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Wrong About Islam? Options
Hope123
Posted: Friday, February 17, 2017 3:16:20 PM

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Wrong About Islam?

https://www.yahoo.com/news/five-ways-donald-trump-wrong-131540880.html

This thread is about an article from "Foreign Policy" by Stephen M. Walt that is mainly for TFD poster dannydart7. See addendum. But it is something we might all keep in mind. Anyone with any thoughts re this article, please jump in. Pro or con. Since this is culture, legalities, AND politics, I opted for the Politics sub forum.

FIVE REASONS - why not to embrace the Bannon Playbook re Muslims and constructive suggestions as to what to do in the conclusions of the article (which I copied).

- The Balance of Power Is Overwhelmingly in Our Favor.
-Islam Is, in Fact, Deeply Divided.
-Terrorism Is Just Not That Big a Threat. Really.
-"Creeping Sharia” Is a Fairy Tale.
-The “Clash of Civilizations” Is a Self-Fulfilling Prophecy


Listening, I was thinking of your fears when I copied this next paragraph about the risk of terrorism from point three -
Quote -
"For example, based on the evidence since 9/11 (and including that attack), the likelihood an American will be killed by a terrorist is less than 1 in 3 million per year, and the lifetime risk is about 1 in 45,000. That’s pretty damn good odds: You are much more likely to die from being struck by lightning, falling out of bed, a heat wave, or accidentally choking on food. But don’t expect Trump, Bannon, Flynn, Gorka, Gaffney, or any of the well-compensated “terrorism experts” to highlight this fact, because their livelihoods and their ability to seize more and more power depends on keeping you very, very scared. And don’t expect the media to downplay the danger either, because hyping terrorism whenever it does occur is a good way to get your eyeballs glued to the screen. (Among other things, this is why Trump’s recent statements suggesting terrorism was being “underreported” are so absurd.)

(Conclusions of article)
...Despite the mountain of evidence that shows that anti-Americanism in the Muslim world is overwhelmingly a response to U.S. policy (and not because they “hate our freedoms”), people like Bannon, Gaffney, and their ilk want us to double down on the same policies that have inspired extremists since the 1950s and especially since the formation of al Qaeda. Frankly, given how often we’ve used our superior power to interfere in these countries, it’s somewhat surprising the reaction has been as modest and manageable as it is. Ask yourself how Americans might react if a powerful foreign country had repeatedly bombed the continental United States with aircraft and drones, or invaded, toppled our government, and then left chaos in their wake. Do you think a few patriotic Americans might be tempted to try for some payback?

My point is not to defend terrorism — far from it, in fact — but rather to remind us that it didn’t just come out of nowhere, and it isn’t solely a reaction to the political and social problems of the Muslim world itself. But if you’d like to encourage more of it, then by all means embrace the Bannon playbook.

Perhaps the most important task for any strategist is to figure out what the main threats and opportunities are, and then to devise policies that can defuse the former and exploit the latter. Making all of Islam our enemy and viewing the world through the lens of a vast “civilizational clash” fails on both criteria. If followed, it will bog us down in more interminable conflicts in places that are not vital U.S. interests, distract us from other foreign-policy issues, and sap the wealth and strength that we may need to deal with more serious challenges, including long-neglected problems here at home. I’m sure plenty of anti-Americans are hoping that we take the bait and do just that; what scares me is that there are now people in the White House who agree with them." End quote.

:::
Addendum and explanation -
( http://forum.thefreedictionary.com/postst161575_US-Travel-Ban-May-Actually-Foster-Collaboration-Amongst-World-Scientists.aspx )

Dannydart7 has posted about his/her worries about Muslims in America, even after Yarin, Maryam Dad, and others, including myself, have tried to ease his/her fears, especially about Sharia Law.


Sometimes the longest way around is the shortest way home. Anon
Romany
Posted: Friday, February 17, 2017 6:22:02 PM
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Thing is, Hope, that all this information is out there. It is being broadcast. It is being written about. It is hard to miss (which I illustrated in a previous post); and it is the majority voice in a First World context and beyond.

And just as the people you're directing this truth at, on this forum, will simply refuse to read it; out in the wider world they and like-minded people likewise refuse to acknowledge its existence. Because within this movement cognitive dissonance is already established. Just think of all those discussions on the Religion thread with those of what I know now are called the Religious Right! And remember all those times we were asked what 'evidence' really means; and " what constitutes 'proof' "... And how Scientist are all conspiracists and they aren't to be trusted?...

Well the Golden Child is their leader. (See, no 'orange' jokes)

And we are living in what has been named, officially (in the Oxford!) the post- truth era.

Truth - as a concept, as a word, has been devalued. It's like the invincible sword that we have carried down the ages has rusted overnight. Once a whole segment of people have arrived at a point where Truth becomes subjective, we're into a whole different ballgame.
Romany
Posted: Friday, February 17, 2017 6:22:03 PM
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Thing is, Hope, that all this information is out there. It is being broadcast. It is being written about. It is hard to miss (which I illustrated in a previous post); and it is the majority voice in a First World context and beyond.

And just as the people you're directing this truth at, on this forum, will simply refuse to read it; out in the wider world they and like-minded people likewise refuse to acknowledge its existence. Because within this movement cognitive dissonance is already established. Just think of all those discussions on the Religion thread with those of what I know now are called the Religious Right! And remember all those times we were asked what 'evidence' really means; and " what constitutes 'proof' "... And how Scientist are all conspiracists and they aren't to be trusted?...

Well the Golden Child is their leader. (See, no 'orange' jokes)

And we are living in what has been named, officially (in the Oxford!) the post- truth era.

Truth - as a concept, as a word, has been devalued. It's like the invincible sword that we have carried down the ages has rusted overnight. Once a whole segment of people have arrived at a point where Truth becomes subjective, we're into a whole different ballgame.
Yarin
Posted: Friday, February 17, 2017 7:16:57 PM
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completely right. Hate has caused a lot of problems in this world, but it has not solved one yet. Maya Angelou.



Maryam Dad
Posted: Friday, February 17, 2017 7:25:38 PM

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A quick glance, danny said Quran doesn't have a single nice word towards Jews and Christians


"Indeed, those who believed and those who were Jews or Christians or Sabeans [before Prophet Muhammad] - those [among them] who believed in Allah and the Last Day and did righteousness - will have their reward with their Lord, and no fear will there be concerning them, nor will they grieve." (2:62)

I think that quite nice.

Kindness is a mark of faith. and whoever is not kind has no faith.
Maryam Dad
Posted: Friday, February 17, 2017 7:38:13 PM

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http://www.virtueonline.org/six-million-african-muslims-convert-christianity-each-year

This report says 6 million Muslims convert to Christianity each year. How's many been executed because of apostasy? It would not be gone under the radar, right? (if there is any execution).



A Christian American soldier who is deployed in Afghanistan, has converted to Islam and then joined Taliban. Tell me if he is not facing death penalty.
That's is apostasy (according to Islam).

Kindness is a mark of faith. and whoever is not kind has no faith.
Maryam Dad
Posted: Friday, February 17, 2017 7:54:23 PM

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About honour killing, yes I agree Hope it is a dishonour killing, a murder. That is a cultural thing.
Islam does not recognise the execution by individual, it should be carried by state (after a trial off course)


“Whoever kills a person [unjustly]…it is as though he has killed all mankind. And whoever saves a life, it is as though he had saved all mankind.” (Qur’an, 5:32)

Kindness is a mark of faith. and whoever is not kind has no faith.
Hope123
Posted: Friday, February 17, 2017 8:56:26 PM

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Well, all we can do is, as Billy Joel says, "Keep the Faith" and keep on responding with the truth.

Canada just lost one of her favorite storytellers, Stuart McLean, at too young an age of 68.

Here's a quote from him.

“But when something like, say, 9/11 happens, it makes me double down. It’s like, if they’re saying, ‘The world is like this,’ then I say, ‘Oh no, the world is like this!’ ” He believed in the goodness of people.

Justin Trudeau tweeted - "On the Vinyl Cafe and in communities across the country, Stuart McLean told uniquely Canadian stories. We’ll miss his humour and humanity." (Vinyl Cafe was the name of the show.)

https://www.thestar.com/entertainment/2017/02/15/stuart-mclean-longtime-host-of-cbc-radios-vinyl-cafe-has-died.html

Great radio and books - I've read them all. He took everyday life and made it interesting, fun, and funny, but also made us think.

RIP Stuart. I will try to remember your "Oh no, the world is like this."

Thanks, Yarin, Maryam Dad, and Romany for your contributions!



Sometimes the longest way around is the shortest way home. Anon
Hope123
Posted: Friday, February 17, 2017 9:10:40 PM

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Another great Canadian and politician we lost in 2011 was Jack Layton. This is how he ended his letter to Canadians the day before he died.

"My friends, love is better than anger. Hope is better than fear. Optimism is better than despair. So let us be loving, hopeful and optimistic. And we’ll change the world.

All my very best,

Jack Layton"


http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/jack-layton-s-last-letter-to-canadians-1.991992




Sometimes the longest way around is the shortest way home. Anon
will
Posted: Saturday, February 18, 2017 12:22:15 PM
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First of all, I’m not sure you should take Dannydart7 too seriously. No one makes that many clichéd grammatical errors. It’s not uncommon for people to occasionally confuse ‘their’ for ‘there’ and ‘your’ for you’re’ and to not bother checking the spelling of important words... but every single time, in every instance? Either it’s someone pretending to be uneducated to make that point, or he really is that uneducated, in which case you are likely wasting your time.

Secondly, there is a crucial difference between saying that the majority of people who are Muslim are peaceful – which is demonstrably true – and saying that Islam is X, Y or Z. Interpretation of religious texts is entirely subjective and cannot be considered universal and should not be considered authoritative.

The Quran, like all other religious texts has been filtered by generations of oral tradition, before being written down and edited by mortal men over extended periods; it stands to reason that the good, the evil and the ugly of human nature are reflected therein. When a person uses unquestioning faith in mythology to justify good deeds, they validate the use of unquestioning faith in mythology to justify terrible deeds.

To be in keeping within the politics sub-forum:
Unquestioning faith in mythology is clearly open to manipulation by people with political agendas. Peaceful Muslims can repeat their personal interpretation of Islam until they are blue in the face, but for those of us who put no value in mythology, it’s just meaningless platitudes. Conversely, when the same unquestioning faith leads some to commit unimaginable acts of terror; that is truly terrifying and not so easy to brush aside.


.
Maryam Dad
Posted: Saturday, February 18, 2017 9:23:46 PM

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Understood Will,
I didn't take Danny's comments seriously, my posts were for others to see (thanks anyway for letting me know).
------
If you say most Muslims are liars, I absolutely agree (based on Islamic teaching standard), because, to lie even in a joke is a sin (I could show you the verse). So I strongly disagree if it's said Islam teach Muslims to lie.

If you say most terrorists are Muslims, I may/can agree (some people think the US is a terrorist state). But I disagree if you say Islam teach terrorism.



Kindness is a mark of faith. and whoever is not kind has no faith.
will
Posted: Sunday, February 19, 2017 5:40:31 AM
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Maryam Dad. I was NOT saying ‘most Muslims lie’ or ‘most Muslims are terrorist’ or ‘most Muslims are’… anything. I WAS saying that most Muslims exhibit the same general traits and values as any other group of individuals.

My point was that it is meaningless to say religious texts universally teach X, Y or Z, as this is clearly not the case. There are countless schisms within every religion and about as many individual interpretations of doctrine and faith as there are individuals. Religious texts, including Islam, teaches only what an individual chooses to take away from it.

Do you really believe you might commit acts of terror if the Quran didn’t teach you otherwise? Of course you wouldn’t. Human decency is not derived from religious texts, it precedes and transcends religion. By using the Quran as a mirror to reflect your humanity, you validate the same reasoning for those who chose to use the Quran to reflect inhuman acts.

Interpretation of any religious text cannot be considered universal and should not be considered authoritative.


Hope123. Did you really think this thread was not going to drift from politics? Think


.
Maryam Dad
Posted: Sunday, February 19, 2017 7:18:33 AM

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Sorry Will, wrong wording, I meant to say you, not YOU, but somebody, anybody.


Btw, Islam is the way of life. It's not separated from politics, social, economy,...




Kindness is a mark of faith. and whoever is not kind has no faith.
Maryam Dad
Posted: Sunday, February 19, 2017 7:23:30 AM

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Talking about "Wrong about Islam", my knowledge about Islam is decent enough if somebody wants to ask about Islam, or you maybe satisfied enough with your own interpretation and knowledge about Islam.

Kindness is a mark of faith. and whoever is not kind has no faith.
Харбин Хэйлунцзян 1
Posted: Sunday, February 19, 2017 8:25:04 AM

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Maryam Dad wrote:
Talking about "Wrong about Islam", my knowledge about Islam is decent enough if somebody wants to ask about Islam, or you maybe satisfied enough with your own interpretation and knowledge about Islam.

One day I bought the book, the Quran, of course not the original but a translation into Russian. And then I came across this:

Quran 8:12

Quote:
I will instil terror into the hearts of the Unbelievers: smite ye above their necks and smite all their finger-tips off them.

What do you think? The book went into the garbage.

I do not believe in God. But I have a copy of the Bible and love to read from it once in a while.
progpen
Posted: Sunday, February 19, 2017 8:34:01 AM

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There is violence in the Bible as well as in the Quran.
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=124494788
"By the standards of the time, which is the 7th century A.D., the laws of war that are laid down by the Quran are actually reasonably humane," he says. "Then we turn to the Bible, and we actually find something that is for many people a real surprise. There is a specific kind of warfare laid down in the Bible which we can only call genocide."

I don't follow either religion, but I don't hold either religion in higher or lower esteem than the other. They both have pious and truly faithful people who use their faith to make the world a better place. That said, the people who do harm in the name of either religion get all of the headlines.

Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter. ― Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.
Харбин Хэйлунцзян 1
Posted: Sunday, February 19, 2017 8:48:51 AM

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progpen wrote:
There is violence in the Bible as well as in the Quran.
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=124494788
[i]"By the standards of the time, which is the 7th century A.D., the laws of war that are laid down by the Quran are actually reasonably humane,"

The quotation in my post is not about any war - it is about all unbelievers.
While the link you've provided only mentions the story of Saul which indeed is a story of war and of the time 17 centuries before the Quran. You will not find anything like this in the story of Jesus.
March Hare
Posted: Sunday, February 19, 2017 9:35:15 AM

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Харбин Хэйлунцзян 1 wrote:
progpen wrote:
There is violence in the Bible as well as in the Quran.
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=124494788
[i]"By the standards of the time, which is the 7th century A.D., the laws of war that are laid down by the Quran are actually reasonably humane,"

The quotation in my post is not about any war - it is about all unbelievers.
While the link you've provided only mentions the story of Saul which indeed is a story of war and of the time 17 centuries before the Quran. You will not find anything like this in the story of Jesus.


How about this passage from the New Testament then?

Quote:
But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me. (Luke 19:27)


That's Christ himself saying that anyone who doesn't want him to be king should be violently killed. A passage that has been used as an excuse for many an atrocity committed by Christians, crusades included.

The Bible is most definitely no better than the Quran when it comes to inciting violence against unbelievers. You can interpret either book any way you want. In the end, the evil is not in the book, but in the people who choose to believe the violent message over the non-violent, which is also in there.
Харбин Хэйлунцзян 1
Posted: Sunday, February 19, 2017 10:07:12 AM

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March Hare wrote:
How about this passage from the New Testament then?

Quote:
But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me. (Luke 19:27)

I didn't know that. In the Russian translation it doesn't say "slay" just "beat". I've checked the text in Greek and probably KJV is correct.

March Hare wrote:
In the end, the evil is not in the book, but in the people who choose to believe the violent message over the non-violent, which is also in there.

The problem is that only Muslim countries are infested with terrorist ideas. Even in Russia (our Muslims are most peaceful) we have these problems in Muslim territories. In 2016 alone we lost 20 policemen in Dagestan:

https://ria.ru/incidents/20170116/1485806631.html
Hope123
Posted: Sunday, February 19, 2017 10:48:21 AM

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Quote Tuna- "Hope123. Did you really think this thread was not going to drift from politics?"

Hi Tuna. It could have gone in four categories. I made an executive decision since I was the one posting it. Since it was answering Danny, whose main premise is that Trump's ban is correct, it was not wrong to put it here. Where it goes from there is up to other posters who can post as they see fit.

I see Dannydart has posted pretty much the same post in inappropriate threads and NOT this one. lol. But if he listens to his wife who is afraid of us here, he won't be back. At least that is my interpretation of his hard to read posts, although one gets the general idea. We are liars, Trump is right because Sharia law is inevitable if Muslims are allowed in, and somehow he will have to abide by Sharia law too, which makes no sense if he is not Muslim. I don't think Danny is even American.

Laissez faire, Danny. Laissez faire. Let people have whatever religion they prefer.

Seems as if the world is back to having as many gods as the Greeks, Romans, and Mayans did, with even some human sacrifice allowed in various ways.


Sometimes the longest way around is the shortest way home. Anon
Romany
Posted: Sunday, February 19, 2017 12:06:07 PM
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Something else to keep in mind: -

The social media pages are full of 'Trump supporters' who flood sites and articles etc. with 'Everything Dummph is good and everything Left is bad' posts from supportive 'Americans'. They are usually in a kind of broken English with no punctuation and copious spelling errors.

They come from two major sites in Europe (those two, sadly, are both headed by English guys) and directly from Russia.They never respond directly to questions. Responses are just more of the same.

This was first told me by some techie-geek friends, but now I've seen it in warnings all over the Web.

I have also noticed - and shown others - that within minutes of a new blog going up on my blog site, the whole of Russia lights up. I use Google Analytics which shows, by means of a world map, where people who read it are from. In UK, America, Australia, etc. it colours the immediate area from which the connection came. But the map of Russia goes uniformly green. Yet in my 'pathways' (which records which search engines were used) registered servers such as Chrome etc. no where near matche the total numbers of those who have accessed the blog. This started in November last year.

Jes sayin'.....



(Edited to change the position of 'good' and 'bad'.)
Харбин Хэйлунцзян 1
Posted: Sunday, February 19, 2017 12:58:38 PM

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Romany wrote:
I have also noticed - and shown others - that within minutes of a new blog going up on my blog site, the whole of Russia lights up.

This doesn't mean anybody is reading your blog. These are bots. I've noticed the same thing with mine. They spoof some fields like browser, language and referral but they can not conceal the IP. In the language field they will write "Vote for Trump" and the referral will be reddit.com. And yes it comes from Russia.

I do not know for what inscrutable reasons they do it - probably just fooling around. Do you think this could affect the decision of the Americans?

As of anonymity what I see on this forum is that all Russians have their origin stated explicitly.
Romany
Posted: Sunday, February 19, 2017 1:23:31 PM
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"There are more things on heaven and earth than are dreamed of in [my] philosopy", mate.

I'm not drawing any conclusions (hence my 'jes' sayin'...) about it at all, right now. Things are happening. I'm noting they're happening. That's all.

And as for "Do you think this could affect the decision of the Americans?",

I have no idea, any more, of what the Americans are thinking. Which is exactly what the rest of the world is saying. Speculation is rife: but speculation isn't proof of anything.

We're ALL breaking new ground here:the solid bedrock of all the civillised world has been cracked and discarded.

Sarrriesfan
Posted: Sunday, February 19, 2017 1:41:49 PM
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Maryam Dad wrote:
http://www.virtueonline.org/six-million-african-muslims-convert-christianity-each-year

This report says 6 million Muslims convert to Christianity each year. How's many been executed because of apostasy? It would not be gone under the radar, right? (if there is any execution).



A Christian American soldier who is deployed in Afghanistan, has converted to Islam and then joined Taliban. Tell me if he is not facing death penalty.
That's is apostasy (according to Islam).


In this example the Christian soldier would not be punished for converting to Islam, he would face no punishment for doing that at all. The punishment he faces is for desertion and joining enemy combatants. It's not the same as apostasy, if he converted to Islam but still decided to fight for America as many do, or decided to seek discharge in a legal manner from the Armed Forces nothing would happen to him

I lack the imagination for a witty signature.
Maryam Dad
Posted: Sunday, February 19, 2017 11:01:50 PM

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That's my point, Sarriesfan.
Death penalty for leaving Islam only comes into effect if s/he fights against Islam.

There shall be no compulsion in [acceptance of] the religion. The right course has become clear from the wrong. (Qur’an 2:256)

Kindness is a mark of faith. and whoever is not kind has no faith.
Maryam Dad
Posted: Sunday, February 19, 2017 11:06:48 PM

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@Sergei

Did you and the Germans just hug and give flowers each other during WW2?

008.012 Remember thy Lord inspired the angels (with the message): "I am with you:
give firmness to the Believers: I will instill terror into the hearts of the Unbelievers:
smite ye above their necks and smite all their finger-tips off them."


This verse and the verses before and after were revealed about the Battle of Badr, which occurred in Arabia in the early seventh century. A battle in which the pagans of Makkah traveled more than 200 miles to Madinah with an army of about 1000 to destroy Muslims. Prophet Muhammad (peace be on him) and fellow Muslims had suffered severe persecutions and torture for 13 years in the city of Makkah. And now that they had fled Makkah and found a sanctuary in the city of Madinah, they were once again threatened. Muslim Army was only about 300 strong. God Almighty gave the order to Muslims to fight to defend their lives and faith. The enemy came to them with the intent to kill Muslims. It was a war to defend themselves and their Faith. It was a war imposed upon Muslims.

And when you fight, you strive to kill the enemy during the fight.

Kindness is a mark of faith. and whoever is not kind has no faith.
Maryam Dad
Posted: Sunday, February 19, 2017 11:08:23 PM

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You also don't fight, if the enemy wants a peace treaty:

008.061 But if the enemy incline towards peace, do thou (also) incline towards
peace, and trust in God: for He is One that hears and knows (all things).

God Almighty also says in Chapter 60:

060.008 God forbids you not, with regard to those who fight you not for (your) Faith
nor drive you out of your homes, from dealing kindly and justly with them: for God
loves those who are just.

060.009 God only forbids you, with regard to those who fight you for (your) Faith,
and drive you out of your homes, and support (others) in driving you out, from
turning to them (for friendship and protection). It is such as turn to them (in these
circumstances), that do wrong.

Kindness is a mark of faith. and whoever is not kind has no faith.
Maryam Dad
Posted: Sunday, February 19, 2017 11:26:19 PM

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progpen wrote:
There is violence in the Bible as well as in the Quran.
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=124494788
"By the standards of the time, which is the 7th century A.D., the laws of war that are laid down by the Quran are actually reasonably humane," he says. "Then we turn to the Bible, and we actually find something that is for many people a real surprise. There is a specific kind of warfare laid down in the Bible which we can only call genocide."

I don't follow either religion, but I don't hold either religion in higher or lower esteem than the other. They both have pious and truly faithful people who use their faith to make the world a better place. That said, the people who do harm in the name of either religion get all of the headlines.






O people! I charge you with ten rules; learn them well…for your guidance in the battlefield! Do not commit treachery, or deviate from the right path. You must not mutilate dead bodies. Neither kill a child, nor a woman, nor an aged man. Bring no harm to the trees, nor burn them with fire, especially those which are fruitful. Slay not any of the enemy's flock, save for your food. You are likely to pass by people who have devoted their lives to monastic services; leave them alone."

Kindness is a mark of faith. and whoever is not kind has no faith.
will
Posted: Monday, February 20, 2017 10:56:06 AM
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Maryam Dad. You are demonstrating exactly the point I make. You are – like many theists do – regurgitating select fragments from ancient texts, as if that affords you a special insight into human morality. It does not.

Theists and religions do NOT have any special ownership over morality; on the contrary, ancient texts frequently depict versions of morality that are grossly outdated and frequently barbaric – exactly as one would expect from texts authored thousands of years ago in unenlightened, pre-scientific eras.

Here you’ve put your personal context on to a ‘revelation*’ regarding a 7th century battle between warring tribes in a particular geographical region… as if that teaches us anything meaningful about human morality in modern global societies.

I repeat: individual Muslims can claim a divine right to their personal (peaceful) interpretation of 7th century ‘revelations*’ until they are blue in the face, but it’s a fact that, in exactly the same way, other Muslims will continue to claim a divine right to their personal interpretation of 7th century ‘revelations*’ and come to completely contradictory conclusions. By all means argue amongst yourselves about what message your omniscience god was actually trying to convey, 1500 years ago, with the words ‘I will instil terror into the hearts of the Unbelievers’ … but please try to understand that human decency is something the majority of people instinctively understand perfectly well without any reference to seventh century ideas of morality, or any regard or adherence to any ancient mythology.

*I feel obliged to point out that ‘revelation’ is an extraordinary assertion for which there is absolutely no evidence. I personally wouldn’t find recent anecdotal claims to be at all compelling for an issue as important as a basis for human morality; I certainly don’t see any reason to accept 7th century anecdote without extraordinary evidence to back it up.

progpen wrote:
I don't follow either religion, but I don't hold either religion in higher or lower esteem than the other. They both have pious and truly faithful people who use their faith to make the world a better place.

I find this truly depressing. I understand this reasoning from people who have been indoctrinated from birth to believe that human decency is contingent on supernatural fear and reward, but why do non-theists continue to accept this dogma as though it were valid?

Can you name a single belief or deed, that makes the world a better place, that could not also define or be performed by a non-theist? Human decency is not derived from religion, it precedes and transcends it.


progpen wrote:
That said, the people who do harm in the name of either religion get all of the headlines.

Dog bites man, is not newsworthy; Man butchers dog because of belief in prehistoric myth, is. Whistle


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progpen
Posted: Monday, February 20, 2017 11:36:43 AM

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will wrote:
Can you name a single belief or deed, that makes the world a better place, that could not also define or be performed by a non-theist? Human decency is not derived from religion, it precedes and transcends it.


What I said did not in any way imply that non-theists cannot have the same human decency. But that does not mean that theists cannot exhibit human decency. You are trying to apply absolutes where none exist.

Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter. ― Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.
will
Posted: Monday, February 20, 2017 11:54:40 AM
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No. What I said did not in any way imply that theists cannot have the same human decency. I was suggesting that you where perpetuating the common misconception that theism is the root of morality.

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progpen
Posted: Monday, February 20, 2017 12:30:14 PM

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will wrote:
No. What I said did not in any way imply that theists cannot have the same human decency. I was suggesting that you where perpetuating the common misconception that theism is the root of morality.


Ah, ok. Then you are incorrect.

Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter. ― Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.
Maryam Dad
Posted: Monday, February 20, 2017 5:46:08 PM

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Will,
I think I understand what you are saying.

I just disagree if someone says our ancient 'revelations' is the source of evils. As if human immorality only came after 7th century.

Kindness is a mark of faith. and whoever is not kind has no faith.
will
Posted: Tuesday, February 21, 2017 11:09:08 AM
Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 6/29/2009
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Maryam Dad. Thanks for taking the time to try understand what I’m saying. I’m aware religious faith is a sensitive subject, I appreciate and respect your unemotional response.

But… I still don’t think you quite understand me. I am NOT saying Islam (or any religion or scripture) is the source of evil or immorality. I’ve repeatedly tried to make that clear.

I AM simply saying that ancient texts (particularly being based on anecdotal claims of supernatural revelation) are a meaningless arbiter for (modern, global) moral and immoral standards.

Human morality and immorality are human constructs that humanity can, and indeed does, judge – by modern standards and for the collective good – without any reference to ancient text, religious dogma or supernatural myth.

Let me try once more with one of my tortured metaphors Whistle

Using religion to define morality is like trying to create a clear picture of humanity by starting out with a big mixed box of jigsaw pieces. Individuals will pick out puzzle pieces that they think fits the picture they have in their minds – you, Maryam Dad, will be happily fitting bits together that make up a picture of (Islamic) peace and respect – but meanwhile others will be picking pieces that they think fits a completely different picture. And there'll be some old, outdated, pieces in the box that don't fit any picture that reflects reality. Persevering with this folly inevitably results in a meaningless and endless process of trying to force together puzzle pieces that are simply not compatible.

The solution is to first ask: “What picture can we, humanity, agree we would like to create?” -- I pretty sure the majority of humanity would agree to something very similar. Then if a puzzle piece fits the picture, ‘we’ put it in place. If it doesn’t fit ‘we’ throw it away. If anyone trys to force pieces that don’t fit into the picture that humanity as agreed on, then they don’t get to play.

There, if that doesn’t clarify things, nothing will. Anxious


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FounDit
Posted: Tuesday, February 21, 2017 12:11:12 PM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 9/19/2011
Posts: 7,697
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will wrote:


The solution is to first ask: “What picture can we, humanity, agree we would like to create?” -- I pretty sure the majority of humanity would agree to something very similar. Then if a puzzle piece fits the picture, ‘we’ put it in place. If it doesn’t fit ‘we’ throw it away. If anyone trys to force pieces that don’t fit into the picture that humanity as agreed on, then they don’t get to play.

There, if that doesn’t clarify things, nothing will. Anxious.


I'm not sure that should be the first question to ask. Wouldn't a better question be: "Is there a Supreme Being, or not?"

Until we (humanity) can universally agree there is not, there will always be those who will try to fit pieces into the picture that don't match the pieces others are trying to put in, because there will always be conflicting ideas of who that Supreme Being is.

I don't hold out much hope for agreement.


A great many people will think they are thinking when they are merely rearranging their prejudices. ~ William James ~
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