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Ms. Clinton's supporters are fantasizing about ... Options
TheParser
Posted: Tuesday, March 07, 2017 9:55:12 AM
Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 9/21/2012
Posts: 4,674
Neurons: 22,062
Title of article: The Deep State
Author: Adam Shatz
Publication: London Review of Books (A liberal British magazine of book reviews and ideas. My favorite magazine. Very civilized in the stereotypical British way.)

*****

Mr. Shatz asserts that many people (including himself) who oppose President Trump are currently fantasizing about the three ways in which the President could possibly leave the White House before January, 2021.

Fantasy #1. The military will take over. (Mr. Shatz feels this is unlikely.)

Fantasy #2. The President will be impeached (and convicted). (Unlikely, Mr. Shatz thinks.)

Fantasy #3. [This is something that is not appropriate to post, I feel.] Mr. Shatz makes at least three references to it in his very short article. He tells us that he did not even want to discuss it on the telephone with someone.

*****

Here are some of Mr. Shatz's opinions:

1. "Talk of violence, civil war and secession is in the air in blue states [states in which Secretary Clinton won] today."

2. "[M]ost of us who live in coastal cities have found ourselves having criminal thoughts and violent fantasies since 9 November."

3. "These feelings provide a measure of psychological release, but they are also difficult to manage. Living with bile and rage is not pleasant; it eats away at the soul, when the adrenaline subsides."

4. "My hunch is that they [the thoughts and fantasies] express, above all, a sense not only of horror, but of impotence."

5. "[I]t's notable how easily violent thoughts have come to those of us who have known only a single ... month" of President Trump's administration.

6. Mr. Shatz believes that President Trump "has provoked otherwise pacific [peaceful] people into dreaming of violence -- and dreaming that violence is their only resort to him."

7. Mr. Shatz points out that Americans have long criticized other countries where there has been a history of political violence. He says that the present political climate in the States should make us reflect "on the fragile psychology of political violence, as we feel the fantasy, even the temptation of violence, rise up in ourselves."

8. He ends his article by reminding us that the Egyptian people got rid of President Morsi and ended up with something even worse.

9. He ends his article with: "When we act on our fears, we usually end up being ruled by them."


*****

If at least one (just one!) poster thinks twice before s/he goes off on a hysterical rant about President Trump, it will have been worth taking the time and effort in posting this.

I am sick to my stomach that neither President Trump nor Democratic leaders have done anything to try working together like mature and rational human beings.


Lotje1000
Posted: Tuesday, March 07, 2017 10:05:56 AM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 11/3/2014
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Location: Gent, Flanders, Belgium
You still seem to think that anyone who opposes Trump must therefore support Clinton. Are you aware that the campaign and election have ended?
Andrew Schultz
Posted: Tuesday, March 07, 2017 1:41:05 PM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 7/7/2015
Posts: 407
Neurons: 897,510
Location: Chicago, Illinois, United States
Perhaps many of us who oppose Trump realize that a lot happens on the local level, and we see a lot of cracks in the Republican coalition.

We realize that organizing and calling our politicians works.

We realize that Trump has insulted the FBI, CIA, Justice department, and so forth.

And yes, we realize in many ways Pence may be worse than Trump, if Trump is replaced or resigns. But you can't let fear get in the way of fighting for what's right every day. And by fighting I don't mean violence.

I think Trump is utterly toast, with the latest revelations. The intelligence community is conservative about what they know, because they will have to show how they know it, which means burning sources who might be valuable later.

I think you may be projecting a lot of what Shatz wrote. I imagine lots of people wish Trump were declared mentally unfit or sent to jail, but our own worst thoughts are a far cry from actually doing or saying anything stupid and foolish. I wouldn't be surprised if many people who wanted to see Trump go from day 1 over, say, emoluments are shocked at the possible Russia connections. Granted, they may *WANT* to be shocked, but...

And I think there's another possibility. People get sick of living with their own rage and actually want to do something constructive together. I think it is happening. We can be cynical or fatalist, or we can get going.

Link to original review: https://www.lrb.co.uk/blog/2017/02/14/adam-shatz/the-deep-state/

The book seems to warn more against relying on the deep state to do everything. But if people continually protest trump, the deep state may be more willing to dish any and all dirt on him...and maybe Pence.

I particularly enjoy the idiom section of this fine website.
tunaafi
Posted: Tuesday, March 07, 2017 2:35:16 PM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 6/3/2014
Posts: 4,453
Neurons: 53,498
Location: Karlín, Praha, Czech Republic
TheParser wrote:
If at least one (just one!) poster thinks twice before s/he goes off on a hysterical rant about President Trump, it will have been worth taking the time and effort in posting this.

Many (not all, I admit) of the people who have expressed their negative views about Trump and his policies have done so reasonably. They have supported their claims/arguments with evidence.

Some (not all, I admit) of the people who have expressed their positive views about Trump and his policies have done so unreasonably, making little or no attempt to support their claims with evidence.

Quote:
am sick to my stomach that neither President Trump nor Democratic leaders have done anything to try working together like mature and rational human beings.

So am I.


Hope123
Posted: Tuesday, March 07, 2017 4:32:19 PM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 3/23/2015
Posts: 7,279
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Location: Burlington, Ontario, Canada
9. He ends his article with: "When we act on our fears, we usually end up being ruled by them."

IMCO - Fear stirred up in the public for two years is exactly why the US is being ruled by people who have these fears and conspiracy theories (Trump and Bannon) that are creating policies and problems for the US.

When a group (Republicans) was unreasonable and refused to cooperate, admitting in public their only policy was to block Obama come hell or high water, for the eight years previous years, there is not much hope for cooperation now. (Parser, did you feel sick to your stomach then? If not, why is it any different now?) And that atmosphere is being exacerbated by a leader who cannot accept even the slightest criticism, gets angry, makes increasingly serious accusations, and treats the media and other leaders in his own government and foreign leaders like idiots.

You get what you give.

BTW - who is Hillary Clinton? We are way past that.


Even if Democrats do have the reputation for being kinder, gentler compassionate socialistic people, they are not pushovers either. They have been doing the only recourse things they have in a democracy such as to protest peaceably. And to work, as Andrew says, calling their local leaders as well to account, going to these town hall meetings, writing, calling etc.There is no need to fear that - it is how it is supposed to work.

I'm afraid your stomach is in for a lot more nausea, Parser, unless you look after yourself and stop letting it get to you - easier said than done. I have awakened a few nights myself.

Might you perhaps understand that how some posters are coping with their anxiety is to post evidence about the mishandling of situations by an inexperienced administration? Anxiety about what is happening with North Korea, the US mobilizing the anti missile system THAAD, China, what Russia is doing, and who see Trump's policies as a cause? For Americans how this upheaval is affecting their personal lives. Will Boneyfriend's son lose his healthcare? Will I be deported and never see my children again? Will I be able to travel? It must be agonizing for them.


What we say on here is not going to make or break the situation so you can probably relax a bit about your need to make us stop posting negative threads. I have not seen any over the top name calling of Trump lately, and anything I have posted I have tried to back up with evidence, as do the others. There are all kinds of links in most posts. Calling our posts hysterical does not help.

:::

Andrew, out of the frying pan into the fire? But would Bannon be gone if T were to resign? Which is in doubt if he ever would. Why is Pence so bad?

I believe they are investigating some of Trump's business deals but it is way to early to tell if there is any fire there in Azerbaijan.

A smile is a curve that sets everything straight. Phyllis Diller
Andrew Schultz
Posted: Tuesday, March 07, 2017 7:39:50 PM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 7/7/2015
Posts: 407
Neurons: 897,510
Location: Chicago, Illinois, United States
Hope123 wrote:
Andrew, out of the frying pan into the fire? But would Bannon be gone if T were to resign? Which is in doubt if he ever would. Why is Pence so bad?

I believe they are investigating some of Trump's business deals but it is way to early to tell if there is any fire there in Azerbaijan.


This is a difficult one...as embattled as Trump is, I don't see him pushing his agenda across. Now, I'm not sure how much Pence knows, if anything. But:

* He projects sanity. People may be so relieved at least he's not Trump, they cling to him through 2020 or even 2024. If Trump survives the midterms Pence could run twice. My opinion of Pence is that he's a behind the scenes backstabber, but I doubt that's popular among the public.
* That's a very good point Bannon is out, but Pence will keep Trump's cabinet appointments
* Pence has definite conservative views and legislated that way as Governor of Indiana
* Trump has annoyed several Republican senators. Senators that can block the majority needed for the worst bills. Bring Pence in and you have good will/a honeymoon period and Republicans back in line voting with the party.

But there is a huge unknown: if people rally against a possible President Pence as doubly unelected (lost popular vote, only out because Trump did (whatever). If Trump goes down and Pence is proven to know something, then obviously Pence is tainted and we might have President Paul Ryan. He's bad in his own way--I'd rather see Orrin Hatch (4th in succession, senator from Utah) whom I disagree with but he has relative integrity. That said I don't think Ryan is corrupt, just horribly Ayn Randian and dishonest about things like Medicaid/Medicare and social safety net budgets.

Re Azerbaijan I had to look up what the deal was, and it looks horrible. There seems to be something new and crazy every day.

I saw the start of Rachel Maddow's piece and like how she has chosen to cover things. She looks at what Trump does, not what he says. It's a refreshing change. And I think it works well with George Lakoff's "Don't think of an elephant:" don't let THEM frame the narrative.

I particularly enjoy the idiom section of this fine website.
Dreamy
Posted: Tuesday, March 07, 2017 8:51:26 PM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 9/11/2009
Posts: 1,504
Neurons: 7,723
Location: Hamilton, Waikato, New Zealand
TheParser wrote:
Title of article: The Deep State
Author: Adam Shatz
Publication: London Review of Books (A liberal British magazine of book reviews and ideas. My favorite magazine. Very civilized in the stereotypical British way.)
Here are some of Mr. Shatz's opinions:
1. "Talk of violence, civil war and secession is in the air in blue states [states in which Secretary Clinton won] today."
2. "[M]ost of us who live in coastal cities have found ourselves having criminal thoughts and violent fantasies since 9 November."
3. "These feelings provide a measure of psychological release, but they are also difficult to manage. Living with bile and rage is not pleasant; it eats away at the soul, when the adrenaline subsides."
4. "My hunch is that they [the thoughts and fantasies] express, above all, a sense not only of horror, but of impotence."
5. "[I]t's notable how easily violent thoughts have come to those of us who have known only a single ... month" of President Trump's administration.
6. Mr. Shatz believes that President Trump "has provoked otherwise pacific [peaceful] people into dreaming of violence -- and dreaming that violence is their only resort to him."
7. Mr. Shatz points out that Americans have long criticized other countries where there has been a history of political violence. He says that the present political climate in the States should make us reflect "on the fragile psychology of political violence, as we feel the fantasy, even the temptation of violence, rise up in ourselves."
8. He ends his article by reminding us that the Egyptian people got rid of President Morsi and ended up with something even worse.
9. He ends his article with: "When we act on our fears, we usually end up being ruled by them."

This reminds me of how some people in NZ felt about Helen Clark who was our Prime Minister for 3 consecutive terms, a total of 9 years.

There were frequent protests and death threats. On occasions she was publically reduced to tears. Much vitriole and hatred for her was expressed, some of it from the likes of pastor's wives and normally docile people.

A week in politics is a long time, but 9 years of loathing for her and the Labour government kept the militants on the march until she was defeated at the polls and retired to push her agenda at the UN.

Job 33:15 "In a dream, in a vision of the night, When deep sleep falls upon men, In slumberings upon the bed;" Theology 101 "If He doesn't know everything then He isn't God."
OnTheVerge
Posted: Wednesday, March 08, 2017 3:27:43 AM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 10/7/2014
Posts: 224
Neurons: 412,564
Location: San Francisco, California, United States
Dreamy

In response to your signature..."If he doesn't know everything then he isn't God" from Theo 101?!

Tell Trump that and see where it get's you Brick wall Brick wall Brick wall


The world will never starve for want of wonders, but only for want of people who wonder.
TheParser
Posted: Wednesday, March 08, 2017 4:58:20 AM
Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 9/21/2012
Posts: 4,674
Neurons: 22,062
Andrew Schultz wrote:



Thanks for the link.

Now members and guests can decide for themselves.
TheParser
Posted: Wednesday, March 08, 2017 5:12:00 AM
Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 9/21/2012
Posts: 4,674
Neurons: 22,062
Dreamy wrote:

This reminds me of how some people in NZ felt about Helen Clark who was our Prime Minister for 3 consecutive terms, a total of 9 years.



I do not know anything about Ms. Clark's politics, but I admire her courage, just as I admire President Trump's courage.

Many of us hope that President Trump will be our President for 2 consecutive terms, a total of 8 years.

It does, indeed, seem unlikely. Vested interests are ganging up on him. They do not care about the country; they care only about themselves.


But Fate often surprises us.





Romany
Posted: Wednesday, March 08, 2017 5:40:32 AM
Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 6/14/2009
Posts: 13,358
Neurons: 40,719
Location: Brighton, England, United Kingdom

I find it very difficult to believe that the most pressing concern in some people's minds is STILL who voted for whom!

This thread was actually started AFTER last Saturday and yet makes no mention of the twitter storm that has changed everything. Neither does it mention the two most contentious subjects that are occupying people's minds: the disastrous travel ban, and the failure to deliver a plan for medical aid system that will be 'beautiful', 'very nice', 'the best plan ever'.

As a result of that early morning spate (where the President of the United States publicly broke his Oath of Office, and lied in order to smear a former President of the United States - something that appeared, in his mind, to be linked in scale to the result of some goggle-box ratings ) things have happened; -

The largest, I should think, is the fact that the current admin. of the USA has lost any shred of credibility it might have retained on a world scale during the last few weeks. How can a country, which some people regarded once as The Leader of the Free World, ever be 'Great' when it's government has lost it's reputation to a point where nothing that comes out of the White House can be relied upon to be true? This has become, surely, the worst thing to have happened to America ever: there is a great big hole where America used to be: - it can no longer be relied upon. It's government has devalued it because it continues to be seen to devalue the truth.

If P is truly interested in making converts, or speaking up for 'his' side, why stay silent about the scandal that has turned the USA into the biggest threat to world peace we've ever known? People really ARE interested in how to restore credibility; how to possibly support a President who doesn't understand the consequences of his actions? How to gain the gravitas that a President must represent in order to be taken seriously?

The entire balance of power in the world has been disrupted....and people are still obsessing about the person the current USA President defeated in the actual elections?

Questions about T's sanity are out in the open now: how could they not be after Saturday? The impeachment process is being seriously explored. Even people from Ps own party are admitting their fears. The new travel ban has proved every bit as unacceptable as the first; the new health care plan is designed to give the wealthy tax breaks...there is no longer any willingness to allow T's 'plans' to unroll because it is now transparently obvious that neither he, nor his 'advisors' have any knowledge of how a government actually works.

THAT's not such a big hurdle: people can develop new skill sets. But the fact that this Admin REFUSED to have the ethical training that all incoming members of previous Admins - and previous Presidents themselves - undergo; the President himself gets all his information from the two most disreputable sources in America, rather than from Presidential briefings, and no-one on his staff, nor he himself seems actually to be familiar with the Constitution of the United States. What this says loudly and clearly is that T's administration regards truth and honour as dispensable!

Slinging mindless slogans around and writing posts in 'flaming' style, congratulating one another merely for posting - regardless of what one says - is never going to do other than irritate. At the moment, however, I would have thought that the very magnitude of the crisis would have joined both sides of the political spectrum together? Nationalism plays a large part in the Right. Patriotism. The Stars and Stripes. How on earth then can T supporters not be horrified and embarrassed by the current worldwide view that one's government is being held in contempt by so many?

Because America is broken. And if people don't learn to put aside petty party divisions in order to fix her? She just ain't gonna get fixed.

Andrew Schultz
Posted: Wednesday, March 08, 2017 10:36:25 AM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 7/7/2015
Posts: 407
Neurons: 897,510
Location: Chicago, Illinois, United States
TheParser wrote:
Dreamy wrote:

This reminds me of how some people in NZ felt about Helen Clark who was our Prime Minister for 3 consecutive terms, a total of 9 years.



I do not know anything about Ms. Clark's politics, but I admire her courage, just as I admire President Trump's courage.

Many of us hope that President Trump will be our President for 2 consecutive terms, a total of 8 years.

It does, indeed, seem unlikely. Vested interests are ganging up on him. They do not care about the country; they care only about themselves.


But Fate often surprises us.







Maybe this belongs in the vocabulary section, but audacity is not courage. It's often quite the opposite.

For instance, trump consistently judged women by their looks and never had the courage to say "Stop wearing those 'Trump that *****' tshirts! They're tasteless!"

And while I agree we need to let go of who voted for whom, those of us with vested interests in the country or basic healthcare not falling apart shouldn't forget this sort of thing when told we need to give hime one more chance. @RememberBot on Twitter is good for this.

Also, if you reread the post above, you can see what party Ms Clark is in. TMYK.

I particularly enjoy the idiom section of this fine website.
progpen
Posted: Wednesday, March 08, 2017 4:11:52 PM

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Joined: 10/2/2015
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Location: Princeton, Minnesota, United States
Why is it that supporters of the current occupant of the White House whined and threatened before the election and are now still whining and threatening?

Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter. ― Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.
progpen
Posted: Tuesday, March 14, 2017 12:31:02 PM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 10/2/2015
Posts: 1,542
Neurons: 208,754
Location: Princeton, Minnesota, United States
TheParser wrote:

8. He ends his article by reminding us that the Egyptian people got rid of President Morsi and ended up with something even worse.


We in the US have knitted ourselves a political pair of idiot mittens and the rest of the world is sitting back, astonished, at the spectacle as one mitten is pulled and we punch ourselves in the face with the other.

We are not Egypt, but we have indeed ended up with something worse than expected.

Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter. ― Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.
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