The Free Dictionary  
mailing list For webmasters
Welcome Guest Forum Search | Active Topics | Members

Meanwhile in Finland Options
Jyrkkä Jätkä
Posted: Friday, June 09, 2017 7:04:03 AM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 9/21/2009
Posts: 39,986
Neurons: 307,192
Location: Helsinki, Southern Finland Province, Finland
It's summer for sure. Not very warm yet, but some +20 degrees Celsius. In Lapland they have opened the ski slopes in Saariselkä because there is still snow enough.






In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.
taurine
Posted: Friday, June 09, 2017 8:28:21 AM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 4/20/2016
Posts: 623
Neurons: 54,528
Think It looks like in Finland it is possible to notice a bald, undisguised patch of land contrasting with snow covered surface.
jacobusmaximus
Posted: Saturday, June 10, 2017 2:13:03 AM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 4/17/2009
Posts: 10,958
Neurons: 348,105
Location: Glasgow, Scotland, United Kingdom
It looks like in Finland you get towed uphill backwards by your hat.Whistle

I remember, therefore I am.
Epiphileon
Posted: Saturday, June 10, 2017 4:44:57 AM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 3/22/2009
Posts: 3,942
Neurons: 58,744
The Sierra Mountains in California also received record amounts of snowfall this last winter. Squaw Valley ski resort may not completely close at all this year.

Question authority. How do you know, that you know, what you know?
FounDit
Posted: Saturday, June 10, 2017 11:18:35 AM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 9/19/2011
Posts: 8,306
Neurons: 44,413
None of this can be possible. These are fake news pictures. After all, Climate Change is melting all the ice caps and snow on the planet. We're all going to drown! What are these people thinking? They should be wearing life preservers!...Whistle

A great many people will think they are thinking when they are merely rearranging their prejudices. ~ William James ~
Hope123
Posted: Saturday, June 10, 2017 4:03:27 PM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 3/23/2015
Posts: 7,279
Neurons: 42,042
Location: Burlington, Ontario, Canada
JJ, I guess you and they got an excess of snow that hasn't melted yet. The skiers will be loving it. If it had melted faster or there had been excessive rain, there might have been flooding problems as in Canada and other countries. We had a great easy winter where I live and we loved it but other parts of Canada got nailed with excessive snow and rain. However, these are only abnormal weather patterns and when they are considering climate change they don't just consider one winter or even one year. It is weather patterns over many years and how FAST it has changed since the industrial revolution. Unusual severe weather changes can be either hot or cold extremes or more severe and more numerous storms as well.
::::


No "going to" about it - we are drowning. No fake pix on this post! Dancing

Five of these pix are from Ontario and Quebec with much greater than the average rainfall and snowfall affecting
The Great Lakes' levels and higher water temperatures affecting sea life! The flooding has affected shipping on the St. Lawrence River - the main waterway in Eastern Canada.

People are going to have to learn to build on higher ground and forget those great views from waterfront properties.

Edited - as I posted this, I saw the Einstein quote in my signature... Seems like a good idea to me. :)

A clever person solves a problem. A wise person avoids it. Albert Einstein
















A smile is a curve that sets everything straight. Phyllis Diller
FounDit
Posted: Wednesday, June 14, 2017 1:24:04 PM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 9/19/2011
Posts: 8,306
Neurons: 44,413
Hope123 wrote:

::::


No "going to" about it - we are drowning. No fake pix on this post! Dancing

[and]

People are going to have to learn to build on higher ground and forget those great views from waterfront properties.



Really? Hmmm...I was just at the beach the day before yesterday on the Gulf of Mexico and the water level is exactly the same as it has always been for at least the last 60 years I've been looking at it. I guess the flooding in Canada hasn't reached the rest of the world yet...Whistle Too funny.

A great many people will think they are thinking when they are merely rearranging their prejudices. ~ William James ~
Hope123
Posted: Wednesday, June 14, 2017 4:15:26 PM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 3/23/2015
Posts: 7,279
Neurons: 42,042
Location: Burlington, Ontario, Canada
Sorry to hijack your thread, JJ.

So you think, FD, it is too funny that Canadians are having to bail out their homes, cannot reach their cottages, and have billions of dollars in damage rarely covered by flood insurance while your Gulf levels remain stable?

But then I guess it is what I should expect from someone who supports policies of a government that removed regulations so that all the pollution emissions from American factories and coal mines can return to spewing it into the air where it not only pollutes America but is brought on the winds to Canada? And a government that removes the funding necessary to continue to clean up the garbage and pollution mostly from American industry put into the largest body of fresh water in the world.

The glaciers are melting in the north. There are icebergs hampering shipping. Because of changes in flow one river just dried up completely.

As long as your world is fine, who cares about neighbors? After all, selfishness is a basic human right. Whistle

BTW - In response to your tongue-in-cheek comment that flooding hasn't reached the rest of the world yet - One of those pix was from Paraguay and one from Vietnam if I remember the countries correctly. But since Canada is the only place I know for sure that it is unusual I did not research other parts of the world. And I couldn't copy a video the other day or I'd have posted it of a man water skiiing on the streets of either Lauderdale or Miami after an unusual amount of rain. And of a car in a sinkhole in FL caused by the excessive rain, although sinkholes are not unusual in FL.

Many aniimals, coral, bees, and birds are dying, our oceans are acidified, there are enormous plastic swirls in our oceans, low-lying countries are being flooded, and there are extremes in weather patterns all over the world, all caused by one creature. I don't find that funny at all.

A smile is a curve that sets everything straight. Phyllis Diller
Jyrkkä Jätkä
Posted: Wednesday, June 14, 2017 5:09:56 PM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 9/21/2009
Posts: 39,986
Neurons: 307,192
Location: Helsinki, Southern Finland Province, Finland
Just wait until you get here ;-)




In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.
Romany
Posted: Wednesday, June 14, 2017 5:54:02 PM
Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 6/14/2009
Posts: 13,345
Neurons: 40,668
Location: Brighton, England, United Kingdom

Hope -

have a feeling FD was being rather tongue-in-cheek there. The Gulf of Mexico is currently a hot topic (yeah - aware of the pun there!) as it has the largest Dead Zone in America and it's predicted that by the end of summer, it'll be the size of Connecticut.

You have to scroll down past the graphics on the first one - but it does give the number of inches in has risen in the past 80 years. http://bit.ly/2t3ly2p

This is a blog that encapsulates what the issues are. http://bit.ly/2rsa3ol

And this is the actual scientific report they refer to: http://bit.ly/2tnYL0B

Not sure whether 'too funny' was directed at the fact that Mexico is going to come off really badly from these events.As it's still all fake news and a hoax with a cast of millions perhaps that's the one REAL fact that managed to slither through?



Hope123
Posted: Wednesday, June 14, 2017 6:15:02 PM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 3/23/2015
Posts: 7,279
Neurons: 42,042
Location: Burlington, Ontario, Canada
Romany, As I said I took the tongue-in-cheek symbol placed next to it to go with the statement about Canada being the only place where flooding is occurring and that his eyesight and memory are not really reliable sources for small increments as waterfront properties there are still the same. Since it came AFTER the emoji I had no idea what the too funny bit referred to either and took it to mean climate change and his whole post in general since I know his views very well on CC. FD can explain if he wants.

You and JJ posted while I did some research about flooding in the US and around the world but I'll still post my research. Thanks for the links.

JJ, brrr. A bikini - lying on ice!

:::

“The Northwest Gulf of Mexico (map shows along Texas coast) is home to the largest rates of relative sea level rise in the US and 10 of the largest 13 US ports by tonnage (USDOT 2016)” NOAA dot gov

In fact in the last twenty years summer sea level has increased on Florida's Gulf Coast by a total of 4 inches (10 cm), and this increase in that time is not found any where else in the world.

But sea levels don’t rise evenly around the world and since the Gulf of Mexico has tides, surges, huge hurricane storms, and is already used to floods, there will be little change in flooding there.

The United States in general IS getting more severe weather and more floods because warmer air can hold more moisture so there is more precipitation.

It only takes about 4 inches of an increased water level to cause major flooding in some areas. Scientists estimate that as early as 2030, a 4-inch sea level rise could double the frequency of severe flooding in many parts of the world, and increase it by as much as 25 times in the tropics. It is already having an impact. But dire predictions can be averted if we act now.

The Solomon Islands, a nation made up of hundreds of islands and with a population of about 640,000, lies about 1,000 miles north-east of Australia. Sea levels have risen over two hundred mm (almost eight inches) in twenty years, several uninhabited islands are gone, and villages have been swept into the sea from other islands.

Check out this short video where Leonardo di Caprio visited a Pacific Island and a resident pointed out that the islands contribute the least to climate change but are feeling it the worst.

http://channel.nationalgeographic.com/before-the-flood/videos/feeling-the-effects-of-climate-change/

I expect if I researched I could find many more places where climate change has caused sea levels to rise creating unusual flooding. It is not just in Canada as intimated.

Of course the world always has had extreme weather and always will, and individual occurrences depend on a lot of things, including natural weather and climate patterns like El Nino.

(I lost my link for the following quote.)

But “The takeaway is that pumping carbon pollution into the air is like trying to beat someone playing with crooked dice. We may get lucky for a spell, but we can't beat the odds forever.”


A smile is a curve that sets everything straight. Phyllis Diller
Hope123
Posted: Wednesday, June 14, 2017 7:01:11 PM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 3/23/2015
Posts: 7,279
Neurons: 42,042
Location: Burlington, Ontario, Canada
This is how a river disappeared in four days - interesting in spite of its cause.

https://www.theguardian.com/science/2017/apr/17/receding-glacier-causes-immense-canadian-river-to-vanish-in-four-days-climate-change

A smile is a curve that sets everything straight. Phyllis Diller
Jyrkkä Jätkä
Posted: Wednesday, June 14, 2017 7:10:33 PM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 9/21/2009
Posts: 39,986
Neurons: 307,192
Location: Helsinki, Southern Finland Province, Finland
Hey, Hope!

You are not threadjacking. My purpose for the initial post was to demonstrate we have climates ;-)


In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.
Hope123
Posted: Wednesday, June 14, 2017 9:26:10 PM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 3/23/2015
Posts: 7,279
Neurons: 42,042
Location: Burlington, Ontario, Canada
Jyrkkä Jätkä wrote:
Hey, Hope!

You are not threadjacking. My purpose for the initial post was to demonstrate we have climates ;-)


Good. I'm afraid I do get a little wound up when I see what is happening and when it looked as if humans finally got the message and were going to actually TRY to do something, somebody in power came along to try and spoil it. I hope the world succeeds in spite of him.

I have been interested in helping nature and wildlife and trying to keep the environment clean for forty-two years - long before it even became a topic of discussion in mainstream.

Did you find the river that disappeared story interesting? Any tales like that in your neck of the woods?

A smile is a curve that sets everything straight. Phyllis Diller
srirr
Posted: Thursday, June 15, 2017 2:05:17 AM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 12/29/2009
Posts: 5,724
Neurons: 164,812
Location: Delhi, NCT, India
Oh! What a scene! We definitely have climates. And when you talk of summers, we are much different on what Finland can see in summers. :) The continental climate makes us wet, cold, dry, humid, drenched...of course at different points of time. At present we are enjoying the heat waves with dried land and lakes, but we are awaiting the rains.



This is an older pic, but it is what we had felt earlier. Boo hoo!



It is not a drain flowing on the road. It is rather the road (the asphalt) melting due to heat. Temperature crossing 47 and 48 C.


We are responsible for what we are, and whatever we wish ourselves to be, we have the power to make ourselves. ~ Swami Vivekanand
FounDit
Posted: Thursday, June 15, 2017 11:40:35 AM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 9/19/2011
Posts: 8,306
Neurons: 44,413
Well, Hope, we’ve been down this road before. You know I don’t agree with the idea of anthropogenic climate change, so I assumed you knew I was teasing you about the difference in our beliefs. I forgot Leftists don’t have a sense of humor, and that is the reason for what reads as an angry emotional response.

So it seems to me that the best response I can make is to use your own words to answer the topic of man-made climate change. I adopt the same attitude as you do in your post to Jacobusmaximus in the topic of religion vs. morality, but I’m going to substitute climate change for religion.

Hope123 wrote:
[directed back by FounDit]
Of all the arguments on anthropogenic climate change, the one you just posited is an anecdotal subjective opinion and as such cannot be proved - because there are no facts to prove it is true that humans caused this flooding.

I do not wish to take that anecdotal evidence away from you but it does not make the concept become factual evidence to anyone except you. Believing in something does not make it true.

I have mentioned several times before that psychological studies show that the human brain is set up to see patterns or schemas to help us deal with new situations by using past information. We are very, very good at it and it is usually beneficial to us. We often even use this ability to supply proof of the cause of what is happening in the present.

The climate is unpredictable and in order to make it more predictable and thus more secure, humans try to take the randomness out by noticing patterns and tying them to causality.

In fact we are so good at it that people often see a pattern or purpose in things that are actually random. Using this mechanism we can make random or unrelated events seem like anthropogenic climate change, especially if we want those beliefs to be true. We tend to read into things what we want. And each time our confirmation bias is confirmed, the belief becomes strengthened.

Someone who does not believe in man-caused climate change may interpret the same event as simply a natural pattern, or cycle, as I and millions of others do.

It is not a really good example but it is all I can think of at the moment – we see flooding in an area, or even several areas around the planet. The believer in climate change sees this as proof that these occurrences portend a straight line end result, ignoring all the times that flooding ceased and was followed by dry periods. And we always assume that the event was a sign of a path to an inevitable result.

Like others, I question conclusions that appear to be politically motivated. This is because such conclusions are connected to the LACK OF ANY REAL proof humans are responsible.

On the 97% lie:
In 2008, a two question survey was taken by Margaret R.K. Zimmerman, MS, and published by the University of Illinois. It was sent to 10,257 earth scientists. 3,146 responded.

96% of the 3,146 came from the US, and about 9% of those from California, which is twice as large a share as from Europe, Asia, Australia, the Pacific, Latin America and Africa combined.

77 of these were declared “experts”, but two were excluded from the second question. So only 75 out of 77 were questioned and 97.4% of those 75 agreed with the consensus that humans were responsible for climate change. This is where the 97% number comes from. So it is NOT 97% of ALL scientists. It was 97.4% of 75 scientists out of the 3,146 who responded.

A person can find any number of places disputing the claim for anthropogenic climate change if there is a desire to do more than accept at face value what we’ve been told to believe. Here is just one with 22 links at the bottom supporting the report:

http://www.truthwiki.org/climate-change-global-warming/

I suffer from no illusion that any of this will change your opinion, so we'll just have to continue to agree to disagree and continue to enjoy (or endure) whatever the climate throws at us in its cyclic nature.




A great many people will think they are thinking when they are merely rearranging their prejudices. ~ William James ~
Hope123
Posted: Thursday, June 15, 2017 10:16:47 PM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 3/23/2015
Posts: 7,279
Neurons: 42,042
Location: Burlington, Ontario, Canada
"Meanwhile in Niagara Falls New York", today - check out this video.

"Not to be outdone by her husband, Erendira Wallenda set a record Thursday morning when she successfully hung by her teeth — twice — and toes while on a hoop attached to a helicopter 300 feet above Niagara Falls."

https://www.aol.com/video/view/woman-hangs-from-her-teeth-and-toes-from-a-helicopter-over-niagara-falls/5942e6889e45103e2f0e3b74/?a_dgi=aolshare_email

http://ftw.usatoday.com/2017/06/erendira-wallenda-helicopter

I heard she was not allowed on the Canadian side but no media has corroborated that for me yet.




A smile is a curve that sets everything straight. Phyllis Diller
Jyrkkä Jätkä
Posted: Friday, June 16, 2017 4:10:53 AM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 9/21/2009
Posts: 39,986
Neurons: 307,192
Location: Helsinki, Southern Finland Province, Finland



In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.
Kunstniete
Posted: Friday, June 16, 2017 4:41:28 AM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 1/25/2017
Posts: 1,203
Neurons: 171,907
Location: Berlin, Berlin, Germany
This thread seems to be full of disbelievers, you all seem to have missed the Trump's wise declaration.
There is no climate change (and probably no climate at all), so why bother? Not talking ;)

The value of choice is not in the size of the action but in its effect.
Lotje1000
Posted: Friday, June 16, 2017 4:46:10 AM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 11/3/2014
Posts: 897
Neurons: 391,738
Location: Gent, Flanders, Belgium
FounDit wrote:
I forgot Leftists don’t have a sense of humor, and that is the reason for what reads as an angry emotional response.

I suffer from no illusion that any of this will change your opinion, so we'll just have to continue to agree to disagree and continue to enjoy (or endure) whatever the climate throws at us in its cyclic nature.



Agreeing to disagree might be a lot more successful without shoving people into stereotyped boxes. It'll also help your credibility.
FounDit
Posted: Friday, June 16, 2017 12:39:12 PM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 9/19/2011
Posts: 8,306
Neurons: 44,413
I’m “shoving” people into a stereotyped box? What kind of box would that be? The kind where people who disagree with you are labeled “Climate-deniers”? The kind of box you put people into who disagree with you and accuse them of wanting to kill their children and others with poisoned air and dirty water? The kind of box in which you label people who disagree with you by accusing them of wanting to destroy the planet? That kind of box?
Nah-h-h, not me.


A great many people will think they are thinking when they are merely rearranging their prejudices. ~ William James ~
Hope123
Posted: Friday, June 16, 2017 1:55:43 PM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 3/23/2015
Posts: 7,279
Neurons: 42,042
Location: Burlington, Ontario, Canada
Lotje, American conservatives used to be united by their credo of opposing small government. That has been replaced and what unites them now is hating the media and hating the Left. I have found in several tries there is no sense asking them to stop their generalizations and cracks about Leftists. I no longer point that out - those cracks are their first derogatory reaction. [Edited - and now as I go to post I see complaints about some comments made in public that are being projected on here (where no one has EVER made such comments) and used as an excuse to box up people on the forum.]

I posted pictures of Canadians in distress (I have friends with cottages on the Toronto Islands and some in Montreal) and FD makes a not only ambiguous but tasteless -what he calls - joke about adversity, knowing full well how I feel about the environment and that they are Canadians in the photos. I see them as people, not photos, no matter in which country people are in distress.

Besides, there is no sense arguing with a denialist from Oil-land-Texas which is the head office in the United States of anti "climate-change-by-humans"(or anthropogenic global warming also known as AGW).

The extremely wealthy Koch brothers have an oil corporation that is the second largest privately-held company in America and it has an especially poor environmental record. Not only have the Kochs poured tons of money into seducing the public into believing climate change is not man made, but they have influenced other companies to do the same. It has been documented that they took over the Tea Party movement and as Drago has mentioned many times, corporate influence is reaching into unprecedented areas of governments. This takeover was noted in America in 1971 in the Lewis Powell Memo. They are doing with climate change what the tobacco companies did and are still doing with denialist propaganda about there being no relationship between cigarettes and cancer.

As of 2014 at least, Koch, Big Pharma, and the tobacco industry are still funding ALEC (American Legislative Exchange Council) although other funders have pulled out over stand-your-ground laws and voter suppression. http://www.alecexposed.org/wiki/ALEC_Exposed

People can go on Facebook and Twitter and unmask the experts in the media taking money from these sources and who announce and promote their anti-climate change theories.



A smile is a curve that sets everything straight. Phyllis Diller
Hope123
Posted: Friday, June 16, 2017 2:02:40 PM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 3/23/2015
Posts: 7,279
Neurons: 42,042
Location: Burlington, Ontario, Canada
Surely nobody would believe the conspiracy theories on the WIKI link provided. In the first paragraph where they got to the part about the Great Lakes only being open three months of the year, I was incredulous! Absolute lies! I live on the Great Lakes. They do freeze but not completely. Most are open for navigation April or earlier till the late fall. Lake Superior farther north may freeze over - I don't know. This is normal. In 2016 the lakes were freer of snow and ice than ever. The Arctic IS melting - there are icebergs floating in the seas. I skimmed a bit more - Obama did not embezzle money. They are still on about how Obama said long ago that 97 % of scientists agree when he should have added “97% who studied or commented on the topic”.

Better still to look at it this way -

A compilation of abstracts of 11,944 papers on climate change published from 1991 through 2011, found only 78 (0.7 percent) that clearly rejected man-made global warming and 40 (0.3 percent) that expressed uncertainty about it. So only 1 percent of published climate abstracts from 1991 to 2011 explicitly questioned the notion that humans are warming the climate.

By 2014 Geologist James Lawrence Powell did a similar if less painstaking examination of the abstracts of 24,210 peer-reviewed climate papers published in 2013 and 2014 and found only five (0.021 percent) that "in my judgment explicitly rejected AGW."





A smile is a curve that sets everything straight. Phyllis Diller
Hope123
Posted: Friday, June 16, 2017 2:08:28 PM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 3/23/2015
Posts: 7,279
Neurons: 42,042
Location: Burlington, Ontario, Canada
JJ, I think of you 2-3 times a week as I sit in the sauna after working out and swimming at the fitness club. However, it is not surrounded in the beautiful scenery and snow I remember in pix you have posted about saunas in Finland! Here’s another “Meanwhile in Finland” that they could change to Canada in winter in some areas. How about some of your pix of Finland’s saunas again?



A smile is a curve that sets everything straight. Phyllis Diller
Romany
Posted: Friday, June 16, 2017 2:18:05 PM
Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 6/14/2009
Posts: 13,345
Neurons: 40,668
Location: Brighton, England, United Kingdom

But, going back to what I've been saying all along, is that good things are happening, too.

196 Senators are filing suits against The Orange man; impeachment processes are going ahead; Trump & co under investigation for obstruction of justice...it's a long, long list.

And I know that Progpen doesn't share my ethos - but I truly believe things WILL be better when all this is over. Because I'm sure the American people are just the same as other people everywhere: they want peace and security and truth. So surely, if the world actually does manage to make it through, they never want to go through this again. Thus I think those with any sense will go through the roles and the set-ups of the current WH, and will try to cut out loopholes, and change protocols to come up with a system which ensures the safety of everyone.

I still cannot think the world a horrid place, and I'll NEVER believe that humankind is evil!

Lotje1000
Posted: Friday, June 16, 2017 2:47:37 PM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 11/3/2014
Posts: 897
Neurons: 391,738
Location: Gent, Flanders, Belgium
FounDit wrote:
I’m “shoving” people into a stereotyped box? What kind of box would that be? The kind where people who disagree with you are labeled “Climate-deniers”? The kind of box you put people into who disagree with you and accuse them of wanting to kill their children and others with poisoned air and dirty water? The kind of box in which you label people who disagree with you by accusing them of wanting to destroy the planet? That kind of box?
Nah-h-h, not me.


"But mommy, they started it!"
Hope123
Posted: Friday, June 16, 2017 3:17:31 PM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 3/23/2015
Posts: 7,279
Neurons: 42,042
Location: Burlington, Ontario, Canada
This might hit home when they start losing these!

https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/like-grinch-climate-change-coming-your-christmas-will-nichols

Ah so. So MAYBE that’s why I can’t find ground cloves in my favorite brand in Canada.





A smile is a curve that sets everything straight. Phyllis Diller
Romany
Posted: Saturday, June 17, 2017 5:54:43 PM
Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 6/14/2009
Posts: 13,345
Neurons: 40,668
Location: Brighton, England, United Kingdom

Hope -
That big, green, simple quote in your post makes it absolutely inconceivable to me why, whatever a person believes in, they wouldn't want a better world for their children or grandchildren? Basic human nature.
FounDit
Posted: Sunday, June 18, 2017 10:15:45 AM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 9/19/2011
Posts: 8,306
Neurons: 44,413
And now you, Hope and Lotje, have made my point perfectly, which is that the issue is NOT settled; that both scientists and lay persons have differing opinions on the subject. You both believe while I do not. But who gets defamed and attacked for their non-belief? If you want to believe that's fine. But you do not have the right to demand that others agree with you unless you can demonstrate concrete evidence, and you cannot. All you can prove is cycles because there has never been any evidence of a cycle that hasn't reversed itself.


A great many people will think they are thinking when they are merely rearranging their prejudices. ~ William James ~
philips daughter
Posted: Sunday, June 18, 2017 11:07:51 AM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 4/21/2017
Posts: 111
Neurons: 19,954
It is sad that forty years after the EPA was signed we still have to have this discussion. I saw a documentary celebrating the EPA (signed in 1970 by president Nixon) and it just compared the skies over LA now and then and in other places. It is better than it was. Maybe you don't remember how pollution was destroying rivers and pesticides were killing people. I don't want to go back. I thought, way back then, that it was settled. We would progress. Do better, be smarter. Why did that make me a "tree-hugging nut?" Why does the right want to drink lead polluted water? You don't seem to understand water and air are climate.
Hope123
Posted: Sunday, June 18, 2017 6:36:31 PM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 3/23/2015
Posts: 7,279
Neurons: 42,042
Location: Burlington, Ontario, Canada
FD, your argument falls short right here - You are assuming the past will predict the future.

Up until NOW Nature HAS been able to handle cycles but that IS NOT PROOF it can do it this time.
Past behavior is only a guide of future behavior - AND ONLY if all the factors REMAIN CONSTANT.

It is not only that humankind added factors, that the RATE of change in one hundred years is extremely unusual over the last two million years, but that also we have CHANGED the normal COMPOSITION of the gases. Scientists have shown that the radiative forcing levels are clearly outside of the natural cycle range at this point in time.

I think maybe scientists are smart enough to include natural Milankovitch cycles along with what happens after volcanos erupt, or what the variations are in severe weather which are caused by the normal effects of such things as the El Nino and La Nina ocean currents, along with the pages and pages of charts of other earth/sun/oceans factors and interrelationships as they plug in the variables to their models.

(Even Lotje and I realize there are natural cycles that must be considered before abnormal changes are considered. Whistle "Think horses first - not zebras" is a good axiom but sometimes they ARE zebras.)

The vast increase in gases and temperature is beyond what has ever been seen in nature because mankind was not contributing to them much UNTIL the Industrial Revolution and Nature is now having trouble overcoming the EXTRA burden humankind has added.


We climate change believers certainly DO NOT have the right to demand that denialists believe as we do. Denialist is an accurate term - I don’t know what other one to use that is as descriptive. NOR do we have the right to call them “Rightists” or other terms meant in a derogatory way because of their beliefs.

BUT, since we all share the earth, we DO have the right to demand that we ALL take good of care of it. Burning dirty fuels fouls the air we all breathe and contributes to many deaths world wide. That is NOT in dispute and is a very related issue.

Our little discussions don’t really matter anyhow, because private enterprise has already moved forward and has developed new green industries, and in a capitalistic economy, “supply and demand” is king. The world has moved on.


Lay-person denialists are on the side of 0.021 % of scientists - 5 papers out of 24,210 in 2013 and 2014. Not odds I would bet on at the horse races. :)

There are articles that say that in any other country the Republican Party would only be a fringe party. “At the same time, a 2015 paper found that the Republican Party stands alone as the only major political party in the world that rejects the need to address climate change…an untenable long-term position. Climate denial caters to a small and dwindling population of old, white, conservative, American men.” (And oil is mentioned as the cause for the American numbers of denialists being as high as they are.)

"But American acceptance of and concern about human-caused climate change is currently at record levels, and is certain to keep rising in the long-term.” "Bulletin of the Atomic Scientists"

Also the young around the world are accepting the need for the world to change in their practices concerning the environment in many ways. They see the advantages of clean air and water, the better economics of fuel efficient cars, and the freedom of not being beholden to countries such as the Saudis for energy.

A smile is a curve that sets everything straight. Phyllis Diller
FounDit
Posted: Sunday, June 18, 2017 8:52:02 PM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 9/19/2011
Posts: 8,306
Neurons: 44,413
Hope123 wrote:

FD, your argument falls short right here - You are assuming the past will predict the future.
With one very big difference — evidence proves the climate is cyclical. You climate change believers think any current change runs in a straight line until doom, a position that has no evidence whatsoever.

Up until NOW Nature HAS been able to handle cycles but that IS NOT PROOF it can do it this time. And you have NO PROOF that it cannot.
Past behavior is only a guide of future behavior - AND ONLY if all the factors REMAIN CONSTANT. And that is the flaw in your belief system, and where your argument falls short, because nothing remains the same forever, not even temperature change.

It is not only that humankind added factors, that the RATE of change in one hundred years is extremely unusual over the last two million years, but that also we have CHANGED the normal COMPOSITION of the gases. Scientists have shown that the radiative forcing levels are clearly outside of the natural cycle range at this point in time. No! Really? Which scientists? How many? Another 97%?

I think maybe scientists are smart enough to include natural Milankovitch cycles along with what happens after volcanos erupt, or what the variations are in severe weather which are caused by the normal effects of such things as the El Nino and La Nina ocean currents, along with the pages and pages of charts of other earth/sun/oceans factors and interrelationships as they plug in the variables to their models. Well, if you think it, then it must be true! I may have to re-think the whole thing now that I’ve been informed by philips daughter that water and air are climate. How did I miss that? Why did no one tell me? The acumen of climate believers continues to amaze me.

(Even Lotje and I realize there are natural cycles that must be considered before abnormal changes are considered. "Think horses first - not zebras" is a good axiom but sometimes they ARE zebras.) Oh, wow! Both you and Lotje had this realization? I’m overwhelmed, and out voted. I’ll certainly have to give this the consideration it deserves.

The vast increase in gases and temperature is beyond what has ever been seen in nature because mankind was not contributing to them much UNTIL the Industrial Revolution and Nature is now having trouble overcoming the EXTRA burden humankind has added. Really? How do you know this? Did nature tell you that? And all the advances we’ve made in technology have made no difference? The air quality over L.A. is just as bad as it ever was? Our rivers and streams are just as dirty as they ever were? We are doomed to never improve!!?? OH, EM, GEE!

We climate change believers certainly DO NOT have the right to demand that denialists believe as we do. And yet you climate change believers do.
Denialist is an accurate term - I don’t know what other one to use that is as descriptive. The word “skeptic” comes to mind, as well as “questioning”, or “open to more evidence”.
NOR do we have the right to call them “Rightists” or other terms meant in a derogatory way because of their beliefs. And yet the accusations are made daily.

BUT, since we all share the earth, we DO have the right to demand that we ALL take good of care of it. Burning dirty fuels fouls the air we all breathe and contributes to many deaths world wide. That is NOT in dispute and is a very related issue. I agree that we should take good care of the Earth. The question that remains in my mind is: Don’t we ALL get a say in the matter? And if some of us hold a different opinion, shouldn’t that opinion be just as valid as that of anyone else since no absolute conclusion has been reached as yet? And is it not possible that technological advances may be made that will solve the problems? And why is it that only the most advanced countries that have done the most in this regard are held to such strict standards while other countries that do little about it are permitted to contribute the major portion of polluting? Does no one see a double standard here but us?

Our little discussions don’t really matter anyhow, because private enterprise has already moved forward and has developed new green industries, and in a capitalistic economy, “supply and demand” is king. The world has moved on.
Well, it is trying to, but the political Left has chained concrete boots to its ankles with its demands. And these new green industries cannot provide the energy needs of our nation, so must be subsidized. A very great number of them have already gone bankrupt, wasting billions of taxpayers dollars. And how much "dirty oil" does it take to manufacture windmills and solar panels? Windmills and solar panels can't even make enough energy to create more of the same. This is evident simply because they are manufactured in plants whose energy comes from oil.

Lay-person denialists are on the side of 0.021 % of scientists - 5 papers out of 24,210 in 2013 and 2014. Not odds I would bet on at the horse races. :)
Wow! 5 papers out of more than 24,000 in two years? That's certainly, umm...well, very underwhelming to say the least.

There are articles that say that in any other country the Republican Party would only be a fringe party. “At the same time, a 2015 paper found that the Republican Party stands alone as the only major political party in the world that rejects the need to address climate change…an untenable long-term position. Climate denial caters to a small and dwindling population of old, white, conservative, American men.” (And oil is mentioned as the cause for the American numbers of denialists being as high as they are.)

"But American acceptance of and concern about human-caused climate change is currently at record levels, and is certain to keep rising in the long-term.” "Bulletin of the Atomic Scientists"
And here we get to the real enemy of the climate change political movement. It's the fault of the Republican Party and old, white, conservative American men. It has nothing to do with the environment. And I wouldn't bet on acceptance of the belief continuing to rise in the long-term, just as I wouldn't bet on the temperature to continue rising either.

Also the young around the world are accepting the need for the world to change in their practices concerning the environment in many ways. They see the advantages of clean air and water, the better economics of fuel efficient cars, and the freedom of not being beholden to countries such as the Saudis for energy. It is true that the Left has been very successful at propagandizing and brainwashing the young, convincing them they are all going to die, along with the planet. I’ve done what I can to counter that foolishness with my own children and grandchildren. Hopefully, as the political pendulum swings back again towards the Right, we can undo much of that with common sense and reason; along with technological advancements that will reveal that the impending death of the planet was all nonsense to start with. After all, according to the all-knowing Climate prophets like Al Gore, we are all supposed to have died already.





A great many people will think they are thinking when they are merely rearranging their prejudices. ~ William James ~
Drag0nspeaker
Posted: Monday, June 19, 2017 12:07:20 AM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 9/12/2011
Posts: 27,246
Neurons: 151,094
Location: Livingston, Scotland, United Kingdom




Wyrd bið ful aræd - bull!
Hope123
Posted: Monday, June 19, 2017 1:14:51 AM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 3/23/2015
Posts: 7,279
Neurons: 42,042
Location: Burlington, Ontario, Canada
FounDit wrote:
Hope123 wrote:

FD, your argument falls short right here - You are assuming the past will predict the future.
With one very big difference — evidence proves the climate is cyclical. You climate change believers think any current change runs in a straight line until doom, a position that has no evidence whatsoever.

Where did you get the proof that climate is cyclical? Might it have been scientists whose work you believe? It’s called cherry picking when you pick and choose the parts you want to believe and eschew the rest. And there is plenty of evidence about anthropogenic climate change - you and your skeptic ilk just choose to ignore it. Doom? Sensationalism!


Up until NOW Nature HAS been able to handle cycles but that IS NOT PROOF it can do it this time. And you have NO PROOF that it cannot.
Past behavior is only a guide of future behavior - AND ONLY if all the factors REMAIN CONSTANT. And that is the flaw in your belief system, and where your argument falls short, because nothing remains the same forever, not even temperature change.


Really? Seems as if the inherent characteristic of temperature is that it changes and that will remain the same forever. Whistle Whistle Whistle

It is not only that humankind added factors, that the RATE of change in one hundred years is extremely unusual over the last two million years, but that also we have CHANGED the normal COMPOSITION of the gases. Scientists have shown that the radiative forcing levels are clearly outside of the natural cycle range at this point in time. No! Really? Which scientists? How many? Another 97%?


The climate change experts whose work you believed until it did not suit your political ideology. The ones with acumen.

I think maybe scientists are smart enough to include natural Milankovitch cycles along with what happens after volcanos erupt, or what the variations are in severe weather which are caused by the normal effects of such things as the El Nino and La Nina ocean currents, along with the pages and pages of charts of other earth/sun/oceans factors and interrelationships as they plug in the variables to their models. Well, if you think it, then it must be true! I may have to re-think the whole thing now that I’ve been informed by philips daughter that water and air are climate. How did I miss that? Why did no one tell me? The acumen of climate believers continues to amaze me.

Well thank you! I will not return the compliment.


(Even Lotje and I realize there are natural cycles that must be considered before abnormal changes are considered. "Think horses first - not zebras" is a good axiom but sometimes they ARE zebras.) Oh, wow! Both you and Lotje had this realization? I’m overwhelmed, and out voted. I’ll certainly have to give this the consideration it deserves.


When I said horses and zebras I should have added that there are asses too.

The vast increase in gases and temperature is beyond what has ever been seen in nature because mankind was not contributing to them much UNTIL the Industrial Revolution and Nature is now having trouble overcoming the EXTRA burden humankind has added. Really? How do you know this? Did nature tell you that? And all the advances we’ve made in technology have made no difference? The air quality over L.A. is just as bad as it ever was? Our rivers and streams are just as dirty as they ever were? We are doomed to never improve!!?? OH, EM, GEE!


They improved because of Obama's regulations that your present idiot president just rescinded. Even the governors are protesting the money taken out of protecting the Great Lakes so he can build your precious wall.


We climate change believers certainly DO NOT have the right to demand that denialists believe as we do. And yet you climate change believers do.
Denialist is an accurate term - I don’t know what other one to use that is as descriptive. The word “skeptic” comes to mind, as well as “questioning”, or “open to more evidence”.
NOR do we have the right to call them “Rightists” or other terms meant in a derogatory way because of their beliefs. And yet the accusations are made daily.


You must read and listen to the wrong media.


BUT, since we all share the earth, we DO have the right to demand that we ALL take good of care of it. Burning dirty fuels fouls the air we all breathe and contributes to many deaths world wide. That is NOT in dispute and is a very related issue. I agree that we should take good care of the Earth. The question that remains in my mind is: Don’t we ALL get a say in the matter? And if some of us hold a different opinion, shouldn’t that opinion be just as valid as that of anyone else since no absolute conclusion has been reached as yet? And is it not possible that technological advances may be made that will solve the problems?

You just admitted that humans can make a difference and that is exactly what we are asking for - innovations with solutions

And why is it that only the most advanced countries that have done the most in this regard are held to such strict standards while other countries that do little about it are permitted to contribute the major portion of polluting? Does no one see a double standard here but us?



All BS.

Which advanced countries have done the most? Finland? Sweden? Only since 2010 has the US even tried. Canada has not done her share either. We’re both at the bottom of the list. Since the advanced countries did all the damage while they were developing, why should countries just developing now not get some break while they develop? Anyhow, China and the US are now the two biggest polluters and China is working on carbon pricing and renewable energy support already while the US FEDS just walked away.

Here is a list of positive results showing GDP CAN GROW while emissions decrease so I don’t know why you are so afraid of it.

http://www.wri.org/blog/2016/04/roads-decoupling-21-countries-are-reducing-carbon-emissions-while-growing-gdp


Who was holding whom to strict standards where? Paris Accord? That was voluntary.

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2017/06/01/climate/us-biggest-carbon-polluter-in-history-will-it-walk-away-from-the-paris-climate-deal.html

The charts on the link above superimposing larger US emissions in comparison to the rest of the world show exactly how much the US has contributed to emissions historically. The double standard you are talking about is done by the US.





Our little discussions don’t really matter anyhow, because private enterprise has already moved forward and has developed new green industries, and in a capitalistic economy, “supply and demand” is king. The world has moved on.
Well, it is trying to, but the political Left has chained concrete boots to its ankles with its demands. And these new green industries cannot provide the energy needs of our nation, so must be subsidized. A very great number of them have already gone bankrupt, wasting billions of taxpayers dollars. And how much "dirty oil" does it take to manufacture windmills and solar panels? Windmills and solar panels can't even make enough energy to create more of the same. This is evident simply because they are manufactured in plants whose energy comes from oil.

Lay-person denialists are on the side of 0.021 % of scientists - 5 papers out of 24,210 in 2013 and 2014. Not odds I would bet on at the horse races. :)
Wow! 5 papers out of more than 24,000 in two years? That's certainly, umm...well, very underwhelming to say the least.


Yes. Very underwhelming and not very astute to be on that side of it.


There are articles that say that in any other country the Republican Party would only be a fringe party. “At the same time, a 2015 paper found that the Republican Party stands alone as the only major political party in the world that rejects the need to address climate change…an untenable long-term position. Climate denial caters to a small and dwindling population of old, white, conservative, American men.” (And oil is mentioned as the cause for the American numbers of denialists being as high as they are.)

"But American acceptance of and concern about human-caused climate change is currently at record levels, and is certain to keep rising in the long-term.” "Bulletin of the Atomic Scientists"
And here we get to the real enemy of the climate change political movement. It's the fault of the Republican Party and old, white, conservative American men. It has nothing to do with the environment. And I wouldn't bet on acceptance of the belief continuing to rise in the long-term, just as I wouldn't bet on the temperature to continue rising either.

Also the young around the world are accepting the need for the world to change in their practices concerning the environment in many ways. They see the advantages of clean air and water, the better economics of fuel efficient cars, and the freedom of not being beholden to countries such as the Saudis for energy. It is true that the Left has been very successful at propagandizing and brainwashing the young, convincing them they are all going to die, along with the planet. I’ve done what I can to counter that foolishness with my own children and grandchildren. Hopefully, as the political pendulum swings back again towards the Right, we can undo much of that with common sense and reason; along with technological advancements that will reveal that the impending death of the planet was all nonsense to start with. After all, according to the all-knowing Climate prophets like Al Gore, we are all supposed to have died already.


Sensationalism at its best.






Responding to any sarcasm with sarcasm was fun. But not a habit I wish to continue any time soon.



A smile is a curve that sets everything straight. Phyllis Diller
Hope123
Posted: Monday, June 19, 2017 1:20:05 AM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 3/23/2015
Posts: 7,279
Neurons: 42,042
Location: Burlington, Ontario, Canada
Pictures really are worth a thousand words, Drago. And a lot easier to post!

I think the Scottish games should be coming up soon in Fergus, Ontario. If I recall correctly they hold them every summer. Bagpipes anyone?

Edited - Yup. https://fergusscottishfestival.com

I should not have doubted they'd have them this year in particular when this year is our 150th anniversary coming up. And I see they are going greener by providing a water truck and water filling stations. So BYOB - but this time it's for water. Whistle

A smile is a curve that sets everything straight. Phyllis Diller
Users browsing this topic
Guest


Forum Jump
You cannot post new topics in this forum.
You cannot reply to topics in this forum.
You cannot delete your posts in this forum.
You cannot edit your posts in this forum.
You cannot create polls in this forum.
You cannot vote in polls in this forum.

Main Forum RSS : RSS
Forum Terms and Guidelines. Copyright © 2008-2017 Farlex, Inc. All rights reserved.