|
|
Rank: Advanced Member
Joined: 5/23/2010
Posts: 111
Points: 326
Location: Toronto
|
Most religions don't simply require you to believe that God exists. They require you to make sacrifices, and adhere to rules. Not just the ordinary ones needed to be a moral/ successful/ happy person in everyday life, either. Religions typically require significant sacrifices, and obedience to strict rules, that can seriously interfere with happiness, success, even morality. Religions require people to donate money; participate in rituals; spend time in houses of worship; follow rules about what to eat, what to wear, what drugs to avoid, who to have sex with and how. Religions require people to cut off their foreskins. Cut off their clitorises. Cut off ties with their gay children. Dress modestly. Suppress their sexuality. Reject evolution. Reject blood transfusions. (For themselves, and their children.) Refuse to consider interfaith marriage. Refuse to consider interfaith friendship. Memorize a long stretch of religious text and recite it in public at age thirteen. Spend their weekends knocking on strangers' doors, pestering them to join the faith. Donate money to fix the church roof. Donate money to send bibles to Nicaragua. Donate money so the preacher can buy a Cadillac. Have as many children as they physically can. Disown their children if they leave the faith. Obey their husbands without question. Not eat pork. Not get tattoos. Get up early to sit in church once a week, on one of only two days a week they have off. Cover their bodies from head to toe. Treat people as unclean who were born into different castes. Treat women as sinners if they have sex outside marriage. Beat or kill their wives and daughters if they have sex outside marriage. Etc. Etc. Etc. God doesn't care whether we worship him in exactly the right way. Or indeed whether we worship him at all. As long as we treat each other well, according to our best understanding of right and wrong, God will be happy with us. 
|
|
Rank: Advanced Member
Joined: 9/21/2009
Posts: 19,927
Points: 59,790
Location: Helsinki, Finland
|
Why not give the source when copy/pasting? http://www.alternet.org/belief/149920/why_it%27s_not_a_%27safe_bet%27_to_believe_in_god/?page=entire
I don't know half of you half as well as I should like; and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve.
|
|
Rank: Advanced Member
Joined: 4/10/2009
Posts: 102
Points: 295
Location: North Finland.
|
Hi JJ, thanks about an interesting link.
Praise a child once a day, let alone your spouse. (and see what happens)
|
|
Rank: Advanced Member
Joined: 1/18/2010
Posts: 1,197
Points: 3,275
Location: United Kingdom
|
I'm not sure why you posted Teluu!
Were you looking for a debate on the proposition, or making a statement of your own views so that we knew where you stood.?
My answer is a firm "No" - if it was a question. If it wasn't then my answer would naturally be "yes" - or something in between. maybe, possibly on the other hand .
"The voice of the majority is no proof of justice." - Schiller
|
|
Rank: Advanced Member
Joined: 7/8/2010
Posts: 4,264
Points: 12,760
Location: iceland
|
I am not a religious person, and although I appreciate the social aspect of religions, I have a problem with the evils that organised religions sometimes do. But this forum seems attact some religion bashing, it almost makes me want to stick up for them. Posts which are just rants, or not open for debate, are pointless. We need a bit less bile and a bit more discussion.
|
|
Rank: Advanced Member
Joined: 7/6/2010
Posts: 1,214
Points: 3,601
Location: United States
|
The scriptures say this about true religion, "Pure and genuine religion in the sight of God the Father means caring for orphans and widows in their distress and refusing to let the world corrupt you". James 1:27.
|
|
Rank: Advanced Member
Joined: 2/13/2010
Posts: 3,098
Points: 9,315
Location: United States
|
Nope. Man invented religion. God simply is.
"Be without fear in the face of your enemies. Be brave and upright that God may love thee. Speak the truth always, even if it leads to your death. Safeguard the helpless, and do no wrong". (Knight's Oath, Kingdom of Heaven)
|
|
Rank: Advanced Member
Joined: 5/23/2010
Posts: 111
Points: 326
Location: Toronto
|
|
|
Rank: Advanced Member
Joined: 1/18/2010
Posts: 1,197
Points: 3,275
Location: United Kingdom
|
What argument? As I said, you just posted something. What do you think?
"The voice of the majority is no proof of justice." - Schiller
|
|
Rank: Advanced Member
Joined: 5/23/2010
Posts: 111
Points: 326
Location: Toronto
|
intelfam wrote:What argument? As I said, you just posted something. What do you think? C'mon! Dont be negative.
|
|
Rank: Advanced Member
Joined: 12/28/2009
Posts: 2,466
Points: 7,414
Location: the city by the bay
|
Teluu wrote:Most religions don't simply require you to believe that God exists. They require you to make sacrifices, and adhere to rules. Not just the ordinary ones needed to be a moral/ successful/ happy person in everyday life, either. Religions typically require significant sacrifices, and obedience to strict rules, that can seriously interfere with happiness, success, even morality. Religions require people to donate money; participate in rituals; spend time in houses of worship; follow rules about what to eat, what to wear, what drugs to avoid, who to have sex with and how. Religions require people to cut off their foreskins. Cut off their clitorises. Cut off ties with their gay children. Dress modestly. Suppress their sexuality. Reject evolution. Reject blood transfusions. (For themselves, and their children.) Refuse to consider interfaith marriage. Refuse to consider interfaith friendship. Memorize a long stretch of religious text and recite it in public at age thirteen. Spend their weekends knocking on strangers' doors, pestering them to join the faith. Donate money to fix the church roof. Donate money to send bibles to Nicaragua. Donate money so the preacher can buy a Cadillac. Have as many children as they physically can. Disown their children if they leave the faith. Obey their husbands without question. Not eat pork. Not get tattoos. Get up early to sit in church once a week, on one of only two days a week they have off. Cover their bodies from head to toe. Treat people as unclean who were born into different castes. Treat women as sinners if they have sex outside marriage. Beat or kill their wives and daughters if they have sex outside marriage. Etc. Etc. Etc. God doesn't care whether we worship him in exactly the right way. Or indeed whether we worship him at all. As long as we treat each other well, according to our best understanding of right and wrong, God will be happy with us. So, although you posted the OP title as a question and indeed have questions in the body of your writings......... You just wanted to make a statement? This is how I am understanding your response to those who have posted on the thread.
There are many religions in the world. The Christian religion is but a small part. The above laws/cannons of which you reference are part of "organized religion."
If you wish to speak to god. Walk out your door at night and admire the sunset or the early morning sunrise. Look at the birds in the bushes and the flowers and all the beautiful colours they are. Even the many weeds are beautiful.
God is what you make of him and how you choose to treat others and in turn want to be treated.
peace out, >^,,^<
The poor object to being governed badly, whilst the rich object to being governed at all. G.K. Chesterton
|
|
Rank: Advanced Member
Joined: 4/23/2011
Posts: 160
Points: 462
Location: Bosnia and Herzegovina
|
Teluu, please name those religions to us.
|
|
Rank: Advanced Member
Joined: 6/30/2010
Posts: 5,711
Points: 17,072
Location: Canada
|
Of course he doesn't. Other things he doesn't care about : Vestments, chalices, albs, hassocks, naves, apses, transepts, altars, censers, pattens, mitres, berettas, triptychs, rood screens, icons, indulgences, bulls, encyclicals and Conrad Black. Are we done here ?
Sanity is not statistical
|
|
Rank: Advanced Member
Joined: 9/11/2009
Posts: 941
Points: 2,924
|
excaelis wrote:Of course he doesn't. Other things he doesn't care about : Vestments, chalices, albs, hassocks, naves, apses, transepts, altars, censers, pattens, mitres, berettas, triptychs, rood screens, icons, indulgences, bulls, encyclicals and Conrad Black. Are we done here ? I had never heard of Conrad Black, but now I've done the search I am more informed. Thanks excaelis, for an interesting diversion. So what do you care about, GOD?[He knows we are discussing Him.]
Job 33:15 "In a dream, in a vision of the night, When deep sleep falls upon men, In slumberings upon the bed;" Theology 101 "If He doesn't know everything then He isn't God."
|
|
Rank: Advanced Member
Joined: 5/25/2009
Posts: 680
Points: 2,050
Location: Your keyboard. (USA)
|
Does your mom care if you never take a bath? Does your dad care if you drive his car past the carport and into the bedroom? Does your doctor care if you smoke? Does your teacher care if you never show up for class?
Should God care what people do as they proclaim, "I'm a Christian. (or whatever) This is how I worship God. So what that I interpret scripture to give me the freedom to extort money from poor people. So what if I believe that God has given me license to abuse the children in my care. So what if I view women as objects to be subjected to any treatment that I see fit. I'm a Christian (or whatever) and as long as I keep saying that I believe in God, he'll back me up."
Should God care what people do in his name? Would you care if anybody pasted your name anywhere and everywhere to take the blame off of themselves - and stick it on you?
Yes he cares. Throughout the Bible God expresses his feelings when those he chose to represent him went their own way, doing their own thing while still claiming his backing. Israel was his chosen nation at one time. They failed miserably and as a result he let them go their own way - removing his name from them so that anything further they would do, they do in the name of whatever they call "god".
Dreamy, you're right. He does listen. (Malachi 3:16-18)
|
|
Rank: Advanced Member
Joined: 10/2/2009
Posts: 1,546
Points: 4,705
Location: United States
|
26letters wrote:Does your mom care if you never take a bath? Does your dad care if you drive his car past the carport and into the bedroom? Does your doctor care if you smoke? Does your teacher care if you never show up for class? See, this is the fundamental fault of religion, and a great example of why God does not actually care about religion. God is NOT your mother, father, a doctor or a teacher. God is a Creator, which is an entirely different, and alien concept. Religions attempt to reduce God into a sort of proto-human with very human goals and interests. I'll not speculate much on why that might be... but it's safe to say that doing so has more to do with the origins of religion in ancestor worship and the effectiveness of such a method in controlling people. God is not interested in religion. Religion is a construction of humans that, at best, God finds rather amusing and strange. Christians actually worship a statue of a man on a cross, despite specific commandments (albeit man-made ones) not to do so. Some Jews grow funky curly cue hair tassles based on a misreading of another passage. Buddhists, despite their views on materialism, construct massive temples that are at essentially and primarily materialist. Muslims regularly ignore their own text in favor of a political reading that justifies any number of modern concepts. The interesting thing about religion is how quickly it turns into a system of contradiction and hypocrisy. That, of course, has to do with how effectively it can be used to control people. After all, if worshippers are ALWAYS wrong then they can ALWAYS be told what to do in order to correct their faults. In any case, it's safe to say that God is above such things. ("Above" in the sense of "beyond" not "up" in heaven....) God probably looks at the way people manifest their spiritual feelings into religious dogma and is dismayed. I lot of the time, though, I suspect God is entertained by the hilarity of millions of people pointed their butts to the sky to bow down to Him. In general, I think He's probably more dismayed by the speed with which people get it all wrong....
|
|
Rank: Advanced Member
Joined: 1/18/2010
Posts: 1,197
Points: 3,275
Location: United Kingdom
|
thar wrote:I am not a religious person, and although I appreciate the social aspect of religions, I have a problem with the evils that organised religions sometimes do. But this forum seems attact some religion bashing, it almost makes me want to stick up for them. Posts which are just rants, or not open for debate, are pointless. We need a bit less bile and a bit more discussion. I stand with thar. Although I do not subscribe to any of the major organised religions, I wrote at length, what I consider to be, a thoughtful (although not necessarily correct in all aspects) reply to Dreamy's and 26letters' posts. OK, I don't agree with them but I thought we would have some useful discussion. I felt sure I would get thoughtful replies form those posters - and I still feel that about them. I scrapped it. I realised that the subject summons up the devils of parody and stereotypical statement which could possess some discussants, particularly those who can't hack grey areas. I felt I couldn't take the responsibility for their falling into sin. Are we ever to have a reasoned, informed discussion on this subject, I wonder. It would be nice to agree to differ, preferably, on the basis of calm, informed argument.
"The voice of the majority is no proof of justice." - Schiller
|
|
Rank: Advanced Member
Joined: 5/27/2011
Posts: 5,376
Points: 15,898
Location: Germany
|
Does God even care about religion?
I've just asked her. She said 'No'.
"Before I speak, I have something important to say."Groucho Marx
|
|
Rank: Advanced Member
Joined: 1/18/2010
Posts: 1,197
Points: 3,275
Location: United Kingdom
|
IMcRout wrote:Does God even care about religion?
I've just asked her. She said 'No'. She's really fickle, she said "maybe" when I asked her
"The voice of the majority is no proof of justice." - Schiller
|
|
Rank: Advanced Member
Joined: 4/22/2011
Posts: 1,104
Points: 3,054
Location: Japan
|
Isn't God "He"? and Goddess "She"?
|
|
Rank: Advanced Member
Joined: 5/27/2011
Posts: 5,376
Points: 15,898
Location: Germany
|
Ask him! She's omniscient.
"Before I speak, I have something important to say."Groucho Marx
|
|
Rank: Advanced Member
Joined: 5/25/2009
Posts: 680
Points: 2,050
Location: Your keyboard. (USA)
|
Geeman Posted: Sunday, July 10, 2011 3:48:10 PM
See, this is the fundamental fault of religion, and a great example of why God does not actually care about religion. God is NOT your mother, father, a doctor or a teacher. God is a Creator, which is an entirely different, and alien concept.
Religions attempt to reduce God into a sort of proto-human with very human goals and interests. I'll not speculate much on why that might be... but it's safe to say that doing so has more to do with the origins of religion in ancestor worship and the effectiveness of such a method in controlling people.
God is not interested in religion. Religion is a construction of humans that, at best, God finds rather amusing and strange. Christians actually worship a statue of a man on a cross, despite specific commandments (albeit man-made ones) not to do so. Some Jews grow funky curly cue hair tassles based on a misreading of another passage. Buddhists, despite their views on materialism, construct massive temples that are at essentially and primarily materialist. Muslims regularly ignore their own text in favor of a political reading that justifies any number of modern concepts.
The interesting thing about religion is how quickly it turns into a system of contradiction and hypocrisy. That, of course, has to do with how effectively it can be used to control people. After all, if worshippers are ALWAYS wrong then they can ALWAYS be told what to do in order to correct their faults.
In any case, it's safe to say that God is above such things. ("Above" in the sense of "beyond" not "up" in heaven....) God probably looks at the way people manifest their spiritual feelings into religious dogma and is dismayed. I lot of the time, though, I suspect God is entertained by the hilarity of millions of people pointed their butts to the sky to bow down to Him. In general, I think He's probably more dismayed by the speed with which people get it all wrong....
26letters writes: Thanks Geeman, I always appreciate your input. You're right. God is not something to be simplified into the basic constructs that we know. But the fact is, God is something that we (finite creatures, made of physical elements that we have not even completely identified;) cannot comprehend. So he describes himself as a father and used anthropomorphic use of imagery so that we can understand how he wants us to view him.
He knows human nature. Do you think that he would not know that humans have a tendency to want to be the center of the universe? Humans want to rule their domain; whether it's a house, a neighborhood, a high school, a town, a city, a state, a country, the whole world - of even by-pass all that and rule their minds, whatever. "Religion" can be one of those facets used just the same as ... politics, media, peer pressure, fear ... (um, I'm still thinking). Anyway, you get the idea. God knows that his resources will be abused and so he makes sure that with absolute certainty a person will find the truth - if "truth" is what they want. (If they're only fooling themselves, forget it!)
It may seem that religion was invented by humans, but it wasn't - at least not originally. (It didn't take long for humans to learn how to USE it.) How else could an invisible God compel physical creatures to want to reach out to him, but to also create a spiritual need in them. Fulfilling that spiritual need brings us so much closer to happiness, than ignoring it - much like ignoring our physical needs only makes us more frustrated.
Matthew 5:3 "Happy are those conscious of their spiritual need ..." NWT
Matthew 5:3 "How blest are those who know their need of God;" NEB
Happiness comes as a result of having your need filled. (as verse 6 says, in fact all of the "beatitudes" reveal that happiness will be found in one's search for truth, because it's all there - to found in the Bible.) Filling your physical needs satisfies for an hour, maybe less, maybe more - but satisfying your spiritual needs lasts a lifetime.
In reading your post, "I suspect God is entertained by the hilarity of millions of people pointed their butts to the sky to bow down to Him." No, there are truly sincere people who worship God in the only way that they know. He will never laugh at them as they try. Instead, he will make sure that they are able to find out exactly how to worship him in a way that he approves. These people deserve to know. They don't deserve derision.
We have faith in God - He has faith in us.
|
|
Rank: Advanced Member
Joined: 1/18/2010
Posts: 1,197
Points: 3,275
Location: United Kingdom
|
almostfreebird wrote:Isn't God "He"? and Goddess "She"?
I was interested (but not enough to write it down, unfortunately) to hear that the "original" Judaic religion did have a female aspect to God, and they were worshipped as two separate entities, (whatever the theologians of the day might have said about two persons, one substance - or other mind twisting concepts) I must look it up if I can. The Jewish (proto-christian, as the early church claimed) religious views of god/godess/breath of god at or just before the time of Jesus, bear remarkable differences from the god of the christian church as Paul decided, being in the Greek tradition. Many moons ago, I delved into Jewish "theology" out of interest. One certainly gets a different view.
"The voice of the majority is no proof of justice." - Schiller
|
|
|
Guest |