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FounDit
Posted: Tuesday, July 18, 2017 11:45:21 AM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 9/19/2011
Posts: 8,158
Neurons: 43,559
Hope123 wrote:
In Landmark Move, GOP Congress Calls Climate Change ‘Direct Threat’ to Security


“Foreign Policy” article.

“One study last year found that rising oceans threaten 128 (USA) military installations on the coasts, including naval facilities worth around $100 billion.”
One study? By whom? and what military installations are threatened now? Or is this for some time in the future with a "might/maybe/perhaps/could/possibly"? And even if the Earth is one degree warmer, no evidence is presented here that says humans are responsible for it, or can do anything about it. And besides that, more people die each year from cold than from heat.

The study is by the Union of Concerned Scientists of the USA. I did not see the study but found their website.
Ah, yes. Union of Concerned Scientists with the sub-head of "Science for a healthy planet and safer world". That's an unbiased site to be sure...uh, huh.

Union of Concerned Scientists

Filled with assertions, but no evidence to show we are responsible for any of it. But when you have faith, evidence isn't necessary. Believe, brothers and sisters! And paradise can be yours! Get your subsidized windmills and solar panels today! Because if the subsidies run out, so do the windmills and solar panels because they aren't sustainable.

You continue to push it, and I continue to mock it. Fun, huh?




A great many people will think they are thinking when they are merely rearranging their prejudices. ~ William James ~
Hope123
Posted: Tuesday, July 18, 2017 12:39:44 PM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 3/23/2015
Posts: 6,388
Neurons: 37,857
Location: Burlington, Ontario, Canada
FounDit wrote:
Hope123 wrote:
In Landmark Move, GOP Congress Calls Climate Change ‘Direct Threat’ to Security


“Foreign Policy” article.

“One study last year found that rising oceans threaten 128 (USA) military installations on the coasts, including naval facilities worth around $100 billion.”
One study? By whom? and what military installations are threatened now? Or is this for some time in the future with a "might/maybe/perhaps/could/possibly"? And even if the Earth is one degree warmer, no evidence is presented here that says humans are responsible for it, or can do anything about it. And besides that, more people die each year from cold than from heat.

The study is by the Union of Concerned Scientists of the USA. I did not see the study but found their website.
Ah, yes. Union of Concerned Scientists with the sub-head of "Science for a healthy planet and safer world". That's an unbiased site to be sure...uh, huh.

Union of Concerned Scientists

Filled with assertions, but no evidence to show we are responsible for any of it. But when you have faith, evidence isn't necessary. Believe, brothers and sisters! And paradise can be yours! Get your subsidized windmills and solar panels today! Because if the subsidies run out, so do the windmills and solar panels because they aren't sustainable.

You continue to push it, and I continue to mock it. Fun, huh?




Not my problem. Your opinion, your military bases that are jeopardy, and your congress disagrees with you. So mock all you want. It doesn't change the pragmatic facts. Island inundation is not future - it is already happening. Only in America are weather predictions from a rodent accepted, but climate change evidence from scientists is denied. Whistle

Plus my biased sites are better than your biased sites Whistle Whistle Whistle (as they are written by scientists with good reputations.) Too funny.

Ignorance, allied with power, is the most ferocious enemy justice can have. -James Baldwin, writer
almo 1
Posted: Tuesday, July 18, 2017 10:28:16 PM
Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 10/16/2016
Posts: 684
Neurons: 3,032
Location: Fussa, Tokyo, Japan





Pictures are gone.Boo hoo!



forum.thefreedictionary.com/










Drag0nspeaker
Posted: Wednesday, July 19, 2017 1:33:52 AM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 9/12/2011
Posts: 26,451
Neurons: 141,825
Location: Livingston, Scotland, United Kingdom

RE: PHOTOS

Meanwhile, in Freedelfia . . .



Wyrd bið ful aræd - bull!
Lotje1000
Posted: Wednesday, July 19, 2017 2:38:31 AM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 11/3/2014
Posts: 828
Neurons: 360,033
Location: Gent, Flanders, Belgium
FounDit wrote:
And besides that, more people die each year from cold than from heat.

[...]

Fun, huh?


Oh, FounDit, you do make me laugh. Honestly, I haven't laughed this hard since Jim Inhofe brought a snowball as proof against climate change.

Unless, of course, I'm misunderstanding your argument there. Or were you just trying to bring the victims of climate change to our attention?
Hope123
Posted: Wednesday, July 19, 2017 9:50:37 AM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 3/23/2015
Posts: 6,388
Neurons: 37,857
Location: Burlington, Ontario, Canada
Thanks, Drago. I guess it makes sense to pay for the services you use.

I'll check out your site.

Edited - here's what Photobucket says: "Corpus noted that seventy-five percent of Photobucket’s costs originate from non-paying users leveraging 3rd party hosting. The majority of the industry has either eliminated 3rd party hosting or imposed variable pricing based on consumption."

I'd be interested to learn how that costs them money.

I don't suppose TFD would make adjustments to how they operate.

Edited - I checked out their plans - $39.99 a month to post a few pix on TFD. I don't think so.



Ignorance, allied with power, is the most ferocious enemy justice can have. -James Baldwin, writer
FounDit
Posted: Wednesday, July 19, 2017 11:47:59 AM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 9/19/2011
Posts: 8,158
Neurons: 43,559
Lotje1000 wrote:
FounDit wrote:
And besides that, more people die each year from cold than from heat.

[...]

Fun, huh?


Oh, FounDit, you do make me laugh. Honestly, I haven't laughed this hard since Jim Inhofe brought a snowball as proof against climate change.

Unless, of course, I'm misunderstanding your argument there. Or were you just trying to bring the victims of climate change to our attention?


The study — published in the British journal The Lancet — analyzed data on more than 74 million deaths in 13 countries between 1985 and 2012. Of those, 5.4 million deaths were related to cold, while 311,000 were related to heat. [Emphasis FD]

Well, I don't know about The Lancet. Maybe they are a right-wing climate-denying rag. But I've heard the same facts reported as far back as the 1980's, so it seems like a legitimate fact to me. But why let facts get in the way of a good political narrative, huh?

https://www.usatoday.com/story/weather/2015/05/20/cold-weather-deaths/27657269/


A great many people will think they are thinking when they are merely rearranging their prejudices. ~ William James ~
Hope123
Posted: Wednesday, July 19, 2017 4:58:40 PM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 3/23/2015
Posts: 6,388
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Location: Burlington, Ontario, Canada
“The Lancet” is a well respected world medical news source. It is not the accuracy of the statement that is questioned but the implication made by it. “The Lancet” has written several articles about climate change and its effects on human health.

The statement “more die of cold than heat” shows a basic misconception of what climate change is. It is not just weather or even global warming.

It is extreme weather that is increasing in number and intensity that varies in different parts of the world and disrupts human activity and lives because the temperature of the earth is increasing, more so in some areas than in others. I posted a map showing the areas before - no longer able to post photos till I sort it out.

More people are dying of ALL weather-related causes. Cardiovascular and respiratory problems from pollution, heat, cold, storms of various kinds, floods and drowning, communicable diseases spread, viruses and bacteria become more virulent and move to become active in other geographies, insects multiply and move and carry diseases, floods contaminate water and leave breeding grounds for mosquitoes, floods damage homes and medical supplies, food production is hindered by floods and drought - there’s diarrhea and malnutrition etc. We have ticks and the West Nile Virus now in Ontario. FL has the Zika virus to name a few. Other diseases and pests are gradually changing locations all over the world.

The World Health Organization: “Measuring the health effects from climate change can only be very approximate. Nevertheless, a WHO assessment, taking into account only a subset of the possible health impacts, and assuming continued economic growth and health progress, concluded that climate change is expected to cause approximately 250 000 additional deaths per year between 2030 and 2050; 38 000 due to heat exposure in elderly people, 48 000 due to diarrhoea, 60 000 due to malaria, and 95 000 due to childhood undernutrition.”

Please note these are additional and unnecessary deaths - per year.

https://newrepublic.com/article/121032/map-climate-change-kills-more-people-worldwide-terrorism

Twenty governments commissioned an independent report in 2012 from the group DARA International to study the human and economic costs of climate change…When the report looked at the added health consequences from burning fossil fuels—aside from climate change—the number of deaths jumps from 400,000 to almost 5 million per year…The ultimate irony of Republicans brushing off the impact of climate change: Drought and extreme weather can destabilize developing regions, making climate change one of the factors that drives terrorism.”

Climate change kills many many more people than terrorism, yet people are more afraid of being killed by a terrorist.

Please note - These are today’s numbers. Future projections are for even greater numbers.

“New Republic” is a left-leaning magazine published since 1914. It has a reputation for High Factual Reporting.



Ignorance, allied with power, is the most ferocious enemy justice can have. -James Baldwin, writer
almo 1
Posted: Wednesday, July 19, 2017 6:36:56 PM
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progpen
Posted: Wednesday, July 19, 2017 8:16:53 PM

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Location: Princeton, Minnesota, United States
FounDit wrote:
The study — published in the British journal The Lancet — analyzed data on more than 74 million deaths in 13 countries between 1985 and 2012. Of those, 5.4 million deaths were related to cold, while 311,000 were related to heat.


Wow, that sounds...well, like a whole lotta nothing. Well, it makes almost as much sense as these:
http://www.tylervigen.com/spurious-correlations

I particularly like the correlation between the number of letters in the winning word of the Scripps National Spelling Bee and the number of people killed by venomous spiders.

Oh and how the age of Miss America correlates to the number of murders by steam, hot vapors and hot objects.

Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter. ― Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.
Lotje1000
Posted: Thursday, July 20, 2017 3:47:17 AM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 11/3/2014
Posts: 828
Neurons: 360,033
Location: Gent, Flanders, Belgium
FounDit wrote:
Lotje1000 wrote:
FounDit wrote:
And besides that, more people die each year from cold than from heat.

[...]

Fun, huh?


Oh, FounDit, you do make me laugh. Honestly, I haven't laughed this hard since Jim Inhofe brought a snowball as proof against climate change.

Unless, of course, I'm misunderstanding your argument there. Or were you just trying to bring the victims of climate change to our attention?


The study — published in the British journal The Lancet — analyzed data on more than 74 million deaths in 13 countries between 1985 and 2012. Of those, 5.4 million deaths were related to cold, while 311,000 were related to heat. [Emphasis FD]

Well, I don't know about The Lancet. Maybe they are a right-wing climate-denying rag. But I've heard the same facts reported as far back as the 1980's, so it seems like a legitimate fact to me. But why let facts get in the way of a good political narrative, huh?

https://www.usatoday.com/story/weather/2015/05/20/cold-weather-deaths/27657269/


You've got me wrong, FounDit. What you mention there does not get in the way of a good political narrative. It supports the narrative Hope and Progpen and others are arguing here. Yes, people die of cold. Climate change causes more extreme weather, including cold weather. Therefore climate change will kill a lot of people.

However, you oppose their point of view, so I was wondering what your aim was at pointing out that people die of extreme weather and how this in any way was an objection to what Hope was saying about the effects of climate change.
FounDit
Posted: Thursday, July 20, 2017 11:00:29 AM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 9/19/2011
Posts: 8,158
Neurons: 43,559
Lotje1000 wrote:


You've got me wrong, FounDit. What you mention there does not get in the way of a good political narrative. It supports the narrative Hope and Progpen and others are arguing here. Yes, people die of cold. Climate change causes more extreme weather, including cold weather. Therefore climate change will kill a lot of people.

However, you oppose their point of view, so I was wondering what your aim was at pointing out that people die of extreme weather and how this in any way was an objection to what Hope was saying about the effects of climate change.


The whole point is that a temperature rise of 1° C isn't necessarily a bad thing. Cold is worse than heat in so far as it relates to human death. Hope, progpen, and apparently you also, appear to believe the idea (propaganda IMO) that humans are causing that temperature rise and that it will continue unabated until the planet is irreversibly damaged, or is uninhabitable, if not stopped. I have seen no evidence this is true (it is a purely imagined fear), and until someone can show me such evidence, I continue to be skeptical of it. I believe our continuing advancements in technology will take care of any current problems, and will derail any such doomsday scenarios.


A great many people will think they are thinking when they are merely rearranging their prejudices. ~ William James ~
will
Posted: Thursday, July 20, 2017 3:44:14 PM
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Joined: 6/29/2009
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I think FounDit has a point. More people die on land than at sea, so rising sea levels can only be a benefit to mankind. Think



.
Hope123
Posted: Thursday, July 20, 2017 6:09:43 PM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 3/23/2015
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Location: Burlington, Ontario, Canada
A valid and sound argument that humans have their finger in the pie of climate change:

Premise one - CO2 keeps the Earth warmer than it would be without it. ✅

Premise two - Humans are adding CO2 to the atmosphere, mainly by burning fossil fuels. ✅ CO2 has increased by nearly 43% in the last 150 years. Proof that rising carbon dioxide levels are due to human activity comes from (comparing previous and) analysing the types of carbon found now in the air as the carbon atom has several different isotopes.

Premise three - Earth temperatures have risen faster than ever before in natural cycles. ✅ It has taken the planet about 5,000 years to warm 5 degrees. The rate of change happening now is extremely unusual - almost a degree C in 140 years. Even if no more CO2 is added the temperature will still rise .5 to 1 degree C.

Premise four - science has shown empirical evidence that the rising temperatures are being caused by the increased CO2. ✅ CO2 traps energy at very specific wavelengths, while other greenhouse gases trap different wavelengths. In physics, these wavelengths can be measured using a technique called spectroscopy. Energy being trapped in the atmosphere corresponds exactly to the wavelengths of energy captured by CO2.

Conclusion - human activity is causing most of the rising temperatures. ✅ ✅ ✅

:::::


FounDit wrote : “The whole point is that a temperature rise of 1° C isn't necessarily a bad thing.”


! ! !

We're not talking about weather here. We're talking about how plants grow and the yields we get - and so many other things already mentioned.

FounDit wrote: “I believe our continuing advancements in technology will take care of any current problems, and will derail any such doomsday scenarios.”

Exactly why climate change believers are pushing innovation and change!

https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2017/01/tech-innovations-save-us-from-climate-change/

https://www.gatesnotes.com/Energy/Breakthrough-Energy-Ventures




Ignorance, allied with power, is the most ferocious enemy justice can have. -James Baldwin, writer
progpen
Posted: Thursday, July 20, 2017 6:35:20 PM

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Location: Princeton, Minnesota, United States
It's easier to follow incorrect information that backs up what you personally want to be true (we aren't causing any problems with climate, and we can wait for the same scientists that we despise to fix the problems that don't exist).

Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter. ― Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.
FounDit
Posted: Thursday, July 20, 2017 8:37:31 PM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 9/19/2011
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Neurons: 43,559
Hope123 wrote:
A valid and sound argument that humans have their finger in the pie of climate change:

Premise one - CO2 keeps the Earth warmer than it would be without it. ✅
So does the sun. A statement that bears no relevance to humans being the cause.

Premise two - Humans are adding CO2 to the atmosphere, mainly by burning fossil fuels. ✅
Yes, humans add CO2 to the atmosphere this way, but humans are not the only source and simply being "A" source does not mean we are responsible for any temperature increase.

CO2 has increased by nearly 43% in the last 150 years. Proof that rising carbon dioxide levels are due to human activity comes from (comparing previous and) analysing the types of carbon found now in the air as the carbon atom has several different isotopes.
You have "proved" no such thing because there are many sources of CO2. What you would have to do is prove how much each source contributes. And when you can prove humans are responsible for the majority, and that it will never end, then we'll talk.

Premise three - Earth temperatures have risen faster than ever before in natural cycles. ✅
Evidence, please, not simple assertions.

It has taken the planet about 5,000 years to warm 5 degrees.
Is this our fault, too, or a natural cycle? And how would you know?

The rate of change happening now is extremely unusual - almost a degree C in 140 years. Even if no more CO2 is added the temperature will still rise .5 to 1 degree C.
Horrors! 1° you say! How will we survive! Assuming, of course, that the plants and oceans stop absorbing CO2, and volcanoes stop erupting, and cows stop farting, and everything stays exactly the same, and...

Premise four - science has shown empirical evidence that the rising temperatures are being caused by the increased CO2. ✅
Yep. And the sun makes the Earth warm, and rain makes it wet, and winter makes it cold. Nothing here about humans making it warmer.

CO2 traps energy at very specific wavelengths, while other greenhouse gases trap different wavelengths. In physics, these wavelengths can be measured using a technique called spectroscopy. Energy being trapped in the atmosphere corresponds exactly to the wavelengths of energy captured by CO2.
Ho, hum.

Conclusion - human activity is causing most of the rising temperatures. ✅ ✅ ✅
Faulty conclusion, based on unproven, invalid premises.

:::::


FounDit wrote : “The whole point is that a temperature rise of 1° C isn't necessarily a bad thing.”


! ! !

We're not talking about weather here. We're talking about how plants grow and the yields we get - and so many other things already mentioned.
But if we were, we'd find plants increase their growth and increase their production, yielding more food and fiber for a world that needs it.

FounDit wrote: “I believe our continuing advancements in technology will take care of any current problems, and will derail any such doomsday scenarios.”

Exactly why climate change believers are pushing innovation and change!

https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2017/01/tech-innovations-save-us-from-climate-change/

https://www.gatesnotes.com/Energy/Breakthrough-Energy-Ventures
And finally we agree. There is no need for things like the Paris Accords. Let people like Bill Gates and other rich folks invest in new technology. Don't restrict current energy production here with needless regulations from government. We've been doing our part. If you want to restrict CO2, go to China and demonstrate in the streets, demanding they stop building new coal plants nearly every week, please. And let us know how that works out.




A great many people will think they are thinking when they are merely rearranging their prejudices. ~ William James ~
Hope123
Posted: Friday, July 21, 2017 12:03:36 AM

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Exactly, Progpen!

FD, I gave you a short simple basic bare bones OUTLINE in the form of an argument of the steps in science with each individual premise being correct on its own so that ONE BY ONE TAKEN IN CONCERT they lead to the conclusion of scientists as noted.

Premise one was laying out the scenario that the greenhouse gases including CO2 in the ATMOSPHERE are acting like a blanket by preventing some of the sun’s energy from being RE-RADIATED into space which is what keeps the earth at a livable warm temperature. The amount of energy arriving from the sun has not changed much, but there is a gradual decrease in the amount of energy being re-radiated back into space. (Don’t be impatient and expect the conclusion here - it comes at the end.)

They can and do track the different kinds of CO2 and have proved that the majority comes from human activity. Whether or not that changes depends upon what we do now. So I’m talking - are you listening? Or just putting in your ear plugs and saying “Ho hum” again to science?

“Confirmation that rising carbon dioxide levels are due to human activity comes from analyzing the types of carbon found in the air. The carbon atom has several different isotopes (eg - different number of neutrons). Carbon 12 has 6 neutrons, carbon 13 has 7 neutrons. Plants have a lower C13/C12 ratio than in the atmosphere. If rising atmospheric CO2 comes from fossil fuels, the C13/C12 should be falling. Indeed this is what is occuring (Ghosh 2003) and the trend correlates with the trend in global emissions. Further confirmation comes by measuring oxygen levels in the atmosphere. When fossil fuels are burned, the carbon in the fossil fuels are joined to oxygen, creating carbon dioxide. As CO2 increases in the atmosphere, oxygen decreases. Observations show oxygen levels are falling at a rate consistent with the burning of fossil fuels.”Using satellites to measure and then the analysis of high resolution spectral data allowed scientists to quantitatively attribute the increase in downward radiation to each of several greenhouse gases (Evans 2006).” And CO2 was shown to be the culprit as CO2 traps energy at very specific wavelengths, while other greenhouse gases trap different wavelengths. In physics, these wavelengths can be measured using a technique called spectroscopy. Energy being trapped in the atmosphere corresponds exactly to the wavelengths of energy captured by CO2. [color=blue]Ho, hum.

And the science with the proofs and charts putting every variable of the earth's dynamics into the equations goes on and on, often only understood by other climate scientists.

Premise three re temperatures - I don’t just pull numbers out of the air. The 5000 year figure was from tests they performed from previous natural cycles. I followed my assertion with proof that there has been a drastic difference in timing from natural cycles, and you just made fun of a 1 degree rise. Maybe you should do some research on the effects of one teeny degree rise in the whole earth’s temperature.


BTW - You are wrong about plants just growing better as there are many factors that affect them - “The study found that, if the patterns from 2002 to 2008 hold in the future, an increase in average temperature in Mato Grosso of just 1 degree Celsius will lead to a nine to 13 percent reduction in overall production of soy and corn.” phys.org

Also, you need an update - not only is India cancelling many coal plants, so is China.

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/01/18/world/asia/china-coal-power-plants-pollution.html

What we want is not just rich guys but to encourage young smart entrepreneurs to create innovations and thus drive the economy in new ways. Life changes and those people and civilizations who learn to adapt are the ones that survive. And when people and countries co-operate, the achievements are far greater.


How exactly are "you doing your part"?


Ignorance, allied with power, is the most ferocious enemy justice can have. -James Baldwin, writer
Lotje1000
Posted: Friday, July 21, 2017 4:49:22 AM

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Location: Gent, Flanders, Belgium
FounDit wrote:
The whole point is that a temperature rise of 1° C isn't necessarily a bad thing. Cold is worse than heat in so far as it relates to human death.


You seem to be missing the point that climate change causes unpredictable and harsher weather, which includes cold winters, as a result of the disruption of currents and other weather patterns.

FounDit wrote:
I have seen no evidence this is true (it is a purely imagined fear), and until someone can show me such evidence, I continue to be skeptical of it. I believe our continuing advancements in technology will take care of any current problems, and will derail any such doomsday scenarios.


You believe science is going to derail any doomsday scenarios which, according to you, aren't even coming. How exactly is science going to do that, if there's apparently no threat? People need to take climate change seriously in order to pursue the climate or environmental technology that you feel will save us (from this apparently non-existent doomsday). Solutions don't just spontaneously pop out of the air.
FounDit
Posted: Friday, July 21, 2017 8:53:49 AM

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Lotje1000 wrote:
FounDit wrote:
The whole point is that a temperature rise of 1° C isn't necessarily a bad thing. Cold is worse than heat in so far as it relates to human death.


You seem to be missing the point that climate change causes unpredictable and harsher weather, which includes cold winters, as a result of the disruption of currents and other weather patterns.
No, the point is whether or not we can, and do, change the weather. I say we can't, and therefore there is no anthropogenic climate change. And no one can predict the future, in weather or anything else.

FounDit wrote:
I have seen no evidence this is true (it is a purely imagined fear), and until someone can show me such evidence, I continue to be skeptical of it. I believe our continuing advancements in technology will take care of any current problems, and will derail any such doomsday scenarios.


You believe science is going to derail any doomsday scenarios which, according to you, aren't even coming. How exactly is science going to do that, if there's apparently no threat? People need to take climate change seriously in order to pursue the climate or environmental technology that you feel will save us (from this apparently non-existent doomsday). Solutions don't just spontaneously pop out of the air.
No, again. It is your group that believes there is a doomsday coming. I believe advances in technology will alter the future and therefore the imagined doomsday you all predict will not occur.





A great many people will think they are thinking when they are merely rearranging their prejudices. ~ William James ~
almo 1
Posted: Friday, July 21, 2017 10:02:01 AM
Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 10/16/2016
Posts: 684
Neurons: 3,032
Location: Fussa, Tokyo, Japan


Meanwhile in Gethen










Hope123
Posted: Friday, July 21, 2017 10:03:20 AM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 3/23/2015
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No we don't believe there is a doomsday coming, FD. That is your misconception. We believe there are foreword-thinking intelligent young people who get educations, learn how to think and reason, believe what experts in science tell them, accept reality, become scientists and entrepreneurs, and advance technology. We believe that humankind is not stupid and will figure this out through putting their heads together. We don't even mind dragging the skeptics along, even if they are kicking and screaming until they reap the benefits of such an approach.

There are other options besides sticking one's head in the sand or sitting there screaming the sky is the falling. Those options are to get off our butts and do something about it - and that something has been proven in other countries to not be such a hard choice and even benefits economies.

We see that sensible governments such as China and India see the reality - that green energy is far cheaper than coal, and even though it is now their turn to develop, are being pragmatic and entrepreneurial creating companies that are supplying that green energy. The USA is being left in the dust.

We see places such as Southern Ontario that is now completely free of coal burning plants and thus free of smog days.

And with American travel bans and the atmosphere (in more ways than one there), the young are already going to other countries to get that education and with countries such as Canada pouring money into encouraging the young to stay and open those businesses here, it will even improve our economy. University foreign student registration is way up already pouring money into our educational systems and Silicon Valley young are moving here. Does Fox News not tell "the American people of the heartland" that?

Ignorance, allied with power, is the most ferocious enemy justice can have. -James Baldwin, writer
Hope123
Posted: Friday, July 21, 2017 10:04:20 AM

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Location: Burlington, Ontario, Canada
Almo, what photo service are you using? Do you pay for it?

Ignorance, allied with power, is the most ferocious enemy justice can have. -James Baldwin, writer
almo 1
Posted: Friday, July 21, 2017 10:42:52 AM
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Joined: 10/16/2016
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Location: Fussa, Tokyo, Japan
Hope123 wrote:
Almo, what photo service are you using? Do you pay for it?

No.
Do you think that Ursula K. Le Guin(or publisher?) will sue me?
will
Posted: Friday, July 21, 2017 10:45:03 AM
Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 6/29/2009
Posts: 1,035
Neurons: 4,149
FounDit wrote:
And no one can predict the future, in weather or anything else.

You’ve heard of germ theory and medicine, and engineering, and gravity, and the irascibility of grizzly bears, right? Eh?

... and weather forecasts. Not that we are discussing weather, we are discussing climate. The difference has been explained to you ad nauseam. Pretending it hasn't is intellectually dishonest.



I can’t believe it’s me pointing this out, but by the point that a person gets to moving the goalpost as often as FounDit is (and is peppering very post with ad hominem, equivocation and tangential misrepresentation) there really is no chance of intelligent discourse.

It’s sometimes worth preserving, just to see the self refuting argument unfold, but it’s not worth getting frustrated over.


.
Hope123
Posted: Friday, July 21, 2017 5:05:13 PM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 3/23/2015
Posts: 6,388
Neurons: 37,857
Location: Burlington, Ontario, Canada
Thanks, Almo. I don't know - better not to get caught? Photobucket and most other sites are now charging big bucks to do third party hosting. I want to find one that is still free. I have not had time to look into it in detail - I have a couple of ideas from other posters too. Actually I am procrastinating - I find navigating those kinds of sites frustrating at times till you get to know where everything is.

:::::

You are right, of course, Will. I know I am not frustrated. Those still on page 4 - Drago, Lotje and Progpen seem like well-rounded even-tempered persons and I don't sense frustration from them either. Almo likes to post pix. 👍

In order to feel insulted, one has to value the opinion of the person trying to insult. I have learned to always consider the source everywhere!

I write because I am curious and like to research, like to write, love a challenge, and love to score a goal even when the goal line has been moved. And hope those who lurk are reading my posts even if my style is not conciseness but a desire to include all related facts. And I do try exceptionally hard to verify my facts and my sources before posting. (If I had it to do again I think I'd have gone into research, especially with all the genome capabilities nowadays.)

It does not bother me that the presentation of scientific facts is ignored and the same arguments against are brought up again thread after thread. I actually get updates on the latest science as I do more research.


In this life there is nothing with the 100% certainty demanded by skeptics of climate change. One goes with the facts one has and makes a decision. Not making a decision to act IS making a decision.

Ignorance, allied with power, is the most ferocious enemy justice can have. -James Baldwin, writer
progpen
Posted: Saturday, July 22, 2017 7:15:47 AM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 10/2/2015
Posts: 1,437
Neurons: 172,118
Location: Princeton, Minnesota, United States
One thing that the GOP and other deniers don't talk about is the fact that a great many of those deniers (in the US) are also survivalists who have armories in their basements and are preparing for the zombie apocalypse / climate disaster end of the world. They do not fear this, but hope and pray for it.

So no, it isn't them gosh durn'd leftys thinking about climate change as the apocalypse. It's the right wing extremists praying for it.

Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter. ― Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.
FounDit
Posted: Saturday, July 22, 2017 11:42:12 AM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 9/19/2011
Posts: 8,158
Neurons: 43,559
Hope123 wrote:


No we don't believe there is a doomsday coming, FD. That is your misconception.
Really? So if there is no doomsday coming, why are you and the others so concerned about some terrible events you think are going to occur?

We believe there are foreword-thinking intelligent young people who get educations, learn how to think and reason, believe what experts in science tell them, accept reality, become scientists and entrepreneurs, and advance technology. We believe that humankind is not stupid and will figure this out through putting their heads together.
I believe the same thing. We have intelligent people who also tell us that the science isn’t settled, that what you imagine to be the future is not provable, and until you can show evidence that it is, we don’t need to follow you in your fear of the future.

We don't even mind dragging the skeptics along, even if they are kicking and screaming until they reap the benefits of such an approach.
Ah, so the idea from Climate Change believers is, “It’s our way and no other way”, huh? No one gets to have an opinion that differs from yours. That’s what I’ve been saying all along, and I’m finally glad to see you admit it.

There are other options besides sticking one's head in the sand or sitting there screaming the sky is the falling. Those options are to get off our butts and do something about it - and that something has been proven in other countries to not be such a hard choice and even benefits economies.
No sticking the head in the sand here. All you have to do is prove that the future you fear is a reality, that the present will continue in a straight line to the outcome you fear. And increasing the costs of generating power through ever increasing regulations and restrictions does NOT benefit economies, and I wait for evidence from you to show how that is possible.

We see that sensible governments such as China and India see the reality - that green energy is far cheaper than coal, and even though it is now their turn to develop, are being pragmatic and entrepreneurial creating companies that are supplying that green energy. The USA is being left in the dust.
Wrong. China is supplying green energy products for OTHERS TO USE, while they continue to build more coal fired plants for their energy. Speaking of which, why are the Paris Accords waiting for 10 to 15 years before they require China and other polluters to come into line, but want Western countries to immediately conform?

You can’t say you care about CO2 and allow the worst polluters to continue freely polluting while demanding those who already have instituted changes make ever greater sacrifices. Well, you can, and do, but the hypocrisy is so obvious.

We see places such as Southern Ontario that is now completely free of coal burning plants and thus free of smog days.
Great. Now demand the same of those worst polluters and leave the rest of us alone.

And with American travel bans and the atmosphere (in more ways than one there), the young are already going to other countries to get that education and with countries such as Canada pouring money into encouraging the young to stay and open those businesses here, it will even improve our economy. University foreign student registration is way up already pouring money into our educational systems and Silicon Valley young are moving here. Does Fox News not tell "the American people of the heartland" that?
Not sure what all that is supposed to mean in relation to climate change, unless you mean to say you are doing a better job of indoctrination of the young. And I’ve heard about that indoctrination on all the news channels, the few I occasionally see.



A great many people will think they are thinking when they are merely rearranging their prejudices. ~ William James ~
FounDit
Posted: Saturday, July 22, 2017 11:50:08 AM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 9/19/2011
Posts: 8,158
Neurons: 43,559
Will wrote:


FounDit wrote:
And no one can predict the future, in weather or anything else.


You’ve heard of germ theory and medicine, and engineering, and gravity, and the irascibility of grizzly bears, right?

... and weather forecasts. Not that we are discussing weather, we are discussing climate. The difference has been explained to you ad nauseam. Pretending it hasn't is intellectually dishonest.
And pretending you don’t know we are all talking about climate change is dishonest also. And it is also as equally dishonest to pretend you can predict the climate in ten years or fifty years than you can the weather six months from now.

I can’t believe it’s me pointing this out, but by the point that a person gets to moving the goalpost as often as FounDit is (and is peppering very post with ad hominem, equivocation and tangential misrepresentation) there really is no chance of intelligent discourse.
We skeptics didn’t set the goal posts, your group established them with the dire predictions of a future you cannot know. I simply say the goal posts you describe with you scenarios don’t exist and you have no evidence that they do, or will, exist in the future.

It’s sometimes worth preserving, just to see the self refuting argument unfold, but it’s not worth getting frustrated over.
That’s equally true of listening to you all repeat the tenets of your faith repeatedly. It’s like discussing religion with a Jehovah’s Witness.




A great many people will think they are thinking when they are merely rearranging their prejudices. ~ William James ~
progpen
Posted: Saturday, July 22, 2017 12:06:23 PM

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Location: Princeton, Minnesota, United States
Another element of the far right and the environment is their belief that their god put humans on the earth to use up the earth's resources just in time for the rapture.

Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter. ― Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.
Hope123
Posted: Saturday, July 22, 2017 12:28:48 PM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 3/23/2015
Posts: 6,388
Neurons: 37,857
Location: Burlington, Ontario, Canada
FounDit wrote:
Hope123 wrote:


No we don't believe there is a doomsday coming, FD. That is your misconception.
Really? So if there is no doomsday coming, why are you and the others so concerned about some terrible events you think are going to occur?

It is called prevention after calmly accepting bad news and making a decision to deal with it.
We believe there are foreword-thinking intelligent young people who get educations, learn how to think and reason, believe what experts in science tell them, accept reality, become scientists and entrepreneurs, and advance technology. We believe that humankind is not stupid and will figure this out through putting their heads together.
I believe the same thing. We have intelligent people who also tell us that the science isn’t settled, that what you imagine to be the future is not provable, and until you can show evidence that it is, we don’t need to follow you in your fear of the future.

Your same tiring response. Science is settled. Just because you don't understand or believe scientific models for predictions of the future patterns doesn't mean you can compare everyday weather to climate patterns which is a whole different ball game. Finding patterns and schemas in life is what humans do best and how we survive.

It makes me laugh that in order to disregard scientific facts or even criticism of one's president that people just declare the sources such as reputable scientists and the media to be invalid.

See Science in above post by Hope123 at 12:03 a.m.


We don't even mind dragging the skeptics along, even if they are kicking and screaming until they reap the benefits of such an approach.
Ah, so the idea from Climate Change believers is, “It’s our way and no other way”, huh? No one gets to have an opinion that differs from yours. That’s what I’ve been saying all along, and I’m finally glad to see you admit it.

And vice versa re your accusation. Besides it is your problem if you don't want your country to join the future of the world as that is the way the world is going. I don't take credit for what the world has decided.
There are other options besides sticking one's head in the sand or sitting there screaming the sky is the falling. Those options are to get off our butts and do something about it - and that something has been proven in other countries to not be such a hard choice and even benefits economies.
No sticking the head in the sand here. All you have to do is prove that the future you fear is a reality, that the present will continue in a straight line to the outcome you fear. And increasing the costs of generating power through ever increasing regulations and restrictions does NOT benefit economies, and I wait for evidence from you to show how that is possible.

See science and statistics from countries where it is working and grasp reality that green energy is now cheaper than coal and market forces in all countries are and will work to the beneift of climate change even when you oppose it.
We see that sensible governments such as China and India see the reality - that green energy is far cheaper than coal, and even though it is now their turn to develop, are being pragmatic and entrepreneurial creating companies that are supplying that green energy. The USA is being left in the dust.
Wrong. China is supplying green energy products for OTHERS TO USE, while they continue to build more coal fired plants for their energy.
Proof required.
Speaking of which, why are the Paris Accords waiting for 10 to 15 years before they require China and other polluters to come into line, but want Western countries to immediately conform?

Easy peasy - you've been told this many times - why you keep repeating the same question I don't know. N America has been and still is the major contributor to pollution for many years. Give them their chance to develop.

You can’t say you care about CO2 and allow the worst polluters to continue freely polluting while demanding those who already have instituted changes make ever greater sacrifices. Well, you can, and do, but the hypocrisy is so obvious.

You ignored my question "How exactly are "you doing your part"? .

We see places such as Southern Ontario that is now completely free of coal burning plants and thus free of smog days.
Great. Now demand the same of those worst polluters and leave the rest of us alone.


How can we leave you alone when we don't require anything of you, nor did the Paris Accord? It was voluntary.

You admitted that YOU are the one on here trying to persuade others to your point of view - why I don't know. Your country is your problem and although we wish she would do more, we are not trying to regulate your country. You can do what you want but you will also live with the consequences as will the rest of the world - who has no say when your country selfishly decides to remove regulations from polluters and yet that pollution affects us all.

Ontario is going to help you out - she just bought Avista, which operates in Washington state, Oregon, Idaho, Montana, and Alaska, and intends to vault the firm into the continent’s top 20 electricity companies. I expect the coal fired plant there will be shut down as soon as it is viable and other sources put into place.


And with American travel bans and the atmosphere (in more ways than one there), the young are already going to other countries to get that education and with countries such as Canada pouring money into encouraging the young to stay and open those businesses here, it will even improve our economy. University foreign student registration is way up already pouring money into our educational systems and Silicon Valley young are moving here. Does Fox News not tell "the American people of the heartland" that?
Not sure what all that is supposed to mean in relation to climate change, unless you mean to say you are doing a better job of indoctrination of the young. And I’ve heard about that indoctrination on all the news channels, the few I occasionally see.



I'm saying that that is how to grow economies in the future instead of frantically hanging on to old methods that no longer work.


Ignorance, allied with power, is the most ferocious enemy justice can have. -James Baldwin, writer
progpen
Posted: Saturday, July 22, 2017 2:56:37 PM

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Joined: 10/2/2015
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https://qz.com/982437/china-is-suspending-permits-for-new-coal-power-plants-in-29-out-of-32-provinces/

"China has just announced that it will suspend building new coal power plants in 29 out 32 provinces, according to a state-owned newspaper. This news comes only months after China announced it was canceling more than 100 new coal power plants."

"To be sure, China is not doing this for the environment. It’s true that reducing the number of coal power plants will likely help reduce China’s emissions in the long-term. But the real reason behind these cancellations is that the country has too much power capacity. Its fossil-fuel power plants can produce more than 1,000 GW of electricity (which is 25% more than what US fossil-fuel power plants can produce), but they run for less than half the time. And the average utilization rate for thermal power plants, according to the Chinese government’s own figures, fell 4.6% compared to last year."

Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter. ― Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.
progpen
Posted: Saturday, July 22, 2017 2:59:12 PM

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Location: Princeton, Minnesota, United States
Per FD: "All you have to do is prove that the future you fear is a reality"

Then it wouldn't be the future.

Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter. ― Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.
progpen
Posted: Saturday, July 22, 2017 3:10:33 PM

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Joined: 10/2/2015
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Location: Princeton, Minnesota, United States
The tantrums and talk of "indoctrination" might be cute for a child...nah, not even for them.

Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter. ― Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.
progpen
Posted: Saturday, July 22, 2017 3:45:01 PM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 10/2/2015
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Neurons: 172,118
Location: Princeton, Minnesota, United States
"Let's take a look at this data and talk about what it means."

"Fake news. All scientists are corrupt and working for the vast left wing conspiracy."

"Ah, right. So let's take a look at this data-"

"Fake news. All scientists are corrupt and working for the vast left wing conspiracy."

"Ok then, what data do you have to support your statement?"

"Fake news. All scientists are corrupt and working for the vast left wing conspiracy."

"Yes, you've said that before. So, do you have any data-"

"Fake news. All scientists are corrupt and working for the vast left wing conspiracy."

"Ah look, here's some data that appears to run counter to previous data..."

"Ah HA! See, I told you the scientists would tell it like it is! You all are wrong!"

"But it doesn't actually disprove any of the existing data."

"Fake news. All scientists are corrupt and working for the vast left wing conspiracy."

Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter. ― Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.
progpen
Posted: Saturday, July 22, 2017 6:28:24 PM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 10/2/2015
Posts: 1,437
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Location: Princeton, Minnesota, United States
progpen wrote:
Per FD: "All you have to do is prove that the future you fear is a reality"

Then it wouldn't be the future.


Actually, I can't believe it but I've found something that will allow us to do what FD demands of us:


Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter. ― Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.
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