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The usage of 'out of' ['A out of B' - a way of visually describing a statistic, or ratio] Options
A cooperator
Posted: Tuesday, October 11, 2016 8:34:38 PM

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Hi everyone!

I always come across this structure 'A out of B'. Sometimes, it is 'Out of B'. As far as I know that 'out of' is only used to how to write numbers:::

1- But the 95% of men out there that watch porn on a regular basis are truly addicted to it.
2- out of the original eight sub-species of tigers, three are now extinct.
3- one out of three consumers globally say they are spending more money today on beauty and health care products... than ever before.
4- This folder contains 5 files out of which one is ‘hosts’ file.

5- in this sentence below 'out of' follows an adjective.
Why Are We Generous?
Are we generous out of kindness or self-interest?


I cannot understand the 'out of' in the first, second, and the fifth sentences since the structure is different from this structure 'A out of B' ('number out of number') used in the third and fourth sentences?
Is the structure 'out of' used in first, second and the fifth like the structure 'out of' used in "Archiving moves a message out of your Inbox without deleting it. To find them later, search or open the Archive folder."

Whoever doesn't own what he promises to those who do not deserve must not promise it.
NKM
Posted: Tuesday, October 11, 2016 10:55:22 PM

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A cooperator wrote:
Hi everyone!

I always come across this structure 'A out of B'. Sometimes, it is 'Out of B'. As far as I know that 'out of' is only used to how to write numbers:::

1- But the 95% of men out there that watch porn on a regular basis are truly addicted to it.
2- out of the original eight sub-species of tigers, three are now extinct.
3- one out of three consumers globally say they are spending more money today on beauty and health care products... than ever before.
4- This folder contains 5 files out of which one is ‘hosts’ file.

5- in this sentence below 'out of' follows an adjective.
Why Are We Generous?
Are we generous out of kindness or self-interest?


I cannot understand the 'out of' in the first, second, and the fifth sentences since the structure is different from this structure 'A out of B' ('number out of number') used in the third and fourth sentences?
Is the structure 'out of' used in first, second and the fifth like the structure 'out of' used in "Archiving moves a message out of your Inbox without deleting it. To find them later, search or open the Archive folder."

══════════════════════════════════════════════

In the first sentence, "out there" just means "in the world" — which does not actually add anything to the meaning of the sentence. And the wording of the sentence implies that "95% of men watch porn on a regular basis", because the word "the" is in the wrong place. It should be "95% of the men who …", not "the 95% of men who …".

The second sentence means "Three of the original eight sub-species of tigers are now extinct." It's exactly what you think of as "number out of number" — and the "out" is unnecessary (though acceptable) for that use.

The fifth sentence is a very different use of "out of". It's an idiom, meaning "for the sake of" or "motivated by".

Donthailand
Posted: Wednesday, October 12, 2016 7:58:27 AM
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How about: Are you "out of" your mind?
pjharvey
Posted: Wednesday, October 12, 2016 10:25:27 AM
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And I think that the five examples of the usage of "out of" are out of square...
thar
Posted: Wednesday, October 12, 2016 2:34:32 PM

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As has been said, these are all different uses of 'out'.
It is a common proposition, so it will often occurs in a sentence, not necessarily anything to do with numbers.


It might help you to think of '1 out of four' is just a way of visually describing a statistic, or ratio.




One stands out from the four.

It has to be a number out of a number. In one of your examples, it is that if you reorder the phrases. In others, it has nothing to do with the number in the sentence.

It can even be expressed in the opposite way - one in four men....



It really is just another way of visualising it, and describing that visualisation.
Wilmar (USA)
Posted: Wednesday, October 12, 2016 4:08:30 PM

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There is still a problem w/ this one.
4- This folder contains 5 files out of which one is ‘hosts’ file.

At best, this is very poorly worded.
It may be better phrased, as follows.
This folder contains 5 files, one of which is the "hosts" file.

NKM
Posted: Wednesday, October 12, 2016 7:25:24 PM

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As Wilmar says, sentence (4) is quite awkward, though the OP did not mention having trouble understanding it.

- This folder contains five files, including the "hosts" file.
A cooperator
Posted: Thursday, October 13, 2016 9:00:57 AM

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Thank you all of you.
If I am going to categorize the examples according to the 'out of' usage, then they would be classified as follows:



"a number out of a number" a way of visually describing a statistic, or ratio

1- out of the original eight sub-species of tigers, three are now extinct.
2- one out of three consumers globally say they are spending more money today on beauty and health care products... than ever before.
3- Archiving moves a message out of your Inbox without deleting it. To find them later, search or open the Archive folder.
4- 1 out of four.....
5- This folder contains 5 files out of which one is ‘hosts’ file.

'Out of' is an idiom, meaning "for the sake of" or "motivated by".

1- Why Are We Generous? Are we generous out of kindness or self-interest?
2- The one who kills out of anger and suspicion is more deserved to be called a pagan



However, I don't know to which usage of 'out of' 'One stands out from the four' can be classified?

Besides: I don't think that 'One stands out from the four' can be expressed as 1 in 4 since the '1 in 4' can be rephrased upside-down as '4 in 1' which means there are four things combined in one thing.

Whoever doesn't own what he promises to those who do not deserve must not promise it.
Audiendus
Posted: Thursday, October 13, 2016 9:44:00 AM
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A cooperator wrote:
1- out of the original eight sub-species of tigers, three are now extinct.
2- one out of three consumers globally say they are spending more money today on beauty and health care products... than ever before.
3- Archiving moves a message out of your Inbox without deleting it. To find them later, search or open the Archive folder. [This is not "a number out of a number". "Your Inbox" is not a number. "Out of" here has its normal meaning, as in "He went out of the house".]
4- 1 out of four.....
5- This folder contains 5 files, out of which one is ‘hosts’ file. [Add a comma after "files". The meaning is "1 out of 5".]


A co-operator wrote:
However, I don't know to which usage of 'out of' 'One stands out from the four' can be classified?

This is completely different. Here, "out" is part of the verbal phrase "stands out", not part of the prepositional phrase "out of". (There is no "of".)
A cooperator
Posted: Friday, October 21, 2016 7:25:43 PM

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Audiendus wrote:
A cooperator wrote:
1- out of the original eight sub-species of tigers, three are now extinct.
2- one out of three consumers globally say they are spending more money today on beauty and health care products... than ever before.
3- Archiving moves a message out of your Inbox without deleting it. To find them later, search or open the Archive folder. [This is not "a number out of a number". "Your Inbox" is not a number. "Out of" here has its normal meaning, as in "He went out of the house".]
4- 1 out of four.....
5- This folder contains 5 files, out of which one is ‘hosts’ file. [Add a comma after "files". The meaning is "1 out of 5".]


A co-operator wrote:
However, I don't know to which usage of 'out of' 'One stands out from the four' can be classified?

This is completely different. Here, "out" is part of the verbal phrase "stands out", not part of the prepositional phrase "out of". (There is no "of".)


Thanks a lot, Audiendus,

Firstly: Then, you think 'out of' usage can be as:

"out of", part of the prepositional phrase "out of", has a meaning a number out of a number, as in:
1- out of the original eight sub-species of tigers, three are now extinct.
2- one out of three consumers globally say they are spending more money today on beauty and health care products... than ever before.
3- out of four.....
4- This folder contains 5 files, out of which one is ‘hosts’ file.


'Out of', part of the prepositional phrase "out of", has an idiomatic meaning "for the sake of" or "motivated by".
1- Why Are We Generous? Are we generous out of kindness or self-interest?
2- The one who kills out of anger and suspicion is more deserved to be called a pagan


"Out of", part of the prepositional phrase "out of", has its normal meaning, as in:
1-He went out of the house.
2- Archiving moves a message out of your Inbox without deleting it. To find them later, search or open the Archive folder.

"out" is part of the verbal phrase "stands out", not part of the prepositional phrase "out of".
1- But 95% of men out there who watch porn on a regular basis are truly addicted to it.
2- One stands out from the four.
3- go out from my house.

Secondly: You think "This folder contains 5 files, out of which one is ‘hosts’ file." can be rephrased as This folder contains 5 files, 1 out of which is ‘hosts’ file. If not, I would be saying I couldn't understand 'one' can be used after 'out of which' since I think "This folder contains 5 files, out of which one is ‘hosts’ file." means "This folder contains 5 files, 1 out of 5 is ‘hosts’ file."

Thirdly: In 'out of a number', does 'out of a number' mean '1 out of a number'? For instance, You think that "out of the original eight sub-species of tigers, three are now extinct." means "3 out of the original eight sub-species of tigers are now extinct."? OR it can mean '1 out of the original eight sub-species of tigers, three are now extinct."?

Finally:I don't think that 'One stands out from the four' can be expressed as 1 in 4 since the '1 in 4' can be rephrased upside-down as '4 in 1' which means there are four things combined in one thing.

Whoever doesn't own what he promises to those who do not deserve must not promise it.
Wilmar (USA)
Posted: Friday, October 21, 2016 8:00:58 PM

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As long as this hasn't dried up yet, here is another fix for you.
You said:
1- out of the original eight sub-species of tigers, three are now extinct.
I would suggest it is more corrected worded as follows.
Of the original either sub-species of tigers, three are now extinct.

A cooperator
Posted: Friday, October 21, 2016 9:44:50 PM

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Wilmar (USA) wrote:
As long as this hasn't dried up yet, here is another fix for you.
You said:
1- out of the original eight sub-species of tigers, three are now extinct.
I would suggest it is more corrected worded as follows.
Of the original either sub-species of tigers, three are now extinct.



Thanks a lot, Wilmar for your try to help me.
The 'of' + a number or 'out of + a number' still confuses me.

Also, could anyone please take some of his precious time out to read my four points posted before and confirm that for me?

Whoever doesn't own what he promises to those who do not deserve must not promise it.
Audiendus
Posted: Friday, October 21, 2016 11:48:36 PM
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A cooperator wrote:
Firstly: Then, you think 'out of' usage can be as:

"out of", part of the prepositional phrase "out of", has a meaning a number out of a number, as in:
1- out of the original eight sub-species of tigers, three are now extinct.
2- one out of three consumers globally say they are spending more money today on beauty and health care products... than ever before.
3- out of four.....
4- This folder contains 5 files, out of which one is ‘hosts’ file.
Yes.

Quote:
'Out of', part of the prepositional phrase "out of", has an idiomatic meaning "for the sake of" or "motivated by".
1- Why Are We Generous? Are we generous out of kindness or self-interest?
2- The one who kills out of anger and suspicion is more deserved to be called a pagan
Yes.

Quote:
"Out of", part of the prepositional phrase "out of", has its normal meaning, as in:
1-He went out of the house.
2- Archiving moves a message out of your Inbox without deleting it. To find them later, search or open the Archive folder.
Yes.

Quote:
"out" is part of the verbal phrase "stands out", not part of the prepositional phrase "out of".
1- But 95% of men out there who watch porn on a regular basis are truly addicted to it.
2- One stands out from the four.
3- go out from my house.
Yes. "Out" in (1) is part of the adverbial phrase "out there". "Out" in (3) is part of the verbal phrase "go out".

Quote:
Secondly: You think "This folder contains 5 files, out of which one is ‘hosts’ file." can be rephrased as This folder contains 5 files, 1 out of which is ‘hosts’ file.
Yes.

Quote:
Thirdly: In 'out of a number', does 'out of a number' mean '1 out of a number'?
Not necessarily. It only means "1 out of..." if it specifically says so.

Quote:
For instance, You think that "out of the original eight sub-species of tigers, three are now extinct." means "3 out of the original eight sub-species of tigers are now extinct."?
Yes.

Quote:
OR it can mean '1 out of the original eight sub-species of tigers, three are now extinct."?
No, that would make no sense!

Quote:
Finally: I don't think that 'One stands out from the four' can be expressed as 1 in 4
"One stands out from the four" is incorrect. If there are four things altogether, and one of them stands out in some way, we would say "One of the four stands out (from the others)" or "One stands out from the other three".

Quote:
since the '1 in 4' can be rephrased upside-down as '4 in 1' which means there are four things combined in one thing.
I don't understand what you mean here.
A cooperator
Posted: Saturday, November 12, 2016 5:45:17 PM

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Audiendus wrote:

"One stands out from the four" is incorrect. If there are four things altogether, and one of them stands out in some way, we would say "One of the four stands out (from the others)" or "One stands out from the other three".



Thanks a lot, Audiendus,

Firstly: However, thar said
Quote:
One stands out from the four.

It has to be a number out of a number. In one of your examples, it is that if you reorder the phrases. In others, it has nothing to do with the number in the sentence.

It can even be expressed in the opposite way - one in four men....



As a result, I was asking that I don't think that "One stands out from the four" can be expressed as "1 in 4" as thar said since "1 in 4" could be expressed in the opposite way '4 in 1' which means there are four things combined in one thing.


Finally: Which category do you think 'out of' in this sentence underlined below can be classified to? It can be categorized to "out of", part of the prepositional phrase "out of", has a meaning a number out of a number?

We've updated our systems so need a bit more info. It only takes a minute. And it'll give you more ways to get the best out of the BBC

Whoever doesn't own what he promises to those who do not deserve must not promise it.
thar
Posted: Saturday, November 12, 2016 6:13:07 PM

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That is not 'a number out of number'.

To get the best out of the BBC is like saying 'to get some juice out of an orange', or 'to get a book out of a bag'. It means to extract it. It is in there, you want to take it out. 'out' is a preposition of direction.
Audiendus
Posted: Saturday, November 12, 2016 7:33:18 PM
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A cooperator wrote:
As a result, I was asking that I don't think that "One stands out from the four" can be expressed as "1 in 4"

That's right – it cannot be expressed as "1 in 4".


A cooperator wrote:
Finally: Which category do you think 'out of' in this sentence underlined below can be classified to? It can be categorized to "out of", part of the prepositional phrase "out of", has a meaning a number out of a number?

We've updated our systems so need a bit more info. It only takes a minute. And it'll give you more ways to get the best out of the BBC

This is the "normal meaning of the prepositional phrase 'out of'" category, as in "He went out of the house".
Drag0nspeaker
Posted: Monday, November 14, 2016 11:02:42 AM

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Audiendus wrote:
A cooperator wrote:
As a result, I was asking that I don't think that "One stands out from the four" can be expressed as "1 in 4"

That's right – it cannot be expressed as "1 in 4".

That is correct, however, "One out of four" can be expressed as "one in four".

One out of every four men has a beard. = One in every four men has a beard.


Wyrd bið ful aræd - bull!
A cooperator
Posted: Wednesday, September 13, 2017 5:00:23 PM

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Audiendus wrote:
A cooperator wrote:
As a result, I was asking that I don't think that "One stands out from the four" can be expressed as "1 in 4"

That's right – it cannot be expressed as "1 in 4".


A cooperator wrote:
Finally: Which category do you think 'out of' in this sentence underlined below can be classified to? It can be categorized to "out of", part of the prepositional phrase "out of", has a meaning a number out of a number?

We've updated our systems so need a bit more info. It only takes a minute. And it'll give you more ways to get the best out of the BBC

This is the "normal meaning of the prepositional phrase 'out of'" category, as in "He went out of the house".


Thanks a lot, Audiendus, and Drag0nspeaker,

I was arguing with a friend of mine over whehter this sentence 'you don't see talking in English being interesting' is correct or not.
So, he then replied to me with this sentence "I won't make a problem out of it."
I really still don't understand what 'out of it' means here. Do you think he means 'he will not make a problem out of that sentence'. It means he won't extract a problem from that sentence.

So, do you think that 'out of it' in "I won't make a problem out of it." would be "the prepositional phrase 'out of'" category, as in
He went out of the house.

"Out of", part of the prepositional phrase "out of", It's an idiom, has its normal meaning as extracting something from something else, as in:
1- He went out of the house.
2- Archiving moves a message out of your Inbox without deleting it. To find them later, search or open the Archive folder.
3- We've updated our systems so need a bit more info. It only takes a minute. And it'll give you more ways to get the best out of the BBC.
4- I will get some juice out of an orange.
5- I will get a book out of a bag.
6- Are you "out of" your mind?
7- Have you gone out of your mind? (In Arabic translation is هل جُنِنْتَ؟)



'Out of', part of the prepositional phrase "out of", has an idiomatic meaning "for the sake of" or "motivated by":

1- Are we generous out of kindness or self-interest? => Are we generous for the sake of/motivated by kindness or self-interest?
2- The one who kills out of anger and suspicion is more deserved to be called a pagan.=>The one who kills for the sake of/motivated by anger and suspicion is more deserved to be called a pagan.


Whoever doesn't own what he promises to those who do not deserve must not promise it.
Audiendus
Posted: Sunday, September 17, 2017 9:28:09 AM
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A cooperator wrote:
I was arguing with a friend of mine over whehter this sentence 'you don't see talking in English being interesting' is correct or not.
So, he then replied to me with this sentence "I won't make a problem out of it."
I really still don't understand what 'out of it' means here. Do you think he means 'he will not make a problem out of that sentence'. It means he won't extract a problem from that sentence.

The verb here is 'make', so the meaning is something like "he will not construct a problem from (the material contained in) that sentence". He will not take the material in that sentence and make a problem with it. As in: "he made a statue out of a block of wood".

"Get the best out of the BBC" and "get some juice out of an orange" are similar to this, except that they refer only to getting the raw material out; they do not have the additional idea of constructing, as "make...out of" does.

A cooperator wrote:
'Out of', part of the prepositional phrase "out of", has an idiomatic meaning "for the sake of" or "motivated by":

1- Are we generous out of kindness or self-interest? => Are we generous for the sake of/motivated by kindness or self-interest?
2- The one who kills out of anger and suspicion is more deserved to be called a pagan.=>The one who kills for the sake of/motivated by anger and suspicion is more deserved to be called a pagan.

This is quite a different meaning.
A cooperator
Posted: Monday, October 02, 2017 7:57:38 PM

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Audiendus wrote:
Quote:

The verb here is 'make', so the meaning is something like "he will not construct a problem from (the material contained in) that sentence". He will not take the material in that sentence and make a problem with it. As in: "he made a statue out of a block of wood".

"Get the best out of the BBC" and "get some juice out of an orange" are similar to this, except that they refer only to getting the raw material out; they do not have the additional idea of constructing, as "make...out of" does.


Thanks a lot, Audiendus,
Firstly:Then, the ("Out of", part of the prepositional phrase "out of") can also be categorized to two categorizes:


A- the sentences referring only to getting the raw material out; they do not have the additional idea of constructing, as "make...out of" does.:
1- He went out of the house.
2- Archiving moves a message out of your Inbox without deleting it. To find them later, search or open the Archive folder.
3- We've updated our systems so need a bit more info. It only takes a minute. And it'll give you more ways to get the best out of the BBC.
4- I will get some juice out of an orange.
5- I will get a book out of a bag.
6- Are you "out of" your mind?
7- Have you gone out of your mind? (In Arabic translation is هل جُنِنْتَ؟)

B- the sentences referring only to getting the raw material out; they do have the additional idea of constructing, as "make...out of" does.:
1- He made a statue out of a block of wood.
2- I won't make a problem out of it.


Secondly: but if "I won't make a problem out of it' means something like "he will not construct a problem from (the material contained in) that sentence", then I think I cannot say that the both sentences "I won't make a problem out of it" and "He made a statue out of a block of wood." would NOT be in the "prepositional phrase 'out of'" category, as in "He went out of the house.". If not, then which category would those sentences be categorizd in?

Thirdly: Also, "place out of the ELC..." in this sentence below would be "prepositional phrase 'out of'" category, as in "He went out of the house."?
To place out of the ELC requirement students in this category may choose to take and pass the Stevens English Communication Proficiency Exam (ECPE) administered by Stevens upon arrival. (There is a $50 fee for this test.).

Finally: You don't comment on '
Are you out of your mind?
Have you gone out of your mind?




Audiendus wrote:
Quote:
This is quite a different meaning.


Do you think each sentence below is NOT equivalent to each one beside it?
'Out of', part of the prepositional phrase "out of", has an idiomatic meaning "for the sake of" or "motivated by":

1- Are we generous out of kindness or self-interest? => Are we generous for the sake of/motivated by kindness or self-interest?
2- The one who kills out of anger and suspicion is more deserved to be called a pagan.=>The one who kills for the sake of/motivated by anger and suspicion is more deserved to be called a pagan.

P.S. I tried categorising the sentences of 'out of' to be familiar with the various uses of 'out of'. Though my friend who is a non-native English speaker and younger than me never knows about this categories. Thus, do you think he uses 'out of' correctly since he takes and practices the phrasal verb 'make something out of something' as an idiom without needing to categorize them in categories like I have been doing.





Whoever doesn't own what he promises to those who do not deserve must not promise it.
Audiendus
Posted: Monday, October 02, 2017 10:00:17 PM
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A cooperator wrote:
A- the sentences referring only to getting the raw material out; they do not have the additional idea of constructing, as "make...out of" does.:
1- He went out of the house.
2- Archiving moves a message out of your Inbox without deleting it. To find them later, search or open the Archive folder.
3- We've updated our systems so need a bit more info. It only takes a minute. And it'll give you more ways to get the best out of the BBC.
4- I will get some juice out of an orange.
5- I will get a book out of a bag.
6- Are you "out of" your mind?
7- Have you gone out of your mind? (In Arabic translation is هل جُنِنْتَ؟)

You are mixing up several different meanings here. Only (3) and (4) refer to "getting (raw) material out". (1) simply refers to going out. (2) and (5) refer to moving a whole thing out. (6) and (7) have the metaphorical sense of somehow "being/going outside" one's mind (as if the person no longer had access to his/her proper mental faculties). If you look at these sentences carefully, you will see that they belong to different categories of meaning.

A cooperator wrote:
B- the sentences referring only to getting the raw material out; they do have the additional idea of constructing, as "make...out of" does.:
1- He made a statue out of a block of wood.
2- I won't make a problem out of it.

Yes, this is because the verb is "make", i.e. construct.

A cooperator wrote:
Secondly: but if "I won't make a problem out of it' means something like "he will not construct a problem from (the material contained in) that sentence", then I think I cannot say that the both sentences "I won't make a problem out of it" and "He made a statue out of a block of wood." would NOT be in the "prepositional phrase 'out of'" category, as in "He went out of the house.". If not, then which category would those sentences be categorizd in?

"Out of" is always a prepositional phrase, but it can have different meanings, as discussed above.

A cooperator wrote:
Thirdly: Also, "place out of the ELC..." in this sentence below would be "prepositional phrase 'out of'" category, as in "He went out of the house."?
To place out of the ELC requirement students in this category may choose to take and pass the Stevens English Communication Proficiency Exam (ECPE) administered by Stevens upon arrival. (There is a $50 fee for this test.).

I am unfamiliar with this use of the phrase "place out of". It seems to mean "be exempt from" in the above sentence. Perhaps someone else can help on this point.

A cooperator wrote:
Finally: You don't comment on '
Are you out of your mind?
Have you gone out of your mind?

Audiendus wrote:
Quote:
This is quite a different meaning.

Do you think each sentence below is NOT equivalent to each one beside it?
'Out of', part of the prepositional phrase "out of", has an idiomatic meaning "for the sake of" or "motivated by":

1- Are we generous out of kindness or self-interest? => Are we generous for the sake of/motivated by kindness or self-interest?
2- The one who kills out of anger and suspicion is more deserved to be called a pagan.=>The one who kills for the sake of/motivated by anger and suspicion is more deserved to be called a pagan.

The bolded phrases are equivalent in the last two sentences above. This is a different meaning from "be/go out of one's mind" (see my earlier comments on that).

A cooperator wrote:
P.S. I tried categorising the sentences of 'out of' to be familiar with the various uses of 'out of'. Though my friend who is a non-native English speaker and younger than me never knows about this categories. Thus, do you think he uses 'out of' correctly since he takes and practices the phrasal verb 'make something out of something' as an idiom without needing to categorize them in categories like I have been doing.

Provided that he understands the different meanings of 'out of' and can use them correctly, it is not necessary for him to write down a specific list of categories.
leonAzul
Posted: Monday, October 02, 2017 11:25:33 PM

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A cooperator wrote:
Hi everyone!

I always come across this structure 'A out of B'. Sometimes, it is 'Out of B'. As far as I know that 'out of' is only used to how to write numbers:::

1- But the 95% of men out there that watch porn on a regular basis are truly addicted to it.
2- out of the original eight sub-species of tigers, three are now extinct.
3- one out of three consumers globally say they are spending more money today on beauty and health care products... than ever before.
4- This folder contains 5 files out of which one is ‘hosts’ file.

5- in this sentence below 'out of' follows an adjective.
Why Are We Generous?
Are we generous out of kindness or self-interest?


I cannot understand the 'out of' in the first, second, and the fifth sentences since the structure is different from this structure 'A out of B' ('number out of number') used in the third and fourth sentences?
Is the structure 'out of' used in first, second and the fifth like the structure 'out of' used in "Archiving moves a message out of your Inbox without deleting it. To find them later, search or open the Archive folder."


Please consider "out of" as a synonym for "extracted from", or simply "from".

Your first example involves the collocation "out there", which is entirely different from "out of".

To parse the fifth example, please consider that this is one of the very few examples of an adverb modifying a linking (copulative) verb. The prepositional phrase "out of kindness or self-interest" modifies "are" and predicates why we might be generous.

"Make it go away, Mrs Whatsit," he whispered. "Make it go away. It's evil."
A cooperator
Posted: Wednesday, October 04, 2017 7:03:12 PM

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leonAzul wrote:
Quote:

To parse the fifth example, please consider that this is one of the very few examples of an adverb modifying a linking (copulative) verb. The prepositional phrase "out of kindness or self-interest" modifies "are" and predicates why we might be generous.


Thank you bot of you, Audiendus, and LeonAzul,
But there is no adverb in my mentioned sentence to modify the linking verb 'are'. The 'out of' is a prepositional phrase, not an adverb.

Secondly: do you think that normal verb 'kill' is modified by 'out of' in this sentence below as well?
The one who kills out of anger and suspicion is more deserved to be called a pagan.=>The one who kills for the sake of/motivated by anger and suspicion is more deserved to be called a pagan.




Whoever doesn't own what he promises to those who do not deserve must not promise it.
A cooperator
Posted: Wednesday, October 04, 2017 10:34:41 PM

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Audiendus wrote:
Quote:
To place out of the ELC requirement students in this category may choose to take and pass the Stevens English Communication Proficiency Exam (ECPE) administered by Stevens upon arrival. (There is a $50 fee for this test.).

I am unfamiliar with this use of the phrase "place out of". It seems to mean "be exempt from" in the above sentence. Perhaps someone else can help on this point.


Thank you so much indeed, Audiendus,
Yes, even I didn't find such 'place +adv+prep 'out of' + n' when looking up 'place' in my Oxford phrasal verbs dictionary.
So, I don't know from where that sentence was come up.
Yes, they replied to me with "In order to be considered eligible for a TOEFL/IELTS waiver, applicants must have attended a US institution, or an institution where the medium of instruction was English, for a total of 4 years, and must have earned a degree from such a school."
However, I don't think that "place out of" in "To place out of the ELC requirement students" could be a phrase verb "v+adv+prep+n". Though it is meant to "be exempt from", as you said.




First of all: We can use 'out of' without being a part of a phrasal verb.

Seconldy: The issue is in phrasal verbs (inseparable verbs), which are followed by an dverb and a prepositon(as the object always follows the particle.).Thus, 'out of' would be always called 'prepositinal phrase' in such patterns regardless if I can use the verb on its own (Danger! Keep out) or as a transitive verb with the adverb + preposition 'out of'?


At "run out of", you will see:
v+adv:
They returned home from South Africa when their money ran out.

v+adv+prep + n/pron:
Many hospitals are running out of money.

At "keep out", you will see:
v+adv:
Keep out; keep out of sth to not enter a place; to rmeain outside.
There was a sign saying 'keep out!'.
v+adv+prep+n/pron:
Please keep out of the office while I am working.
Keep out of the kitchen until I've finished cooking.
This tells you that in this meaning you can use the verb on its own (Danger! Keep out) or as a transitive verb with the adverb + preposition 'out of', followed by a noun
or pronoun (Keep out of my way).

At "back out", you will see:
v+adv:
Back 'out'; ,back 'out of sth'; ,back 'out of doing sth' to decide not to do sth that you had agrred or promised to do.
Everything's arranged. It is too late to back out now.
v+adv+prep+n/pron:
There's still time to back out of selling the house.

At "argue out", you will see:
v+adv:
Argue sth out: to discuss all the deatils of a plan, idea, etc.
I am sure they'll manage to argue out any differences that arise.
I am too tired to argue it out with you now.
The issues have all been argued out at great length.

v+n/pron+adv +prep:
Argue sb :out of sth":
to presuade sb not to do sth by giving them a large number of reasons why they dhould not do it.
I argued her out of her crazy idea.
I argued Ali out of his crazy idea.


At "come out", to leave a place or appear from inside a place:
v+adv:
Come out! I know you're in there.
v+n/pron+adv +prep:
I'll speak to her as soon as she comes out of the meeting.
All the pages have come out of this book.
This screw won't come out of the wall.

At "bale/bail out ", you will see:
v+adv+n:
The boat will sink unless we bail out.
They started baillng the boat out.
v+n/pron+adv+prep + n/pron:



At "Throw out", you will see:
v+adv+n:

v+n/pron+adv+prep:
We can throw the water out of a boat with a container or with our hands.

At 'Be 'out of sth' to have used up a supply of sth and have nothing left, you will see:
v+adv+prep+ n/pron:
We're out of sugar.


Thirdly:
However, here 'out of' in these two sentences below is separable from the verb:
Are we generous out of kindness or self-interest? => Are we generous for the sake of/motivated by kindness or self-interest?
2- The one who kills out of anger and suspicion is more deserved to be called a pagan.=>The one who kills for the sake of/motivated by anger and suspicion is more deserved to be called a pagan.


Finally: I looked up 'kill' in Oxford phrasal verbs dictionary, and never ever found (kill+ adv + prep"out of" + n) as in "The one who kills out of anger and suspicion is more deserved to be called a pagan."
However, (Kill sb/sth off : to make a lot of plants, animals, etc. die.) can only be used in V+adv+n; V+pron+adv; V+n+adv(rare):
Antibiotics should kill off the bacteria.
The plant life was killed off by air pollution.
The hero is killed off in the last chapter.
It is difficult to kill off old traditions or myths.
As a result, I think, 'kill' + out + off+ noun in the sentence "The one who kills out of anger and suspicion is more deserved to be called a pagan." is wrong.




P.S: could you only confirm if these sentences are classified in the correct categories?

The sentences referring to getting the raw material out; they do have the additional idea of constructing, as "make...out of" does:

1- He made a statue out of a block of wood.
2- I won't make a problem out of it.


The sentences referring to getting the raw material out; they do NOT have the additional idea of constructing, as "make...out of" does: "getting (raw) material out".
1- We've updated our systems so need a bit more info. It only takes a minute. And it'll give you more ways to get the best out of the BBC.
2- I will get some juice out of an orange.


The sentences referring to moving a whole thing out:
1- Archiving moves a message out of your Inbox without deleting it. To find them later, search or open the Archive folder.
2- Archiving moves a message out of your Inbox without deleting it. To find them later, search or open the Archive folder.

The sentences referring to going out:
1- He went out of the house.


The sentences referring to having the metaphorical sense of somehow "being/going outside" one's mind:

1- Are you "out of" your mind?
2- Have you gone out of your mind?


The sentences referring to motivating:
Are we generous out of kindness or self-interest? => Are we generous for the sake of/motivated by kindness or self-interest?
2- The one who kills out of anger and suspicion is more deserved to be called a pagan.=>The one who kills for the sake of/motivated by anger and suspicion is more deserved to be called a pagan.

The sentences referring to lacking:
1- We are out of sugar.




Whoever doesn't own what he promises to those who do not deserve must not promise it.
Audiendus
Posted: Thursday, October 05, 2017 10:22:33 AM
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A co-operator,

If you wish to have a comprehensive and detailed analysis of the phrase "out of", I would advise you to consult an academic grammar book and/or a large dictionary. However, to try to categorize every possible use of this phrase is not a useful exercise. As long as one knows the different ways in which it is used (which you clearly do), there is no need to give a specific label to every category and sub-category. Even professional grammarians will disagree to some extent as to how the phrase should be analysed in a particular context.

A few general comments:

"Out of" is a phrase which functions like a preposition. This is true regardless of whether it is used as an independent phrase or as part of a phrasal verb. I would group the relevant words in the following sentences thus:

Many hospitals are running out of money. [not running out of money].
Please keep out of the office. [not Please keep out of the office].
There's still time to back out of selling the house. [not back out of selling the house].
I argued Ali out of his crazy idea. [not I argued Ali out of his crazy idea.]

Note that we would say "I earned some money, which I soon ran out of", not "I earned some money, of which I soon ran out". It would be unnatural to split "out" from "of". And similarly with the other sentences above. That is why I would still regard "out of" as an inseparable phrase.

You are right that "out of" in "kills out of anger and suspicion" is separate from the verb; there is no phrasal verb "kill out" or "kill out of".

Distinctions such as "going out of", "getting a whole thing out of", "getting raw material out of" etc are not really categories of the phrase "out of". They depend on the wider context, particularly the meaning of the verb they relate to, e.g. "come", "take", "make". These various meanings are not intrinsic to the phrase "out of". There are only a small number of different basic meanings of "out of"; the ones I can think of are:

1. from within (e.g. we came out of the room; I chose the first one out of this set).
2. outside (e.g. I am out of the house; we are out of danger; he is out of his mind).
3. lacking, [having become] empty of (e.g. we are out of sugar; they have run out of oil).
4. for the sake of/motivated by (e.g. the one who kills out of anger and suspicion).

You only need to know these basic categories. The context will give the exact meaning.
Audiendus
Posted: Thursday, October 05, 2017 7:53:07 PM
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Audiendus wrote:
1. from within (e.g. we came out of the room; I chose the first one out of this set).

I would include "make a problem out of it" and "get the best out of the BBC" in this category.

Make a problem out of it = make a problem from (the material) within it.
Get the best out of the BBC = get the best from (what is) within the BBC.
A cooperator
Posted: Friday, October 06, 2017 8:43:48 PM

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Audiendus wrote:
A co-operator,

If you wish to have a comprehensive and detailed analysis of the phrase "out of", I would advise you to consult an academic grammar book and/or a large dictionary. However, to try to categorize every possible use of this phrase is not a useful exercise. As long as one knows the different ways in which it is used (which you clearly do), there is no need to give a specific label to every category and sub-category. Even professional grammarians will disagree to some extent as to how the phrase should be analysed in a particular context.
ut of" in "kills out of anger and suspicion" is separate from the verb; there is no phrasal verb "kill out" or "kill out of".


Thank you so much indeed, Audiendus,
I don't know any academic grammar book or a large dictionary dealing with phrasal verbs. I think a comprehensive and detailed analysis of the phrase "out of" 'out of' would be also require the studying of the phrasal verbs.
I only have Oxford phrasal verbs dictionary.
Oxford University Press 2001? Database right Oxford University Press (maker)
First published 2001
Second impression 2002


Whoever doesn't own what he promises to those who do not deserve must not promise it.
leonAzul
Posted: Saturday, October 07, 2017 4:11:16 AM

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A cooperator wrote:

But there is no adverb in my mentioned sentence to modify the linking verb 'are'. The 'out of' is a prepositional phrase, not an adverb.


What are the functions of a prepositional phrase?
Think
I write out of joy for the English language.

"Make it go away, Mrs Whatsit," he whispered. "Make it go away. It's evil."
leonAzul
Posted: Saturday, October 07, 2017 4:16:05 AM

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Audiendus wrote:

Distinctions such as "going out of", "getting a whole thing out of", "getting raw material out of" etc are not really categories of the phrase "out of". They depend on the wider context, particularly the meaning of the verb they relate to, e.g. "come", "take", "make". These various meanings are not intrinsic to the phrase "out of". There are only a small number of different basic meanings of "out of"; the ones I can think of are:

1. from within (e.g. we came out of the room; I chose the first one out of this set).
2. outside (e.g. I am out of the house; we are out of danger; he is out of his mind).
3. lacking, [having become] empty of (e.g. we are out of sugar; they have run out of oil).
4. for the sake of/motivated by (e.g. the one who kills out of anger and suspicion).

You only need to know these basic categories. The context will give the exact meaning.


I agree with you, yet would suggest that most of the time the single word "from" could be acceptable as a synonym for "out of".

Out of Nowhere

"Make it go away, Mrs Whatsit," he whispered. "Make it go away. It's evil."
leonAzul
Posted: Sunday, October 08, 2017 5:52:05 AM

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Audiendus wrote:

A cooperator wrote:
Thirdly: Also, "place out of the ELC..." in this sentence below would be "prepositional phrase 'out of'" category, as in "He went out of the house."?
To place out of the ELC requirement students in this category may choose to take and pass the Stevens English Communication Proficiency Exam (ECPE) administered by Stevens upon arrival. (There is a $50 fee for this test.).

I am unfamiliar with this use of the phrase "place out of". It seems to mean "be exempt from" in the above sentence. Perhaps someone else can help on this point.


Your intuition is correct. Frequently colleges have minimal skill levels requirements when entering a degree program, and a student has the option to "place out of" these basic classes by scoring well on a single exam.

"Make it go away, Mrs Whatsit," he whispered. "Make it go away. It's evil."
A cooperator
Posted: Sunday, October 08, 2017 7:15:15 PM

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leonAzul wrote:
Audiendus wrote:

Distinctions such as "going out of", "getting a whole thing out of", "getting raw material out of" etc are not really categories of the phrase "out of". They depend on the wider context, particularly the meaning of the verb they relate to, e.g. "come", "take", "make". These various meanings are not intrinsic to the phrase "out of". There are only a small number of different basic meanings of "out of"; the ones I can think of are:

1. from within (e.g. we came out of the room; I chose the first one out of this set).
2. outside (e.g. I am out of the house; we are out of danger; he is out of his mind).
3. lacking, [having become] empty of (e.g. we are out of sugar; they have run out of oil).
4. for the sake of/motivated by (e.g. the one who kills out of anger and suspicion).

You only need to know these basic categories. The context will give the exact meaning.


I agree with you, yet would suggest that most of the time the single word "from" could be acceptable as a synonym for "out of".

Out of Nowhere



Thank a lot, LeonAzul,
Why you have NOT replied to "there is no adverb in my mentioned sentence to modify the linking verb 'are'. The 'out of' is a prepositional phrase, not an adverb."

Is this "What are the functions of a prepositional phrase?" the answer?


Also, you think that 'I write out of joy for the English language.' could be rephrased as 'I write from joy for the English language.'?
You think 'I write out of joy for the English language." would be categorized to "The sentences referring to getting the raw material out; they do have the additional idea of constructing, as "make...out of" does:)
1- Make a problem out of it = make a problem from (the material) within it.
2- Get the best out of the BBC = get the best from (what is) within the BBC.
3- Write out of joy for the English language = write joy from(the material) for the English language.

As Audiendus said:
Audiendus wrote:
Quote:
"Out of" is a phrase which functions like a preposition. This is true regardless of whether it is used as an independent phrase or as part of a phrasal verb. I would group the relevant words in the following sentences thus:


How to know if 'out of' is used as an independent phrase or as part of a phrasal verb???

Whoever doesn't own what he promises to those who do not deserve must not promise it.
Audiendus
Posted: Sunday, October 08, 2017 7:39:12 PM
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A cooperator wrote:
1- Make a problem out of it = make a problem from (the material) within it.
2- Get the best out of the BBC = get the best from (what is) within the BBC.
3- Write out of joy for the English language = write joy from(the material) for the English language.

Before leonAzul answers your latest questions, I will just mention the following:

"Write" in (3) above (unlike "make" and "get" in (1) and (2)) is an intransitive verb. "Write joy" does not make sense.
leonAzul
Posted: Tuesday, October 10, 2017 8:47:56 AM

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Audiendus wrote:
A cooperator wrote:
1- Make a problem out of it = make a problem from (the material) within it.
2- Get the best out of the BBC = get the best from (what is) within the BBC.
3- Write out of joy for the English language = write joy from(the material) for the English language.

Before leonAzul answers your latest questions, I will just mention the following:

"Write" in (3) above (unlike "make" and "get" in (1) and (2)) is an intransitive verb. "Write joy" does not make sense.


The last part might make sense, in an e. e. cummings sort of way, that is to say as poetry, not standard language.

To back track, I'll confess that what I had written was intentionally ambiguous, and that there is a point to it.

The exact meaning of "I write out of joy for the English language" depends on how it is parsed, which in turn depends on the context in which it is uttered.

As Audiendus wrote, one way is to assume an elliptical "it": I write [it], from joy, for the English language. There is something that needs to be translated or reported in English, and I am glad to do it.

If one considers "joy for the English language" as a noun modified by a phrase headed by a preposition, then it means that I write because I enjoy writing in English.

If, instead, the words are organized as "I write | out of joy | for the English language", that would suggest that I write joyfully in defense of English.

If that last interpretation sounds absurd, then you need to reside in Dade, Mariposa, or Bergen County through a few election cycles. In each of these places, electoral ballots are published in Spanish, as well as English. That should come as no surprise considering the history of North America. What might be more surprising is that in a number of other jurisdictions Tagalog, Vietnamese, and even Haitian Creole translations are included as well.

This is because there is no official language in the USA. To date, the de facto legal language is English because the overwhelming body of law is written in that language, or some legalistic semblance thereof, but although there have been a number of referendums to legally establish English as the official language, it has never been established, constitutionally, nor in the legal codes.
Think

"Make it go away, Mrs Whatsit," he whispered. "Make it go away. It's evil."
Audiendus
Posted: Tuesday, October 10, 2017 9:09:20 AM
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leonAzul wrote:
If one considers "joy for the English language" as a noun modified by a phrase headed by a preposition, then it means that I write because I enjoy writing in English.


I think we can safely assume that this is the meaning that A cooperator is referring to.
A cooperator
Posted: Thursday, November 30, 2017 6:10:44 PM

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leonAzul wrote:
If one considers "joy for the English language" as a noun modified by a phrase headed by a preposition, then it means that I write because I enjoy writing in English.

If, instead, the words are organized as "I write | out of joy | for the English language", that would suggest that I write joyfully in defense of English.


Thanks a lot, LeonAzul,
I deeply thought of how would "joy for the English language" as a noun modified by a phrase headed by a preposition, but I couldn't find any thought. How could that would happen? I don't see that "joy for the English language" could be considered as that.

Whoever doesn't own what he promises to those who do not deserve must not promise it.
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