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Canada is ready to play rough regarding tariffs. Options
progpen
Posted: Wednesday, April 26, 2017 10:12:56 AM

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http://money.cnn.com/2017/04/25/news/economy/trump-canada-tariffs/

Canada's Foreign Minister has responded to the 20% tariff hike imposed Monday night with a no-nonsense response. "We're nice guys: Politeness is something we believe is a national virtue, but it's not an accident that hockey is our national sport," Freeland noted.

Once again, the fights that the current administration pick will result in the US taxpayers getting screwed. "The big losers in the softwood lumber dispute are American consumers," Freeland argued. "This is going to cost middle-class Americans who want to buy a house a lot of money."

And also, the only people to come out the end of any of the current administration's tantrums are the lawyers. Freeland stopped short of saying Canada would retaliate with new tariffs against US exports to Canada. Instead, she pointed out that Canada has won every court case on lumber against the US, suggesting the tariffs would be challenged in court.

Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter. ― Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.
Hope123
Posted: Wednesday, April 26, 2017 11:16:02 PM

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It takes a lot to thoroughly piss off Canadians - but this strutting peacock has done it. It was all Mexico but now the wall is on hold. And China - but now he needs China for North Korea. Is there any country in the world he hasn't pissed off yet? (I see Mexico scored a trade victory over the United States on Tuesday in a tuna dispute.)

Softwood and dairy are not in NAFTA and have been contentious for two decades. But they usually quietly work it out. I guess Trump needs a distraction from the fact that he is set to give the wealthy the biggest tax grab ever.

He turned his attention to Canada over a letter from a Wisconsin dairy farmer. As usual Trump doesn't even have his facts straight about the dairy industry. The US produces far too much milk and even some Wisconsin farmers say it is not Canada's fault, that the US should be controlling production too. In fact the proportion of dairy trade is 5 to 1 in favor of the US.

The softwood industry in the US has not been harmed. The US subsidizes theirs but says because Canada's comes from crown land they can produce it more cheaply. The tariffs take time to work out and may not even happen when those in the know in the US softwood industry get working on it. They know what will happen to house prices, especially in California.

But in the meantime many Canadian jobs will be lost, our dollar dropped two cents in two days, our stock markets dropped, and investors are leaving.

Canada's ministers were already in China talking to them about trade in general and softwood in particular. Japan is talking about continuing the TPP without the US. Canada has a trade agreement signed with the EU. The provinces are starting to work out better trade agreements as well - that is why the milk problem bloomed.

Trump has also let it be known he may sign an executive order to tear up NAFTA. It would cause disruption but we survived before it.

I think the figure is that the US has 9 million jobs dependent upon Canada and 5 million US jobs dependent upon Mexico through NAFTA. Edited - breaking news - Trump tells Mexico he won't pull out of NAFTA. Who knows what he'll do. It all depends upon to whom he just talked. I was right not to trust him when he met Trudeau and said he would just tweak NAFTA.

Anyhow, yes, Progpen, one minister re the softwood said, "See you in court".

And the Premier of BC has written to Prime Minister Trudeau asking him to put a ban on coal being shipped from BC's ports. And most of it is American coal. Wonder how his pet coal industry would like that. Why the heck are we shipping American dirty stuff through our ports anyhow!

She said she has wanted to do it for some time. The coal is filthy, ruining the air and the water. She didn't want to upset the apple cart on trade, but now that he has slapped on tariffs, it is everything goes.

Trump lied that the call from Trudeau was amicable - Trudeau said it was anything but.

We are borrowing the Scottish motto - hope you don't mind Jacobus and Drago!

"Nemo me impune lacessit"

No one provokes me with impunity
.

A smile is a curve that sets everything straight. Phyllis Diller
Hope123
Posted: Thursday, April 27, 2017 12:09:42 AM

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Christy Clark, Premier of BC, said she will work with the federal government first to stop the coal going through BC ports. Trudeau said any provincial request is always considered seriously. But if she needs to, Clark said she will use any provincial means possible.

She said now that the US is not a good neighbor, has become a "hostile trading partner"slapping on tariffs, going after several industries, and even calling us names, she decided now was the time. 6 Million tonnes of US thermal coal, the dirtiest kind, goes through the Port of Vancouver every year. "She said Washington, Oregon and California have already made commitments to eliminate the use of coal as a source of electricity and every proposed coal export facility on the U.S. West Coast over the past five years has been rejected or withdrawn."

"Maxwell Cameron, a political science professor at the University of British Columbia and the author of The Making of NAFTA: How the Deal Was Done, said in an interview that Ms. Clark's announcement was an impressive "shot across the bow."

"This is exactly the kind of linkage politics that NAFTA is designed to avoid. But it's what [Mr.] Trump is going to get if he persists in bullying Canada and talking about opening up the NAFTA in ways that are clearly prejudicial to Canadian interests," he said.

https://beta.theglobeandmail.com/news/british-columbia/christy-clark-calls-on-ottawa-to-ban-coal-exports-after-softwood-lumber-duties/article34822276/?ref=http://www.theglobeandmail.com&

A smile is a curve that sets everything straight. Phyllis Diller
palapaguy
Posted: Thursday, April 27, 2017 12:35:28 AM

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Please. This is a grammar forum. Take your politics elsewhere.
progpen
Posted: Thursday, April 27, 2017 9:04:06 AM

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(heavy sigh)

@palapaquy. This is the Business and Finance section.

Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter. ― Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.
progpen
Posted: Thursday, April 27, 2017 9:10:32 AM

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Hope, if Canada does stop the coal going through their ports it will be a significant setback to the coal industry, but also to the current administration. My guess is that letting coal through Canadian ports will come up in the new NAFTA negotiations, now that the current administration says they want to renegotiate and not scrap NAFTA. That could be quite the bargaining chip.

So it appears that the current administration has changed their collective mind once again in mid sentence in that they are not going to "scrap NAFTA" but renegotiate. This aught to be interesting.

Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter. ― Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.
Hope123
Posted: Thursday, April 27, 2017 9:46:56 AM

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Progpen, I hope it will be more than just a bargaining chip. I think the premier is quite willing to now go it alone. Her own province has been pressuirng her for some time. I don't think she's bluffing as she is up for election and Canada IS trying to be more environmentally friendly. I'm not sure exactly what her provincial powers are but I am curious enough now to check. I'll let you know if I find out anything.

I think and hope Trump's impulsive way of handling policy will have farther reaching consequences than he ever dreamed of in his inexperience and will help the environment. Maybe it will help China, the recipient of the coal, to switch too if Clark stops the shipping.

As for NAFTA, Trump just said he is not considering dismantling it NOW. This sabre rattling is just his usual negotiating tactic and Canadian negotiators have mentioned they are not going to get their knickers in a knot and will be tough and strong. We do have bargaining chips. Some American farmers have already said they would never recover if NAFTA goes.

It is interesting that there is also a glut of milk in New Zealand and Australia. Apparently Canada's controlling the industry is quite smart. The whole dairy bit came to Trump's attention over a specific processed milk they use to make cheese. The provinces got together and started trading with each other. Finally! And that loss of market turned the tide for some Wisconsin farmers when there is already a glut of US milk.

Also, I would like to know if we take in five times as much milk from the US as they get from us, is that milk hormone free? Bovine Growth Hormone is legal in the US but not in Canada. I buy organic but my family does not. I would hope our government inspects that.

::::

Since Palapa Guy does not enter into discussions except to insert his politics of pro-Trump, and can't read titles of sub forums even when they are pointed out, I find that any post of his in any sub forum is not worth considering as valuable.

Telling us to stop using the sub forums for the purpose for which they are meant is not going to stop us. He is wasting his time.

A smile is a curve that sets everything straight. Phyllis Diller
progpen
Posted: Thursday, April 27, 2017 10:05:14 AM

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rBGH is indeed legal in the US, and if you look carefully you can see on some milk a statement saying that rBGH is safe and not a health risk. That just shows how entrenched Monsanto is in the US (Posilac is now owned by Eli Lily, but the entrenchment of rBGH was all Monsanto).

We only buy locally from farms that we can verify do not use any additional hormones or antibiotics. It has gotten bad enough that we cannot believe what government labels say about a product because of regulatory capture. For example the USDA has diluted the (Organic) label so much that it is damn near meaningless. This due to regulatory capture by the likes of Monsanto and Cargill.

Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter. ― Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.
Hope123
Posted: Thursday, April 27, 2017 11:16:03 AM

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Really? Darn. I count on USDA organic when I buy from California. And a lot of organic does come from California. I do try as much as posible to buy from local farmers and they get to know me and I them. They are usually truthful when you are face to face. However, I remember way back in the eighties when I asked a Mennonite farmer at market if he sprayed the potatoes, and he answered, "No". But when I said chemicals make me deathly ill, he replied, "Well I might have dusted a little". lol

I get a lot of meat and vegetables from the Community Farm of the Brethren. They are about 60 miles away so I stock up whenever they have excess food. They grow it for themselves so I know it is good, but they don't always have excess to sell to me.

It is very hard to get anything truly organic these days because chemicals from neighboring farms blow onto organic land. I am able to tolerate some foods now that are not organic, depending upon the food and the amount of chemicals used. Some crops are more highly sprayed than others.


As for the original post about negotiating, I like the Scottish motto - it can be loosely translated as "What you do to us, we will do to you". Seems fitting here. We didn't go looking for a fight.

(Edited - I think Trump's tax plan for the US corporations is going to be more of a problem for Canada than scraps about dairy and softwood that have been ongoing for twenty years. But he has to get his tax plan passed first and since it benefits him more than anybody, his tax returns are still very important and he has no intention of sharing them. And threatening to pull out of NAFTA is just Trump's way of getting Mexico to the table to renegotiate before their election. He is in a hurry.)



A smile is a curve that sets everything straight. Phyllis Diller
Hope123
Posted: Thursday, April 27, 2017 2:09:15 PM

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Prog,

I checked some links re USDA and will still continue to count on it.

Here's an opinion piece from a CBC correspondent.

He says if Trump keeps alienating other countries, "America First" may well become "America Last" and in fact in some areas that is already happening. Tourism for one. Softening someone up for a business deal is far different from alienating old friends as Mexico and Canada are looking for new markets and consumers in Canada and Mexico are deciding to switch from that California wine as there are lots of choices in the liquor stores.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/business/trade-softwood-dairy-japan-europe-china-mexico-1.4085031




A smile is a curve that sets everything straight. Phyllis Diller
Hope123
Posted: Friday, April 28, 2017 1:13:00 AM

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Prog,

I figured the NAFTA threat was just Trump negotiating so Canada and Mexico would be more amenable in renegotiations. However, some government officials have said that the NAFTA threat was not about Canada and Mexico at all! They said it was really a threat to the US Congresspeople whose constituents would be affected. He was telling them to shape up and vote how he wants in other areas. Who does that besides spolied rich kids who have to win at all costs? Trudeau even commiserated with him about Congress saying he was glad he didn't have to work in that system.

Trump caused our dollar to drop 2 cents in two days, the stock market is down, and investors are scared till they see WTF he ends up doing. And nothing came back up today as the only thing predictable about Trump is his unpredictabiliity. That may work for wheeling and dealing in construction but words matter in government.

I expect there is a bit of schadenfreude by some Americans...

I saw a response on CNN on Facebook to some facts that were absolutely true about Canada and US trade similar to what I said here. I forget the exact words but a man from North Dakota arrogantly said something about Canada and her puny economy and ended by calling the CDN poster a simpleton. I never post on those threads as I don't want to be harassed, but I surely felt like telling him that North Dakota has one of the highest number of jobs linked directly to NAFTA. And I had a few choice names to call him too.

The same choice names I have for a leader who manipulates and uses other people's lives for his own selfish gains without a whiff of conscience.

I have never in my entire life had as much contempt for any person as I do for this man and many of his followers.

A smile is a curve that sets everything straight. Phyllis Diller
progpen
Posted: Friday, April 28, 2017 4:39:15 AM

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Hope123 wrote:
I have never in my entire life had as much contempt for any person as I do for this man and many of his followers.


I'm right there with you.

Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter. ― Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.
Ashlyn Brooks
Posted: Wednesday, November 15, 2017 4:10:55 AM

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Canada has been the most supportive country for every individual in the recent times.
Some efforts are being taken to stabilize the country.
Drag0nspeaker
Posted: Wednesday, November 15, 2017 6:41:37 AM

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Hello Ashlyn.
Welcome to the forum!

Hello Hope!
I realise it's six months since you wrote about the 'labelling' of foods (you were writing mainly about 'Organic').

I don't remember whether I mentioned this on the forums previously.

When I was living in Florida (late 1990s), I used to buy "protein bars".
One time I was looking through the shelves in a 'health-food' shop and saw a bar which said "sugar-free", so I looked at the ingredients.

It was 60% "Florida Crystals*" - in very small type, inside a folded bit of the wrapper was a definition:

* - Florida Crystals: Dehydrated cane juice.


Wyrd bið ful aræd - bull!
Hope123
Posted: Wednesday, November 15, 2017 9:49:36 AM

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Welcome, Ashlyn

Hi Drago,

Sneaky bums. They should be reported for incorrect labeling. I never buy those kinds of bars or granola bars as I've heard they really are not that healthy. In fact anything with a long list is usually out for me. Sugar free means sugar alternatives and the only two I would use of those are stevia and agave and I don't think those are popular with the grocery firms.

Yeah, you really have to read labels - to my husband's chagrin I check each time to make sure they didn't make a change from previous ingredients. However, now he is doing most of the shopping, he checks for me. :)

:::

As for the resurrected topic of Canada getting tough - this is just in hours ago. Softwood exported is raw material and used to build many homes in California. Californians are not going to like it when their new homes cost considerably more because of tariffs.

https://www.wsj.com/articles/canada-steps-up-fight-over-u-s-lumber-tariffs-1510693265

:::

In trade agreements on a further front, Trudeau is being criticized both by New Zealand and Australia and at home by Conservatives because he held out on the recent TTP trade agreement until he got some progressive terms inserted that Canada wants.

Trudeau said he did not scuttle the meeting. After his meeting with Abe went long, Abe saw there was no sense continuing because of the disagreement and canceled the meeting. And in the end they announced a temporary agreement with further work needed.

His standing firm and getting what he wanted may show NAFTA negotiators that Canada may just walk away from the deal breakers Trump is advocating in those negotiations as Trump tries to scuttle NAFTA. Already US governors are upset and working to keep NAFTA because millions of US jobs are tied directly to it. Not only is he willing to walk away, but he has other trade partners lined up to replace some of the US trade. Trump has it wrong re Canada and the trade deficit - we send them raw resources and the only time there is a deficit with Canada is when oil prices are high as we supply most of their oil imports. (I have to check to make sure the word most is accurate here. Edited to add Latin America too.) Canada no longer does much manufacturing - a loss for us. One thing Canada has done is to not throw Mexico under the bus. I was pleased to hear that. In fact Trudeau got Nieto's support at the TTP gathering.

NAFTA talks start again in the New Year. So we'll have to wait and see.

In my opinion and I believe in yours(?) - there should never be a clause in trade agreements where corporations can sue governments so that governments cannot govern the way the country wants, and there should be other types of negotiations or arbitration set up somehow instead. Surely they can figure that out.

A smile is a curve that sets everything straight. Phyllis Diller
progpen
Posted: Friday, November 24, 2017 11:37:01 AM

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Food labeling and regulation has become a big enough issue that it was a sticking point in the TPP discussions. Apparently it is difficult to integrate the lack of regulation enforcement and the unimaginable amount of regulatory capture going on in the US food industry into the food industries of the other countries involved.

Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter. ― Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.
Romany
Posted: Friday, November 24, 2017 5:57:28 PM
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Perhaps I am being naive; but one of the things that I've found really difficult to absorb throughout this past year, is how closely money influences policies, and what part religion works into the mix. I think, two years ago, I would have considered the reality of this triumvate ruling the land as being the stuff of Hollywood movies.

But although we know exactly how the the minority who still support DT feel; hasn't this also been a bit of a shock to America? Now that so much inside information has become public; aren't most people surprised that this level of corruption is behind decisions that affect their lives, their safety, and their future?

Surely this, like Tuna's Last Stand, will lead to a clearing-up; a tightening of loopholes; more stringent regulations; more efficient checks and balances? In the end it may indeed drain some muck from the muckpool?
Hope123
Posted: Saturday, November 25, 2017 2:30:31 PM

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Progpen, what exactly do you mean by regulatory capture?

I do know that Canada and the US allow hundreds if not thousands of excipients and chemicals and additives to be added to their foods and medicine while some European countries allow only a dozen or so. I don't know what the countries involved in the TTP allow in their countries in their food products. Anyhow, that may be a factor in negotiations amongst any countries for any treaty.

NAFTA went nowhere this past week. Our chief negotiators didn't even attend and two previous leaders weighed in negatively - they should stay out of it. Canada's Harper criticized our negotiators and Mexico's Fox said Canada should not throw Mexico under the bus - when Trudeau has said they won't and even got Mexico's president Nieto's help last week at the APEC Summit. Canada turned to Mexico for help to fend off TPP pressure from Japan and Australia as Trudeau was not willing to accept what was not right for Canada.

https://globalnews.ca/news/3873781/nafta-deadlock-canada-blames-us-mexico/

It seems Mexico in NAFTA is drawing lines in the sand more so than Canada according to the article on the above link.

A union leader called the US a bully. Canada had better be ready to walk away too, in my opinion.

A smile is a curve that sets everything straight. Phyllis Diller
Hope123
Posted: Saturday, November 25, 2017 4:37:16 PM

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Digression from treaties and tariffs -

I too like to be an optimist Romany, but often reality takes precedence. The bottom line is always money, greed, and power.

We'll see if our government makes any changes to tax rules after the Panama/Paradise Papers. Apparently the CDN government tried to take away the legality of the offshore accounts a few years back but lobbyists intervened and won. And Canada has always been low on the corruption scale.

Recently our finance minister tried to make a few tax changes - one was to stop doctors and small businesses from allowing them as corporations to "sprinkle" their profits to non-business family - there was an uproar from them and the Canadian Taxpayers’ Federation which is not FOR ALL Canadian taxpayers.

The opposition attacked him personally. They want him to sell ALL his assets “in any company” and put his money in a bank deposit or government bonds. All because he proposed a bill to help Canadians with their pensions and even if there is a blind trust there is a possibility of conflict of interest with his businesses. He is a qualified businessman with astute knowledge of how to manage Canada's money but he may as well quit government if that is the requirement.

There is no group to pushback for ordinary Canadian Taxpayers not in business.

So how would he go about fighting to get the offshore loopholes closed? The wealthy know how to use their power. And I have had my medical tax claim audited - I lost count - 4 times I think, with no adjustments.

In the US, Trump, with the help of the GOP, are undoing all the regulations Obama put into effect in the financial sector - actually in all government business.

Read what Tillerson is doing and what is happening in the US government now with posts not being filled and "Diplomats Sound the Alarm as They Are Pushed Out in Droves". Bannon is on the way to getting his men (and they will be men, probably white) into government. Think Roy Moore in Alabama where some Christians are going against anything Jesus taught to back him so the party can get a tax reform bill passed even after pedophile allegations were claimed against him and his poor record on upholding the law and on human values are well known.

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/11/24/us/politics/state-department-tillerson.html?hp&action=click&pgtype=Homepage&clickSource=story-heading&module=first-column-region&region=top-news&WT.nav=top-news

The tax reform bill will not help the middle class but helps the wealthy and business.

Remember FounDit saying that the "pendulum swing" back to conservative values is happening? I guess the above must be what he meant.

I see they found djt's name on the Panama papers yesterday.

There are the Koch Brothers who use their wealth to influence politics to put conservatives in power. The richest 1 percent in the United States now own more wealth than the bottom 90 percent.

Jeff Bezos of Amazon fame is now worth $100 billion - he made $6 B in 20 minutes and after Black Friday was over 7B $ richer. In one year he went from $60 B to $100 B. The old saying "It takes money to make money surely rings true. Bill Gates, Jeff Bezos, and Warren Buffett keep getting richer. They hold wealth that equals the wealth owned by the bottom half of the population. "The wealth owned by the entirety of the Forbes 400 list is equal to wealth owned by the bottom 64 percent of America and is equivalent to the entire GDP of Great Britain. A later report found that America’s 25 richest people together hold over $1 trillion dollars, the same wealth as 56% of the U.S. population.

Given the global nature of the tax haven business, of course, real reform will ultimately require collective action involving many countries. Yet that was stopped a few years back too.

I am still hoping that in Canada the CRA will go after tax evaders and that the government will change the loopholes - but I'm not holding my breath.

An American will have to answer your question about draining from the muckpool, but in my observations from afar, I think they are just changing the muck.



A smile is a curve that sets everything straight. Phyllis Diller
progpen
Posted: Saturday, November 25, 2017 4:59:16 PM

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Hi Hope. I wanted to find a good apolitical definition as this has become a very hot topic in the US.

https://www.investopedia.com/terms/r/regulatory-capture.asp
Regulatory capture is a theory associated with George Stigler, a Nobel laureate economist. It is the process by which regulatory agencies eventually come to be dominated by the very industries they were charged with regulating. Regulatory capture happens when a regulatory agency, formed to act in the public's interest, eventually acts in ways that benefit the industry it is supposed to be regulating, rather than the public.

Examples of this are:
Pharmaceutical companies creating and directing policy and enforcement within the Food and Drug Administration.
Wall Street investment industry writing policy in the Securities and Exchange Commission.
Fossil fuel industry directing policy and enforcement within the Environmental Protection Agency.

This is usually accomplished by bringing CEOs from the industries in to the departments to become their heads, but is also done by defunding the department to the point that it must rely on the industries to police themselves.

Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter. ― Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.
Hope123
Posted: Sunday, November 26, 2017 3:44:02 PM

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Thanks, Progpen. I get it now. I just came across a similar but not exactly the same situation here where the Canadian Taxpayer Federation is not really for the ordinary taxpayer as you would think, but is helping the wealthy taxpayers.

A smile is a curve that sets everything straight. Phyllis Diller
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