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Ashwin Joshi
Posted: Wednesday, December 28, 2016 11:42:03 AM

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Location: Jandiāla Guru, Punjab, India
The scientists are baffled about 'placebo effect'. It is something as follows:

Several times a day, for several days, you induce pain in someone. You control the pain with morphine until the final day of the experiment, when you replace the morphine with saline solution. Guess what? The saline takes the pain away. In many other cases, the control group was given sugar pellets secretly instead of medicine and Lo the control group felt the same relief as those who were given medicine.

This experiment has been performed on many groups for confirmation.
It worked.

But there is no explanation as to why it works. An unexplained phenomenon?


Me Gathering Pebbles at The Seashore.-Aj
Listening . . .
Posted: Wednesday, December 28, 2016 1:17:51 PM

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The power of the mind...
srirr
Posted: Wednesday, December 28, 2016 11:19:25 PM

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Psychology.....

Power of the mind....



We are responsible for what we are, and whatever we wish ourselves to be, we have the power to make ourselves. ~ Swami Vivekanand
thar
Posted: Thursday, December 29, 2016 7:22:42 AM

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Even weirder, placebos have been shown to work in studies even when the test subjects know they are being given placebos!

http://www.health.harvard.edu/blog/placebo-can-work-even-know-placebo-201607079926
Ashwin Joshi
Posted: Thursday, December 29, 2016 12:16:30 PM

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Location: Jandiāla Guru, Punjab, India
Wow! That's a news for me ,thar.

Me Gathering Pebbles at The Seashore.-Aj
Hope123
Posted: Thursday, December 29, 2016 1:16:30 PM

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A certain type of personality?

Until he extends the circle of his compassion to all living things, man will not himself find peace. Albert Schweitzer
progpen
Posted: Thursday, December 29, 2016 3:08:23 PM

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Hope123 wrote:
A certain type of personality?


That's what I thought too, but Radio Lab had a show about placebos and it doesn't seem to be the case.

Be kind but be fierce. You are needed now more than ever before. Take up the mantel of change. For this is your time.
will
Posted: Friday, December 30, 2016 12:42:37 PM
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The placebo effect is not as mysterious as it’s so often portrayed, especially in the media, but also, it has to be said, among some sections of the scientific community. Placebos are a useful tool in research studies – not least because (control) participants are less likely to drop out of a study if they think there is a 50/50 chance that they are still receiving the real drug.

But the placebo effect is NOT ‘mind over matter’. Speak to the hand

The placebo effect is most frequently observed in subjective data, such as level of pain relief, reduced anxiety, reduced depression etc. For example, a participant that rated their pain at 8 might reduce that to 5 after receiving a placebo, but the effect is subjective because there is no way to objectively measure physical pain reduction – this effect can also be achieved by simply consulting a medical processional... or doing yoga, or improving your diet, or just listening to music. In fact there is some evidence to suggest that the placebo effect – the simple act of intervention – is an integral part in the effectiveness of pain killers.

So placebos are known (in some cases) to have a psychological effect, but they do NOT have any direct physical effect – they do NOT reverse cancer or repair torn ligaments.

Of course there is a huge overlap between psychological and physical – thinking you are taking a ‘heart pill’ (actually pharmacologically inactive) may reduce your stress levels, and reduced stress levels may lead to a physical improvement in heart condition.

If a psychological effect is the desired effect of a therapy, then the treatment is not (by definition) a placebo, regardless of whether it's a sugar pill or pharmacologically active... if that makes sense.

The problem with placebos outside of trails is in the deception. A pharmacologically inactive pill might also not reduce stress and the patient’s risk remains unaddressed. Or a placebo may have a negative effect – nocebo effect – where, for example, the patient’s stress levels increase due to concerns about the 'drug’s' side effects, resulting in harm to the patient.
There is no justification for deception as a cure. Better results (for aliments where the placebo effect is evident) can be achieved by health and lifestyle advice… many patient’s would prefer to take a miracle pill rather than do some exercise, but that is not the issue here.

I read the study Thar link to… I wasn’t impressed. Not talking
It looks like a classic case of when you hear people say ‘scientist say that...’, when in fact they should be saying ‘the media and bloggers say that scientists say that...’

To be fair to the study, it does make clear it’s limited scope and the authors acknowledge several shortcomings. The fact that the study was funded by The National Center for Complementary and Alternative Medicine (the source of much pseudo-science) might explain why the authors released their finding in the way they did.

However, even ignoring the limited scope (and in my opinion other basic flaws) I’m not convinced their result are even clinically significant. They certainly aren’t game changing… or even news worthy?

My main objection to the validity of their conclusions is that, to my mind, all they have shown is that the placebo effect can be induced by psychological factors (in this case the supposed ‘power of placebos’). This is nothing we don’t already know.
Here is what the patients were told:

Quote:
Before randomization and during the screening, the placebo pills were truthfully described as inert or inactive pills, like sugar pills, without any medication in it. Additionally, patients were told that “placebo pills, something like sugar pills, have been shown in rigorous clinical testing to produce significant mind-body self-healing processes.”

Emphasis mine.

This is quantitatively no different than the placebo effect observed in patients who believes the pill they received might be pharmacologically effective. It’s not even that different than telling a patient that regular exercise ‘produces significant mind-body self-healing processes’. Apart from the awful ‘mind-body’ mumbo jumbo, this is already well documented – the only difference is that the advice to exercise is empirically supported.

Sorry for the over long post… got carried away. Whistle


.
will
Posted: Friday, December 30, 2016 1:19:52 PM
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Sorry, me again… I’ve also just noticed that the study subjects were recruited by adverts in newspapers for “a novel mind-body management study of IBS”...

The study claims to show placebos can have an effect without deceit, yet the subjects were told the ‘significant self-healing processes’ produced by placebos has been ‘shown in rigorous clinical testing’ – it hasn’t, this constitutes a deceit – and on top of that the subject bias is skewed toward respondents likely to be attracted to the ‘power of mind-body self healing’.

With this in mind, I’m surprised the results weren’t more significant.

The placebo effect is already known to be statistically more pronounced in cases where the subject has a ‘vested interest’ in the success of the trail, i.e. a participant suffering from Irritable Bowel Syndrome (IBS) is more likely to desire a positive test outcome than someone who doesn’t suffer from IBS, and is more susceptible to the the placebo effect.

It looks to me like the most significant finding in this study is that the control group were only slightly less prone to the placebo effect than the (possibly biased) group that were actively deceived to trigger placebo effects.

I’m putting this one down to poor research, funding interference and lazy reporting.


.
Guilherme Carbonari
Posted: Friday, December 30, 2016 7:06:19 PM

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I believe that the placebo effect works as the opposite of a curse.

If you think it's really going to do you good, it sure will. If you think you're really cursed, you will sure get sick.

If you think you can or can not do something, you will always be right.
Epiphileon
Posted: Wednesday, January 04, 2017 5:16:56 AM

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progpen wrote:
Hope123 wrote:
A certain type of personality?

High Hope, I'd bet dollars to doughnut holes there is a strong correlation with some mental behavioral characteristic, whether that particular characteristic is currently identifiable with any of the available personality assessment instruments available though is questionable.


That's what I thought too, but Radio Lab had a show about placebos and it doesn't seem to be the case.

Hi Progpen, I wouldn't completely dismiss that thought. I'd be highly surprised if there wasn't some aspect of mental behavior, that would fall under the arbitrary label we've made "personality" that is strongly correlated with the effect. As I mentioned to Hope it may just be one that isn't identified by our current instruments.

Question authority. How do you know, that you know, what you know?
Hope123
Posted: Wednesday, January 04, 2017 9:07:41 PM

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I have tried to talk myself into a placebo effect or to do mental imagery, even breathing or meditation, to help with pain or other ailments. Has never worked for me, except my stomach relaxes automatically just by repeating a phrase I used. But it doesn't last. You would have to be able to raise your endorphin levels by merely believing in something - I guess that could happen but you'd have to keep repeating it. I do know personally of a verified case of a dentist/hypnotist who had his gall bladder removed under self hypnosis with no anesthetic - in the days when they opened you up. Not many people could do that.

That's the type of personality thing I wondered about. Or of people who are highly suggestible.

I think they put too much emphasis on this "stress causes illness" these days. Stress produces cortisone and having it all the time doesn't help but I have never believed it is the main cause of illness.

As far as I am concerned, you have to remove the nail in your shoe before putting salve on the sore does any good. i.e. If it was physically real you can't imagine or pray it away or take away the laws of nature. As Will says, it is subjective data where the placebo effect shows up.


I do have a mild feeling of feeling good after exercise. But no euphoria! Exercising raises endorphin levels. So does getting a text message - it's why kids are so addicted to their phones.

Will, I hope you haven't thrown out all alternative care with the quacks. I wouldn't be alive today without MDs who were also alternative care docs. I had no where else to go when mainstream medicine ignored what I had been telling them for forty years. (I'm over my anger now of a life wasted when it needn't have been. ;) )

Until he extends the circle of his compassion to all living things, man will not himself find peace. Albert Schweitzer
Hope123
Posted: Sunday, January 08, 2017 1:53:10 PM

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An article this morning in the "Insight" section of the "Toronto Star" from the "Washington Post" says that they have discovered that there is a gene called COMT that regulates dopamine in our brain by "cleaning it up". Those with good "vacuum cleaners" are not as susceptible to the placebo effect that is ruining drug trials. If they screen out the individuals with poor dopamine vacuum cleaners, they would save a lot of money and frustration in drug trials. They have identified "more than thirty genes related to placebo effects for various conditions."

I'll see if I can get the link for the article where I got the quote.


https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/health-science/wp/2016/12/02/people-susceptible-to-the-placebo-effect-may-be-keeping-us-from-getting-new-drugs/?utm_term=.1e2ee587f658




Until he extends the circle of his compassion to all living things, man will not himself find peace. Albert Schweitzer
will
Posted: Monday, January 09, 2017 11:24:31 AM
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Hope123 wrote:
Will, I hope you haven't thrown out all alternative care with the quacks. I wouldn't be alive today without MDs who were also alternative care docs. I had no where else to go when mainstream medicine ignored what I had been telling them for forty years. (I'm over my anger now of a life wasted when it needn't have been. ;) )

My problem here would be that I've never really understood what the term ‘alternative care’ actually means. If it’s effective, it’s just care, surely. If it’s not effective, it’s not care.

Like the term ‘alternative medicine’, it strikes me as something of a misnomer; if a treatment or medicine has not been shown to work, or has been shown not to work, then it’s simply wrong to describe it as a medical therapy. We have a name for ‘alternative medicines’ and ‘natural remedies’ that have been shown to work; we call them Medicine. Angel

I’m not fundamentally against treatments that are without a strict quantifiable scientific basis. Being cared for can take various forms, and degrees of effectiveness vary vastly between individuals… there are just too many factors to make ridged distinctions. But let's not throw the baby out with the bath water. All good medicine relies on strict adherence to the scientific method. Sham medicines are at best a small comfort and at worst, dangerous.

For example, visiting a chiropractor might alleviate back pain for a whole host of reasons, from actual physical intervention to the soothing effects of whale music and the ear of a comforting practitioner. Or the proactive ritual of placing a couple of drops of water under your tongue might be all it takes to improve the perceived well being of an individual… effective care, is care. And it’s worth remembering that people often just get better, but correlation does not imply causation.

But there is an important line to be drawn. The theory of vertebral subluxations at the root of Chiropractic treatments is pure pseudoscience, and some claims of it’s efficacy are potentially dangerous quackery. Homoeopathy has been shown not to work in double-blind trials, has no scientific basis and is no more effective than a placebo. Claims that water dilutions have a ‘memory’, the theory underpinning homoeopathy, runs counter to fundamental laws of physical chemistry.

The link between the COMT gene and dopamine regulation has been know for some time. As I say, the placebo effect is known to be an integral part in the effectiveness of some pharmaceuticals. Studies have found that subjects who knew they were taking painkillers reported better results than subjects given the same painkiller secretly. This is why I don’t think too much significance should be put in the placebo effect as an effective treatment, especially if deceit is involved. Any positive effect is likely short term and unsustainable – dopamine levels, for example, will naturally return (regardless of genetic makeup) to a base level.

.

Hope123
Posted: Thursday, January 12, 2017 6:25:11 PM

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Will, alternative care should really be called complementary to mainstream medicine care. Mainstream is what American and Canadian doctors are taught in med school. Complementary care doctors are willing to look at other causes of good health such as nutrition. The ones I went to were MDs first and then studied or learned more because they found mainstream medicine was not enough to help their patients with the way they wanted to help. And it was great to get both types of care from one doctor, but they are hard to find.

Yet complementary care doctors are vilified and are often the target of witch hunts by mainstream medical associations in Canada and the US. Police - with guns drawn - went into a MD's office in the US because he was prescribing a natural remedy that mainstream didn't think he should be - as if it were a typical drug problem! Three of my doctors were investigated by the CMA and nothing came of it. The one was using diluted serum under the tongue drops or injections for allergy (not homeopathy) and for this he was investigated. Now pharmaceutical companies make similar preparations but in sublingual pill form (my gran takes them for grass allergy) and now it is considered to be a legit practice.

My last doctor (the best one I've ever had) was a member of ACAM in the US and also came to Canada one day a week. He was trained as an MD at U of Toronto. He paid a medical person to read all the latest medical literature to direct him to anything new in the fields he was interested in. And he was not afraid to try anything that would not hurt but might help the differing problems of his many patients who all respected his judgment. (He saved my butt three times - and I'm not exaggerating.)

Mainstream MDs get only a few hours study about nutrition and body chemistry. They have thrown out the wisdom of herbs that has been learned from past generations in favor of drugs. Drugs with all their additives and excipients. I discovered that taking an aspirin for pain helps me for half an hour and then the pain actually increases as my body reacts to the excipients in the tablet, and not the drug itself. I know because I can take a tincture of white willow bark which is where ASA originally came from and it helps my pain with no adverse effects. I had to discover that through trial and error by myself.

Chelation to remove toxic metals has been known since World War I, yet the CMA still does not recognize it. My insurance company dental coverage will pay for only the cost of amalgam made from mercury in tooth fillings. They know how toxic mercury is but they still put it in people's mouths (and even inject it in flu shots), although most dentists now will not use the amalgam in order to protect themselves.

While getting my chelation I have talked to other patients who were there for heart issues and they all said chelation had helped them. Yet when there was to be a scientific trial in the US (I was going to be part of) to find out exactly what the benefits of chelation are, the study was quietly shut down by mainstream medicine. We were disappointed. Then they say there are no scientific studies as proof.

It often takes mainstream medicine many years to look into ideas that complementary medicine has been espousing for years. For instance, in 1980 my complementary care MD told me to stop using plastic for food and water storage, and especially not to heat it. I use glass or stainless steel even today. When did mainstream medicine finally tell people about BPA and the different kinds of plastic? Only a few years ago. I may have used this example before on TFD - I don't remember.

Chiropractors today can help people by stopping pain by keeping the joints from pressing on nerves. They do not do anything without x-rays, and they do not claim to cure anything. This is an old-fashioned idea about chiropractic. If they see anything suspicious, they send you to an MD. They have classes and teach proper posture and exercises to strengthen muscles. I have been to chiropractors in Canada, the US, and in Mexico. Nowadays, they do a lot of soft tissue work and use other therapies before they resort to manual adjustment. Chiropractors and masseuses keep me going without the need for drugs.

I don't believe in homeopathy nor the spiritual energy stuff, and watch for placebo effect. But I cannot explain why I discovered quite by accident that a few drops of homeopathic arnica will stop a leg cramp within a few seconds. Maybe it is the tiny amount of alcohol in the preparation. But it works time after time for that. Does not do much for the pain it is supposed to help.

Chinese medicine and herbs, including acupuncture, can be effective if you get a doctor trained, preferably in China, who knows what he is doing.

Mainstream medicine is great for acute illness and injury but not so great for chronic problems. I would always do mainstream medicine for cancer, but would also find out what complementary care practices, if timed correctly, would not interfere with traditional methods.

Over the years I have "picked the brains" of many doctors of many specialties and of paramedicals as well. Then I use whatever works for me.

Disclaimer - nothing I have said here is to be taken as a prescriotion for anyone else.


Until he extends the circle of his compassion to all living things, man will not himself find peace. Albert Schweitzer
leonAzul
Posted: Sunday, January 15, 2017 12:07:51 AM

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Ashwin Joshi wrote:
The scientists are baffled about 'placebo effect'. It is something as follows:

Several times a day, for several days, you induce pain in someone. You control the pain with morphine until the final day of the experiment, when you replace the morphine with saline solution. Guess what? The saline takes the pain away. In many other cases, the control group was given sugar pellets secretly instead of medicine and Lo the control group felt the same relief as those who were given medicine.

This experiment has been performed on many groups for confirmation.
It worked.

But there is no explanation as to why it works. An unexplained phenomenon?


Scientists are not baffled by it. There was a scientist named Pavlov who elucidated it quite well. It's called 'conditioned response', and it has its place among therapeutic modalities.

It is the literal-minded superstitious consumers who conflate palliative or motivational therapies with evidence-based therapies that are efficacious against specific pathologies.

Chicken soup is always good, but not particularly effective against syphilis. ;)

"Make it go away, Mrs Whatsit," he whispered. "Make it go away. It's evil."
Hope123
Posted: Sunday, January 15, 2017 6:58:57 AM

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Location: Burlington, Ontario, Canada
Quote Leon - "Chicken soup is always good, but not particularly effective against syphilis. ;) "

And it hasn't done a darn thing for my respiratory infection. 🙁 I didn't plan it that way. I just had some homemade chicken soup on hand.

Nor has anything I have tried for ten days - off to get antibiotics.

Until he extends the circle of his compassion to all living things, man will not himself find peace. Albert Schweitzer
will
Posted: Monday, January 16, 2017 9:09:27 AM
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Hi, Hope

I don’t really have an issue with the gist of what you’re saying. I think the points you make in your penultimate post I’ve already covered in my post preceding it. I may not have been as clear as I could have been; leonAzul certainly captured my general point more concisely.

Pedlars of Woo like to conflate the ‘soft’ fringes of science with all manner of unsubstantiated claims. This has translated in common usage to a false dichotomy between ‘alternative’ as opposed to ‘mainstream’, ‘natural’ verses ‘Pharma’.
There is a distinction, but it’s simply between that which abides by strict methodology and high standards of evidence -- the marks of good science – and that which does not.

For example you say:
Hope123 wrote:
Complementary care doctors are willing to look at other causes of good health such as nutrition.

This is simply care based on exactly the same empiricism that guides ‘mainstream’ medical care. Just because good health and nutrition doesn’t fall into this (erroneously) perceived category of ‘mainstream pharmaceuticals’ does not mean it belongs in a group with mystic healing.
What you describe should be standard in healthcare. It’s absence sounds to me more like shortcomings in ‘legitimate’ healthcare, rather than any credit due to ‘alternative’ care.

I do have a few specific points for you to consider.
Hope123 wrote:
Police - with guns drawn - went into a MD's office in the US because he was prescribing a natural remedy that mainstream didn't think he should be - as if it were a typical drug problem!

There are so many unknowns in this anecdote.
Was this a remedy defined empirically – shown to be safe and affective – or was it a ‘remedy’ according to the subjective whim of an individual or group? If it’s the latter, I’m sure I don’t need to point out the danger of uncontrolled prescription of, for example, Aconite. Or the improper administering of controlled substances. Or the potential fraud involved in expensive treatments based on false claims. It may be that the case you cite was not dangerous or fraudulent but, without the standard of clinical proof, who gets to decide where the line is drawn?

Likewise with your example of therapies (or substances) now absorbed into the ‘mainstream’. Opioids are now widely used in modern medicine, but that’s not a legitimate argument for the re-opening of opium dens.

Respectfully, I would seriously advise you to reconsider the available data on chelation therapy.

Here’s a detailed objection that covers the general issues (although specific to the trail I think you may have been referring to).

And my shortened version: Chelation therapy is a very specific, specialized, medical treatment for removal of heavy metals in very specific medical cases. There is zero credible evidence for it’s effectiveness outside of these specific, special, cases. There is quite a bit of evidence of it’s ineffectiveness, and there is even some evidence of significant harm, including death.

In all seriousness, have you considered that alternative treatments may actually be the cause of your on-going problems? It's worth considering.

Supporting evidence for chelation therapy in the 1920’s was sketchy at best and it’s use was mainly due to the lack of other available treatments. Since then numerous superior empirically supported treatments, that achieve the same (unsupported) claims of chelation therapy, have become widely available. It’s unproven and unnecessary.

An extreme analogy might be to compare surgical craniotomies as a specific medical procedure in critical circumstances, with GP’s trepanning as a cure for migraines or hysteria.

Hope123 wrote:
...the study was quietly shut down by mainstream medicine. We were disappointed. Then they say there are no scientific studies as proof.

Hope123 wrote:
It often takes mainstream medicine many years to look into ideas that complementary medicine has been espousing for years.

Sorry, this makes me a little cross. Apart from the fact that there are, in this case, plenty of studies that disprove the claims made by chelationists, this is little more than a logical fallacy with a touch of conspiracy theory thrown in for good measure. All modern medicine has evolved from what was once folk-lore. But it does not follow that all folk-lore is likely to be scientifically valid. And besides, given the success of this process of evolution, why would an entire scientific community conspire to suppress one particular treatment or potential cure without good reason?

Quote:
Chiropractors today can help people by stopping pain by keeping the joints from pressing on nerves. They do not do anything without x-rays,

Did you mean to say ‘they do not do anything without x-rays’?
Historically one of the most serious charges against chiropractors has been the indiscriminate and potentially harmful use of x-rays. It’s my understanding that, due to external and internal criticism, the use of x-rays has been reduced in recent years. There is a strong argument – even from some chiropractors – against any use of x-rays in chiropractic care. Chiropractic subluxation is psudoscience, plain and simple, and has never been clinically identified on x-rays. There is no evidence to suggest x-rays have any use in the diagnosis of colic, asthma, IBS or any other ailment… because there is zero evidence to suggest spinal alignment has any role in such conditions.

Quote:
... and they do not claim to cure anything. This is an old-fashioned idea about chiropractic

A chiropractor local to me has been quoted as telling her patients that she can ‘sense’ cancer, and I know that she has treated babies for colic and children for asthma. Chiropractic treatment has been shown to have no clinical effect on these conditions beyond the placebo and regression to the mean. The above is anecdotal, but an internet search for the terms like ‘chiropractic’, ‘subluxation’ and ‘asthma’, or ‘colic’, and even ‘cancer’ will return numerous practitioners making unsubstantiated claims. I’d go as far as to say that unsubstantiated claims are still quite standard.

The drug free treatments you go on to describe are no different than basic physiotherapy, which is based on good science and is properly regulated. I don’t doubt that many chiropractors are basically just performing physiotherapy; it’s a shame more don’t train as physiotherapists and then we might have better care systems, without all the mystic mumbo jumbo historically associated with chiropractics.

Hope123 wrote:
I don't believe in homeopathy nor the spiritual energy stuff, and watch for placebo effect

Don’t watch for the placebo effect!.. that’s the only proven benefit. And if it does no harm it doesn’t really matter what people turn to. I’m not a ‘spiritual’ person, clearly, but what may not be evident from my presence on this forum, is that I’m a big fan of the restorative effects of hugging. Even the most reluctant of ‘victims’ come out of a hug feeling better... even if that is due to the relief of being released. Angel


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Hope123
Posted: Monday, January 16, 2017 9:07:06 PM

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Hey, Will. Great discussion here!

And I'm going to digress even further from the placebo part as it seems everyone has said what they want about it.

I am grateful that quite the contrary to your idea that alternative therapy might be what's causing my problems - the one I had, chelation, has given me back my life! I was tempted to list all the symptoms that have gradually disappeared over the course of the last several years during which I had at least 75 chelation treatments done properly and with no adverse reactions or damage to organs. (We had to keep track of the number and report every time as to any concerns or improvements. Plus do further tests for improvements. Mercury levels in their test should be zero but most people test at 4. I was 93 in mercury with six other toxic metals way beyond normal levels. They attract each other and nickel is the one that causes severe allergy in predisposed people. I was down to 8 in mercury when I quit going - I listened to my body which said - enough.) I have had only one maintenance chelation treatment in the last two years. In fact my family doctor just looked at my routine blood tests and told me "to keep up the good work, that I am healthy, and my test results are those of a teenager". I laughed and told her I'd probably live TOO long. She laughed too. I was only half kidding.

In another way I am grateful for my problems - in 1980 I put my family on a lifestyle change in many areas such as of limited exposures to chemicals wherever and whenever possible, and we started eating fresh food home prepared like our grandparents had in their diets.

I was trying to give you my first hand (recognizing it is only anecdotal) knowledge/experience as I get the idea you do not have that experience if you think it is just a matter of Mainstream and Complementary Care all being therapies that should blend together. Oh how I wish that were so!

But it is a matter of ideology - mainstream's emphasis is on the control of symptoms through drugs and surgery, and Complementary Care is on causes and getting the whole body to heal itself to OPTIMUM levels. Hence it is sometimes called 'Holistic' Medicine. And it adheres to high standards of science as much as mainstream.

Quote Will "What you describe should be standard in healthcare. It’s absence sounds to me more like shortcomings in ‘legitimate’ healthcare, rather than any credit due to ‘alternative’ care." EXACTLY. A better label still would be Integrative Medicine. Not likely to happen any time soon.

If something is not taught in med school, then MD mainstream frown upon it. And according to NCBI, nutrition education in med schools was still inadequate in 2008. Maybe that is changing the last 8 years?

I am never going to say one is better than the other - I am saying we need both and it is too bad they can't all work together.

You have no idea how many times I have been given opposite opinions for the same problem and have had to figure it out for myself. As I write this I realize that all the main diagnoses that have contributed to my better health now were made by my Complementary Care MDs. But I need mainstream medicine too and without it, my husband would not be here now. And my docs were all in both fields.

I love your sense of humor - I laughed when I read your trepanning and opium den analogies. (I do have a weird sense of humor.) I could almost imagine them. I was talking about plastic use, pesticide use, sublingual allergy treatments - that type of thing. Every profession needs to learn and adjust - even some doctors admit medicine just does it very slowly. I don't think they needed double blind studies to discover the bad effects of plastics in heated food storage.


Until he extends the circle of his compassion to all living things, man will not himself find peace. Albert Schweitzer
Hope123
Posted: Monday, January 16, 2017 9:17:49 PM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 3/23/2015
Posts: 7,409
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Location: Burlington, Ontario, Canada
Another point Will - and I know you have my best interests at heart for mentioning this paper -

Quote Will - "Here’s a detailed objection that covers the general issues (although specific to the trail I think you may have been referring to)."

I checked the link. I'm not sure but I think the one I was told about was supposed to be later. Maybe around 2010. It was later on in my therapy and I didn't get diagnosed and start treatment until 2006. (despite telling mainstream Canadian and American doctors and specialists in several cities, even Complementary Care MDs, since 1963, that my health problems started after a mercury exposure in 1963) I didn't know much about the trial as they were just talking about it and I realize now I probably wouldn't have been considered if it was for CAD only, which I don't have. (coronary artery disease) I had thought it was for all benefits and for his practice.

I must admit I didn't read all 227 pages of obviously biased repetitious information with inflammatory language on that report that even accused the doctors of fraud through incorrect billing, an accusation made with no proof. I suppose there is at least one bad apple in every group, but all my docs are scrupulous about such billing matters. It is a perfect example of what I was talking about that my docs had to overcome.

My chelation doc told me in 2006 that the chelation he was doing does not remove calcium which was the theory about how it worked with CAD. I checked on that with my doctor before I did it because I was concerned it might make my osteoporosis worse. (and it didn't) In fact my bone density level went up in one area. And at one point he used EDTA in progression after the more powerful drugs. People who were getring the EDTA for CAD were not getting vitamins indiscriminately. If they were there they were a specific purpose in the chelation. I forget now even what was in mine - it's been a while.

There is risk in every medical procedure but when the benefits outweigh the risk, you take the chance. I really had no choice - it was the only option.

Furthermore, there is evidence that the $100 billion dollar business of stents and bypass surgery firmly affixed in mainstream medicine may relieve pain and make people more comfortable but does not alter final outcomes in heart disease.


Quotes are from this article - another perspective on benefits of chelation and CAD. Written by a cardiologist in 2013.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/harlankrumholz/2013/03/27/chelation-therapy-what-to-do-with-inconvenient-evidence/#3f253f161728

"The trial, published in JAMA, compared 839 patients who had a heart attack. They randomized these individuals to chelation with 869 to a placebo infusion. To the surprise of many (including me), after almost 5 years of follow-up, the chelation group had a lower risk of the combination of death, heart attack, stroke, hospitalization for angina or a procedure to improve blood flow to the heart. There was an 18% lower risk in the chelation group – and for about every 25 patients treated with chelation, there was one few adverse event. Also, there were no safety issues. This trial, like most others, has some limitations - but it is a positive trial...
The irony is that if a drug manufacturer had gotten this result, they would have celebrated...
The answer is more than just a reluctance to accept results that we do not like (though medicine is not beyond that behavior – see the slowness with which medicine adopts new information into practice). I believe that the answer here is that when confronted with a truly surprising result that is hard to explain. In this situation we need to examine our assumptions – and the consequences of being wrong. The amount of evidence we require may vary based on the treatment...I am glad that we are subjecting popular but out of the mainstream practices to rigorous study. If I endorse that course I cannot ignore the evidence because it goes against what I expected. But I need to interpret the findings through the totality of what is known about it and determine if it is really ready for prime time. In this case, I want to see more studies of this approach to be sure. However, this study has opened my mind to the possibility that there may be something more to this therapy than I originally thought. And given what I thought about it before, I can hardly believe I am writing that."


Until he extends the circle of his compassion to all living things, man will not himself find peace. Albert Schweitzer
Hope123
Posted: Monday, January 16, 2017 9:31:35 PM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 3/23/2015
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Location: Burlington, Ontario, Canada
As for that case about drugs and police I mentioned and also chiropractors -

L-tryptophan is a precursor to serotonin. For a while it was illegal in Canada and I expect in the US too because a batch was contaminated with, I think, lead. It is now available in Canada and probably in the US too, once they found out it was just one batch. Anyhow, the doctor said his lawyer told him that since his batch was uncontaminated it was all right to dispense it, which was not true. The police were told illegal drugs, and assumed cocaine etc. so went in with guns drawn. Two sides to every story. As a Canadian, the guns drawn bit at a doctor's office seemed over the top to me.

But there is no question that Complementary Care doctors are continuously being harassed in Canada and probably the US because they use different methods. Both of my Complementary Care doctors had to fight legal battles but managed to keep their licences.

As for chiropractors, dogs can smell cancer, but that chiropractor telling people she can sense cancer gives others a bad name. I have been in Chiropractic offices in three major FL cities and goodness knows how many cities in Canada where we lived or visited, and even in Cancun, MX. Never once was anything addressed except back pain and exercises. If I ever mentioned a symptom that was not bone/muscle related, I was told to see my MD. So I can only go by my own experiences, which are, as always, only anecdotal. Perhaps chiropractors are more respected in Canada. Until it became too costly, they were covered by our doctor/hospital plan, and now our private medical picks up the cost. Some Canadian MDs have been referring their patients to them for neuromuscular and joint problems for many years.

I have never heard "whale music" in a chiropractor's office! The only "wail" music Whistle I hear is at the masseuse and I tell her to turn it off. Waves breaking is not soothing to me!

And here is part of an ad from a Chiropractic Office in a nearby city -

"Chiropractors are experts trained in the neuromusculoskeletal system. They diagnose and treat disorders of the spine and other body joints by adjusting the spinal column or through other corrective manipulation.They also advise patients on corrective exercises, lifestyle and nutrition. Among the conditions your Mississauga chiropractors treat are:

Back and Neck Pain
Headaches and Migraines
Fibromyalgia
Whiplash
Sciatica"

When I said x-rays, I assumed a chiropractor will make sure nothing is broken before he will try to do anything for a new patient, especially if it is a new complaint. That was MY assumption but come to think of it, our chiro has never sent us in 16 years for an x-ray - we were getting treatment before we met him. The only back x-rays I've ever had were by an MD and I took them with me to the chiropractor way back when. I had no idea they were condemned for too many xrays. I've had far too many xrays in my life - all for traditional medicine purposes. (Plus we used to play with the xray machine in the shoe store. Are you old enough to remember those?)

But why I mentioned it was last week I saw for the first time our chiropractor send a crying young boy after a skiing accident for an x-ray. Seemed smart to me.

I would think there are good and bad practitioners in every field - one has to assess and change if one runs into a bad doctor or paramedical.

Thanks for the hug. They are great, they are free, and they can be returned. So here's one back!


Until he extends the circle of his compassion to all living things, man will not himself find peace. Albert Schweitzer
Hope123
Posted: Monday, January 16, 2017 9:33:32 PM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 3/23/2015
Posts: 7,409
Neurons: 42,807
Location: Burlington, Ontario, Canada


Until he extends the circle of his compassion to all living things, man will not himself find peace. Albert Schweitzer
leonAzul
Posted: Saturday, January 21, 2017 12:56:16 AM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 8/11/2011
Posts: 8,129
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Location: Miami, Florida, United States
Hope123 wrote:

As for chiropractors, dogs can smell cancer, but that chiropractor telling people she can sense cancer gives others a bad name. I have been in Chiropractic offices in three major FL cities and goodness knows how many cities in Canada where we lived or visited, and even in Cancun, MX. Never once was anything addressed except back pain and exercises. If I ever mentioned a symptom that was not bone/muscle related, I was told to see my MD. So I can only go by my own experiences, which are, as always, only anecdotal. Perhaps chiropractors are more respected in Canada. Until it became too costly, they were covered by our doctor/hospital plan, and now our private medical picks up the cost. Some Canadian MDs have been referring their patients to them for neuromuscular and joint problems for many years.


This is an interesting observation — please note that I reside in the state of Florida — to which I would like to add an observation of my own.

In the last two decades I have noticed ever more chiropractors becoming accredited and applying modalities more traditionally associated with osteopaths, while the board certified osteopathologists conspicuously advertise modalities formerly associated with the Palmer school of chiropractic. In other words, self-identified chiropractors are becoming more evidence-based, including traditional pre-med sequences in their course work, whilst osteopathic doctors are including "alternative" modalities — a broad array of hokum that is most charitably described as placebo — in order to attract more clients.

"Make it go away, Mrs Whatsit," he whispered. "Make it go away. It's evil."
leonAzul
Posted: Saturday, January 21, 2017 1:37:12 AM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 8/11/2011
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Hope123 wrote:


This Disney-fied love-fest doesn't hold a candle to the original Ernest H. Shepherd drawings.



<3

"Make it go away, Mrs Whatsit," he whispered. "Make it go away. It's evil."
will
Posted: Monday, January 23, 2017 9:54:48 AM
Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 6/29/2009
Posts: 1,073
Neurons: 4,325
Hope123 wrote:
But it is a matter of ideology - mainstream's emphasis is on the control of symptoms through drugs and surgery, and Complementary Care is on causes and getting the whole body to heal itself to OPTIMUM levels. Hence it is sometimes called 'Holistic' Medicine. And it adheres to high standards of science as much as mainstream.

I would just like to comment on this section, because the fact that you’ve emphasised in bold suggests you are making a definite and considered point... I’m afraid to say I reject virtually every word of it.

If you go to a medical professional with the symptoms of a viral infection, you will be treated with medication (scientifically proven as) most effective for that specific viral infection. This is NOT ‘control of symptoms’, it’s curing the cause. If you go to the doctor with the symptoms of a bacterial infection, you will be treated with the most suitable antibiotic. This is NOT ‘control of symptoms’, it’s curing the cause.

That said, symptoms are frequently more serious than the cause, and are rightly controlled to alleviate suffering, but this is routinely alongside best efforts to cure the underlying cause.

This is a perfectly logical response, with a long and hugely successful track record. It is NOT an ideology – certainly not in the same sense as unsubstantiated claims along the theme of Vitalism.

There is no intrinsic value to the term 'holistic', it's simply a cover all term quacks use to avoid specifics, leaving correlation of cause and effect open to anecdote and interpretation. A medical professional could prescribe antibiotics for a viral infection and call it a ‘holistic’ approach, but this would be medically pointless and potentially harmful, and if he/she where to do such a thing regularly they would likely, and quite rightly, face criticism and even lose their licence to practice -- including in a theoretical scenario where every patient happened to fully recover (due to some unknown factor).

I simply don’t understand why anyone would suggest that treating – including control, if cure is not possible – the actual symptoms of a illness is anything other than the most pragmatic approach.

However, if you want a ‘holistic’ approach to mainstream medicine, you couldn’t hope for a better example than vaccination programs. The scientific rigour that makes herd immunity possible has saved, and continues to save, literally millions of lives.

Prior to Edward Jenner’s work on vaccines – one of the most important moments in the history of science based medicine – smallpox was killing something like 500,000 people a year in Europe alone. Smallpox has now been eradicated, due to scientific empiricism and a truly holistic approach that objectively evaluates all the facts.

Yet despite these amazing advances in healthcare, the success of vaccination programmes is still under constant threat from misinformation spread by Alternative Quackery and the ignorance spouted by other notable buffoons.

Folk remedies are the root of the majority of today’s Alternative Care. In the era when folk remedies were the only available option disease was rampant, child mortality rates were high and general life expectancy was short. Alternative medicines and other pseudo-science is a luxury we can only afford today due to our general good health, which is a direct result of the proven effectiveness of science based medicine, hygiene, treatments and general health advice.

I can’t stress this enough... any medicine, treatment or lifestyle advice that, in your words, ‘adheres to high standards of science as much as mainstream’ is quite simply the very definition of science based medical care. Whereas undefined diagnoses, indirect and non-specific ‘holistic’ treatments, scientifically unproven remedies, unsubstantiated claims and anecdotal success stories are categorically not.

Sorry if I come across as overly strident. I’m sure it won’t surprise you to hear that I remain unmoved. And I doubt there’s much more I can say on the subject. I’m happy to leave it at that, there’s no point flogging a dead horse… and certainly no point in realigning it’s chakras. Whistle



.
Hope123
Posted: Monday, January 23, 2017 6:00:38 PM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 3/23/2015
Posts: 7,409
Neurons: 42,807
Location: Burlington, Ontario, Canada
leonAzul wrote:
Hope123 wrote:

As for chiropractors, dogs can smell cancer, but that chiropractor telling people she can sense cancer gives others a bad name. I have been in Chiropractic offices in three major FL cities and goodness knows how many cities in Canada where we lived or visited, and even in Cancun, MX. Never once was anything addressed except back pain and exercises. If I ever mentioned a symptom that was not bone/muscle related, I was told to see my MD. So I can only go by my own experiences, which are, as always, only anecdotal. Perhaps chiropractors are more respected in Canada. Until it became too costly, they were covered by our doctor/hospital plan, and now our private medical picks up the cost. Some Canadian MDs have been referring their patients to them for neuromuscular and joint problems for many years.


This is an interesting observation — please note that I reside in the state of Florida — to which I would like to add an observation of my own.

In the last two decades I have noticed ever more chiropractors becoming accredited and applying modalities more traditionally associated with osteopaths, while the board certified osteopathologists conspicuously advertise modalities formerly associated with the Palmer school of chiropractic. In other words, self-identified chiropractors are becoming more evidence-based, including traditional pre-med sequences in their course work, whilst osteopathic doctors are including "alternative" modalities — a broad array of hokum that is most charitably described as placebo — in order to attract more clients.


Interesting. I think there was a DO in the group of MDs I saw when we lived half the year in Ft. Myers for several years but if I saw him it was only while he was on call. And that was in the eighties and nineties. I don't think DOs are very popular in Canada, around here anyhow, but of course Canada is a big country.

The chiropractic office that helped my husband and I the last four winters in Naples had all kinds of equipment and treatments. They had just opened a new facility - quite the place. We went to lectures and the chiropractor we saw who did traditional manipulation was the one who gave me better strengthening exercises for my specific problem so I would need to be manipulated less. I do those exercises daily. I am trying to remember the name of the clinic in case you are ever interested.

Edited - got it. https://www.yelp.com/biz/hiler-chiropractic-and-decompression-center-naples-4

A bridge between allopathic and alternative care is how they advertise and the owner is a chiropractic neurologist. I never checked his qualifications as a neurologist because our problems are strictly mechanical and not related to such diseases as diabetes. And we saw his associate anyhow.

I even wrote to tell him we won't be back and to thank him for his help as when physiotherapists, podiatrists, and MD doctors had not been able to isolate the problem, he was able to be of great help to me. And my husband as well.

Love the photo - thanks. It is much nicer!




Until he extends the circle of his compassion to all living things, man will not himself find peace. Albert Schweitzer
Hope123
Posted: Monday, January 23, 2017 6:38:31 PM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 3/23/2015
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Location: Burlington, Ontario, Canada
Hi Will. You are never strident and it is not anything I have not heard before.

I am going to respond one last time on the thread because you and I actually agree on most points.

I am not anti pharmaceutical nor anti traditional medicine. I do not believe there is conspiracy in those professions. All I ever intended to say was to not include everything that is not taught in Med school as quackery.

The practice of medicine is an art as well as a science and there is always room for improvement and new findings. It should not matter who finds the new ideas but that they should be carefully evaluated by all and used by all if appropriatel. But that does not always happen as there is often antipathy to change and unwillingness to believe that something different might be better. This is true in all scientific fields. I'm not saying it is a bad thing for mainstream medicine to be slow about adopting new practices, as research needs to be done. I AM saying they need to be more openminded to new ideas. And these ideas often come from those doctors who have gone beyond what they were taught in med school.

In fact I am amazed at all the advancement in medicine and drugs in my lifetime. For instance - the wonderful new drug called antibiotics that saved my baby sister's life in the forties. Antibiotics which are losing their efficacy from overuse in veterinary practices as well as in human medicine when given for viruses for which they do absolutely nothing. We have eaten antibiotic and hormone free food for 37 years, before it ever became THE thing to do, ever since I saw the first alternative care doc and I changed our lifestyles from the standard American diet and way of life.

My statement you quoted was meant as a general comparison of overall outlook and one did not preclude the other. I was not explicit enough. But surely you do admit that the emphasis of traditional medicine is on drugs and surgery as I said. What else do they have?

I have no use for anti vaxxers who have no idea what it is like to have a childhood friend get polio and be afraid you yourself as a child would end up in an iron lung. Or who selfishly use the herd method and cause epidemics as in CA right now of such things as measles that were pretty much eradicated.

Quote Will - "I can’t stress this enough... any medicine, treatment or lifestyle advice that, in your words, ‘adheres to high standards of science as much as mainstream’ is quite simply the very definition of science based medical care. Whereas undefined diagnoses, indirect and non-specific ‘holistic’ treatments, scientifically unproven remedies, unsubstantiated claims and anecdotal success stories are categorically not."

****** Absolutely agree. Applause Applause Applause

All I was telling you from experience that principle and practice do not always follow between the two groups of doctors I mention here now, especially in the realm of new ideas.

There are definitely some quacks out there, so one needs an active BS meter, but I have been on both sides of the fence since 1980. I have been telling you about upstanding medical practitioners who are to be respected - trained DOs and Naturopaths (I have never gone to one of them but know their qualifications), Chiropractors, and finally the group that I see who are MDs with extra studies in the fields that interest them. These practitioners at least should not be included with such fields as the Eastern Medicines of Chakras about which the efficacy of their basic tenets I know nothing. And one cannot evaluate something if one has had no experience nor learned about it, so I have no substantiated opinion about such ideas as Chakras. Also, I have never heard of the Vitalism you mention.

Holistic means the whole body, and not just one symptom or disease/disorder often treated by MD specialists. The last three years my husband has felt like a ping pong ball amongst four specialists and the family doctor - and I was the one two years ago who said if nobody can find what's wrong it has to be your meds - turns out two years later they finally listened to him and I was right. And last appointment the cardiologist was annoyed he had to think about the blood condition. Ticked my husband off when the doc said that - and my husband's a very mellow kind of guy. Besides his MDs he has used only a chiropractor for over 50 years to help with an extra partially formed spinal vertebra. I on the other hand have had more help from alternative care MDs as I have mentioned. That's why I go to bat for both kinds of medicine when I hear anything that sounds as if all alternative care is being called quackery and I was trying to clarify that with you with my original comment.

Anyhow, as you say, best we leave it there. I just didn't want you to think we disagree fundamentally, because I don't think we do.




Until he extends the circle of his compassion to all living things, man will not himself find peace. Albert Schweitzer
will
Posted: Wednesday, January 25, 2017 8:41:42 AM
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Joined: 6/29/2009
Posts: 1,073
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Hope123, you can’t agree to leave it and then ask a direct question… that don’t work. Speak to the hand

Hope123 wrote:
My statement you quoted was meant as a general comparison of overall outlook and one did not preclude the other. I was not explicit enough. But surely you do admit that the emphasis of traditional medicine is on drugs and surgery as I said. What else do they have?

Did you mean ‘traditional medicine’ in this sentence? I doesn’t fit with my understanding in this context.

The kind of pseudo-science I’m highlighting has a history of re-branding itself in an attempt to shrug off increasing weights of counter evidence – Eastern, Alternative, and latterly, in an attempt to garner some halo effect credibility, Complimentary and Integrative medicine. In the New Age phase it became popular to refer to evidence and science based medicine as ‘traditional’. It’s become something of an contronym, at least when used by proponents of Woo.

TFD definition here

Wiki article here

Assuming you mean evidence and science based medicine, or mainstream, for the sake of argument…

Where the evidence and science supports drugs or surgery... well, yeah. This is kinda like saying that the emphasis of car mechanics is on car parts and mechanical repairs. In the absence of any objectively viable alternative, it is what it is. Good care and regular servicing is no bad thing, but the depth of tyre tread is irrelevant if your head gasket has blown. A wash and wax is no help if your diesel engine becomes contaminated with petrol.

But in general, no, I don’t agree that the emphasis is on drugs and surgery. You are repeating the same myth. You can talk about overlapping care – Integrative and Complimentary – but by imposing a narrow (false) definition on mainstream – the myth of big pharma and invasive surgery – you open the door to all manner of alternative quackery. This is a form of continuum fallacy, with pseudo-science piggybacking off all those evidence and science based treatments you have excluded from ‘mainstream’.

Mainstream health care puts huge emphasis on prevention through (evidence and science based) public health information, nutrition, exercise etc.
Palliative care, physiotherapy, occupational therapy, physiatry, psychology, counselling, social care etc. all aim to move the emphasis away from drugs and surgery… all are firmly based on scientific empiricism.

In short – something neither of us do very well – you and I and millions of others suffer from back pain. I control mine with specific and general exercise. I have episodes where I require a couple of physiotherapy sessions. Rarely I require painkillers, which I have to fight with my doctor to prescribe. I have been flatly refused surgery. All of this is based on the best available scientific evidence.

Your experience might amount to the same thing, albeit via a chiropractor who just happens to be perform equivalent physical therapist treatments. However, the only thing unique about chiropractic is its basic definition as a method of adjusting vertebral subluxations to ‘holistically’ restore and maintain health – there is zero evidential or scientific basis for this; it’s pseudo-science. Yet it’s still taught in many chiropractic collages and is regularly stated as fact in media articles and practitioners advertising.

Even in the UK, where there has been pressure for chiropractic reform, unsubstantiated claims are still routine. Here’s an example from single internet search.

Quote:
"A subluxation is a complex of functional and/or structural and/or pathological articular changes that compromise neural integrity and may influence organ system function and general health."

Sounds impressive, right?.. but it simply has no basis in fact, hence the disclaimer at the bottom of the page, if you get that far.

Quote:
The current Guidelines issued by the General Chiropractic Council regarding the terminology “ Vertebral Subluxation Complex” and any derivation thereof i.e. “subluxation” is “The chiropractic vertebral subluxation complex is an historical concept but it remains a theoretical model. It is not supported by any clinical research evidence that would allow claims to be made that it is the cause of disease or health concerns.” Therefore this page is for information only, however, as 97% of the world’s Chiropractors accept and utilise the terms Vertebral Subluxation Complex at this time we feel it is important information to be included on this site. The use of the title Dr on this website is with reference to the qualification of Doctor of Chiropractic and is in no way claiming to be that of a Doctor of Medicine.

Bold emphasis mine.

Why dose this matter? It shows what a pernicious belief system this is, that too frequently leads to other pseudo-scientific practices. Here’s what one of many glowing (anecdotal) testimonials from the same site had to say:

Quote:
Probably share the same experience as all the other reviewers,straight from the start, staff were polite, friendly and helpful,Dr amit talked through everything that was going to happen,x-ray, scan, 8 days 1 month course, scan showed a increase in circulation after 72hrs. Been kept informed all the time on how it's going, 2 more sessions left and hopefully can get down to once a month

That’s at least two x-rays, presenting an potential risk, and at least two EMG scans that claim to show an increase in circulation, something that is ‘considered unacceptable as a clinical tool in the diagnosis of low back pain at this time’ and numerous physical interventions … all at cost and all based on a disproved premise. Either the patient has misunderstood the information he was given, or the good Dr is peddling pseudo-science.

There is some, increasing, evidence to link chiropractic neck manipulation with increased incidences of strokes. The evidence is not definitive, but the point is that if there were a mainstream treatment with the same small associated risk, coupled with no proven effect for the condition in question, it would be withdrawn. Whereas alternative medicine is by definition outside of that scientific rigour and remains largely unregulated and unaccountable. I’ve purposely focused on chiropractic again because it’s widely considered one of the most credible and accountable ‘alternative’ therapies, yet you only have to scratch the surface to find quackery of the highest degree. Shame on you


.
will
Posted: Wednesday, January 25, 2017 8:45:03 AM
Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 6/29/2009
Posts: 1,073
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Hope123 wrote:
Hi Will. You are never strident

Of course not, but I bet you could find a person or two who would disagree. Whistle

Hope123 wrote:
I am going to respond one last time on the thread because you and I actually agree on most points.

Yeah. I'm right, but it's taken you a while to realise it. Dancing

.
Drag0nspeaker
Posted: Wednesday, January 25, 2017 8:52:41 AM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 9/12/2011
Posts: 27,485
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Location: Livingston, Scotland, United Kingdom
will wrote:
Yeah. I'm right, but it's taken you a while to realise it. Dancing .


Ho, ho, ho!! Dancing Angel

Wyrd bið ful aræd - bull!
Hope123
Posted: Wednesday, January 25, 2017 11:03:09 PM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 3/23/2015
Posts: 7,409
Neurons: 42,807
Location: Burlington, Ontario, Canada
Lol, Will, now you went and did it. But before I go on my roll, let me clarify a couple of things.

Yes, I used traditional and mainstream interchangeably. That was a slip. I will use mainstream to mean Western conventional care that costs billions of dollars and is referred to as a healthcare system in Canada and the US. It is the field sanctioned at this particular point in time by Western society, MDs, insurance companies, and pharmaceutical companies.

I agreed with you that all medical treatments should be evidence and science based which is not always the case even in mainstream medicine. (Posts to follow.) I agreed that mainstream medicine has advanced very rapidly and does wonders. But I do not agree that mainstream is the end all and be all of medical treatment. And there is always room for new ideas and treatments so open-mindedness is an attribute.

What I ever only wanted you to acknowledge is that the complementary care MD doctors (except for chiropractors) are just mainstream MDs with more letters behind their names that make them a type of specialist in their chosen field such as body chemistry/nutrition or chelation. They are licenced and have every right to practise medicine as the MD who studies no further. You have resisted that and instead mention all other kinds of practices I know nothing about.

Since you have not had experience with complementary care MDs it is hard to explain the differences except that they are more openminded as new ideas come forward.

I think I have mentioned this as an example before -

http://www.news-medical.net/news/2006/02/24/16174.aspx

A new disorder was discovered in 2006 - but my family doctor refused to consider or even listen to my self diagnosis (I had read about it) but fortunately my MD ACAM was up on it, listened to me, and got me treatment and in to see a specialist for an accurate diagnosis. Actually it was really weird how I heard about it - I read about it in a Miami newspaper while we were in Cancun and filed it away in my memory if I ever got into trouble eating again. :)

Mainstream medicine does not have a monopoly on prevention, counselling, palliative care, etc. And some of those you mention still use drugs and surgery as their basis. My question was rhetorical - the main tools of mainstream medicine are drugs and surgery. And we should be thankful for that! I did not find your argument to the contrary convincing.

I'll take just one of the categories you mention - here's what a physiatrist does - my daughter-in-law sees one for chronic pain caused by injury - they still use drugs and invasive procedures.

http://www.aapmr.org/about-physiatry/about-physical-medicine-rehabilitation/what-is-physiatry

"EMG/Nerve Conduction Studies
Ultrasound guided procedures
Fluoroscopy guided procedures
Injections of spine
Discography, Disc Decompression and Vertebroplasy/Kyphoplasty
Nerve Stimulators, Blocks and Ablation procedures—Peripheral and Spinal
Injections of joints
Prolotherapy
Spasticity Treatment (Phenol and Botulinum toxin injections, intrathecal baclofen pump trial and implants)
Nerve and Muscle Biopsy
Manual Medicine/Osteopathic Treatment
Prosthetics and Orthotics
Complementary-alternative medicine (i.e. acupuncture, etc.)
Disability/impairment assessment
Medicolegal consulting"


It will always make sense to me to use whatever fields help and not limit myself to one particular area. When I needed a physiotherapist, I saw one. When/if he/she didn't help, I looked elsewhere - perhaps to a chiropractor who spent the time studying the mechanics of the body in place of learning the drugs.

In your car analogy, if your diesel engine is contaminated with petrol you get the mechanic to fix that - mainstream medicine reams out your arteries as you are having a heart attack. But you do get a wash and wax to stop the body from rusting. And you learn to put the proper fuel into the engine in the first place, so that is equivalent to proper nutrition. And if you had proper nutrition to begin with you might not have needed your arteries reamed out - prevention.

Most people who have turned to complementary medicine have done so because mainstream medicine failed them. Most have been to umpteen MDs and specialists being misdiagnosed and with missed diagnoses and were given all kinds of inappropriate, even harmful to them, drugs before they even considered trying a complementary care MD. As happened to me for 42 inexcusable years.

It is a good job I never gave up and desperately fought and fought to get answers, being let down time after time, knowing it was not "stress" or "all in my head" which is where MDs go when they don't know.

I can't describe the feeling of vindication when I finally got the right answer. Maybe I can have ten years or so left of living rather than just surviving as I did all those years.



Until he extends the circle of his compassion to all living things, man will not himself find peace. Albert Schweitzer
Hope123
Posted: Wednesday, January 25, 2017 11:10:13 PM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 3/23/2015
Posts: 7,409
Neurons: 42,807
Location: Burlington, Ontario, Canada
https://www.nytimes.com/2015/06/23/health/heart-attack-stent-angiogram-chest-pain-angina.html?_r=0

"Researchers tried to get an answer with a big federal study, called Courage, that was published in 2007. But many cardiologists said the study was flawed and they did not believe its conclusion that stents failed to prevent heart attacks and deaths."

Yet 600,000 heart stents are placed annually in the US.

https://www.ucsf.edu/news/2015/04/124976/patients-heart-stents-have-similar-increased-risk-death-bleeding-and-heart

So not all mainstream practices are rigidly and scientifically controlled.

:::::

Aspirin for one has been GRAS for many years.


Until he extends the circle of his compassion to all living things, man will not himself find peace. Albert Schweitzer
Hope123
Posted: Wednesday, January 25, 2017 11:11:41 PM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 3/23/2015
Posts: 7,409
Neurons: 42,807
Location: Burlington, Ontario, Canada
Mainstream MDs do not get many hours in nutrition instruction.

https://www.hindawi.com/journals/jbe/2015/357627/

Journal of Biomedical Education
Volume 2015 (2015), Article ID 357627, 7 pages
http://dx.doi.org/10.1155/2015/357627

Copyright 2015.

"Many US medical schools still fail to prepare future physicians for everyday nutrition challenges in clinical practice. Nutrition is a dominant contributor to most chronic diseases and a key determinant of poor treatment outcomes. It cannot be a realistic expectation for physicians to effectively address obesity, diabetes, metabolic syndrome, hospital malnutrition, and many other conditions as long as they are not taught during medical school how to recognize and treat the nutritional root causes.

A few medical schools demonstrate that an alternative model with extensive nutrition education is compatible with the constraints of a crowded four-year medical curriculum. What we urgently need is the will to weave nutrition content credibly into other basic science and clinical topics, to offer such integrated learning sessions from the beginning to the end of undergraduate medical education and beyond, and to add a generous dose of nutrition practice opportunities. Instructors, curriculum committees, and medical school administrators need to be held accountable by licensing boards, and ultimately the general public, to meet generally recognized instructional standards. It is unacceptable that we keep finding the same systemic instructional failures decade after decade and still just hope for the best. What counts in the end is the readiness and ability of physicians to recognize and effectively address nutrition-related challenges in their patients. The reported educational deficits of medical school curricula go a long way to explain why many physicians miss opportunities to use nutrition as an effective healthcare tool."

Until he extends the circle of his compassion to all living things, man will not himself find peace. Albert Schweitzer
Hope123
Posted: Wednesday, January 25, 2017 11:13:26 PM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 3/23/2015
Posts: 7,409
Neurons: 42,807
Location: Burlington, Ontario, Canada
Told you I was on a roll...

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/14589467

From the US National Library of Medicine and National Institutes of Health -

BACKGROUND CONTEXT:
Despite clinical evidence for the benefits of spinal manipulation and the apparent wide usage of it, the biological mechanisms underlying the effects of spinal manipulation are not known. Although this does not negate the clinical effects of spinal manipulation, it hinders acceptance by the wider scientific and health-care communities and hinders rational strategies for improving the delivery of spinal manipulation.
CONCLUSION:
A theoretical framework exists from which hypotheses about the neurophysiological effects of spinal manipulation can be developed. An experimental body of evidence exists indicating that spinal manipulation impacts primary afferent neurons from paraspinal tissues, the motor control system and pain processing. Experimental work in this area is warranted and should be encouraged to help better understand mechanisms underlying the therapeutic scope of spinal manipulation.

Until he extends the circle of his compassion to all living things, man will not himself find peace. Albert Schweitzer
Hope123
Posted: Wednesday, January 25, 2017 11:15:02 PM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 3/23/2015
Posts: 7,409
Neurons: 42,807
Location: Burlington, Ontario, Canada
Strokes and Chiropractic - You don't really want to go there do you? Versus Medical Error and Drugs

Neck manipulation is associated with about one death per 1 million people due to cervical artery dissection. Notice the word association, not conclusively the cause.

By comparison, nonsteroidal anti-inflammatory drugs (NSAIDs) cause 153 stroke deaths per 1 million people (and GI complications and Congestive Heart Failure)

http://americannutritionassociation.org/newsletter/deadly-nsaids

Narcotic medications cause 53 stroke deaths per 1 million people

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2011/02/110222083511.htm


And spinal surgery of the neck causes 500 stroke deaths per 1 million people.

Heart surgery is often necessary but there are risks of strokes and other complications to that too. In fact, any medical treatment involves risk.

https://www.verywell.com/heart-surgery-complications-and-risks-3156953


In 2004 the CBC wrote a piece that said that medical errors are killing 24,000 Canadians a year. That's probably higher by now.

Medical errors are now the third leading cause of death in the US! Not counting death by C-diff and MRSA, drug side effects etc.

http://www.citynews.ca/2016/05/04/study-shows-medical-errors-now-3rd-leading-cause-of-death-in-the-u-s/

"According to the report, more than 250,000 people are killed each year as a result of medical mistakes, or approximately 9.7 per cent of all deaths in the U.S...Fatal errors included everything from not properly communicating about drugs or rehabilitation to mistakes during high-risk surgeries."

As for x-rays, it's a wonder I don't light up - and not one of them was done by a chiropractor.

So much for a thread on placebo. Whistle





Until he extends the circle of his compassion to all living things, man will not himself find peace. Albert Schweitzer
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