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On The Election of Donald Trump Options
progpen
Posted: Saturday, February 18, 2017 10:01:16 AM

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Lotje1000 wrote:
FounDit wrote:
Really nice to see a real man in charge for a change.


Really nice to see a thesis get proven.


Ok, now you lost me.

Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter. ― Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.
Hope123
Posted: Saturday, February 18, 2017 10:31:02 AM

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Me too, Progpen.

::::

Trump Vineyard Requests Visas For Still More Foreign Workers
“America First” doesn’t apply to Trump wines.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/trump-vineyard-requests-visas-for-still-more-foreign-workers_us_58a7c90ee4b07602ad54f1e1?ref=yfp

When is he bringing back his companies from China etc.?

When will he stop buying Chinese steel?

I'll believe he is for the American people when he does those plus shows his tax returns and creates a truly blind trust.

The present government in power has no people with courage - not going to investigate conflict of interest, not going to investigate to see if Russian collusion, and no nvestigation into security risks at Mar a Lago, or an unsecured phone he uses all the time. Not yet anyhow. But Chaffetz wants to reopen investigation into Hillary's emails to deflect from Trump's current difficulties.

Edited -

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/white-house-plans-to-have-trump-ally-review-intelligence-agencies/ar-AAmZGls







Equality is when you see a person - not a label.
towan52
Posted: Saturday, February 18, 2017 10:41:46 AM

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The best I can offer is an "Oh for Christ's sake" - will that suffice?Whistle Boo hoo!

"Be careful about reading health books. You may die of a misprint."
Lotje1000
Posted: Saturday, February 18, 2017 11:58:20 AM

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progpen wrote:
Lotje1000 wrote:
FounDit wrote:
Really nice to see a real man in charge for a change.


Really nice to see a thesis get proven.


Ok, now you lost me.


In the thread I linked I was talking about terms like "true patriots" or "real men" as a way to divide people. FD is showing a perfect example of that kind of language.
will
Posted: Saturday, February 18, 2017 12:20:27 PM
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When politicians talk of "hard working people..", I've always dismissed it carefully planned, if cynical, speech writing. When Trump does it, I can't help worrying that it's his natural thoughts. Eh?




I thought of this thread this morning while listening to my taxi driver living up to what I had assumed was a stereotype. In a 5 mile journey I got just about every cliché going, including:

“You can’t call yourself English any more”.
I pointed out that you can, in fact it’s requested on most forms. To which he replied:
“I shouldn’t have to prove I’m British. This is all the proof I need”, pointing to his arm (skin).
I pointed out that he could be white and French, or Australian… or South African for that matter.
This exchange trailed off onto some comment about immigrants taking our jobs and not learning to speak the language.
If only, I replied. Pray

.
dannydart7
Posted: Saturday, February 18, 2017 2:12:35 PM
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Neurons: 463
Man you guys have all the answers to bad some of us are not fooled by your lies Europe does not want the Muslims there crime up 35% some countries have a Sheree law separate court to rule on certain things, thats what is called a slippery slope just opens the door.Once you lie about Sheree law in the countries that are on the travel ban Sheree law is the law of the land and yes they do practice Quran 33:50-Incest, Q-5:38 dismemberment , Q-4:49 Apostasy thats the big really you are a Muslin or your a 2nd class citizen you guys lie about this one always just admitted it you cant i know .We cant even be a Polytheists in the Quran 9:5 thats the word of Allah but you still lie Trump has it right i think he did some research on the Islamic history its not a petty sight. Your answers are always well look at any other religion lets do yours 1st because your was the last one in .Answer me this in all Muslim countries over 25% would vote or prefer Sheree law that number is roughly the total population of the U.S.A. but you say its nothing to worry about i disagree .Lets look at a few things accredited to the Muslims 732AD Muslim army moves on Paris defeated by Charles Martell. in 1571 AD Muslims army/navy defeated by Italians and Austrians in Southern Europe at The Battle of Lepanto .In 1683 AD Turkish Muslims army attacked in Eastern Europe defeated by German and Polish armies at The Battle of Vienna .A religion of peace ok . Let do a little update let me say before hand that all these things were done by Muslims and may be this is why we need to profile and why Trump is right if you guy would disavow some of the downright archaic believes to conform to modern times .How on earth do you guys get women to join oh i know there born into it, but i digress updating Muslims good deeds 1969- Robert Kennedy murdered all these are done by Muslims. 1972-Munich Olympic Israelis kidnapped and than killed in a bombing in the helicopter. 1972-PAN AM 747 hijacked than blown up . 1973- PAN AM 707 33 people killed by grenades. 1979- U.S. Embassy in Iran taken over by force. 1983- Marine Barracks in Beirut blown up. 1985- cruse ship man in wheelchair killed thrown overboard .1985-TWA flight 847- Athens 1988- PAN AM flight 103 bombed .1993 W T C bombed 1st time. 1998 Kenya U.S. Embassy bombed. 2001- 9/11 everyone knows that one. 2013-Boston Marathon 5 dead 264 wounded . Most Americans know nothing about your religion or history you better hope that we keep are heads in the sand cause if Trump can make his point understood you'll have to figure out how to make your own countries work. Sir you are more than welcome here but why don't you help turn in or root out the bad one's instead of helping them your masks are not safe . Tell me to shut-up and that i got it all wrong and i will . My wife is worried i'm putting us in harms way and when i think about it she might be right so i'm done thank you for your answers dannydart7
progpen
Posted: Saturday, February 18, 2017 4:47:30 PM

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Lotje1000 wrote:
progpen wrote:
Lotje1000 wrote:
FounDit wrote:
Really nice to see a real man in charge for a change.


Really nice to see a thesis get proven.


Ok, now you lost me.


In the thread I linked I was talking about terms like "true patriots" or "real men" as a way to divide people. FD is showing a perfect example of that kind of language.


I get what you're saying and I do agree that phrases can have a meaning outside of the intent, but holy cow 'any' word or phrase can be taken out of context. 'Any' word or phrase can be given a new meaning that we don't like. And most importantly the meaning of 'any' word or phrase can and will change over time, based on how people use it. That's the most important point here. Yes 'real man' has those wonderful chauvinistic connotations of the good old days when men were men and sheep were scared. But that doesn't mean that some day it won't have a more egalitarian meaning. The same goes for patriot, which honestly does not have the same baggage in the US that it has in Europe.

For f*cksake, let's take back our vocabulary.

Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter. ― Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.
Lotje1000
Posted: Sunday, February 19, 2017 5:03:41 AM

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Hope123 wrote:
What did they tell him as to why he can never just admit "I was wrong" or say "I'm sorry".

"I don't know.
I'm sorry.
I was wrong.
I need help". Real men say that! Those are signs of strength. But they can also be strong in other ways when they need to be.

Real men are polite and listen to three and four part questions (and actually answer them as Obama did) instead of rambling on about his accomplishments. Real men respect others, including women and minorities. Real men change diapers. Real men make sure their wives get out of a car. Real men cry. Real men don't worry out loud about the size of their penis. Real men are not bullies who back down when confronted. Real men eat quiche. Whistle


My tedious negative rant is over - till the next time...


Hope is taking back our vocabulary, progpen. She's actually defining it rather than using it as a vague and meaningless slogan like FD was doing.
will
Posted: Sunday, February 19, 2017 5:42:06 AM
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As you probably already know, but just in case… you’re discussing the No True Scotsman fallacy
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_Scotsman

Hope123 wrote:
Real men don't worry out loud about the size of their penis.

Nice qualification, you clearly understand us real men too well. Whistle

Edit: for some reason my links are no displaying, you'll have to google it yourself. Eh?


.
almo 1
Posted: Sunday, February 19, 2017 6:08:06 AM
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Romany
Posted: Sunday, February 19, 2017 6:53:52 AM
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Joined: 6/14/2009
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Location: Brighton, England, United Kingdom

Maybe that's what he really saw each time he looked in a White House mirror?
progpen
Posted: Sunday, February 19, 2017 8:21:26 AM

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Location: Princeton, Minnesota, United States
Lotje1000 wrote:
Hope123 wrote:
What did they tell him as to why he can never just admit "I was wrong" or say "I'm sorry".

"I don't know.
I'm sorry.
I was wrong.
I need help". Real men say that! Those are signs of strength. But they can also be strong in other ways when they need to be.

Real men are polite and listen to three and four part questions (and actually answer them as Obama did) instead of rambling on about his accomplishments. Real men respect others, including women and minorities. Real men change diapers. Real men make sure their wives get out of a car. Real men cry. Real men don't worry out loud about the size of their penis. Real men are not bullies who back down when confronted. Real men eat quiche. Whistle


My tedious negative rant is over - till the next time...


Hope is taking back our vocabulary, progpen. She's actually defining it rather than using it as a vague and meaningless slogan like FD was doing.


That's excellent, Lotje. So how does that differ from my use of patriot? I was talking about a person who put their relatively significant career on the line in order to stand up for others. I've also used it for others who have done basically the same thing. Putting themselves at risk in order to stand up for those who cannot defend themselves.

Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter. ― Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.
Hope123
Posted: Sunday, February 19, 2017 9:07:17 AM

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I see nothing wrong with using the word patriot, Progpen. One can defend one's country and the office of the presidency without necessarily supporting the man or woman in the chair. And the expanded meaning that you give is fine to me too. Is this a BE/AE thingy? I recall at one point being chastised for using the word "lady". My CDN friends just shook their heads at anyone who would think lady was derogatory when I queried them about using it. Everybody uses it here.

I don't remember needing to use the term "real man" lately, but if used at all, the meaning HAS changed. My list was not intended to be all inclusive - many more positive attributes could be added. We could even take this topic of masculinity and femininity (or of word usage) to a proper thread. Whistle (Anybody who wants to go back to the historical background of the US election is welcome to do so.)

But to me it is too bad we even have these stereotypes - men should not cry, women who are assertive the same as a man are considered to be aggressive and shrill - and the list goes on. I think we do a disservice to both genders with those definitions. We do have differences but the main characteristics of being human overlap. We all have estrogen and testosterone, just in different proportions.

From 1954 to 1999 in the States and Canada a rugged cowboy in nature with a cigarette was considered to be "a real man". When filtered cigarettes came out, they were considered to be feminine, as that is how they introduced them in 1924 for women. When science began to link tobacco to cancer, these "Marlboro Man" ads of filtered cigarettes were to sell them to men. And it worked - the cancer rates spiked. Even with the warning on the box. Incidentally, a number of models who have portrayed the Marlboro Man have died of smoking-related diseases. A rugged Marlboro Man was considered to be the epitome of a 'real' man.



But in the last few years - finally - it is socially acceptable for a "real man" to show his feelings and take responsibility for child rearing and not be considered feminine. So my list was meant as an update. I remember when our eight year-old-son was on his way home after giving his dog away because of his mother's bad allergies. His little lip was quivering but he was determined to keep a stiff upper lip. And his father told him, "It is all right to cry". So he did.

This is Trudeau at the funeral of those men killed recently in the Quebec mosque attack.




Some men with self-confidence to be who they are always were "real men" on the modern list, but some older men who were taught differently still cling to the old ideas of what is masculine and teach their sons and grandsons to be the same.

BTW - Bluster should never be confused with strength.



Equality is when you see a person - not a label.
Hope123
Posted: Sunday, February 19, 2017 9:32:07 AM

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Back to Trump - the man is fascinating!

In his rally in FL where he is still campaigning and getting his approval fix, he mentioned about a terrorist attack in Sweden last night. In fact it was a documentary on TV that he saw. I guess this is just true to form as he does seem to mix up reality with illusion.

"It’s not the first time President Trump has acted as though he treats television as though it were his daily intelligence briefing.

In January he launched a twitter tirade against Chicago, threatening to ‘send in the feds’ if it didn’t get tough on crime. He was referencing a Fox News show that aired moments earlier, discussing the gang-related gun-crime and killings in the troubled city.

In December, he tweeted an attack on aircraft manufacturer Boeing over the price for building a new Air Force One an hour or so after a Fox News report claiming the company was about to outsource manufacturing jobs to India." From news.com.au

Maybe he should spend more time getting briefings instead of watching so much TV.

But he doesn't need briefings as he is too smart for that. It's true. He said so himself. Whistle


Equality is when you see a person - not a label.
progpen
Posted: Sunday, February 19, 2017 9:38:01 AM

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Thank you Hope. I also think it may be a "BE/AE thingy" :-)

We have seen quite a few of those 'real men' billboards and ads in our papers (not the macho ones, the ones with men being all over the spectrum), so around here we are able to take the phrase in context and know what the intent is behind it.

I have seen "patriot" used in several venues to describe people who support our country in ways that are decidedly not jingoistic or nationalistic, but humanitarian and socially conscious.

Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter. ― Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.
Hope123
Posted: Sunday, February 19, 2017 11:10:04 AM

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Wiil - You can take this several ways. :)😈



Equality is when you see a person - not a label.
Romany
Posted: Sunday, February 19, 2017 11:47:32 AM
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The word 'patriot' being an AE/BE thingy? Yes, I think so...but I'd go further and say it was an 'AE v. most other Englishes' thing.

We don't use it as a noun but as an adjective: a patriotic duty, a patriotic act - but only in certain contexts. It's considered jingoistic and redolent of our collective past of wars and colonisation and plunder...all in the name of one's country.

And also Hollywood played a role too - building on what was an accepted meme in their own culture they put out hundreds and hundreds of war movies post-WW2. They were very generic and the US soldiers were as stereo-typical as the stereo-typical enemy and the guy who'd killed the most people was always a great 'patriot'. I guess it just completed the downfall of the word in our vocabularies!!We actually found it rather funny. (But only in that context, I hasten to add!)

Different cultures are shaped by different forces, I guess.
Hope123
Posted: Sunday, February 19, 2017 12:01:29 PM

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FounDit wrote:
Romany wrote:


“Red Sea parting?”


Yes! That’s it! We were in bondage; nearly all hope gone, nurturing the tiniest flicker of its flame; tired and weak, in a seemingly unending future of abuse and neglect; our taskmasters giving no quarter – mocking, taunting, driving us farther away from the memory of our homeland; and then – and then – The Donald appeared!

With his arrival, the clouds parted, the sun shone more brightly, the birds began to sing, and the tiny flicker of hope we had nourished for so long roared back into flame with the words he spoke unto us: “Together, we will make America great again!”

Hallelujah!
Can I get an “Amen!”?




Amen. You're in exceptional hands.



Equality is when you see a person - not a label.
progpen
Posted: Sunday, February 19, 2017 2:31:46 PM

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Romany wrote:

The word 'patriot' being an AE/BE thingy? Yes, I think so...but I'd go further and say it was an 'AE v. most other Englishes' thing.

We don't use it as a noun but as an adjective: a patriotic duty, a patriotic act - but only in certain contexts. It's considered jingoistic and redolent of our collective past of wars and colonisation and plunder...all in the name of one's country.

And also Hollywood played a role too - building on what was an accepted meme in their own culture they put out hundreds and hundreds of war movies post-WW2. They were very generic and the US soldiers were as stereo-typical as the stereo-typical enemy and the guy who'd killed the most people was always a great 'patriot'. I guess it just completed the downfall of the word in our vocabularies!!We actually found it rather funny. (But only in that context, I hasten to add!)

Different cultures are shaped by different forces, I guess.


And I am not downplaying any other cultures by choosing to use certain words for the better rather than to divide or destroy. I'm extremely well aware of the role Hollywood played in the past, but I'm also aware that it's had a role in redefining patriotism (and the word patriot) for the better as well.

Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter. ― Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.
Romany
Posted: Monday, February 20, 2017 5:17:47 AM
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Oh no, I know you aren't making comparisons Progpen; that's what I meant about different cultures having different forces work upon them which colours our understanding of a word. Back in the day, when one only watched movies at movie theatres, often Australian, British, European WW2 veterans would get up and walk out with loud comments about "bullshit", "shameful", etc. etc. during Hollywood "patriotic" propaganda films.

So, while I agree about 'taking back' words that have attracted different nuances in different cultures, I think 'patriot' is one that's lost forever. As soon as an American talks about 'patriotism' it becomes a negative concept in other minds. Especially now!

Drag0nspeaker
Posted: Monday, February 20, 2017 7:34:55 AM

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There is also local history.

"Patriot" is a terrorist idiom meaning 'terrorist'.

You didn't think "Patriot Games" meant American Patriots did you? - it was the P-IRA.


Wyrd bið ful aræd - bull!
progpen
Posted: Monday, February 20, 2017 8:36:57 AM

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Thank you again Romany and Drago. It's these kinds of discussions that I think are most valuable about TFD.

Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter. ― Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.
Yarin
Posted: Friday, February 24, 2017 3:28:03 PM
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Jeech wrote:

Well written, Foundit.

I think Donald Trump is far better than the double-faced, the Peace-Prize-winner,Obama the killer of Iraqi, Libyan, Yemani, Pakistani, Afghani people and on.... Now I can trust Americans for putting America first by avoiding to force those people to migrate to the US. Americans voted Trump not for his hair style or skin color but for speaking straightforward without chewing rehtorics. welldone America.


What? Obama the Peace-Prize-winner ?!! The person who sent all terrorists of the world to kill in Syria is a Peace-Prize-winner??!!!
What kind of peace he made? Peace of black death?
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