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Listening . . .
Posted: Wednesday, February 1, 2017 1:40:42 PM

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Lotje1000 wrote:
Hi Listening. You conveniently chose not to actually respond to what I said, merely repeating the bit about Trump supporters (which, really, we get by now) and ignoring any comparison to Muslims. So I guess I'll repeat myself:

You make an effort for us to see it's bad to vilify all Trump supporters, but you're happily supporting and justifying people who vilify all Muslims. By your logic, I guess all countries who don't agree with Trump could just ban Americans from entering their country because it is impossible to identify by physical traits whether an American is peaceful or a Trump supporter/zombie/racist/idiot (to use your words).


You are correct. I chose not to discuss Trump's new immigration policy. You are not going to hear what I have to say and how could I stop at one issue? You can hear what you want to hear in the other threads. For this thread, I will continue to find and share nice stories about nice people that counter what main stream media likes to share.
Lotje1000
Posted: Wednesday, February 1, 2017 1:48:04 PM

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I can't speak for anyone else here, but at least for me your attitude ruins the credibility of your efforts in that case.
Blaidd-Drwg
Posted: Wednesday, February 1, 2017 2:24:19 PM

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Parser. Next time you want to post something nice, post something nice. Leave off the personal insults and it will be received like any other positive post.
Listening . . .
Posted: Wednesday, February 1, 2017 2:37:39 PM

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Lotje1000 wrote:
I can't speak for anyone else here, but at least for me your attitude ruins the credibility of your efforts in that case.


No attitude intended. Anxious
Listening . . .
Posted: Wednesday, February 1, 2017 2:38:05 PM

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progpen wrote:
Parser. Next time you want to post something nice, post something nice. Leave off the personal insults and it will be received like any other positive post.


Parser? Think
Blaidd-Drwg
Posted: Wednesday, February 1, 2017 2:39:49 PM

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Listening . . . wrote:
progpen wrote:
Parser. Next time you want to post something nice, post something nice. Leave off the personal insults and it will be received like any other positive post.


Parser? Think


LOL. Sorry Listening. My apologies.
Lotje1000
Posted: Wednesday, February 1, 2017 3:31:01 PM

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Listening . . . wrote:
Lotje1000 wrote:
I can't speak for anyone else here, but at least for me your attitude ruins the credibility of your efforts in that case.


No attitude intended. Anxious


Perhaps I wasn't clear. I meant your attitude of hypocrisy, treating Trump supporters differently to Muslims and your subsequent refusal to talk about it.
Romany
Posted: Wednesday, February 1, 2017 3:59:07 PM
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Listening -

I think that you have missed out on a lot we've been saying?

We've kinda moved on from the black hat/white hat demarcation lines. Not just here on TFD, but in countries around the world.

I expect its BECAUSE we recognise the value of the human race. We don't have to watch uTube to know that there's good and bad in everyone: and that compassion and empathy are human traits (and, it appears those of many in the animal kingdom) - and are not the province of any political party, race, gender, religious conviction, community or age.

See - that's why we are resisting, all over the world, the imposition of fascism. (Which, by the way, appears to be an imperfectly understood term among members of the alt-right. However, under the universal meaning of the word, that's exactly what we're determining not to accept.

Please don't forget that so many of us have lived, or indeed do still live, under a fascist administration. We don't need to go any further down that path to know what's at the end.
Listening . . .
Posted: Wednesday, February 1, 2017 4:16:01 PM

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Lotje1000 wrote:
Listening . . . wrote:
Lotje1000 wrote:
I can't speak for anyone else here, but at least for me your attitude ruins the credibility of your efforts in that case.


No attitude intended. Anxious


Perhaps I wasn't clear. I meant your attitude of hypocrisy, treating Trump supporters differently to Muslims and your subsequent refusal to talk about it.



Thank you for clarifying, Lotje. I didn't understand that you were hoping to discuss my ability to "clear the air" with regard to all Trump supporters not being villains along with my inability to "clear the air" that all Muslims are not terrorists. In this light, I agree. All Muslims are not terrorists. I realize there are sweet little Malala's in that group and my heart bleeds for their safety and freedom. On the contrary to my message about all Trump supporters, I should clarify...not all Trump supporters are kind and caring and open-minded. As Romany so eloquently states, "...there's good and bad in everyone: and that compassion and empathy are human traits (and, it appears those of many in the animal kingdom) - and are not the province of any political party, race, gender, religious conviction, community or age."

I do not support an all-out ban but I do support extreme vetting which is what the latest policy has put in place. The countries included in the list for the newest rules were not supportive or willing to offer voluntary compliance with requests from the Obama administration. The Trump administration is putting pen to paper to make our requests a requirement. The media jumped on Trump's use of the word "ban" but, closer inspection of what is now required is actually quite respectable.

Ultimately, I just want my kids (and yours) to grow up safe and sound and know a happy and kind world.




Hope123
Posted: Wednesday, February 1, 2017 5:56:26 PM

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Quote Listening: "Ultimately, I just want my kids (and yours) to grow up safe and sound and know a happy and kind world."

That's what we all want and why we are afraid of what is happening right now with the way he does things and the people he has as advisers.

Listening, I remember posting similar info before the election on a thread discussing Canada and the US vetting process with, I believe, you and FD? If it was you, I guess you didn't believe it was adequate. But I will post the protocol again.

It will be extremely interesting when Trump finally brings in how he will vet these refugees more extremely. I/we shall all be watching very closely what all this fuss is about because here is what is happening now. These do not sound like requests to me. Edited - Maybe you can explain more so we can understand your fears. Do you really think Obama wouldn't make sure the very best was in place for his beloved girls or for the children the likes of which he cried over? And with what he tried to do about limiting guns that repeat?

::::

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2017/01/29/us/refugee-vetting-process.html?_r=0

Refugees Entering the U.S. Already
Face a Rigorous Vetting Process
By HAEYOUN PARK and LARRY BUCHANAN JAN. 29, 2017

President Trump has suspended entry of all refugees to the United States for 120 days, and he has barred Syrian refugees indefinitely. The current screening process for all refugees involves many layers of security checks before entry into the country, and Syrians were subject to an additional layer of checks. Sometimes, the process, shown below, takes up to two years.

1. Registration with the United Nations.
2. Interview with the United Nations.
3. Refugee status granted by the United Nations.
4. Referral for resettlement in the United States.
The United Nations decides if the person fits the definition of a refugee and whether to refer the person to the United States or to another country for resettlement. Only the most vulnerable are referred, accounting for less than than 1 percent of refugees worldwide. Some people spend years waiting in refugee camps.

5. Interview with State Department contractors.

6. First background check.
7. Higher-level background check for some.
8. Another background check.
The refugee’s name is run through law enforcement and intelligence databases for terrorist or criminal history. Some go through a higher-level clearance before they can continue. A third background check was introduced in 2008 for Iraqis but has since been expanded to all refugees ages 14 to 65.

9. First fingerprint screening; photo taken.
10. Second fingerprint screening.
11. Third fingerprint screening.
The refugee’s fingerprints are screened against F.B.I. and Homeland Security databases, which contain watch list information and past immigration encounters, including if the refugee previously applied for a visa at a United States embassy. Fingerprints are also checked against those collected by the Defense Department during operations in Iraq.

12. Case reviewed at United States immigration headquarters.
13. Some cases referred for additional review.
Syrian applicants must undergo these two additional steps. Each is reviewed by a United States Citizenship and Immigration Services refugee specialist. Cases with “national security indicators” are given to the Homeland Security Department’s fraud detection unit.

14. Extensive, in-person interview with Homeland Security officer.
Most of the interviews with Syrians have been done in Jordan and Turkey.

15. Homeland Security approval is required.
16. Screening for contagious diseases.
17. Cultural orientation class.
18. Matched with an American resettlement agency.
19. Multi-agency security check before leaving for the United States.

Because of the long amount of time between the initial screening and departure, officials conduct a final check before the refugee leaves for the United States.

20. Final security check at an American airport.

:::::::

Obama already tightened up the vetting process. Here's another link from November 2015.

http://time.com/4116619/syrian-refugees-screening-process/


Blaidd-Drwg
Posted: Wednesday, February 1, 2017 6:08:42 PM

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FD tried to equate our vetting process to "letting a stranger into your home", where the more accurate comparison would be inviting someone from work or church or from the local VFW hall into your house.
Hope123
Posted: Wednesday, February 1, 2017 8:02:33 PM

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Not to scare you and let's hope it never happens but in reality I'm not the only one who thinks that the temporary ban (or non ban depending upon when you hear Sean Spicer talk) is only going to increase the danger to your country. From ISIS using it as a recruiting tool, maybe of your own citizens, to not only having your enemies mad at your country, but also your allies. Edited - and if somebody of any persuasion does then attack, he'll say, "See, we were right to ban."

http://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/you-re-more-likely-die-choking-be-killed-foreign-terrorists-n715141



Good point Progpen.
Lotje1000
Posted: Thursday, February 2, 2017 2:48:22 AM

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Thank you for your clarification, Listening.
Romany
Posted: Thursday, February 2, 2017 5:12:08 AM
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America has always had the most stringent vetting process of any country. I realise that, once again, people IN America and who have never been outside of it, may not realise this. In many ways this has added to America's isolationism - you guys just don't get people who are 'different' because of the difficulties of getting a Visa. In fact, so stringent, long-winded and invasive is this process, that many people don't even bother. I promise you, you guys are safe! Any foreigner who gets entry into your country has been scrutinised up the yin-yang! (Sometimes even literally!)

Average Visa applications take about two years to come through: (took us exactly 2 years for an Aussie Visa - and hundreds of dollars - even though I had lived and been educated in Oz) and there's very little that COULD be made more stringent.

Unfortunately neither I nor the rest of the world agree that "quite respectable" describes the process of going against your own Constitution and discriminating against people because of religion. We regard it as illegal and a huge threat to a 'free' world.

I'm sure that, by now, you've read up on the reasons that people around the world, other world leaders, and the rest of America understand from the list of countries randomly chosen for banning, that this ban cannot possibly have been brought into place for 'safety' reasons? It's therefore an outrageous and very, very transparently inhumane smoke-screen to prevent discussion of what's happening between Russia and America?

will
Posted: Thursday, February 2, 2017 6:20:13 AM
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I wrote this response in reply to something specific, but the threads and conversations are so intermingled now that I have no idea which thread it was. I feel bad posting it here as the whole thread has deviated from the OP... but it's kind of on the theme of what it's become, so...

It’s important to remember just how terror groups work. Division, retaliation and escalation is their main objective. If you want to gain support for a cull of bears, there is no more effective method than poking the bear until it reacts in a way that outrages the average person.

This dangerous and unpredictable kind of social manipulation is a terrible fact of terror groups, but it’s inexcusable in any mature democracy. US foreign policy has swung in the same direction of division, retaliation and escalation, and the wider World will have to the price.


.
Blaidd-Drwg
Posted: Thursday, February 2, 2017 9:32:28 AM

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will wrote:
If you want to gain support for a cull of bears, there is no more effective method than poking the bear until it reacts in a way that outrages the average person.


Thank you Will. This is an extremely important point and happens in many different settings. The aggressor will create an environment that is unlivable for the target and then present themselves to be attacked by the target. Once attacked, the target then has no defense because they will be seen as the aggressor and the real aggressor can now attack at will and claim self defense.
Listening . . .
Posted: Thursday, February 2, 2017 10:05:37 AM

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Let's just make this thread about good news...no enemies, no sides, just humans. http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/photo-of-muslim-and-jewish-children-at-protest-wins-hearts/ar-AAmt8V7?OCID=ansmsnnews11
Romany
Posted: Friday, February 3, 2017 5:45:13 AM
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Listening,

I appreciate what you are trying to do; and your reasons behind it. They are admirable.

But the situation is far too serious by now for people to be comforted by pictures of kittens and children and nice things. THOSE are the very things people ARE resisting for already.

I think America's self-imposed inward-absorption is one of the things that got us into this position. In just under two short weeks the tables have turned and America is now the biggest threat to world peace many of us have ever experienced in our lifetimes.

If all American citizens were truly part of the world-picture; if they were taught world history (and geography!!); if they felt part of the human continuum from our wonderful shared history which made philosophy and art and classicism somethings which binds us all together; if they absorbed the fact that leadership is indivisible from duty and responsibility to ALL; then they would understand.

They would also be as aware as the rest of the world that The Orange Fascist HAS to be resisted if the world wants to survive and prosper...and ADVANCE. American isolationism means that many of its people consider 'war' in terms of 'going over there' and bombing the bejesus out of a far distant land and then coming home to an untouched homeland while people - again far away - struggle to rebuild their lives and countries.

In Europe, Africa, Asia, the South Pacific we all know what war is from personal experience - the rise of America in the 50's came about because the whole of the rest of the world was too damn busy trying to rebuild and get enough to eat!

That's never going to happen again. America isn't going to go 'over there' to fight the Russians or the Chinese or the North Koreans ...or even Europe: from now on there's no immunity for the USA: they will finally learn what war is all about and what it will do to their untouched country.

No-one wants that. We aren't enemies. We don't regard the rest of America as enemies. And, after learning from experience, we don't any longer regard the Chinese or Russians or North Koreans as 'enemies' either. We've put so much work into coming to this point: where trade and culture and a longing for peace binds us together. Where we recognise that cooperation is better for kids and kittens and happiness than war.

And once again, the world is united - not against you, or petty squabbles about who voted for whom - but against an irresponsible lout who would destroy not just his own country, but the world as it exists today. For goodness sake (truly: for the sake of goodness) look outside of your own insular 'news'. See what's happening while you guys are absorbed in your own tiny bubble of Democrats and Republicans. It's a smoke-screen to keep you occupied while other powers stealthily gain more ground and make the kinds of plans they have not been able to get away with when America was still a World Leader.

So, as I said - I can see that this is YOUR way to try for peace and I heartily endorse the sentiment. Indeed posting pictures of the kind of world we are all striving to preserve is a much better strategy than posting images of all the violence and dissension Stumph and his cohort have initiated world-wide. But all this has happened in less than 2 short weeks! We are simply prioritising - this has to stop. ASAP. Before the world does become a place of irrational hate and 'enemies' once again.
tunaafi
Posted: Friday, February 3, 2017 6:59:25 AM

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Romany wrote:
America's self-imposed inward-absorption ...

America is now the biggest threat to world peace many of us have ever experienced ...

If all American citizens were truly part of the world-picture; if they were taught world history (and geography!!) ...

American isolationism

When you think that over 50% of those Americans who voted cast their votes against Trump, and that some leading Republicans have publicly disagreed with Trump's words, this criticism of America and Americans in general seems rather harsh.

When you think that Britain is pulling out of the European Union and that several European countries are restricting immigration and building walls/fences on their borders, I don't think we Europeans are exactly in a position to be holier than thou with regard to the USA.

Looking at the rise of anti-Muslim, anti-semitic, anti-immigration words and deeds all over Europe, I don't feel that we Europeans are doing much better than Americans.


Quote:
we don't any longer regard the Chinese or Russians or North Koreans as 'enemies' either.

I doubt if many Europeans are great fans of of the Chinese, Russian or North Korean governments. I doubt if many Americans regard the Chinese, Russian and North Korean people as enemies


Quote:
And once again, the world is united

Would that it were.


.
Quote:
See what's happening while you guys are absorbed in your own tiny bubble of Democrats and Republicans.

While we in the British Isles have great love-ins where brexiters and remainers happily gambol together, unionosts and republicans in Morthern Ireland sip tea with each other, Polish and other immigrant workers know how loved, appreciated and welcomed they are by the whole country, ...
tunaafi
Posted: Friday, February 3, 2017 7:06:51 AM

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Sorry Romany. I think that the election of the pussy-grabbing, Hispanic-disparaging, Gold-Star-mother-deriding, torture-supporting narcissist is a terrible thing for the USA, democracy and the world.

However, I don't think that attacking The USA and Americans or suggesting that Europeans are superior is helping anything.
Lotje1000
Posted: Friday, February 3, 2017 7:25:12 AM

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tunaafi wrote:
Sorry Romany. I think that the election of the pussy-grabbing, Hispanic-disparaging, Gold-Star-mother-deriding, torture-supporting narcissist is a terrible thing for the USA, democracy and the world.

However, I don't think that attacking The USA and Americans or suggesting that Europeans are superior is helping anything.


I don't think Romany is suggesting that Europeans are superior at all. She was just highlighting the difference in history with regards to war, for instance. I think her main point was, in fact, that we should look beyond divisions like Us vs. Them, Republicans vs. Democrats, America vs. the World and to focus on our priorities, which is to provide decent human rights to everyone.

If this were a thread about Brexit, I think she would be posting, with just as much passion: "For goodness sake (truly: for the sake of goodness) look outside of your own insular 'news'. See what's happening while you guys are absorbed in your own tiny bubble of Leave and Remain. It's a smoke-screen to keep you occupied while other powers stealthily gain more ground."
Romany
Posted: Friday, February 3, 2017 11:02:00 AM
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Hey Tuna - Wow! Really? It's been so long since you and I communicated that you can't remember who I am?

Don't be daft, man. Of course I wasn't being superior or anti-American!
tunaafi
Posted: Friday, February 3, 2017 5:28:32 PM

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Romany wrote:
Don't be daft, man. Of course I wasn't being superior or anti-American!

I was simply responding to words you wrote, some of which I quoted verbatim.


Romany
Posted: Friday, February 3, 2017 6:42:11 PM
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Tuna -

Look, I was talking to Listening. He and I are at total opposites of every scale there could possibly be, but we've managed to maintain a cordial relationship I wouldn't upset for the world. And neither, I am equally sure, would Listening ever set out to upset me. So, in case there is the slightest doubt in Foundit's mind at all, I'll address your points.

What seems to be the point of contention really, though, seems to be my loose use of the word "American", yeah? OK, well I have explained, over the course of this long, meandering dialogue, that I'm talking of the entity represented currently by Drumph. Not of all the varied peoples who make up the population. I didn't think it would ever occur to Listening that I was being accusatory.

As to compounding my anti-Americanism with touting Europe's superiority? There you've lost me a bit. Why on earth would I do that? What would make me even think that? My life-experience is not connected to Europe's - hell, I've only been over here 3 years. What's happened in that time to make me ascribe superiority in Europe? In what field? And superior to what?

The other thing you found offensive was my referral to American isolation. I'm not sure why - it's a factor in the equation, and one which we've discussed before. I've never held Listening accountable for it however! There's also been dialogue from Foundit flatly stating that he couldn't give a damn for what they did in other countries; and endorsing this insularity as a good thing. While others live with such little knowledge that they maintain, for example, that minorities in the USA are the freest in the world. So in fact, insularity is seen as both a good thing and a bad thing. But it's still a fact and we've talked about education being key before.

As to the rest, well it was as Lotje said: we all said we would share what people are saying and thinking about it from other parts of the world, and I was trying to sketch in a background for why so many people...who DON'T live in America, think differently because of an entirely different history. But, much more that that because people, ordinary citizens all over the world have experienced war. They know what it's like in a way America, the country, has never experienced. They're trying to prevent it happening again. In America and elsewhere.

And yeah, you're right: in your interpretation it does sound harsh when I use 'you guys' because it could be taken very easily as referring directly to Listening or to all Americans in general, so yes it was clumsy. I meant "Look at the people who support isolationism and see how it's compounding the problem?"

Listening,

In the spirit of your thread and in case you did misunderstand, here's this: - I defy you not to cry. I did.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HOxUU7qmlBY
Listening . . .
Posted: Friday, February 3, 2017 11:32:37 PM

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Romany,

I shared that video with friends and family! I failed your test...couldn't hold back my tears! Music is an amazing agent that has the power to break through all kinds of barriers. Applause Applause Applause

Here's a cool story that shows not all hope is lost and people do seek to change - http://www.goodnewsnetwork.org/tattoo-parlor-covers-racist-tattoos-free-charge/
Romany
Posted: Saturday, February 4, 2017 5:05:15 AM
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Listening -

When I read your response I watched it yet again (the singing vid.) and broke out in goosebumps! It pulls up such deep feelings wondering what the different paths were that led these two strangers to that moment in the park.

That tattooist story I thought such a great idea I have posted it on my twitter account in the hope that tattooists in UK and elsewhere might get to hear about it.
Hope123
Posted: Saturday, February 4, 2017 8:31:30 PM

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Listening and Romany,

I too want the craziness to just go away, same as both of you. I hear protesting and I hear applause for what is happening. I hear about the good in people and the bad. I hear Americans, like Listening, who want peace and yet I don't see that happening any time soon with the real reality show of shock and awe taking place. T certainly did learn how to manipulate the entertainment field.

So I just want to close my eyes and ears and not talk about, yea, not even think about what seems like the finish of a civil war that started years ago - just with a different minority, and let Americans sort it out by themselves as they have to do.

And yet it is affecting the world. Two weeks and already we seem to be closer to a world war than it has ever felt like since the Bay of Pigs fiasco. The world was already in trouble and all this "I have to be strong and I alone can fix it" is making every area of the world 🌎 worse.

Even Canada now has a reality show star who says he is so popular in Canada and the US that he can parlay that into becoming leader of the Conservative Party to become Prime Minister, because he is the best candidate to deal with T. And he is doing the same divisive rhetoric about minorities and using business experience as his mantra.

And he prefers to live in Boston! And won't commit to moving back to Canada. Yet is top of the polls.

Is it really that simple - just get people to know you on a reality show? Is that how Trump got started and then got so far? I think just maybe it is. And that makes me afraid for what comes next here, on top of everything else.

Edited - Ronnie, Sonny, Arnie, Donnie

Romany
Posted: Sunday, February 5, 2017 7:20:13 AM
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Hope,

I guess the world is just crossing its fingers and waiting to see what the results of the impeachment movement which is already in progress will have. As for our leaders - I expect that they are even more overshadowed by this than even we are!
Listening . . .
Posted: Sunday, February 5, 2017 10:45:15 AM

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Hope,

I am trying to stay positive. I think the media is swaying views dangerously as they ever-so-slightly change the message of a story to tell what their viewers want to hear. I am finding stories that show the better parts of humanity - it helps. We don't agree on politics but we can agree that when a stranger's actions affect another stranger, not all hope is lost.

As Will points out in his Humanity thread, "Amid all the political posturing, nationalism and other distinctions of Us and Them, it’s easy to to forget that we all share a common culture: Humanity. The good, the bad and the ugly, Humanity comprises us all.
I strongly believe the days of disparate civilisations is no longer relevant; we are all part of an interconnected global civilisation. The future of this civilisation, how our shared humanity is shaped, is in all our hands, and our hands only.
My instinctive belief is that respect, hope, equality and reason are common virtues, fundamental to our nature and essential to our future; while division, fear and greed are self perpetuating traits that could ultimately be the downfall of us all."

These are words of wisdom as best I know. We are in this together.


Hope123
Posted: Sunday, February 5, 2017 3:03:07 PM

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Quote Listening - "We are in this together."

Applause Applause Applause

Exactly.
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