I am interested in knowing and understanding the world as completely as possible.As part of this I intend to understand the human mind.So how does one go about doing this?Is it possible to completely describe the mind in one given lifetime starting now using science,will philosophy or religion give satisfactory explanations or is going through life the only way to do this...gradually and to the extent that one man can in his lifetime?

I guess that, if it is your mind you want to understand, then yup, you got to live with it for a long, long, time

Otherwise, learn/take some general psychology, cook it for a few years in a philosophy cooker to pasteurise it, watch your fellow humans and ask why they do things, do the same thing about your own actions. Then sadly, like me, you will look over your shoulder and realise that you have wasted most of your life thinking, planning ahead and reviewing the past - and you missed the whole fantastic and entertaining show. That's about the best I can do. I, like pedro, wish you luck.

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"The voice of the majority is no proof of justice." - Schiller

To understand anything at all you need an idea about truth,––what it is and isn't and how to get it––philosophy is a discourse that can help you with that (keywords: epistemology, empiricism, evidence, science, a priori and a posteriori, brain in a vat).

Then to focus on the mind you might read some broad, popular, scientific, philosophical and scientifically philosophical literature (including psychological literature) to get an overview of all the mind-related ideas out there. Then hone in on what interests you and read ever more expert stuff. (Cognitive science is a good term to google.)

Lastly: experience and observe things.

My bet is that science is going to tell us very much about the mind in the next 100 years but that doesn't quite acquit you of taking an interest in what has been done and said in this area in the past millennia. Though, like intelfam said, you may come to conclude that you've done to much thinking and too little living. Nevertheless: good luck.

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The opposite of hatred is love; the opposite of tyranny is love; the opposite of censorship is love; the opposite of evil is love; the opposite of politics is love; the opposite of war is love; the opposite of god is love.–– Salman Rushdie
Broadly speaking, it is held that getting money is good and spending money is bad. Seeing that they are two sides of one transaction, this is absurd; one might as well maintain that keys are good, but keyholes are bad. Whatever merit there may be in the production of goods must be entirely derivative from the advantage to be obtained by consuming them. –Bertrand Russell
Never believe a liar. Papa, angry people burn our home.

Judging by many I meet ( specially the ones in cars ) astronomy is probably the best approach ; a vacuum of empty space inhabited by balls of gas and the occasional lump of dirt.

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Sanity is not statistical

Valuable acronym Dreamy - is it your own? 'Cause if it is I shall use it with due credit to you.

Your no. 2 "Be open-minded but filter out the harmful material that tries to enter" gets me thinking. This is really hard to do. Would you be willing to add a (2a)? Something like, "...and ask yourself why you label it harmful ". I only ask because we may fall into a trap in initially labelling something and, having done so, sabotage ourselves from re-examining it later - to see whether the label itself were harmful. Dunno, just thinking of some folk I know who do just that and seem to throw the baby out with the bathwater?

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"The voice of the majority is no proof of justice." - Schiller

Off line if you like Romany, but I'd be interested in knowing a little more about which techniques you use? If it's public, then a topic?

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"The voice of the majority is no proof of justice." - Schiller

intelfam wrote:

Dreamy wrote:

here are three rules to follow.

1. Do not believe everything your mind tells you. The mind can be very deceptive.

2. Be open-minded but filter out the harmful material that tries to enter.

3. Guard your mind against these four methods of control using the acronym DIMS:

D. DOMINATION
I. INTIMIDATION
M. MANIPULATION
S. SEDUCTION

A mind that is healthy, wealthy, and wise is of great value. How to achieve this state of mind is our challenge.

Valuable acronym Dreamy - is it your own? 'Cause if it is I shall use it with due credit to you.

Your no. 2 "Be open-minded but filter out the harmful material that tries to enter" gets me thinking. This is really hard to do. Would you be willing to add a (2a)? Something like, "...and ask yourself why you label it harmful ". I only ask because we may fall into a trap in initially labelling something and, having done so, sabotage ourselves from re-examining it later - to see whether the label itself were harmful. Dunno, just thinking of some folk I know who do just that and seem to throw the baby out with the bathwater?

Hi intelfam, [regarding your forum name, I'm thinking "intelligent and famous" or maybe "intelligence family", although operatives don't openly admit to being part of the latter.]

The DIMS acronym is my own - I use it widely in discussion groups and with individuals who have concerns about being controlled and coerced by misguided leaders, and as it is a memory device I am happy for others to benefit from its use so feel free to pass it on, no charge, intelfam.

The other side of the coin is BRIGHTENS:

B = Build up
R = Refresh
I = Inspire
G = Guide
H = Heal
T = Teach
E = Encourage
N = Nurse/Nurture
S = Serve

I take your point about being careful what we label as harmful. It is very hard for communities and governments to reach a consensus on this. It depends on the values and ethics embraced by the majority at the time.

On a personal level "One man's meat is another man's poison", so while I may rule horror movies off the menu others may habitually dine on them.

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Job 33:15 "In a dream, in a vision of the night, When deep sleep falls upon men, In slumberings upon the bed;" Theology 101 "If He doesn't know everything then He isn't God."

intelfam wrote:

Thank you for the info Dreamy. And for the licence to operate them. They are useful in secular as well as religious settings, which is where, I imagine, you use them most often.

You are right, intelfam.
The analogy to light works in both settings. I often hear from non-Christians, just in passing, about situations in which I can identify the type of control that is being used over them.

As you may be aware there are many cults that claim to be of Christian intent but having seduced people to join them they then gain control of their minds with a variety of techniques. This is sometimes called programming or brain-washing. Usually the victims are conditioned not to question the leader, who is, of course perfect and infallible. The intimidation and manipulation can even include witchcraft and dark occultic forces are brought into play.

People caught up in this sort of thing need sympathetic help to escape.

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Job 33:15 "In a dream, in a vision of the night, When deep sleep falls upon men, In slumberings upon the bed;" Theology 101 "If He doesn't know everything then He isn't God."

Intel - I just saw your post - our Summer Courses have begun here and we, also are "up to the back teeth" here. With work.

Was going to write this in a private but thought it better to make a public "disclaimer" as it were.

After I read your response and then re-read my post, I could see how anyone could be forgiven for thinking mine was some sort of disguised cry for help, or an oblique way of demanding sympathy or something else other than what it was.

The thing is: I now, at last, admit that I have led (am leading?) an extraordinary kind of life in which extraordinary things seem to happen. I often refrain from posting on certain topics because I can just imagine people thinking "Bloody 'ell, this woman must be about 140 years old to have had as many adventures and experiences as she claims".

Thing is: I have been on the move since the age of 3 weeks and so logic dictates that I have come into contact with more people, events, weird stuff, than people who live a more settled life. Also, have spent most of my life in strange places. Ergo, the things I have experienced probably amount to a whole lot more than many other people. In the context of all this, the fact that I have some personal blips - like being bi-polar - don't really count for all that much: just another thing in the long list of stuff that's my life.

The fact that I talk quite openly about my personal issues like rape, molestation, being a battered wife,homelessness, mental illness, might indeed look as though I am piling on the angst a bit. Nothing could be further from the truth.

First: I am convinced that the more people bring such things out in the open - de-mystify or 'normalise' them - the more it helps those who are suffering in silence and think they are alone in coping with such issues. I honestly don't feel any sense of shame or ebarrassment any more.

Second: I can see the sense in all of my experiences only if I find through them the opportunity to empathise with and communicate with my fellow beings on this planet.

Third: I can talk quite dispassionately about the me who went through things once they are over...by then I've often moved on so they are in a little box labelled "Papua New Guinea" or "South Africa" and taking them out and dusting them off is just like looking at old photos.

Last: - I don't play games. If I need help (as I did a while back and blatantly asked for it here on TFD) I don't approach it obliquely. I have an abhorrence of sympathy so don't have an agenda. I'm as totally matter of fact about "mind chatter" as I am about having a pimple on my chin. The fact that I often refer to what others think of as personal things is simply because it seemed apposite at the time.

OK, it might seem as though I've high-jacked this thread but I have wanted to say this for a while now, I think.

I'm really sorry if the way I express myself might, at times, cause others distress, shock or worry: it's not meant to. But I am honestly convinced that the more we bring things out in the open, discuss things people might think are taboo or shameful, the more chance there is of helping even one poor soul who might be going through stuff convinced they are utterly alone or freakish.

I have tried for most of my life to "fit in" and be ordinary. It was only last year that I finally realised that is never going to happen. We work with what we've got. That's all.

Before I read any further, I want to say that the thought didn't cross my mind. I am of the view that we are all sabotaged from living in the present moment by "mind chatter" - see my last post under "All men are adaptives". So am interested in any tachniques/articles/research which point to ways to avoid this.

Now I'll read on ......

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"The voice of the majority is no proof of justice." - Schiller

Intel - hope you got my PM in which I apologised for my rambling, and totally out-of-line post above.

I guess the summer heat and the increased workload etc. are getting to me: I had a bit of a brain-fart there.

Take no notice. And sorry for ganging agley.

Ray -
How very kind of you to post all this. I was feeling I'd made a big fool of myself, but now I know that at least two people are getting what I wrote, in the spirit in which it was written, I don't feel like quite such a muppet.

I really treaure your post and shall read it again a little later when I am at home. It made my day.

Thinking...appeal your fame...appeal your fame... the appeal of fame...appeal to fame...unpeel your fame...now that appeals to reason does it not?

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Job 33:15 "In a dream, in a vision of the night, When deep sleep falls upon men, In slumberings upon the bed;" Theology 101 "If He doesn't know everything then He isn't God."

Good, down to earth stuff Ray41 (BTW I hope you got that email sorted.

I am a bit like Romany in not wanting sympathy Ray41. Don't know why she doesn't but, for me the word means all that "Come here and let me hug you, mummy-make-it-all-better" sort of stuff. I s'pose it depends on the person. I prefer empathy which again, I define as "Shit man, that's bad" line. Some folk, seeing distress, can't resist "rescuing", trying to make things better, which I find, for me, is dis-empowering and patronising (?matronising?). It's like saying; you've had a bad time and on top of that you aren't capable of sorting it out Stand aside while I do it - aren't you useless?

All a matter of personal history/experience. Hope the OP is still watching - maybe when they understand the human mind they'll tell me why I react like that - probably the potty training ...

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"The voice of the majority is no proof of justice." - Schiller