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What for the Creator Created us? Options
Y111
Posted: Sunday, July 02, 2017 6:58:47 AM
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jacobusmaximus wrote:

a Saviour would come into the world as the means by which humankind could overcome sin and death, the consequence of sin. That promise was to all 'who have ears to hear'. It is still being told today. Sadly, it is rejected by many.


The Saviour has come. However, Jesus is still the only one who has risen from the dead. People continued to die as they had before him. Even Christians. This is not so much of a change. There is only a promise that he will come again some day, nobody knows when. Why did it take him three days or so to rise but even 2000 years is not enough for people? This all looks very strange.
will
Posted: Sunday, July 02, 2017 5:11:04 PM
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TMe wrote:
We don't know the place where we came from neither we know where will we go to. What is the purpose of life?

The purpose is what the individual makes of it. Some choose to believe the purpose of life is to avoid death. My thoughts are similar to Epiphileon on this. My purpose is to survive day to day and improve, to the best of my ability, the existential reality of my family, friends, community and humanity in general in this life.

TMe wrote:
Majority (almost all) religious books and writings envision HIM as 'he'.

Hmm… I’m not sure how true that is. Historians have catalogued thousands (millions if we include some Hindu beliefs) of supernatural beings and deities recorded since the invention of writing by the Sumerians around 6000 years ago. A great many of those were female. Gods are made in humanity’s image and it’s true that we are currently largely experiencing dogma created in patriarchal societies, but historically god was just as likely a she.

jacobmaximus wrote:
I don't know when God created the world as we know it today, or humankind as we are now. But then scientific evidence doesn't know when homo sapiens first appeared. I mean 'at least 200,000 years' could be any figure above that - a billion years, two billion? It is one of the unknowns of science.

I guess as we’re talking about religion so you are not obliged to apply reason, but it’s worth pointing out that ‘It is one of the unknowns of science’ is a statement from pure ignorance, based on your inability to understand the difference between confidence based on evidence and your unquestioning religious beliefs in the absence of evidence.

We are not 100% certain about the theory of gravity, but that does not elevate (pun intended) any extraordinary claim to a position of equal status. Based on all the available evidence we are confident that homo sapiens evolved around 200,000 years ago. Having the integrity to acknowledge that this figure has a degree of uncertainty (give or take a few tens of thousands of years) does not validate absurd claims like ‘it could be billions of years’ or that a supernatural entity magicked itself into existence and breathed life into the dust of the ground, before tempting his creation into a world full of evil with a talking snake.

jacobmaximus wrote:
The message of the New Testament was foretold in the Old Testament which was shown to all humankind even before it was written. Ignorance of it does not cause death, but rejection of it does.

So an all powerful, all knowing, omnipresent Supreme Being with unlimited and infinite benevolence – the kindest, wisest, most loving parent you could imagine – conceived a system where His ‘children’ are gifted with logic and reason enough to improve the value, quality and duration of this earthly life,* for all humanity if we so choose, but are damned for using the same logic and reason to reject a particular divine message, and all other mutually exclusive divine messages, that are full of contradictions, intolerance and scientific absurdities; divine messages that are so ambiguous, contradictory and generally flawed that barely two faithful adherents can agree on a true meaning, ultimately to the extent of generations of sectarian violence.

* a quality of life far beyond the brutally short existence that was normal at the time that God chose to sacrifice Himself to Himself to save us from His own wrath.

This all powerful, all knowing, omnipresent Supreme Being with unlimited and infinite benevolence was apparently so unsure of the efficacy of his parenting and teaching skills that he built into his system an automatic pass for the vast majority of humanity who would inevitably remain ignorant of the route to salvation at their death through no fault of their own. According to this kindest, wisest, most loving system that an all powerful supreme being could conceive, it is better to chose wilful ignorance over knowledge, and it’s better to unknowingly be taught an ‘incorrect’ interpretation of scripture by a self serving patriarchy or by mentally deranged fanatics than it is to reject scripture on your own reasoning or humanistic values… in fact, if you want a place in heaven, according to this kind, wise and loving system, it is better to be one of the billions who die of curable diseases in the ignorance of infancy, or better for an entire village to be illiterate (through poverty or social and geographical isolation) at the point that it’s buried under a mudslide, or it’s better to be born with a mental disability... etc. etc.

This would be poor parenting by mere mortal standards. Eh?



.
Y111
Posted: Monday, July 03, 2017 3:20:47 AM
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will wrote:
an automatic pass for the vast majority of humanity who would inevitably remain ignorant of the route to salvation

I wonder how it will work if baptism is required for salvation. If it is, all the ignorant are lost.

As I understand it, baptism is birth into eternal life. That's why you get godparents when you are baptized. So, those who haven't been baptized remain mortal and will die forever with their body's death.

http://www.stgensrcc.com/Baptism.html

Holy Baptism is the basis of the whole Christian life, the gateway to life in the Spirit, and the door which gives access to the other sacraments. Through Baptism we are freed from sin and reborn as sons of God; we become members of Christ, are incorporated into the Church and made sharers in her mission: "Baptism is the sacrament of regeneration through water in the word.(CCC 1213)

Baptism is birth into the new life in Christ. In accordance with the Lord's will, it is necessary for salvation, as is the Church herself, which we enter by Baptism. (CCC 1277)

The essential rite of Baptism consists in immersing the candidate in water or pouring water on his head, while pronouncing the invocation of the Most Holy Trinity: the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. (CCC 1278)

The fruit of Baptism, or baptismal grace, is a rich reality that includes forgiveness of original sin and all personal sins, birth into the new life by which man becomes an adoptive son of the Father, a member of Christ and a temple of the Holy Spirit. By this very fact the person baptized is incorporated into the Church, the Body of Christ, and made a sharer in the priesthood of Christ. (CCC 1279)

Baptism imprints on the soul an indelible spiritual sign, the character, which consecrates the baptized person for Christian worship. Because of the character Baptism cannot be repeated. (CCC 1280)
Drag0nspeaker
Posted: Monday, July 03, 2017 5:05:32 AM

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Y111 wrote:
So, those who haven't been baptized remain mortal and will die forever with their body's death.

So, since the soul is immortal, your god decrees that a baby who dies so soon after birth that he/she is not baptised will burn forever in hell?
That's a loving, caring god - isn't it?


Wyrd bið ful aræd - bull!
Lotje1000
Posted: Monday, July 03, 2017 5:10:56 AM

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Drag0nspeaker wrote:
Y111 wrote:
So, those who haven't been baptized remain mortal and will die forever with their body's death.

So, since the soul is immortal, your god decrees that a baby who dies so soon after birth that he/she is not baptised will burn forever in hell?
That's a loving, caring god - isn't it?


If I remember correctly, that's why purgatory was invented. After x time in purgatory, those babies can then go to heaven.
Drag0nspeaker
Posted: Monday, July 03, 2017 5:26:34 AM

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Oh - that's all right then.

They're only tortured for a fraction of infinity. d'oh!

Wyrd bið ful aræd - bull!
Y111
Posted: Monday, July 03, 2017 5:42:36 AM
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Drag0nspeaker wrote:

So, since the soul is immortal, your god decrees that a baby who dies so soon after birth that he/she is not baptised will burn forever in hell?

No, my understanding was that such souls die with their bodies. Die means cease to be. That would be logical, wouldn't it? If the soul is immortal no matter what, then where is death? What is meant by this word then?
Lotje1000
Posted: Monday, July 03, 2017 5:50:43 AM

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Drag0nspeaker wrote:
Oh - that's all right then.

They're only tortured for a fraction of infinity. d'oh!


Possibly for longer than they were alive before their unbaptised death! I don't know the logistic details.
Drag0nspeaker
Posted: Monday, July 03, 2017 8:11:35 AM

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Y111 wrote:
No, my understanding was that such souls die with their bodies. Die means cease to be. That would be logical, wouldn't it? If the soul is immortal no matter what, then where is death? What is meant by this word then?

Which religion are you talking about? From your post about "Jesus is the only saviour" and so on, I assumed you were talking about Christianity.

According to the Christian churches, you have a body. That's mortal and it dies.
You are a spirit (a soul) - this is immortal, you leave your body when it dies.
Then, at the whim of the Christian god, that spirit either goes to Heaven or goes to Hell and is tortured infinitely for an infinite amount of time.

I can't see a compassionate father condemning a child to infinite torture just for refusing to bow down and worship his father, when the father's only contact with the child since birth has been cryptic notes written by someone else saying "I wrote this because I heard your father in a dream" . . . the punishment seems a little . . . er . . . out of proportion.

Wyrd bið ful aræd - bull!
Y111
Posted: Monday, July 03, 2017 9:05:26 AM
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Drag0nspeaker wrote:

Which religion are you talking about? From your post about "Jesus is the only saviour" and so on, I assumed you were talking about Christianity.

Yes, I was talking about Christianity. Only I had missed or forgotten that every soul is immortal. I thought immortality was gained through baptism. My bad. I am not a believer myself, just trying to find the logic behind religious beliefs.
Drag0nspeaker
Posted: Monday, July 03, 2017 10:58:36 AM

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Y111 wrote:
I am not a believer myself, just trying to find the logic behind religious beliefs.

In that case, though your posts are welcome, you will not really learn well in a forum.
You will see opposing and contradictory ideas, and quite likely become confused.

To learn about Christian beliefs, you would be better choosing ONE Christian website and reading their information. I'm afraid that I can't advise which is the best place to learn.
You need a site which will give the simple 'core' ideas. Maybe one of the Christian members will help (If Jacobumaximus or FounDit are looking in, they could probably point you in the right direction).

When you've read the basics, then I'm sure you will have more questions, which will encourage discussion here!

*******************
Looking for the logic behind religion is not really a quest which will give you much success, I feel.

Even one of the most profound teachers and Christian philosophers, St Thomas Aquinas, separated information into three sections
- Rational law (logic, what you work out to be good for society and people in general),
- Natural law (physics and instinct for personal survival) and
- God's law.

These three are separate subjects - God's law does not include logic or rationality.

Wyrd bið ful aræd - bull!
Y111
Posted: Monday, July 03, 2017 11:55:49 AM
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Drag0nspeaker wrote:

In that case, though your posts are welcome, you will not really learn well in a forum.
You will see opposing and contradictory ideas, and quite likely become confused.

That's not a problem. I am not looking for the road to paradise, after all, just playing with some ideas that come to mind, for the fun of it. It's also more interesting to me what real people, believers and unbelievers, have to say on the matter than what is written in theological books.

However, what you say is reasonable, thank you for your advice.
will
Posted: Tuesday, July 04, 2017 5:27:27 PM
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Y111 wrote:
So, those who haven't been baptized remain mortal and will die forever with their body's death.

Drag0nspeaker wrote:
So, since the soul is immortal, your god decrees that a baby who dies so soon after birth that he/she is not baptised will burn forever in hell?
That's a loving, caring god - isn't it?


Lotje1000 wrote:
If I remember correctly, that's why purgatory was invented. After x time in purgatory, those babies can then go to heaven.


It’s almost as if it’s all made up on the hoof… Think


.
tunaafi
Posted: Wednesday, July 05, 2017 4:47:49 AM

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Perish the thought!
Hope123
Posted: Wednesday, July 05, 2017 9:57:07 PM

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"Made up on the hoof?" No, no, Will. Check out the Christmas story. It either came to them in a dream or an angel told them.

A smile is a curve that sets everything straight. Phyllis Diller
Absinthius
Posted: Thursday, July 06, 2017 7:07:23 AM

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Weren't there a whole bunch of hoofed creations present during His (or his, not sure whether a reference to the smaller version of the big guy also needs to be capitalized) birth?

Look, how about this? Let's pretend we've had the row and I've won. See? It saves a lot of effort.
will
Posted: Thursday, July 06, 2017 12:30:15 PM
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Absinthius wrote:
Weren't there a whole bunch of hoofed creations present during His (or his, not sure whether a reference to the smaller version of the big guy also needs to be capitalized) birth?


The Bible loves it's hoof creations...

God brought them out of Egypt; he hath as it were the strength of an unicorn. – Numbers 23:22

God brought him forth out of Egypt; he hath as it were the strength of an unicorn: he shall eat up the nations his enemies, and shall break their bones, and pierce them through with his arrows. – Numbers 24:8

And the unicorns shall come down with them, and the bullocks with the bulls; and their land shall be soaked with blood, and their dust made fat with fatness. – Isaiah 34:7

Will the unicorn be willing to serve thee, or abide by thy crib? – Job 39:9

Canst thou bind the unicorn with his band in the furrow? or will he harrow the valleys after thee? – Job 39:10

His glory is like the firstling of his bullock, and his horns are like the horns of unicorns: with them he shall push the people together to the ends of the earth: and they are the ten thousands of Ephraim, and they are the thousands of Manasseh. Deuteronomy 33:17

Save me from the lion's mouth: for thou hast heard me from the horns of the unicorns. – Psalm 22:21

But my horn shalt thou exalt like the horn of an unicorn: I shall be anointed with fresh oil. – Psalm 92:10

He maketh them also to skip like a calf; Lebanon and Sirion like a young unicorn. – Psalm 29:6



To be fair, not being fluent in the ancient Hebrew language that God chose to reveal Himself to all mankind in, I’m relying on my Faith that unicorn actually means unicorn (as befitting of my spiritual personality). Other interpretations explain this apparent ambiguity in the infallible word of God as anything from the rhinoceros (boring) to triceratops that absolutely existed concurrently with man.



.
Drag0nspeaker
Posted: Thursday, July 06, 2017 1:03:32 PM

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Wyrd bið ful aræd - bull!
will
Posted: Thursday, July 06, 2017 5:31:59 PM
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Well, I stand corrected. You can't deny photographic evidence, dinosaurs did exist alongside man...


.
Drag0nspeaker
Posted: Friday, July 07, 2017 10:50:21 AM

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Well, to be exact, dinosaurs existed alongside Steven Spielberg . . .

Wyrd bið ful aræd - bull!
Y111
Posted: Friday, July 07, 2017 11:17:10 AM
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Since God is omnipotent, he can change the past as easily as the present. Maybe he has done so many times. In some of the pasts, dinosaurs may well have existed alongside man.

He may even have several worlds running in parallel, sometimes splitting one world into two and other times merging two worlds into one. In the latter case the new world will have two pasts, in one of which dinosaurs lived alongside man and in the other they didn't.
leonAzul
Posted: Friday, July 07, 2017 9:58:03 PM

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TMe wrote:
What is the purpose of life?


To find joy and to share it.

"Make it go away, Mrs Whatsit," he whispered. "Make it go away. It's evil."
jacobusmaximus
Posted: Saturday, July 08, 2017 2:10:20 AM

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leonAzul wrote:
TMe wrote:
What is the purpose of life?


To find joy and to share it.


A breath of fresh air, leon. Thank you.

I remember, therefore I am.
Hope123
Posted: Saturday, July 08, 2017 11:30:20 AM

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Y111 wrote:
Since God is omnipotent, he can change the past as easily as the present. Maybe he has done so many times. In some of the pasts, dinosaurs may well have existed alongside man.

He may even have several worlds running in parallel, sometimes splitting one world into two and other times merging two worlds into one. In the latter case the new world will have two pasts, in one of which dinosaurs lived alongside man and in the other they didn't.


If He can change the past, I have a couple of things I'd like to change. How do I get Him to do that?




A smile is a curve that sets everything straight. Phyllis Diller
Hope123
Posted: Saturday, July 08, 2017 11:30:46 AM

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leonAzul wrote:
TMe wrote:
What is the purpose of life?


To find joy and to share it.


Precisely, Leon!

A smile is a curve that sets everything straight. Phyllis Diller
Y111
Posted: Saturday, July 08, 2017 12:09:24 PM
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Hope123 wrote:

If He can change the past, I have a couple of things I'd like to change. How do I get Him to do that?

Hmm... I have no idea. But he is also said to be omnipresent, so you can ask him about it. Only I am afraid he is unlikely to answer. Otherwise, instead of four gospels, we would have one, proofread by God himself, and one Church.
Hope123
Posted: Saturday, July 08, 2017 2:00:17 PM

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Y111 wrote:
Hope123 wrote:

If He can change the past, I have a couple of things I'd like to change. How do I get Him to do that?

...so you can ask him about it. Only I am afraid he is unlikely to answer.


Precisely.

A smile is a curve that sets everything straight. Phyllis Diller
jacobusmaximus
Posted: Sunday, July 09, 2017 3:49:07 AM

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Y111 wrote:
Hope123 wrote:

If He can change the past, I have a couple of things I'd like to change. How do I get Him to do that?

Hmm... I have no idea. But he is also said to be omnipresent, so you can ask him about it. Only I am afraid he is unlikely to answer. Otherwise, instead of four gospels, we would have one, proofread by God himself, and one Church.


There is only one Gospel. It is the Good News that Christ died and rose again. It is reported by four different individuals who saw things in different ways.

There is only one Church. It is the Company of Believers wherever they may be and of whatever denomination.

That's democracy and inclusiveness from a time long before the words were ever spoken by humankind.


I remember, therefore I am.
Priscilla86
Posted: Monday, July 10, 2017 5:08:46 AM

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leonAzul wrote:
TMe wrote:
What is the purpose of life?


To find joy and to share it.


I'd like to get a mirror image of this tattooed on my chest.

The greatest thing you'll ever learn is just to love and be loved in return.
jacobusmaximus
Posted: Monday, July 10, 2017 2:09:39 PM

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Priscilla86 wrote:
leonAzul wrote:
TMe wrote:
What is the purpose of life?


To find joy and to share it.


I'd like to get a mirror image of this tattooed on my chest.


But few people would see it, I imagine! Keep it in your heart and many will see it in your caring attitude.

I remember, therefore I am.
TMe
Posted: Tuesday, July 11, 2017 11:45:01 AM

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My inquisitiveness gets sidelined.

I wanted to know why the creator sent us to this life without assigning us any duty in clear terms.

Most of my friends have explained the purpose, as explained in religious books.

None has explained, as I wanted knowledge about a step before birth. The deep meaning of
'Software' installed by the creator in the brains of not only Homo sapiens, but all living beings of this planet at least.

Creator planned what? Sends one creature, calls back another.

Sends everybody, may be H.Sapiens, birds, aquatic animals, bacteria, plants with instruction to leave progeny behind. And HE leaves nothing to chance.

For need of one sperm, millions are produced. Certain seed are produced with wings (pine) to go to far off places to produce new plants (progeny) without failing safely, saves fetus in the womb in a fail-proof and an immaculate style. Frogs inseminate thousands of cells of fem-froggy but only few succeed.

And on top are hermaphrodites, carrying no-holds-barred for producing.Think Think d'oh! d'oh! Dancing Dancing Dancing Brick wall Brick wall Brick wall

WHY, why, why and why?

(Errors accepted)


I am a layman.
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