Trump coalition Options
Andrew Schultz
Posted: Tuesday, July 18, 2017 11:28:53 AM

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Susan Collins (Maine) and Rand Paul (Kentucky) were already public "no"s on the bill. That meant if one more Republican senator defected, they would not have the votes to pass the bill.

What's significant about this is who the next two senators were. They weren't the ones most people were expecting. Senators Capito and Heller had expressed doubts.

Jerry Moran and Mike Lee are from the *very* Republican states of Kansas.

Senators don't like Trump. They've had enough covering for him. And while health care isn't world politics, this is a huge slap in the face to Mitch McConnell (the Senate Majority Leader) and Trump.

Lawrence O'Donnell notes, here, how the first vote went, how McConnell pulled the bill once it was clear to him that far fewer than 49 senators would vote for it. It may be a bit dry if you're not interested in politics, but the gist of things is: the Republican majority is not as strong as it should be. It's not just Democrats resisting Trump. And while health care is sort of a distraction from Russia, it shows that Trump doesn't see eye to eye with Republicans on what he hoped would be his first signature accomplishment.

The link below starts 4 minutes in to skip over the background information.

https://youtu.be/Z2MvD7geGF8?t=249

Harry Reid's former chief of staff has notes on what he thinks happens. Now, obviously, it's going to be biased, since Reid was the minority leader until he retired, but I found it fascinating: https://twitter.com/AJentleson/status/887137073785909250

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progpen
Posted: Tuesday, July 18, 2017 7:52:27 PM

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It looks like the GOP has realized that their tax cut for the .01% wealthiest in the country is not seen as a good thing, even to their own constituents. It seems that these constituents don't like having valuable things taken away from them only to be given to the wealthy. To the rest of the world this might seem like a "well, DUH!" moment, but these constituents have been relied upon to vote against their own wellbeing for many years. So the pushback that the GOP has seen on this has taken them completely by surprise.

Now the GOP will have to find something else to take away from the masses to give to the wealthy, because I doubt very much that the handout they promised is just going to be forgotten.

Be kind but be fierce. You are needed now more than ever before. Take up the mantel of change. For this is your time.
Romany
Posted: Tuesday, July 18, 2017 8:19:58 PM
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Well golly gee - maybe they're getting to the end of what they CAN take away? Let's see, so far they've taken away

a) everyone's security regarding their health care
b) women's autonomy
c) clean air
d) clean water
e) peace across the land
f) respect for the Law
g) respect for truth
h) the credibility of their Governance....oh and
i) dignity.

Yet Trump's still so broke that he had to use the campaign funds donated by his supporters to pay for a lawyer for his shady and immoral son's lawyer?
(Give me patience!)

So, yeah, dunno what it could be, but maybe they'll manage to scrape away a bit more if they put their minds to it.
Hope123
Posted: Tuesday, July 18, 2017 10:44:32 PM

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From some things I've read on this forum some Trump supporters do not want government healthcare of any kind. In fact that is why some of the GOP did not and will not vote for Trumpcare. They are the purists - no socialism allowed. There is a solid group of them in the GOP Congress. The Senate seems to be different?

The Americans who don't want it are the ones who have their employee healthcare or can afford to buy their own.

Here is what an emperor wrote to Queen Victoria talking about how the British got the Chinese to want opium. "By putting profit above all things, they are disregarding the harm they do to others. Where is your conscience?" But to no avail.

Do you think that plea would change Trump's mind or the minds of most of the GOP?

Many other Trump supporters do not want to lose their Obamacare.

Instead of telling Congress that if Obamacare needs help to fix it, what does Trump say? Astonishingly that he won't own its failure. I have news for you, President Trump - you DO own it. The buck stops with you. You wanted to be president so start acting like one who cares for ALL Americans. All the uncertainty has caused some insurance companies to pull out and others to raise premiums far more than they would have if T had promised to fund it to 2018. One company afmitted that they went from 8.8 % to a 23% raise in premiums because of the uncertainty.

But it will take a while for it to fail completely if it does, so the people will probably get a chance to denote their disapproval in 2018. People will rise up when they have no security - in this case with their votes.

Good luck to the Americans who want healthcare for all!

Until he extends the circle of his compassion to all living things, man will not himself find peace. Albert Schweitzer
Drag0nspeaker
Posted: Wednesday, July 19, 2017 1:23:45 AM

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This is broader, I think, than purely the health-care disagreement.

There are some people for whom freedom of the individual means 'freedom of each individual to take what he can from others'.
This is some people's idea of the American moral code. It's not what I think the original Constitution meant.

It is the 'cowboy' attitude - the fastest gunslinger rules the town.
The ranch-boss with the biggest bunch of followers takes all the land.

It translates to the way American businessmen are often portrayed in film - competing with fellow-workers, back-biting, fighting to gain some advantage over others.

It is the epitome of Darwinian "The Survival of the Strongest". An anarchy in which only those willing to climb over their fellows rule.

Anarchism exists in many different forms. Some on the far right believe in total individualism and voluntarism, while others on the far left believe that complete collectivism can replace the state.
Farlex Financial Dictionary

I don't feel that this is how "Americans" (as a whole) really feel, but it does seem to be part of the indoctrination in early life (from what I understand) and it is the way the American government seems to be set up right now.

People with this attitude could never support a real health-care system - if someone is sick, they are weak - if they can't survive, they die. Pure Darwin.


Wyrd bið ful aræd - bull!
Romany
Posted: Wednesday, July 19, 2017 5:34:32 AM
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Andrew - we don't find it dry and boring - it is one of the biggest divides between the USA and all other democracies. It is something that puzzles and disconcerts us; it goes against everything that other democracies believe in.

But I would never cast those who don't believe in good outcomes for the whole of society as 'individualists.' That's just another 'soft' euphemism for 'selfish' or even 'anarchistic' - for if you don't want good outcomes for your own people then peace, truth, forgiveness, empathy, law, have no meaning - and are even seen as weaknesses.

We know that most Americans of course, see the sense and practicality of having a healthy population and, especially, healthy, strong children for a new generation. Also, healthy children make better students; but a workforce who looks upon life's little bumps (to the rest of us) of having tonsils pulled, or giving birth, or breaking a leg, as a catastrophe that could ruin their entire family? That's unhealthy.

How could you possibly have uniform high-achievers in the working classes, or make the workplace anything other than a toxic environment with the spectre of calamity haunting your every waking moment?

No wonder people are always fighting and shooting each other and suffer huge depressions and mental stress - if you''re fighting to keep Johhny on his asthma meds. or Mum to overcome cervical cancer it's no wonder we see the movies Drago mentioned - where workplaces look like minor versions of hell! PLUS....no holidays? Is there any other free country in the world who doesn't give workers holiday? Even medieval serfs got time off. With no proper medical aid; and no holidays to refresh and renew, no wonder American have shorter life-spans than the other developed countries.

Again - you guys have been hearing all this 'individualistic' bullshit all your lives, and hearing the rest of the world damned as 'socialists' or 'Commies' and observing different ways to solve problems by looking around at the rest of the world. We are only just learning about it. (The Holiday thing was the single biggest shock so far. Even China gives workers holidays!).

However, I'm still very chin-up about outcomes. Now this current mob has robbed America of its place in the world I'm more sure than ever that, once this current nightmare is over, valuable lessons will have been learnt and measures put in place so that this could never happen again. Gawd, the world just couldn't take it a second time!!
Andrew Schultz
Posted: Wednesday, July 19, 2017 5:52:28 PM

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Hope123 wrote:
From some things I've read on this forum some Trump supporters do not want government healthcare of any kind. In fact that is why some of the GOP did not and will not vote for Trumpcare. They are the purists - no socialism allowed. There is a solid group of them in the GOP Congress. The Senate seems to be different?

The Americans who don't want it are the ones who have their employee healthcare or can afford to buy their own.


Well, the House passed the bill knowing that it would go to the Senate. The Senate has the final say--not quite, but enough that the House can say "OK, we tried to do something."

The House's games are based on the same "repeal Obamacare" bluff that the House/Senate used with Obama in power.

Drag0nspeaker wrote:
This is broader, I think, than purely the health-care disagreement.

There are some people for whom freedom of the individual means 'freedom of each individual to take what he can from others'.
This is some people's idea of the American moral code. It's not what I think the original Constitution meant.


I think in general it can also be embarrassing to admit you need help or you can't do it all by yourself. What's more, cognitive dissonance makes it hard for anyone to change their minds about this.

Plus people who do take, take, take have been glorified since Reagan was in charge in the 80s, and the punishment for doing so, well, could be harsher. And we hear more about the Dow Jones industrial index than how everyday people are doing.

There also is some politics of resentment. People may think they deserve healthcare, but, well, others don't. http://www.snopes.com/lbj-convince-the-lowest-white-man/

Then there's also the welfare queen story, which is more complex than it seems: http://www.npr.org/sections/codeswitch/2013/12/20/255819681/the-truth-behind-the-lies-of-the-original-welfare-queen.

Romany, I'm glad it's interesting to people outside America. I realize how little I know about other countries' politics, and how much other countries' citizens seem to know about ours.

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Romany
Posted: Wednesday, July 19, 2017 6:48:39 PM
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Andrew -

Until last November I didn't know what a Republican or a Democrat even was! Don't feel bad mate: we know only because it's pushed out to us 24/7. (And I don't even own a TV or a radio!) It's pretty much reached critical mass outside the USA.

In fact, as I've mentioned before, we seem to be ahead of you in getting news of all the other terrible things that are happening while TV hosts keep people focused solely on Healthcare, and rattling sabres; we appear to be getting a wider view. Which doesn't really make sense, does it?

So really, don't feel daft for not knowing - unless one is into politics I don't suppose the very famous 'average person' can keep up-to-date either no matter what country they are from.
FounDit
Posted: Thursday, July 20, 2017 11:38:15 AM

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And if the only information you are getting is from the lop-sided, biased view of the media, you really don't know what is going on in the heartland of the country.

In fact, most of the media don't know either. That's why they continually get it wrong in their reporting, why they don't understand how Trump got elected, or why so many people are loyal to him, and why they can't seem to put a dent in the loyalty of his followers.

It's also why those of you who have swallowed the media narrative whole don't understand either. But that's okay. You will eventually understand as time goes by. There is a sea change underway. The political Left senses it, and that is making them lose their collective sanity on a daily basis. It's kind of fun to watch it happen.


A great many people will think they are thinking when they are merely rearranging their prejudices. ~ William James ~
progpen
Posted: Thursday, July 20, 2017 6:55:34 PM

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Drag0nspeaker wrote:
This is broader, I think, than purely the health-care disagreement.


The current issues that the GOP are running up against have very little to do with health care, this is because they only want to get rid of the current health care system in order to pay for a trillion dollar handout to the wealthiest in the US.

This is why the GOP is paying so little attention to the actual contents of their own proposals. The health care system is just a piggy bank for them.

Be kind but be fierce. You are needed now more than ever before. Take up the mantel of change. For this is your time.
Hope123
Posted: Friday, July 21, 2017 12:52:11 AM

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This is why Trump got elected and why 36% still support him - it doesn't matter how stupid and outrageous the things are the interviewer tells them Trump has done (and the stupid things he says and does in real life) they find a way to rationalize it to fit their belief that he is the greatest thing since sliced bread.

https://youtu.be/glUOprx56sU

So congratulations to the current administration from Canada - some folks have been keeping track and we don't do fake news here so one can't try to blame it on that.

Six months in office
- worst approval rating at this point ever, including loss of some base, highest disapproval rating ever in US at this point, highest world disapproval rating
- 991 tweets.
- 397 major lies
- from the White House itself - not including the president and his lawyer or typos - six months of identification errors and spelling - I
guess the non elite Whistle who understand the whole political scene have no proof readers? Everybody makes a few mistakes but...

0 - that's zero - pieces of major legislation Even with control of all three branches. The WH has several warring factions and the party itself is split probably three ways. Many government posts are still not filled so how can a government operate properly like that?

(They did it for a while but stopped counting the Mar a Lago trips, the days golfing, and the number of rallies when he needed a "feel-good adulation fix".)

That certainly explains what is going on with the healthcare, Progpen. And why they need it to get to the tax reform that is not getting done.




Until he extends the circle of his compassion to all living things, man will not himself find peace. Albert Schweitzer
FounDit
Posted: Friday, July 21, 2017 9:05:25 AM

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And here, progpen and Hope demonstrate once again why the political Left has no clue what's really happening. But it will become more clear with time. Remember — it took 50 years to get to this point. It will take quite a bit of time to make the necessary changes to it, but it has begun.

Edit:
Democrats and Trump as the leaf...LOL

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qTQJdGp4F34

A great many people will think they are thinking when they are merely rearranging their prejudices. ~ William James ~
Hope123
Posted: Friday, July 21, 2017 10:28:04 AM

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FD, we may understand far more than you think. Just pointing out how things are working out for your experiment.

It is not just the Democrats. The Republicans are a divided party too. You will disagree out of hand immediately with the facts (nowadays I need to add true to the word facts?) in this article just because it is from mainstream media, but this article was written by an American in Florida and has statistics to back up what is and what might have been, but wasn't, the various causes for the election of Donald Trump and for what is happening in other countries, including mine. It was published in a reputable Canadian newspaper, “The Globe and Mail” after the election last fall.

From the words of the many Trump supporters interviewed, I have to agree.

White Washed

After all, the tragedy this week was not just that a radical faction within the white community broke away from the rest of the United States and elected an extremist, but that they abandoned the Democratic and Republican parties in the process, leaving mainstream politics without a language that can lead to victory.
If they want to end this nightmare, they will need to find a way to reach 60 million radicalized white people and find words that can bring them back to earth.”




Until he extends the circle of his compassion to all living things, man will not himself find peace. Albert Schweitzer
Andrew Schultz
Posted: Friday, July 21, 2017 12:19:57 PM

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Back in 2008, the conventional wisdom was that Republicans would be in the wilderness for a while. Then the Tea Party happened, then the 2010 midterms happened.

The party that takes on health care has historically lost seats. Clinton's failed 1994 bill, 2010 ... and now 2018?

People are starting to see what repealing Obamacare means. Indivisible/The Resistance is a thing, and it's not going away, and it's happening in red districts too.

And, yes, Collins, Murkowski and Capito have all publicly rebuked Trump for his sexist behavior and, more subjectively, they just look miserable around him. Trump embarrassed and strongarmed Dean Heller in public and insults Jeff Flake. It can't go on forever.

The problem with annoying "them-all" as Trump likes to do is, once you've annoyed them-all, you need more them-all to annoy. And he's found them!

Plus I've seen posts like FoundIt's before: the Left is going crazy, etc. Political trash talk and baiting always have been and always will be a thing. Here it's kind of the equivalent of grade schoolers yelling "Cry, Johnny, cry!"

That's surprisingly hard to deal with, though. You can't lash back at it. I think we've had some anger to express, but we've learned to deal with the worst of the baiting, and we're ready to move on and get results.

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Hope123
Posted: Friday, July 21, 2017 2:24:17 PM

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FD, I thought about your “last 50 years” comment and how you always talk about pendulums. I typed in “next American Revolution”. I got this website analyzing American discontent and the loss of democracy. It seems to have been written from the standpoint of the Right against Obama. It was written in January 2015, before Trump. However, an update was made to include Bernie Sanders and his “revolution”. The two "revolutions" seem to have the same complaints - they just go about solving the problems differently.

I have no idea what the site is and didn’t bother checking reliability.

Complaints Listed - War, money in government, corruption, inequality of people and wealth, the USA is heading towards fascism while losing the democracy it did have, etc.

http://www.amendmentgazette.com/2015/01/01/sparking-third-american-revolution/

In my opinion (which means nothing to anyone except me) I thought at the time that the Bathroom bit was just the last straw. Women incorrectly thought they were being forced to have penises in the women’s locker rooms and I wouldn’t want that either. And of course the Supreme Court was always the draw too. Republcans seem to have an obsession with abortion and telling others how to live their sexual lives.

However, if it really was that Hillary’s ties with Sachs Goldman speeches made her too corporate, putting millionaires with permanent ties to Sachs Goldman in charge of the government seems counter intuitive. I am not discussing Hillary, just making a comparison.

BUT - The thing is - the election was over six months ago but Trump's ego and his supporters can't seem to let it go. Fox News and even people on here, including you, are still talking about the big win and the change that is coming and gloating over how the Dems are having to regroup, and even still discussing Hillary, instead of talking about what is actually happening with policies as if that is too painful to admit and discuss when the rest of the US and world are critical - I actually feel kind of sorry for them.

What has to be dealt with right now is the present - citizens are upset about losing healthcare. Trump is threatening and bullying his own party. He is so patronizing to everybody, including other world leaders, that it is sickening to watch him.


There is a saying about jumping from the frying pan into the fire that fits here. Authoritarianism and bullying are not the ways of a democratic leader. There are no signs of getting rid of corruption and money in government - in fact it now seems to be ignored or even approved by Trump supporters. (and tax money is going to the rich and corporations)

If you don't want democracy or a change in the complaint list mentioned above, then all is well.

Until he extends the circle of his compassion to all living things, man will not himself find peace. Albert Schweitzer
progpen
Posted: Saturday, July 22, 2017 7:07:23 AM

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And the argument that progressives and the media don't know what is going on in "the heartland" is yet again another deflection. The GOP have continued to fall short on their Crusade to give a trillion in handouts to the wealthy because they have lost touch with "the heartland" and have been surprised at the push back they have received. They mistakenly equated "the heartland" with "right wing extremist", but have yet to figure out that this is not the case.

Be kind but be fierce. You are needed now more than ever before. Take up the mantel of change. For this is your time.
Andrew Schultz
Posted: Saturday, July 22, 2017 12:31:43 PM

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Hope123 wrote:
However, if it really was that Hillary’s ties with Sachs Goldman speeches made her too corporate, putting millionaires with permanent ties to Sachs Goldman in charge of the government seems counter intuitive. I am not discussing Hillary, just making a comparison.

BUT - The thing is - the election was over six months ago but Trump's ego and his supporters can't seem to let it go. Fox News and even people on here, including you, are still talking about the big win and the change that is coming and gloating over how the Dems are having to regroup, and even still discussing Hillary, instead of talking about what is actually happening with policies as if that is too painful to admit and discuss when the rest of the US and world are critical - I actually feel kind of sorry for them.

What has to be dealt with right now is the present - citizens are upset about losing healthcare. Trump is threatening and bullying his own party. He is so patronizing to everybody, including other world leaders, that it is sickening to watch him.


It's gotten kind of funny, reading/hearing "You lost! Deal with it!" but the moment we do anything constructive, it's "quit trying to change what happened six months ago!"

This is

1 moving the goalposts
2 just trying to get others to feel powerless to act, or to freeze them up long enough their actions don't mean enough.
3 important in a political or non-political setting to be able to understand and reject

Trump actually came out at one of his post-election rallies (speaking about not moving on) and said, well, you need people who understand money. So it is not about Goldman Sachs, just about getting people to believe him.

http://thehill.com/homenews/administration/338899-trump-touts-goldman-sachs-alum-at-rally-after-bashing-clinton-for

Sort of like how Mike Pence didn't deserve criticism for voting for the Iraq War, but Hillary Clinton did. http://thehill.com/blogs/ballot-box/presidential-races/288097-trump-on-pence-voting-for-iraq-war-i-dont-care

But all the same, tabulating this gets exhausting and, as Hope mentioned, eats us up if we list everything. But I bet we've all met someone in real life who flip flops like this as much as they can get away with it. Fortunately it gets easier with time to recognize this sort of person and some of the warning signs and not spend more emotion than necessary on them.

100th person on TFD to 1 million neurons.
progpen
Posted: Saturday, July 22, 2017 6:11:51 PM

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Hope123 wrote:
Six months in office
- worst approval rating at this point ever, including loss of some base, highest disapproval rating ever in US at this point, highest world disapproval rating
- 991 tweets.
- 397 major lies
- from the White House itself - not including the president and his lawyer or typos - six months of identification errors and spelling - I
guess the non elite Whistle who understand the whole political scene have no proof readers? Everybody makes a few mistakes but...

0 - that's zero - pieces of major legislation Even with control of all three branches. The WH has several warring factions and the party itself is split probably three ways. Many government posts are still not filled so how can a government operate properly like that?


Just a little more perspective here from Politifact:
http://www.politifact.com/personalities/donald-trump/

The PolitiFact scorecard

True 20 (5%)
Mostly True 50 (12%)
Half True 62 (15%)
Mostly False 90 (21%)
False 139 (33%)
Pants on Fire 66 (15%)




Be kind but be fierce. You are needed now more than ever before. Take up the mantel of change. For this is your time.
ellana
Posted: Sunday, July 23, 2017 8:05:49 AM
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I saw this article in a Kathmandu newspaper this morning and thought some of you might enjoy... by Nicholas Kristof of the NY Times.

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/07/20/opinion/republican-healthcare-trump-surgeon.html
will
Posted: Sunday, July 23, 2017 8:11:16 AM
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FounDit wrote:
And here, progpen and Hope demonstrate once again why the political Left has no clue what's really happening. But it will become more clear with time. Remember — it took 50 years to get to this point. It will take quite a bit of time to make the necessary changes to it, but it has begun.

Is this a prediction of the future, FounDit. Shame on you


.
FounDit
Posted: Sunday, July 23, 2017 10:21:53 AM

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will wrote:
FounDit wrote:
And here, progpen and Hope demonstrate once again why the political Left has no clue what's really happening. But it will become more clear with time. Remember — it took 50 years to get to this point. It will take quite a bit of time to make the necessary changes to it, but it has begun.

Is this a prediction of the future, FounDit. Shame on you
.


Not a prediction at all. It has begun and the evidence is right in front of you.

A great many people will think they are thinking when they are merely rearranging their prejudices. ~ William James ~
will
Posted: Sunday, July 23, 2017 10:45:47 AM
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FounDit wrote:
It will take quite a bit of time...


FounDit wrote:
Not a prediction at all.


Your grasp of the English language is failing you again Whistle


.
Andrew Schultz
Posted: Sunday, July 23, 2017 5:20:43 PM

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progpen wrote:
The PolitiFact scorecard

True 20 (5%)
Mostly True 50 (12%)
Half True 62 (15%)
Mostly False 90 (21%)
False 139 (33%)
Pants on Fire 66 (15%)


Oh, look, he got a majority! Only 48% of his comments were outright false! That's ... something. Whistle

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Hope123
Posted: Sunday, July 23, 2017 11:09:27 PM

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FounDit wrote : "It has begun and the evidence is right in front of you."


Finally! That's what we've been telling you forever! Whistle


Until he extends the circle of his compassion to all living things, man will not himself find peace. Albert Schweitzer
FounDit
Posted: Monday, July 24, 2017 11:47:16 AM

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I liked this post, Hope. There is much in it we could discuss, and I think agree on, but unfortunately, it has been my experience that such would not be the outcome. I truly wish we could do that, but too often I find my words changed to mean something I didn't say or intend, and then find four or five others coming at me as well, doing the same thing. It just isn't worth the time and effort. It becomes exhausting to challenge ephemeral rationalizations and trolling. So I thought I'd simply post a few things that stand out to me, and let it go at that.

Hope123 wrote:
FD, I thought about your “last 50 years” comment and how you always talk about pendulums. I typed in “next American Revolution”. I got this website analyzing American discontent and the loss of democracy. It seems to have been written from the standpoint of the Right against Obama. It was written in January 2015, before Trump. However, an update was made to include Bernie Sanders and his “revolution”. The two "revolutions" seem to have the same complaints - they just go about solving the problems differently.
This seems to be the pattern in everything we talk about here on the forum.

I have no idea what the site is and didn’t bother checking reliability.

Complaints Listed - War, money in government, corruption, inequality of people and wealth, the USA is heading towards fascism while losing the democracy it did have, etc.

http://www.amendmentgazette.com/2015/01/01/sparking-third-american-revolution/
I read a good bit of it, but found it overly long. By about a quarter of the way through, I had found a lot I agreed with, and a lot I did not agree with, primarily because of what you said above — differing ways to solve the problems, and sometimes differing views on exactly what the problems are.

In my opinion (which means nothing to anyone except me) I thought at the time that the Bathroom bit was just the last straw. Women incorrectly thought they were being forced to have penises in the women’s locker rooms and I wouldn’t want that either. And of course the Supreme Court was always the draw too. Republcans seem to have an obsession with abortion and telling others how to live their sexual lives.
I agree, but from their point of view, Democrats seem to be obsessed with pushing the issue to its extreme, resulting in situations like that of Dr. Gosnell, killing full term babies, and the seemingly cold-hearted approach to the selling of fetal parts. I have some empathy for both sides, and think an agreement could be reached if extremes could be avoided. But that's just me.

However, if it really was that Hillary’s ties with Sachs Goldman speeches made her too corporate, putting millionaires with permanent ties to Sachs Goldman in charge of the government seems counter intuitive. I am not discussing Hillary, just making a comparison.
It's another point of view thing. There is a difference between putting millionaire business men in charge of business decisions, and putting politicians under the thumb of millionaire businessmen in charge of decisions.

BUT - The thing is - the election was over six months ago but Trump's ego and his supporters can't seem to let it go. Fox News and even people on here, including you, are still talking about the big win and the change that is coming and gloating over how the Dems are having to regroup, and even still discussing Hillary, instead of talking about what is actually happening with policies as if that is too painful to admit and discuss when the rest of the US and world are critical - I actually feel kind of sorry for them.
Actually, I and everyone I know have let the election go. It's the Democrats and their "Russian collusion delusion" as it has been termed who won't let it go. That's why there is such an effort to impeach. It's spoken of openly by Senators like Maxine Waters.

But the change I'm talking about is an over-arching change, the pendulum change that takes many years, not the immediate things you see happening now. These are the micro-changes that have only just begun.

What has to be dealt with right now is the present - citizens are upset about losing healthcare. Trump is threatening and bullying his own party. He is so patronizing to everybody, including other world leaders, that it is sickening to watch him.

I agree that citizens are upset about losing healthcare. But Obamacare was designed to fail. That administration admitted it. Obamacare was supposed to lead to single-payer. And Trump is opposed by both Parties. The traditional mossbacks don't want him to succeed. It is people who are fed up with both Parties that put him in office. Of course, he will have to push them, but it isn't patronizing, it's force of will to accomplish what he was elected to do by his supporters.

There is a saying about jumping from the frying pan into the fire that fits here. Authoritarianism and bullying are not the ways of a democratic leader. You mean like, "You will buy this healthcare we have created or be fined" kind of authoritarianism? (couldn't resist. Too easy)There are no signs of getting rid of corruption and money in government - in fact it now seems to be ignored or even approved by Trump supporters. (and tax money is going to the rich and corporations)
Agreed there is corruption and too much money in government, but it isn't being ignored. That was the purpose of "draining the swamp". But the swamp isn't going to allow itself to be drained if it can help it, so it will fight back as hard as possible. But is there anyone who thinks it can be done in only the first six months? Get real. That is an effort that would take years, many years.

If you don't want democracy or a change in the complaint list mentioned above, then all is well.
A change in the complaint list is what was voted for, but too many don't want a change at all.


A great many people will think they are thinking when they are merely rearranging their prejudices. ~ William James ~
will
Posted: Monday, July 24, 2017 1:40:01 PM
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FounDit wrote:
I liked this post, Hope. There is much in it we could discuss, and I think agree on, but unfortunately, it has been my experience that such would not be the outcome. I truly wish we could do that, but too often I find my words changed to mean something I didn't say or intend, and then find four or five others coming at me as well, doing the same thing. It just isn't worth the time and effort. It becomes exhausting to challenge ephemeral rationalizations and trolling.
Ahh... poor baby. If you have the integrity, read back the tread you are clearly referring to and see who starts, and continues, the hubris and the name calling and the stereotyping. You reap what you sow.


.
progpen
Posted: Monday, July 24, 2017 4:02:14 PM

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FounDit wrote:
I truly wish we could do that, but too often I find my words changed to mean something I didn't say or intend...


Translation:
My words mean what I want them to mean at the time that anyone asks me what they mean, but only until I change the meaning the next time someone wants to know what I mean.

Be kind but be fierce. You are needed now more than ever before. Take up the mantel of change. For this is your time.
Hope123
Posted: Monday, July 24, 2017 4:20:01 PM

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FD, Let's call a truce. 🍺🍸 We used to be able to discuss the issues without ad hominem. We are all humans with feelings. If someone misunderstands then everybody should say so nicely in response to a specific point. Problem is, humans do see patterns and generalize and judge others and complain in a general fashion. You are brave to come on here knowing you are the only one who sees things your way, but since that is way the numbers are, if five others agree with me and are against your beliefs, I can't help that. I HAVE tried very hard to read and figure out exactly what you are saying at that particular point without taking other threads and your known beliefs into account for quite some time when you first complained about that. So it is not necessary to point that out to me any more. Sometimes you have misunderstood me as well.

I really do try to see your point of view (AND any opposing views I come across) - or at the very least your questions make me question my own beliefs and so I do more research - which is often why I then post what I just found - such as on the science threads. So as such, information and more discussion came from dissension and I have often, but not always, cemented my own beliefs.

Also, I do believe on the "Meanwhile" thread that Will laid out a good step by step post of what it is that bugs some people on here about "moving the goalposts" and resorting to complaining and ad hominem. I am not guilt free on any of these charges either - I do have a temper, I am impulsive, and I have responded in kind or even initiated it, but have tried hard not to do so for quite some time. Lotje also tried to list what we see how you maneuver in your posts, (Edited - and I see Propen has added a post here.) They are trying to be helpful and put some oil into the mix and I too would suggest you take a look at those closely and use them however you want. If you have other complaints about my writing, be my guest. Sorry, but I think I have given up on trying to write succinctly - it never happens! lol I started to write what ended up being the second (next) post with a short preface. Ha!


Also - If you would just stop saying "'Lefties' always". d'oh! Whistle Whistle Perhaps the Democratic Party's POV?

When my husband and I went for the mandatory counseling by the minister before we got married, the minister gave us a few good pieces of advice that I have tried to remember and apply - perhaps they might help to explain what I am trying to say here.

Never say "always" as in "you always". Keep it to the point being discussed. (Lefties or Democrats always.) (Besides Lefties are Southpaws. Whistle )
Say, "I feel such and such when", not "You make me feel". (Takes away the blame.)
Never call each other names - you can't take those words back. (ad hominem; and judging others - we all do it)
Always respect each other.

(My husband and I rarely agree completely on how to do things, but we discuss, not fight. We have each other's backs and consider each other to be our best friend. And I would add to the minister's list - have two bathrooms. Whistle )




Until he extends the circle of his compassion to all living things, man will not himself find peace. Albert Schweitzer
Hope123
Posted: Monday, July 24, 2017 4:22:59 PM

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Back to topic -

FounDit wrote: But the change I'm talking about is an over-arching change, the pendulum change that takes many years, not the immediate things you see happening now. These are the micro-changes that have only just begun.

This is a general statement. Can you be more specific? From my point of view the little things that I see that are happening that are being mentioned once by the media and then are gone as there is another outrageous tweet, are all negatives and tearing down in my book. I suspect those are the very things you think are positive but please give me more to work with, especially since you say they are not happening yet but will. I am interested to know exactly what you mean. I do recall a lot of the history posts you have done before, so I don't mean that.

These are some of things I mean -
What just happened in Syria.
What just happened in Iran. (Tillerson is fed up.)
What just happened with Cuba.
Registered working paying-taxes long-term non-criminal parents who came as children being deported.
Regulations being removed that allow polluters to pollute the sacred air we breathe. No other intelligent creature puts poisons into a ncessity of life for all creatures.
Cutting budgets for clean water - well he tried.
Spending money on wars and walls instead of options to benefit the people. Single payer option does work if the will had been there.

::::

PS - have you ever watched during meetings with foreign dignitaries how Trump shakes hands, puts his hand on top, pats people on the hand or on the back several times? Yanking them in towards him to show who is in charge. That is what I mean by patronizing. Assuming you are the "top gun". So much so that foreign leaders have strategized how to stop him from doing that to them. Please - tell me you agree with this little point! Or at least watch carefully and see what I mean next time he is interacting with others.

Until he extends the circle of his compassion to all living things, man will not himself find peace. Albert Schweitzer
Hope123
Posted: Tuesday, July 25, 2017 4:02:13 PM

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FD, I reread your post and decided to respond again today more fully to the points you made. I don't think I misunderstood anything you said.

FD in blue, responses in red.

FounDit wrote:

I agree, but from their point of view, Democrats seem to be obsessed with pushing the issue to its extreme, resulting in situations like that of Dr. Gosnell, killing full term babies, and the seemingly cold-hearted approach to the selling of fetal parts. I have some empathy for both sides, and think an agreement could be reached if extremes could be avoided. But that's just me.


I agree about reaching agreements. Many countries have agreed that government should mind their own business and let the people involved be in charge of their own lives. Canada is one of them and the issue rarely comes up. Don't forget the abortion clinic doctors and staff who are targeted, even shot. And it is good that the doctor who killed full term babies is in jail for murder. If selling baby parts is really happening that is disgusting. I hope both of those cases are in the minority.

It's another point of view thing. There is a difference between putting millionaire business men in charge of business decisions, and putting politicians under the thumb of millionaire businessmen in charge of decisions.


I understand the words but don’t get the significance of your millionaire distinction statement. The millionaires are in there now even more so, trying to get huge tax cuts for themselves and corporations when they get around to tax reform, and trying to put in place a healthcare plan where it actually benefits the rich. That is rolling in the swamp like pigs, not draining it.

I agree that citizens are upset about losing healthcare. But Obamacare was designed to fail. That administration admitted it. Obamacare was supposed to lead to single-payer. And Trump is opposed by both Parties. The traditional mossbacks don't want him to succeed. It is people who are fed up with both Parties that put him in office. Of course, he will have to push them, but it isn't patronizing, it's force of will to accomplish what he was elected to do by his supporters.


I know the Obama admin tried to get universal care first, but settled for what they COULD get. I searched, and the only link that came up was a video of a disgruntled Republican opponent who also made allegations I know for a fact are untrue. So proof is needed for your assertion about "being designed to fail" that sounds a lot like propaganda by the opposition.

Back to Original Post - Looks as if millions of people are going to lose their healthcare today. When they do go to hammer out the differences between the two bills, (Congress and Senate) the Conservative Freedom Caucus will press to make it even meaner.

How is repealing Obamacare instead of fixing it, replacing it with the removal of millions and giving the government and the wealthy tax credits going to help them with those who voted for him but are also depending upon Obamacare? Numbers will be important.


You mean like, "You will buy this healthcare we have created or be fined" kind of authoritarianism? (couldn't resist. Too easy)

Sorry, not falling for the “offence is the best defence” ploy. Trump believes and acts as if he is banana republic strongman, criticizing and approaching the judicial branch for loyalty to him alone, and bullying/firing anybody who is investigating him or doesn’t go along with him. He also just “jokingly” threatened to fire his health secretary, Tom Price, another former Boy Scout, if an impending vote to repeal the act was not successful - in a BOY SCOUT speech no less.

(Parents are furious that he encouraged young vulnerable boys to boo a previous president and to inject politics into his speech. I won't say what they liken that to.)

Furthermore I find it very strange that you think having to buy health insurance is authoritarian. Do you have to pay taxes? That is just as authoritarian. Canadian healthcare is paid out of general revenues and I’m not sure if the special progressive healthcare tax they put in a while ago is still there. As a country we are more than happy to pay a modest amount to have universal healthcare. The only greedy dissenters are those who want it to become private so THEY can make money.

I'll put my Russia thoughts in another post.






Until he extends the circle of his compassion to all living things, man will not himself find peace. Albert Schweitzer
Hope123
Posted: Tuesday, July 25, 2017 4:28:53 PM

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One last comment in response - C’mon, FD. The Dems are making too much about the Russians?

I can’t imagine Canadians not being up in arms if that were happening here.

Trump could stop it easily - just release his financial dealings, put his business into a true blind trust, or testify himself. Trying to thwart the investigations just makes him and them look guiltier and guiltier. (I don’t usually speculate but what do you think? Is he going to fire Sessions because he won’t investigate Hillary? And put in anyone he chooses during summer session who won’t have to be ratified till 2019? And then fire Mueller?)

I have lost track of how many of the Trump team met with the Russians and were not forthcoming about it when they knew the Russians were meddling with the election. Jr. admitted he went to get dope on Hillary. Just because it was a scam and he didn’t get it is irrelevant. You have Trump’s own rally rhetoric as well. Obama told Trump they were meddling and then imposed sanctions on Russia which Trump as much as said he would be softer on them when he got in. They just need to get to the bottom of it. I heard Nancy Pelosi on TV trying to squash the use of the word "impeachment".

Don’t tell me he doesn’t, hasn’t had, or wants to have financial dealings with Russia. The whole conflict of interest just smells when he refuses to cooperate by releasing his financial affairs or putting them into a trust. I don’t understand how he gets away with this conflict of interest. He would not in Canada! This is one of the ways he is authoritarian and one of the ways he is not even trying to drain any swamp - he’s rolling around in it himself. No wonder he is being opposed.

Even though you have explained a lot to me I really really can’t understand how people can still be supporting him and claiming the media is lying. Those changes I asked you to make less nebulous must be pretty awesome to risk what is happening - Trump’s attacks on the American institutions and traditions that have been there for going on three hundred years are increasing in frequency and gravity and it is being called “democratic backsliding”.

And his tweeting to the AG to investigate his election opponent, telling the judiciary what to do, barely made the news yesterday because his attacks are so frequent and have become a norm.

Do you really want traditions from three hundred years ago to fall by the wayside to get those “micro-changes”, that you mention , whatever they are, to swing the pendulum back?

If all you explain to me is what those micro-changes are and if you want to risk losing all the institutions your country has built since its birth, that will satisfy my curiosity.




Until he extends the circle of his compassion to all living things, man will not himself find peace. Albert Schweitzer
Hope123
Posted: Wednesday, July 26, 2017 8:01:28 PM

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I was mistaken - I thought the vote yesterday was voting on a bill and we’d have an answer, but it was just to decide whether or not to keep on talking. Then they voted against repealing Obamacare without a replacement. They now have three days to come up with a new bill. Three whole days?

I guess I got mixed up because this bill has more sequels than “Godzilla”.

Until he extends the circle of his compassion to all living things, man will not himself find peace. Albert Schweitzer
progpen
Posted: Thursday, July 27, 2017 8:27:23 AM

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Hope123 wrote:
Also - If you would just stop saying "'Lefties' always". d'oh! Whistle Whistle


I've been a lefty all my life. Nuns at school tried to get me to write with the other (wrong) hand until my mom told them to stop.

Be kind but be fierce. You are needed now more than ever before. Take up the mantel of change. For this is your time.
Hope123
Posted: Thursday, July 27, 2017 10:40:41 AM

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progpen wrote:
Hope123 wrote:
Also - If you would just stop saying "'Lefties' always". d'oh! Whistle Whistle


I've been a lefty all my life. Nuns at school tried to get me to write with the other (wrong) hand until my mom told them to stop.


Good for your Mom. They finally determined that it is harmful to try to change people's handedness.

My husband was the only one in his family who is right-handed, so he learned to do some tasks left-handed and some right-handed depending upon who taught him as a kid. For instance he deals cards with his left hand but target shoots with his right (when he used to do that.)

I guess maybe the term was "Leftists" more often than "Lefties" but I couldn't resist.



Until he extends the circle of his compassion to all living things, man will not himself find peace. Albert Schweitzer
progpen
Posted: Thursday, July 27, 2017 10:06:03 PM

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As I learned woodworking, I taught myself to use all of the hand tools with either hand. That way when my arthritis kicks in I can switch over and continue working.

Be kind but be fierce. You are needed now more than ever before. Take up the mantel of change. For this is your time.
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