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Lotje1000
Posted: Monday, June 19, 2017 3:42:08 AM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 11/3/2014
Posts: 1,003
Neurons: 521,217
Location: Leuven, Flanders, Belgium
FounDit wrote:
And now you, Hope and Lotje, have made my point perfectly, which is that the issue is NOT settled; that both scientists and lay persons have differing opinions on the subject. You both believe while I do not. But who gets defamed and attacked for their non-belief? If you want to believe that's fine. But you do not have the right to demand that others agree with you unless you can demonstrate concrete evidence, and you cannot. All you can prove is cycles because there has never been any evidence of a cycle that hasn't reversed itself.


Once again, FounDit, you're reading things into my post that I have not put there. I never mentioned climate change here so what you just said actually amounts to "Lotje posting about the flaws in my debating-approach perfectly illustrates my point on how scientists have not settled the climate issue yet."

I could give you credit for spinning this your way and hoping no one will actually read back to see the facts, but your behaviour in previous threads points more in the direction that you really have such a habit of pigeon-holing people that you see disagreement and you assume you know what the other person is saying without having to bother reading their posts.

I wasn't commenting on climate change, I was pointing out that you have a habit of shoving people who disagree with you into the 'Leftist' box (with the odd cheeky comment thrown in for good measure). Then I pointed out that rather than addressing that issue and thus making your future posts more credible, you just start blaming others for displaying habits you yourself have. If they are so bad, surely that means you should strive to be better.
FounDit
Posted: Monday, June 19, 2017 9:44:35 AM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 9/19/2011
Posts: 10,499
Neurons: 54,136
Lotje1000 wrote:
FounDit wrote:
And now you, Hope and Lotje, have made my point perfectly, which is that the issue is NOT settled; that both scientists and lay persons have differing opinions on the subject. You both believe while I do not. But who gets defamed and attacked for their non-belief? If you want to believe that's fine. But you do not have the right to demand that others agree with you unless you can demonstrate concrete evidence, and you cannot. All you can prove is cycles because there has never been any evidence of a cycle that hasn't reversed itself.


Once again, FounDit, you're reading things into my post that I have not put there. I never mentioned climate change here so what you just said actually amounts to "Lotje posting about the flaws in my debating-approach perfectly illustrates my point on how scientists have not settled the climate issue yet."
Your issue, then, is with Hope123. She said you agreed with her, and your past posts did appear to me to reveal that fact, whether mentioned here or not. But if you don't agree with her, you should state that fact. I will be the first to apologize if I have mischaracterized your position.

I could give you credit for spinning this your way and hoping no one will actually read back to see the facts, but your behaviour in previous threads points more in the direction that you really have such a habit of pigeon-holing people that you see disagreement and you assume you know what the other person is saying without having to bother reading their posts.
Pigeon-holing? Me? So does that mean that the political Left does NOT believe in anthropogenic climate change? Does this mean that you and Hope do not believe either? That I'm just pigeon-holing you both for the fun of it?

I wasn't commenting on climate change, I was pointing out that you have a habit of shoving people who disagree with you into the 'Leftist' box (with the odd cheeky comment thrown in for good measure). So there is no political Left that believes in climate change, and to say that is to make a false statement? Is that what you mean to say here?

Then I pointed out that rather than addressing that issue and thus making your future posts more credible, you just start blaming others for displaying habits you yourself have. If they are so bad, surely that means you should strive to be better.

You are right about that. Almost immediately after I posted yesterday, I felt a twinge of regret. I realized that I had forgotten that I was attempting to offer dissenting opinions to members of the The Holy Western Church of Climate Change. I should have adopted the same attitude I hold for believers of any religion, and that is to allow them to believe as they choose, while I may hold differing opinions; and that there is no need or point in arguing about them.


We should look to the past to learn from it, not destroy our future because of it — FounDit
Hope123
Posted: Monday, June 19, 2017 11:43:27 AM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 3/23/2015
Posts: 8,540
Neurons: 48,865
Location: Burlington, Ontario, Canada
No, FD. This is where Lotje entered into the Climate Debate part of it - don’t try to blame others.

“And now you, Hope and Lotje, have made my point perfectly, which is that the issue is NOT settled; that both scientists and lay persons have differing opinions on the subject. You both believe while I do not.”

I was responding to the "scientist and layperson" in your statement and just gave her credit as a layperson as I know she’s a reasonable and intelligent person who would have the information.

I am going to asume now everything I say must be true - as I have your say so. Whistle Whistle Angel Angel

In response to your Holy Church etc (probably something you picked up on the internet) - I had no twinges of regret for my post of responses of sarcasm where you tried to shut me up with YOUR sarcasm. Putting people down does not elevate you or give credence to your argument. In fact it does the opposite and only exacerbates the issue, often with responses in kind.


Lotje, FD can't seem to see that the box you are talking about is Leftist. He thinks it is a derogatory term as that is how the American Right uses it - but I wear it proudly.



"Do the people you care about love you back?" Warren Buffett's measure of success
Hope123
Posted: Monday, June 19, 2017 12:18:56 PM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 3/23/2015
Posts: 8,540
Neurons: 48,865
Location: Burlington, Ontario, Canada
Back to the "Meanwhile In" OP (although I'd better point out it has nothing to do with Climate)

This one's for Tov.



"Do the people you care about love you back?" Warren Buffett's measure of success
Drag0nspeaker
Posted: Tuesday, June 20, 2017 1:24:04 AM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 9/12/2011
Posts: 31,634
Neurons: 190,137
Location: Livingston, Scotland, United Kingdom

Meanwhile - in Canada . . .



Wyrd bið ful aræd - bull!
Lotje1000
Posted: Tuesday, June 20, 2017 2:49:24 AM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 11/3/2014
Posts: 1,003
Neurons: 521,217
Location: Leuven, Flanders, Belgium
FounDit wrote:
Your issue, then, is with Hope123. She said you agreed with her, and your past posts did appear to me to reveal that fact, whether mentioned here or not. But if you don't agree with her, you should state that fact. I will be the first to apologize if I have mischaracterized your position.

No, FounDit, my issue - as made plainly clear since my first post in this thread - is with you and your style of debate. Though I'm thrilled to see you've come back from your stance on not reading Hope's 'predictable Leftist ramblings'.

FounDit wrote:
Pigeon-holing? Me? So does that mean that the political Left does NOT believe in anthropogenic climate change? Does this mean that you and Hope do not believe either? That I'm just pigeon-holing you both for the fun of it?


Yes, you pigeon-hole. Just because all cats are mammals, doesn't mean all mammals are cats. Just because the political Left you so love to oppose doesn't share your opinions, doesn't mean everyone who opposes you is from the political Left. No, you're not doing it for the fun of it. You're doing it because it's comforting. It's nice to be able to shove all opposition into one box and treat them the same. However, it also means you're glossing over a lot of detail, thus showing everyone that you're not actually paying attention to what they say. That, in turn, ruins your credibility in any debate, whether or not you're coming up with decent arguments.

FounDit wrote:
So there is no political Left that believes in climate change, and to say that is to make a false statement? Is that what you mean to say here?

Whether there's a political Left that believes in climate change or not (there obviously is, not sure why you're bothering with this line of interpretation), is not my point. My point is that you're knowingly pigeon-holing your perceived opposition so you have to think less in trying to come up with arguments against them. Which is what I explained to you in what you quoted from me: "Then I pointed out that rather than addressing that issue and thus making your future posts more credible, you just start blaming others for displaying habits you yourself have. If they are so bad, surely that means you should strive to be better."

Either you're still misreading my posts as being involved in this climate debate, even after I explicitly told you they weren't about that. Or you're still trying to spin my words to make me fit the box of your opposition. Given your history, I'd guess the latter.

FounDit wrote:
You are right about that. Almost immediately after I posted yesterday, I felt a twinge of regret. I realized that I had forgotten that I was attempting to offer dissenting opinions to members of the The Holy Western Church of Climate Change. I should have adopted the same attitude I hold for believers of any religion, and that is to allow them to believe as they choose, while I may hold differing opinions; and that there is no need or point in arguing about them.


Nice of you to provide another example of your pigeon-holing behaviour. Honestly, in the last couple of threads I've seen you in, the best summary of your behaviour is a "cop-out". You enter a debate, then when thwarted you pigeon-hole people to easily dismiss what they have to say without having to actually deal with it, and when that doesn't work, you say you'll just take the high road and "agree to disagree" or some variant of "no point in arguing".

Again, FounDit, if you really care about persuading people to see your point of view, it might help to take a less hostile stance. That'll make people take you more seriously.
Jyrkkä Jätkä
Posted: Tuesday, June 20, 2017 5:37:44 AM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 9/21/2009
Posts: 42,649
Neurons: 465,819
Location: Helsinki, Southern Finland Province, Finland
I hope this picture of a sauna in Kiilopää, Lapland, helps to settle some argues here. It was Hope's hope to have one. We Finns are sometimes mad, but we know how to live.




In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.
Romany
Posted: Tuesday, June 20, 2017 2:25:11 PM
Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 6/14/2009
Posts: 15,371
Neurons: 48,249
Location: Brighton, England, United Kingdom

JJ -

Waddya mean "We Finns are *sometimes* mad?

However, since a trip to Bulgaria where I swam while watching everyone else ski one afternoon, I have to say I'm coming right round to the idea. I even handled the cold-water 'mistifier' which surprised everyone including me!
Romany
Posted: Tuesday, June 20, 2017 3:40:24 PM
Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 6/14/2009
Posts: 15,371
Neurons: 48,249
Location: Brighton, England, United Kingdom

To Lottje, Hope and anyone else who might be interested,

In Iraq women have declared Wednesday a White Day. i.e. Every woman who can will wear white every Wednesday to protest about having no choice about what they wear. They will also not wear scarves on this day.

I shall wear white tomorrow. And every Wednesday after. It's my own private little statement of solidarity. It's not an in-yer-face placard or anything. Just me thinking about all the millions of women around the world who didn't have the luck to get born into a free society.

For some reason I'm really having drama with this computer: now I can neither post links, nor even SEE the links you guys put up. However, if you just go to the BBC and type in White Wednesday Iraq it'll come up. (I can't even post the picture I've just learned).
FounDit
Posted: Tuesday, June 20, 2017 3:41:17 PM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 9/19/2011
Posts: 10,499
Neurons: 54,136
Lotje1000,

Ah, I see. You don’t want to answer my questions so you attempt to shift the topic to “pigeon-holing”.

Well, okay. You say “pigeon-holing” like that is a bad thing. But I think it rather neatly describes the positions various people take on differing topics. And in “pigeon-holing” you, I also do it to myself, do I not? I don’t believe in anthropogenic climate change, but Hope, and apparently you also, do believe in it. So am I supposed to feel insulted by your label “pigeon-holing”? I’m not; not in the least.

Furthermore, I don’t consider my stance at all hostile. “Pigeon-holing” and “hostile” are your labels. I’ve simply stated that there is no concrete proof of anthropogenic climate change; that there are differing opinions held by both scientists and citizens; and until there is a change in the evidence, I cannot support wasting money on, and insisting on the installation of, insufficient generation schemes over a “maybe” that lacks proof. If one day we develop an energy system that can provide for our needs and is clean, I'll support that. But that day isn't here yet.

And I know I won’t change any minds of those who accept the tenets of the climate change faith. That’s like trying to convert Christians or Muslims to atheism. No, my posts are simply my opinion on the subject, and if anyone is open to reason and logic, I may persuade them to remain skeptical. That is sufficient. Resisting the issue of climate change is, to my mind, akin to resisting the demands of ISIS. I think one should always resist faith-based fanaticism.

P.S. And it looks like the folks in Finland are entirely happy with both sides of the climate change argument. Good for them...Applause




We should look to the past to learn from it, not destroy our future because of it — FounDit
Hope123
Posted: Tuesday, June 20, 2017 5:20:28 PM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 3/23/2015
Posts: 8,540
Neurons: 48,865
Location: Burlington, Ontario, Canada
S-p-e-l-l-i-n-g it out for you FD . This is what you said that Lotje objected to and referred to as "pigeon-holing". "Hope,...I forgot Leftists don’t have a sense of humor". Better and more straightforward to just say, "Hope, you have no sense of humor". You accused that poor group of people of having a sense of humor like Hope's. Whistle Whistle

This is a language forum where people know obtuseness when they read it in your last couple of posts to Lotje. You are just digging yourself in deeper.

“The Holy Republican Church of Carbon” causes more of a threat to the world than ISIS.


:::::::::





"Do the people you care about love you back?" Warren Buffett's measure of success
Hope123
Posted: Tuesday, June 20, 2017 5:47:17 PM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 3/23/2015
Posts: 8,540
Neurons: 48,865
Location: Burlington, Ontario, Canada
Thanks for the photo, JJ. I liked the pix showing the personal family saunas too - out in the woods, even in winter.

Good one, Drago. And probably very true! Your post got me looking for some other “Meanwhile in Canada” ones where we laugh at ourselves, and there are soooo many to choose from as we too are a bunch of crazy people - but I wouldn't have it any other way.




Really? According to next two pix - We’re going to the dogs! (The beaver is our national symbol.)







Gay Pride Parade and our Prime Minister Trudeau.



I kid you not - a sign very similar to this is at the entrance to our condo.




"Do the people you care about love you back?" Warren Buffett's measure of success
almo 1
Posted: Tuesday, June 20, 2017 9:38:08 PM
Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 10/16/2016
Posts: 1,253
Neurons: 5,715
Location: Fussa, Tokyo, Japan





Meanwhile in japan


‘Vagina artist’ to marry British rock musician Mike Scott






I extrapolate that ,at least, she is not a leftist.








Hope123
Posted: Tuesday, June 20, 2017 10:56:23 PM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 3/23/2015
Posts: 8,540
Neurons: 48,865
Location: Burlington, Ontario, Canada
Meanwhile in Scotland -




Whoever wrote this has given up on the Toronto Maple leaf Hockey team.




Actually Drago warned me about this -



"Do the people you care about love you back?" Warren Buffett's measure of success
Hope123
Posted: Tuesday, June 20, 2017 11:16:51 PM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 3/23/2015
Posts: 8,540
Neurons: 48,865
Location: Burlington, Ontario, Canada
Meanwhile in Iraq -

Romany wrote:

To Lottje, Hope and anyone else who might be interested,

In Iraq women have declared Wednesday a White Day. i.e. Every woman who can will wear white every Wednesday to protest about having no choice about what they wear. They will also not wear scarves on this day.

I shall wear white tomorrow. And every Wednesday after. It's my own private little statement of solidarity. It's not an in-yer-face placard or anything. Just me thinking about all the millions of women around the world who didn't have the luck to get born into a free society.

For some reason I'm really having drama with this computer: now I can neither post links, nor even SEE the links you guys put up. However, if you just go to the BBC and type in White Wednesday Iraq it'll come up. (I can't even post the picture I've just learned).


Romany, I checked my closet - nothing white!

Digression - Here's a link you and others might be interested in in a similar vein. I guess I could call it "Meanwhile on Earth". 😀

https://www.thestar.com/business/2017/06/17/interrupting-women-is-a-social-disease-that-resists-eradication-paradkar.html

I don't mind being told I have no sense of humor or whatever the issue is and I can decide for myself if that is legit and I should change. But it is "how" the criticism is done - if it is constructive or not.

Because I was assertive, I have now been told by men twice on this forum to "Calm down" and one added "Dear". Another said I should be "put in my place". Exactly as the article explains SOME men historically have treated women. I had not thought of it here on the Forum till I read the article prompted by the men on the US Senate panel interrupting Kamala Harris. However, most of the men on here are great and of all the interactions, three is a pretty low number!

"Do the people you care about love you back?" Warren Buffett's measure of success
Lotje1000
Posted: Wednesday, June 21, 2017 3:30:36 AM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 11/3/2014
Posts: 1,003
Neurons: 521,217
Location: Leuven, Flanders, Belgium
Hope123 wrote:
S-p-e-l-l-i-n-g it out for you FD . This is what you said that Lotje objected to and referred to as "pigeon-holing". "Hope,...I forgot Leftists don’t have a sense of humor". Better and more straightforward to just say, "Hope, you have no sense of humor". You accused that poor group of people of having a sense of humor like Hope's. Whistle Whistle

This is a language forum where people know obtuseness when they read it in your last couple of posts to Lotje. You are just digging yourself in deeper.


Thanks, Hope, that's exactly right. I feel like I could change the thread's topic to the use of vocatives in the Dutch translation of Despicable me and FounDit would still read it as an opposition to his opinions about climate change.

I'm not here to debate climate change, FounDit, so I am not dodging your questions. Your pigeon-holing was the exact subject of my very first post thread and has been ever since. I don't know how that means I "apparently [...] also, do believe in" anthropogenic climate change as I never even broached the subject.
Jyrkkä Jätkä
Posted: Wednesday, June 21, 2017 5:33:51 AM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 9/21/2009
Posts: 42,649
Neurons: 465,819
Location: Helsinki, Southern Finland Province, Finland



In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.
Romany
Posted: Wednesday, June 21, 2017 7:59:20 AM
Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 6/14/2009
Posts: 15,371
Neurons: 48,249
Location: Brighton, England, United Kingdom
Yeah, this is a long one. Most people won't read it. But I hope you'll persevere because it looks as though you may have been misunderstanding my motivations?

Hope dear Whistle ,

you said: " I have now been told by men twice on this forum to "Calm down" and one added "Dear". Another said I should be "put in my place". Exactly as the article explains SOME men historically have treated women. I had not thought of it here on the Forum ..."

and I was absolutely gobsmacked!!

Really? Why do you think you, Lottje and (tho'so much less these days) me are the only women left standing? Remember some of the talented, professional, funny women who have all left? Didn't any of them send PMs telling you they were leaving exactly because of that? They don't encounter it in real life and they felt it was stupid to voluntarily elect to be spoken to or ignored or condescended to here? (I hope you understand that I don't mean ALL women here - only those who have opinions.No denying the 3 of us between us have lots of opinions - but there is still a feeling amongst some blokes that we should keep them to ourselves.)

Do you not remember, either, the entire (successful, I must say!) campaign Parsar took up against me, in particular? Don't you remember why? It was because I was a 'disgrace' to 'womanhood', I wasn't a 'real' woman, NONE of us 'knew our place', responding was 'attacking' when we did it but 'interesting' when men said the same things. We were 'potty-mouths', liars, silly, etc. etc. and now, just to underline our redundancy in the world, we are ignored - which has (in my case anyway) resulted in some of the newbies feeling it's perfectly ok to ignore women's input too.

Each time I've compared the divisiveness, lack of respect for truth, abuse etc. that has taken up lodging on these pages, I have compared TFD to a microcosm of what's happening in the USA this year. Including the idea that by seeing evidence that the things that have been said to and about us by a mere handful of males seems to be ok, and gets easily picked up by learners whose knowledge of English nuance, speech mores, acceptable language, etc. is undeveloped( I've come in for really nasty abuse from a couple of newcomer students whom I've hardly known were here. Not having ever communicated personally with me, they were open about taking their cue from what 'not a teacher' says!)

Many of our learners come from countries where women ARE 2nd class. Over the years I've been asked by male TFD members to answer some questions which they can relay to the poster... because that person will not have faith in an answer given by a female. Because I am a gentle, nurturing, timid woman who knows her place, I've always complied. But it used to be with the knowledge that, after some time on TFD, newcomers would soon become familiar with the idea that women speak. And that men and women speak, argue, discuss...together.

I don't have to say any of this to the majority of the guys on here - and they are all fully capable of realising that I'm not even discussing them.

And before anyone counters with "For someone who keeps insisting she's a-political you've seen fit to drag politics back into the convo." NO.

The TFD is a language forum. An English language forum. The English language is my job, my work, my hobby, my interest, my field of study. Learning grammar and vocabulary is only one aspect of acquiring language. Manners, culture, ethics, social cohesion - all impact upon it. No-one can gain fluency in ANY language without at least some idea of how these work in the target language. That is, and always has been, my reason for objecting to: people being called 'a piece of garbage' when no-one else calls it out; to ancient constructs such as "Man" meaning man AND woman; to 'please and thank-you'; to respect for another person's reception of what one is about to say; to hyperbole and inaccuracy; and to rudeness.
Hope123
Posted: Wednesday, June 21, 2017 9:37:05 AM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 3/23/2015
Posts: 8,540
Neurons: 48,865
Location: Burlington, Ontario, Canada
Jyrkkä Jätkä wrote:



:)

"Do the people you care about love you back?" Warren Buffett's measure of success
almo 1
Posted: Wednesday, June 21, 2017 9:53:52 AM
Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 10/16/2016
Posts: 1,253
Neurons: 5,715
Location: Fussa, Tokyo, Japan
almo 1 wrote:





Meanwhile in Japan


‘Vagina artist’ to marry British rock musician Mike Scott






I extrapolate that ,at least, she is not a leftist.













related thread:


forum.thefreedictionary.com/




Hope123
Posted: Wednesday, June 21, 2017 10:31:41 AM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 3/23/2015
Posts: 8,540
Neurons: 48,865
Location: Burlington, Ontario, Canada
Digression - Romany, Of course I knew about Parser - he was the one who said I should be put in my place. I considered the source. iThink was always telling people to calm down or they had no sense of humor, so I didn't view it as anti female at the time. The recent attack was from a different culture, so I allowed for that. I do remember defending you against attacks by another member (forget who) when you were ill. But my opinion was that that attack was done from jealousy of your knowledge. And a lot of it IS political and religious affiliation in the US, even with the new members.

But I had no idea there were others who have attacked you privately. And no - I was not included in private messages as to why people left the forum. I don't do much private messaging.

I am sorry if people have come to ignore your thoughtful, well-written, and very knowledgeable posts because of the attacks. That is exactly what happened to Hillary over twenty years. I always appreciate when you add your common sense to a thread. Even though I don't always agree, they (and Drago's) always make me think and realize that although we are cousins, Brits and Canadians are really different cultures.

But please don't let anything or anybody stop you from posting and from being yourself.

I guess I just respond to each case as it comes and often just consider the source when there is sarcasm. And consider that perhaps my arguments cannot be attacked so they attack with sarcasm. But sometimes one gets fed up with being Mrs. Polite while responding to sarcasm and although a good dose of it in return felt good, I'll try not to make it a habit because in the long run, it does not add to good discourse. That is one thing I admire about your writing - you are always straightforward but considerate of the feelings of others.

Another thing I've noticed is that when my posts have been ignored, it is because two people, often two males, have "issues" and are only arguing with each other. That is just human nature. I just note it and smile to myself - sometimes speaking up. Right now I am responding to you and ignoring Almo's posts mainly because I have no idea what he is trying to promote with his photos with no explanation.

And if people don't read my long posts, or don't read them because they don't like me, or don't bother because I am a woman - that is their prerogative. Although I have not been in a classroom for many years, I will probably always be a teacher who wants to share what bit of knowledge I've gained over the years. So if they choose to not read - that is also their loss. My favorite mug - Whistle




Hang in there. A female perspective is always helpful and 99.9% of the men (and women) on here agree with that statement. ❤️

Perhaps I should have responded with this in a private message but considered that maybe even though our posts are off topic, they give a perspective of the workings of what I consider to be a good forum, relatively free (right now) of contention. I did not understand how you thought I misunderstood your motivations - I know they are always about the good of the forum and its italicized purpose. We can make a point here or there but no one person can be responsible for the path the forum takes, just as my husband tells me to stop getting so upset and trying to shoulder the weight of the world's victims.


"Do the people you care about love you back?" Warren Buffett's measure of success
Hope123
Posted: Wednesday, June 21, 2017 11:52:50 AM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 3/23/2015
Posts: 8,540
Neurons: 48,865
Location: Burlington, Ontario, Canada
We always get a lot of potholes because of the freezing and thawing in winter and some are not repaired even in June! The Star posts incidents of where public maintenance is lacking and they often get results with repairs being completed more quickly by government agencies.



I would doubt they are still ice fishing this time of year, JJ? I don't think they are ice fishing here now but they do in winter.



The fires in Portugal killed a lot of people and the south western US is having a lot of problems caused by heat as well.

Over 50C in Death Valley and high forties in those states. Arizona forecast is 48C for today as was yesterday at 119F. We once drove across from Las Vegas to Bakersfield at 121F with no A/C and it was hot, let me tell you, dry heat or not.



"Do the people you care about love you back?" Warren Buffett's measure of success
FounDit
Posted: Wednesday, June 21, 2017 2:11:42 PM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 9/19/2011
Posts: 10,499
Neurons: 54,136
Wow,(laughing out loud at this). I really hit a nerve with that jest, didn't I? Nearly a full page of posts in a desperate attempt to prove you all actually DO have a sense of humor. Too funny. I did like some of the pics, however.

We should look to the past to learn from it, not destroy our future because of it — FounDit
Hope123
Posted: Wednesday, June 21, 2017 3:09:27 PM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 3/23/2015
Posts: 8,540
Neurons: 48,865
Location: Burlington, Ontario, Canada
FounDit wrote:
Wow,(laughing out loud at this). I really hit a nerve with that jest, didn't I? Nearly a full page of posts in a desperate attempt to prove you all actually DO have a sense of humor. Too funny. I did like some of the pics, however.


LOL. Don't give up your day job. It is a full page of pix by everyone desperately trying to keep putting the thread back on the "Meanwhile In" topic.

"Do the people you care about love you back?" Warren Buffett's measure of success
Hope123
Posted: Wednesday, June 21, 2017 3:09:46 PM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 3/23/2015
Posts: 8,540
Neurons: 48,865
Location: Burlington, Ontario, Canada
I just watched and decided to share this video of a ten minute interview of a common sense approach to the American presidency and to Climate Change by millionaire businessman who was mayor of New York City for three terms. An impressive man! I'm not sure if he is still with the UN now or not.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=BcBoQ9x179I

https://www.bloomberg.org — Bloomberg Philanthropies are about the arts, education, the environment, government innovation, and public health. The tenth wealthiest man in the world has done some impressive donations to the helping of others. He has pledged to give away half his wealth.

Michael Bloomberg on the The View video above says Trump is president and the country needs to get behind him and make it work. He said he takes the opposite approach to what Mitch McConnell did to Obama with his make him a one term president and block him all we can. Bloomberg does say that it is all right to show disapproval through protests and so forth as it is the American way. He says America doesn’t need to be made great again because it is already great.

The ideas he has described in his book “Climate of Hope” is that capitalism is the best system but it needs to try to include everyone and not just some. If ideas fail, don’t give up, try new ones. He gives examples about job creation towards the latter part of the video.

He says the National government and to some extent the State governments are not really necessary to effect climate change. Obama’s government was not helping the movement any more than Trump’s will be. It is the mayor who gets the call about “my kid is in hospital with an asthma attack - do something to clean the air.” And it is individuals who paint their roofs white and change to efficient heating and light bulbs and businesses who make the difference. I didn't know that 20% of energy use goes to lighting. Wow.

His philosophy is not to try to scare people but to show them the immediate benefits of taking action now.

He says the US government made a $15 million dollar commitment to the Paris Accord and the US government keeps its commitments so he expects it will on this. However, if necessary he will step up to show the world America is honorable.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Bloomberg


This is another video of an interview with him that I found as well about climate change.


https://youtu.be/P3NcPzzuhbY

A clever person solves a problem. A wise person avoids it. Albert Einstein

"Do the people you care about love you back?" Warren Buffett's measure of success
Romany
Posted: Friday, June 23, 2017 5:49:23 AM
Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 6/14/2009
Posts: 15,371
Neurons: 48,249
Location: Brighton, England, United Kingdom

Hope -

Sorry I took a couple of days to respond; but I was sincerely touched and I had to have a little think about your post to me.

Thank you, Hope. That's the first time in so long that that anyone has said anything ABOUT me that wasn't hurtful, spiteful or unfair - a stark reminder of how we all used to support each other & which gave TFD that 'special' feeling.

So thank you for that, girl. When people tell one long enough and often enough that one is...a list of things that are patently not true (there are only two people on the Forum who know anything at all about who I really am) - then one starts to believe it. I've been absorbing all that personal negativity to a point where I have truly been feeling that I really AM the unpleasant, dishonest, hurtful, stupid person that newcomers are warned about!!

Yes. Perhaps I too should have written back privately:there are still many who get uncomfortable when REAL feelings are expressed.

However, I don't think it hurts to remind people once more that, behind the avatars are real people, not bots!! Perhaps, feeling things really strongly is part of having BPS for which I'd never claim any special treatment or kid gloves - it's as tough for me as it is for the gay people on here (and yes, of course some of our posters are gay!) when they have to put up with threads by some posters targeting gay people as weird, or sub-standard or sick. Or the black and brown posters who are exposed to people saying they'd never get in a lift with them, or that they always cross the street if they see a 'person of colour' (stupid phrase!) coming their way!

The thing I love about the Internet and modern technology is the opportunities one gets to talk with people of every creed, religion, culture, etc. But the corollary is that one must keep in mind the old "First, do no harm" adage: and take care that one treats everyone one meets - no matter how 'different' - with the respect we've all been taught to show towards those who are walking down the same paths as we.

Hope - you've restored a little of my self-respect. Thanks from the bottom of my heart.

(And if anyone finds these 'naked feelings' embarrassing I'm not apologetic: most of us find 'naked' misogyny, racism, sexism or nastiness pretty embarrassing, too!)
Jyrkkä Jätkä
Posted: Friday, July 7, 2017 4:49:27 AM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 9/21/2009
Posts: 42,649
Neurons: 465,819
Location: Helsinki, Southern Finland Province, Finland
Meanwhile in Florida...




In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.
almo 1
Posted: Friday, July 7, 2017 7:10:29 AM
Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 10/16/2016
Posts: 1,253
Neurons: 5,715
Location: Fussa, Tokyo, Japan




Meanwhile in Florida:

Ichiro Suzuki Breaks MLB Record for Most Hits by Player Born Outside U.S.


http://bleacherreport.com/July 6, 2017






almo 1
Posted: Friday, July 7, 2017 7:12:15 AM
Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 10/16/2016
Posts: 1,253
Neurons: 5,715
Location: Fussa, Tokyo, Japan



Meanwhile in Japan:


Do you know Manny Ramirez?
Do you know where he is now?


He is in Kōchi,
and will be there until September.


http://www.japantimes.co.jp/sports/





will
Posted: Friday, July 7, 2017 9:44:44 AM
Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 6/29/2009
Posts: 1,167
Neurons: 4,830
FounDit wrote:
Ah, I see. You don’t want to answer my questions so you attempt to shift the topic to “pigeon-holing”.

FounDit, really? We’re all familiar with your propensity for sophistry as a diversion from addressing particular arguments, such as your climate change denial. Look here where I and others repeatedly asked you to defend your position – including a link you provided as ‘supporting’ evidence (but apparently didn’t read) – and without fail you chose to shift the debate to ad hominem and stereotypes.

Here again, where I recalled you dismissed my whole reasoning by questioning my grasp of English. Having just checked, I see you actually did it several time… pretty much the entire content of your argument.
FounDit wrote:
Once again, you have made some mistakes in your understanding of our English language.

It pleases me that, with your limited understanding of our language,

Your inability to understand why I point that out indicates to me that your command of the language is indeed, flawed.

And once again, your command of the language fails you…

Hopefully, my elucidations will help you in understanding our language better…


Nice Applause

Meanwhile in the real World:

The fact of the matter is clear: Among those who are qualified to understand the data and have debated all the evidence for decades, the scientific consensus is unequivocal. Apart from the USA, Syria and Nicaragua the international political consensus is just as solid. Just about every business on the planet, including ExxonMobil, Chevron, Shell and General Motors have also voiced their support for the Paris Agreement and for measures to tackle climate change.


They can't all be gratuitously dismissed as 'lefties', surely.


.



FounDit
Posted: Friday, July 7, 2017 10:52:37 AM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 9/19/2011
Posts: 10,499
Neurons: 54,136
will wrote:
FounDit wrote:
Ah, I see. You don’t want to answer my questions so you attempt to shift the topic to “pigeon-holing”.

FounDit, really? Yes, really. Because she really didn't answer my questions, but chose to shift the topic to pigeon-holing..We’re all familiar with your propensity for sophistry as a diversion from addressing particular arguments, such as your climate change denial. Look here where I and others repeatedly asked you to defend your position – including a link you provided as ‘supporting’ evidence (but apparently didn’t read) – and without fail you chose to shift the debate to ad hominem and stereotypes.
No sophistry at all. I have provided multiple instances of evidence over the years to show that not all scientists agree with anthropogenic climate change. I even provided some on the page you linked to. But you don't really want to be convinced you might be wrong, do you?

Here again, where I recalled you dismissed my whole reasoning by questioning my grasp of English. Having just checked, I see you actually did it several time… pretty much the entire content of your argument.
FounDit wrote:
Once again, you have made some mistakes in your understanding of our English language.

It pleases me that, with your limited understanding of our language,

Your inability to understand why I point that out indicates to me that your command of the language is indeed, flawed.

And once again, your command of the language fails you…

Hopefully, my elucidations will help you in understanding our language better…


Nice Applause
Thanks. I thought so, too. See what I did there? I took what you wrote and changed the meaning of it, just as you did to my postings, which is why I wrote as I did.
Meanwhile in the real World:
By all means, yes, let's get to the real world.

The fact of the matter is clear: Among those who are qualified to understand the data and have debated all the evidence for decades, the scientific consensus is unequivocal. No, it is not, and you cannot support that claim but by opinions that you agree with.Apart from the USA, Syria and Nicaragua the international political consensus is just as solid. Just about every business on the planet, including ExxonMobil, Chevron, Shell and General Motors have also voiced their support (Empasis FD) for the Paris Agreement and for measures to tackle climate change.


They can't all be gratuitously dismissed as 'lefties', surely.
Well, if they have "voiced their support" for climate change, then is that not the position of the political Left? Why, yes it is. So can they then be "gratuitously dismissed as 'lefties'"? Why, yes that can. See? It's easy to do when you give the the facts to make it true.

But besides that, are the leaders of all those countries you mentioned climate experts? NO. Are the leaders of those companies you mentioned all climate experts? NO. So the fact that they believe is no proof at all. It was in their best interest to agree with the Leftists who were in power.

But this is just like any other religion — you believe because someone told you this was true, so you have put your faith in what you have heard. I, meanwhile, remain a skeptic. I examine both sides and find that a great many scientists do not agree with anthropogenic climate change. I await more evidence.

What we have here is the exact opposite of the Atheist/Religion discussion you argued in other posts. In this case, you all are the believers by faith, and I am the Agnostic. Welcome to the real world.



.





We should look to the past to learn from it, not destroy our future because of it — FounDit
will
Posted: Friday, July 7, 2017 12:34:37 PM
Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 6/29/2009
Posts: 1,167
Neurons: 4,830
FounDit wrote:
I have provided multiple instances of evidence over the years to show that not all scientists agree with anthropogenic climate change. I even provided some on the page you linked to. But you don't really want to be convinced you might be wrong, do you?

So let’s be clear, in plain and simple English. Are you saying that John C. Fyfe, Dr. Nathan Gillett and Francis Zwiers, the authors of the paper you presented as evidence, are included in your claim that ‘not all scientists that agree with anthropogenic climate change’?

I’ve scanned that thread again and really can’t see any other instance (certainly not multiple instances) of evidence for scientists that don’t agree with the consensus.

FounDit wrote:
No, it is not, and you cannot support that claim but by opinions that you agree with

Tautology is not at all compelling. Is it even possible to support a claim with opinions that don’t agree with that claim. Now who’s struggling with the language? Think

FounDit wrote:
Well, if they have "voiced their support" for climate change, then is that not the position of the political Left? Why, yes it is. So can they then be "gratuitously dismissed as 'lefties'"? Why, yes that can. See? It's easy to do when you give the the facts to make it true.

I genuinely don’t understand what you are trying to say here. Can you try to state yourself more clearly... assume English is my second language.

FounDit wrote:
But besides that, are the leaders of all those countries you mentioned climate experts? NO.

No. Every nation on the planet (except USA, Syria and Nicaragua) has based it’s policy on climate change on the advice of the overwhelming scientific consensus. In the same way as I have a firm policy of not smoking despite not being an expert on lung cancer.

FounDit wrote:
Are the leaders of those companies you mentioned all climate experts? NO

No. The boards of these companies are acting on the advice of the overwhelming scientific consensus (and even in the case of the petrochemical industry, their own scientific data). And they are acting on the economic reality of choosing to ignore the overwhelming consensus.

FounDit wrote:
So the fact that they believe is no proof at all.

This is not how things work, you might want to brush up on your epistemology

FounDit wrote:
It was in their best interest to agree with the Leftists who were in power.

The idea that it is in the best interest of every nation on the planet, from oil rich Saudi Arabia to coal dependant India, to radically change the CO2 producing culture that currently underpins every aspect of our lives,for no good reason other than some global Leftist ideology, is frankly absurd.

For decades Exxon et al have been funding climate change denial because promoting the status quo on the quite was economically sound. Now they have about the most non-leftist administration America is likely to see, yet even they realise their cynical position in no longer tenable

FounDit wrote:
But this is just like any other…

And back to the diversion through ad hominem. Shame on you



.
Hope123
Posted: Friday, July 7, 2017 1:29:03 PM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 3/23/2015
Posts: 8,540
Neurons: 48,865
Location: Burlington, Ontario, Canada
Pragmatism says let's do whatever we can to help Nature with her cyclical mitigation. We can even make money while doing it. The rest is all USA politics.

(Pragmatism - action or policy dictated by consideration of the immediate practical consequences rather than by theory or dogma)

"Do the people you care about love you back?" Warren Buffett's measure of success
FounDit
Posted: Friday, July 7, 2017 10:37:24 PM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 9/19/2011
Posts: 10,499
Neurons: 54,136
will wrote:
FounDit wrote:
I have provided multiple instances of evidence over the years to show that not all scientists agree with anthropogenic climate change. I even provided some on the page you linked to. But you don't really want to be convinced you might be wrong, do you?

So let’s be clear, in plain and simple English. Are you saying that John C. Fyfe, Dr. Nathan Gillett and Francis Zwiers, the authors of the paper you presented as evidence, are included in your claim that ‘not all scientists that agree with anthropogenic climate change’?
No, that paper was to simply show that global warming has been overestimated by the anthropogenic climate change believers. That overestimation fact was stated in the very first sentence. Perhaps you shouldn't scan, but read more carefully.

I’ve scanned that thread again and really can’t see any other instance (certainly not multiple instances) of evidence for scientists that don’t agree with the consensus.
Well, of course not. I did say multiple instances over the years, not all in this one post. Once again you are not reading carefully.

FounDit wrote:
No, it is not, and you cannot support that claim but by opinions that you agree with

Tautology is not at all compelling. Is it even possible to support a claim with opinions that don’t agree with that claim. Now who’s struggling with the language? Think
There is no tautology in stating that what you said was incorrect. And I'm having some trouble understanding how it is possible to support a claim with opinions rather than facts. Is that like stating God exists because so many believe in him? Or that anthropogenic climate change is real because so many believe in it?...Think

FounDit wrote:
Well, if they have "voiced their support" for climate change, then is that not the position of the political Left? Why, yes it is. So can they then be "gratuitously dismissed as 'lefties'"? Why, yes that can. See? It's easy to do when you give the the facts to make it true.

I genuinely don’t understand what you are trying to say here. Can you try to state yourself more clearly... assume English is my second language.
Okay. The political Left believes in anthropogenic climate change. People who agree with them agree with the political Left. Ergo, they can be said to be "lefties". If you have trouble with that logic, I don't know that I can be of any more help than this.

FounDit wrote:
But besides that, are the leaders of all those countries you mentioned climate experts? NO.

No. Every nation on the planet (except USA, Syria and Nicaragua) has based it’s policy on climate change on the advice of the overwhelming scientific consensus. In the same way as I have a firm policy of not smoking despite not being an expert on lung cancer.

FounDit wrote:
Are the leaders of those companies you mentioned all climate experts? NO

No. The boards of these companies are acting on the advice of the overwhelming scientific consensus (and even in the case of the petrochemical industry, their own scientific data). And they are acting on the economic reality of choosing to ignore the overwhelming consensus.

FounDit wrote:
So the fact that they believe is no proof at all.

This is not how things work, you might want to brush up on your epistemology
But you just said that is how it works. They were told, and they believed!

FounDit wrote:
It was in their best interest to agree with the Leftists who were in power.

The idea that it is in the best interest of every nation on the planet, from oil rich Saudi Arabia to coal dependant India, to radically change the CO2 producing culture that currently underpins every aspect of our lives,for no good reason other than some global Leftist ideology, is frankly absurd.
Finally! I agree. We shouldn't change our current culture for no good reason - at least not until we have solid evidence that requires it. And faith is not evidence.

For decades Exxon et al have been funding climate change denial because promoting the status quo on the quite was economically sound. No doubt true.Now they have about the most non-leftist administration America is likely to see, yet even they realise their cynical position in no longer tenable
That's not the reason for staying with the accord. They want to stay with it because it will add billions of dollars to their accounts. In the same way Al Gore et al., have become millionaires/billionaires off of these scare tactics.

FounDit wrote:
But this is just like any other…

And back to the diversion through ad hominem. Shame on you
No ad hominem at all. It is a fact that you can produce no evidence humans are causing any kind of climate change. You believe by faith while I await evidence.

But it is curious how desperate your group is to proselytize for the faith. I can only assume you all fear an Armageddon similar to the one described in Revelations unless you can persuade everyone to join you in your crusade. And you say you are not a person of faith...pshaw! Of course you are.



.


We should look to the past to learn from it, not destroy our future because of it — FounDit
Hope123
Posted: Saturday, July 8, 2017 1:19:21 AM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 3/23/2015
Posts: 8,540
Neurons: 48,865
Location: Burlington, Ontario, Canada








"Do the people you care about love you back?" Warren Buffett's measure of success
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