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Should transgender people choose ANY restroom? Options
Lotje1000
Posted: Thursday, May 19, 2016 1:43:45 PM

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FounDit wrote:
Hmm….given the choice between Wikipedia and experience and training of the former psychiatrist-in-chief for Johns Hopkins Hospital and its current Distinguished Service Professor of Psychiatry, I’d have to say that Wikipedia ranks as far less authoritative for me.


I agree with you and that is specifically why I quoted the part that mentions the opinion of American Psychiatric Association, publisher of the DSM-5. Seems like an authority to me.
FounDit
Posted: Thursday, May 19, 2016 5:02:44 PM

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You validate my point. We now have conflicting opinions by psychiatric authorities. Therefore, it is foolish, in my opinion, to attempt to legislate this issue until the subject is definitively settled. Only then can the law be applied fairly and equitably to all. To issue directives through bureaucracies, as Obama is wont to do, rather than through the representatives of the people, invites social discord.

A great many people will think they are thinking when they are merely rearranging their prejudices. ~ William James ~
Lotje1000
Posted: Friday, May 20, 2016 2:24:05 AM

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FounDit wrote:
The whole premise of the movement appears to be, “Everyone must agree with us, for we are always right”. It isn’t even possible to suggest there may be another way of looking at something, or holding a differing opinion without that opinion being mocked. It’s the attitude of offended, petulant children, which the responses to the original post have evidenced.


Yet when you quote some authority, then everyone must agree with him.

FounDit wrote:
You validate my point. We now have conflicting opinions by psychiatric authorities.


I'm not sure how, by quoting the American Psychiatric Association who disagree with your authority's statement, I'm validating your point.

EDIT: Oh no, nevermind. I see it now. Your point has changed from "this authority makes the interesting point that it's a mental disorder." to "People have differing opinions about this."
eraigames
Posted: Friday, May 20, 2016 12:00:03 PM
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Some people who have participated is this thread have proposed that this sort of thing is not a psychological issue.

If it is not psychological it must be biological (i.e. genetic) and there is no evidence that I can find of this. Unlike homosexuality for which it seems there may be a genetic link, transgender issues seem to be due to an issue in the brain. Having read through the materials linked to on this thread and some of my materials from my school days, it seems that the jury is still out as to whether people are born with the brain issue, develop it purely due to influence from the environment or both. There does seem to be circumstantial evidence that could point either way such as the broad range of onset times (i.e. that some experience such feelings from a young age while others don't start to feel this way until adulthood).

Some people have proposed that it does not matter whether being transgender is a psychological issue or not.

This is incorrect. It matters, because, if it is a psychological issue, then it is a delusion and the crusaders for the cause are essentially trying to force society to indulge these people's delusions which is not right.

for example: I recall reading in one of my psych classes a case file on a person who thought he was Elvis. That belief was unanimously recognized as a delusion. Whether the delusion was harmful or not could be debated, but even if it was harmless under most circumstances, that would not require all the staff, the other patients, the man's family, or society at large to recognize him as Elvis. No one would expect a probate judge to find this man in a psych ward to be Elvis and cancel the probate of Elvis's estate. The IRS would not come around to collect decades of back taxes on all of those royalties from this man.

Now if the man asked some people to indulge his delusion and those people privately agreed then, while it may not help the man recover, it would be fair. These transgender rights crusaders are demanding that all of society indulge the delusion and that is unacceptable (if it turns out to be a psychological disorder).
Hope123
Posted: Friday, May 20, 2016 12:45:42 PM

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I see what you are saying erai and partially agree. But asking that transgendered people be allowed to use the washroom of their choice is a demand that everyone accept a delusion?

The jury is still out. Heredity versus environment is a well-known aspect in any condition and psychology has to be involved with this whether totally or because of genes.

I give credence to a doctor who has worked with these people and expect he and his medical institution will continue to look for answers as to the best treatments. But as I said before, just because something is 'all in your head' does not negate it or the emotional pain they feel, so compassion for them is understandable. The condition itself is hard for most of us to understand which makes it all the more controversial.

All we are asked to do is mind our own business and indeed, we would probably never know unless we peeked under the door of a washroom. I bet most of us have washed hands with a transgendered person next to us and never even knew.

Equality is when you see a person - not a label.
eraigames
Posted: Friday, May 20, 2016 1:00:51 PM
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Yeah, practically speaking, it doesn't matter who is using the bathroom so I think that all bathrooms really ought to be unisex. I am more worried about creating a potential slippery slope. If society indulges one delusion (assuming that it turns out to be such), then what's to stop self-righteous crusaders (of which there are sooooo many in this hyper-PC culture) from shoving other delusions down society's proverbial throat?

We see this (in America) already in schools where the hyper-PC culture has forced school districts to, in turn, force teachers to let kids believe all sorts of things. It is an extension of the "No Child Left Behind" policy where kids are not told the truth about where they stand socially, developmentally, and academically, because feelings are supposedly more important than reality and learning to function in society.
FounDit
Posted: Friday, May 20, 2016 3:11:16 PM

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Lotje1000 wrote:
FounDit wrote:
The whole premise of the movement appears to be, “Everyone must agree with us, for we are always right”. It isn’t even possible to suggest there may be another way of looking at something, or holding a differing opinion without that opinion being mocked. It’s the attitude of offended, petulant children, which the responses to the original post have evidenced.


Yet when you quote some authority, then everyone must agree with him.

FounDit wrote:
You validate my point. We now have conflicting opinions by psychiatric authorities.


I'm not sure how, by quoting the American Psychiatric Association who disagree with your authority's statement, I'm validating your point.

EDIT: Oh no, nevermind. I see it now. Your point has changed from "this authority makes the interesting point that it's a mental disorder." to "People have differing opinions about this."


Actually, my point did not change at all. The point of my post was to provide an alternative, and what I thought was an interesting, point of view on the subject at hand -- transgenders and their interaction with society.

A great many people will think they are thinking when they are merely rearranging their prejudices. ~ William James ~
Hope123
Posted: Monday, May 23, 2016 10:09:07 AM

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https://www.thestar.com/opinion/commentary/2016/05/22/bill-c-16-a-glorious-trans-formation-that-went-mostly-unnoticed.html

by Michael Coren in the Toronto Star yesterday.

"...in a glorious display of Canada at it finest, Bill C-16 was introduced in Ottawa and will amend the Human Rights Act to ban discrimination against people based on gender identity or expression...

Now, before I come across as some paradigm of liberal virtue, let me emphasize that I am a 57-year-old Englishman who wears a lot of tweed and corduroy. Frankly, I don’t always feel automatically comfortable with all members of the trans community. But this says more about me than about them...

In the past two years I have written extensively about the LGTBQ community in all of its numerous aspects. What becomes immediately obvious is that trans people are various and, yes, individual.

Yet, one of the dominant characteristics I encountered was a history of despair, biting isolation and suicide attempts. It was staggering how many had either contemplated or actually tried to kill themselves..."









Equality is when you see a person - not a label.
Lotje1000
Posted: Monday, May 23, 2016 10:18:05 AM

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Hope123 wrote:
https://www.thestar.com/opinion/commentary/2016/05/22/bill-c-16-a-glorious-trans-formation-that-went-mostly-unnoticed.html

"What becomes immediately obvious is that trans people are various and, yes, individual."


We're all just people in the end.
ithink140
Posted: Monday, May 23, 2016 7:07:39 PM

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The problem with giving transgender folk the right to use whatever toilet facilities they wish is the problem of determining who really transgender are and who perverts are. It seems to me that if you open it up for transgender folk to use any toilet facility then you may as well have unisex toilets and be done with it.

'Life is too short to be eaten up by hate.'
Lotje1000
Posted: Tuesday, May 24, 2016 3:04:49 AM

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ithink140 wrote:
The problem with giving transgender folk the right to use whatever toilet facilities they wish is the problem of determining who really transgender are and who perverts are.

Because cisgender people are never perverts?

ithink140 wrote:
It seems to me that if you open it up for transgender folk to use any toilet facility then you may as well have unisex toilets and be done with it.

I agree.
ithink140
Posted: Tuesday, May 24, 2016 5:15:13 AM

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Lotje you commented: 'Because cisgender people are never perverts?'

I suppose that by the law of averages some must be.

It is a tricky problem. Imagine a woman alone in a public toilet and a hunk of a man walks in, supposedly transgender, surely she would suffer disquiet, at least or feel uncomfortable and may even experience a little fear.


'Life is too short to be eaten up by hate.'
Lotje1000
Posted: Tuesday, May 24, 2016 5:38:59 AM

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I'm sure enough men, too, would feel uncomfortable if a giant hulk of a man walked into the public toilet. Imposing people are... well, imposing.

I believe a lot of fear and discomfort can be conquered if we're not constantly isolated from the object of our fear. Why do we fear foreigners? Because we don't know them. Because their culture is different. Then we get to know them and realise they're all just people. In a less extreme example, why are women shunned from certain jobs? Not out of fear, but out of habit. "It's always been like this." Once we give people the chance to interact with us normally, we realise they're normal - even if things seemed a little weird at first. Why are men shunned from certain jobs? Because we perpetuate this idea that some jobs are "manly" and others are "girly". Men can be good nurses or midwives, for instance. Sure, some can turn out to be perverts who only wanted to become nurses so they could... I don't know what perverts do, to be honest.

My point is that it's worth giving people a shot, and giving ourselves a shot at breaking through our discomfort. Yes, there will be perverts and other dangers - sadly that's just part of dealing with people.

I agree it is a tricky problem, but I'll hold on to my hope.
Hope123
Posted: Tuesday, May 24, 2016 11:24:37 AM

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By the time a 'hulk of a man' decides he's a woman and is openly using a womans washroom, would he/she probably not also be wearing female clothes or having some hormones? I really wouldn't know but it seems to me if they have 'come out' enough to use a washroom, they'd already be doing other stuff too. That would make him/her less 'imposing'.

I think the media has just made this a tempest in a teapot. I know every rest stop from here to FL Whistle and around my area and have never had a problem or been uncomfortable.

Equality is when you see a person - not a label.
ithink140
Posted: Tuesday, May 24, 2016 12:38:23 PM

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Hope asked: By the time a 'hulk of a man' decides he's a woman and is openly using a womans washroom, would he/she probably not also be wearing female clothes or having some hormones.

Not necessarily so. Some cross dress as a fetish and do not make thee step of taking hormones. There are many shades to transgenderism. Lady boys in Thailand do not all go by the operative or the hormonal route. Some who take hormones stop it after a spell and revert to the characteristics of their birth sex.

My point is a valid one and the situation transgenders using the toilet of their choice is fraught with difficulties.

You, Hope, are not necessarily representative of the general population and your comment is subjective, besides which the situation is not at all common. 03percent of the population is the figure for the US so by the law of averages you would not have encountered the problem often.




'Life is too short to be eaten up by hate.'
Hope123
Posted: Tuesday, May 24, 2016 1:13:27 PM

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ithink140 wrote:
Hope asked: By the time a 'hulk of a man' decides he's a woman and is openly using a womans washroom, would he/she probably not also be wearing female clothes or having some hormones.

Not necessarily so. Some cross dress as a fetish and do not make thee step of taking hormones. There are many shades to transgenderism. Lady boys in Thailand do not all go by the operative or the hormonal route. Some who take hormones stop it after a spell and revert to the characteristics of their birth sex.

My point is a valid one and the situation transgenders using the toilet of their choice is fraught with difficulties.

You, Hope, are not necessarily representative of the general population and your comment is subjective, besides which the situation is not at all common. 03percent of the population is the figure for the US so by the law of averages you would not have encountered the problem often.




Ithink, thanks for the info. BTW - I didn't say your point wasn't valid. There may well be problems. There's always the few who spoil it for the rest. I said I knew nothing about it and asked a question. And of course I agree, my opinion is subjective from my experiences. I should have added 'this is only anecdotal' but aren't all opinions subjective? I don't know what my being a representative of the population has to do with it - being trangendered has no borders and the washrooms I use are public and sometimes in big cities in the US or Canada. Of course if you're saying it's different in Europe, I have never been there?

Another question - since these people have been making their own choices already, have you heard anything in the news about a problem before now? I have not. With it only being 0.3% (decimal point missing in yours) of the population that makes it even less likely for anyone to run into the small percentage of that less than 1% who would deliberately cause a problem. It's not really them you are targeting as a problem, anyhow, right? It's the percentage of pervs who would take advantage.

I wonder what the percentage of perverted criminals there are walking around there or here. Probably more than we like to think. But let's give it a try as the risks may not outweigh the advantages to those being discriminated against in ways too many for me to list.

This list is from my province of Ontario. The problem is far broader than washrooms.

http://transpulseproject.ca/wp-content/uploads/2015/06/Trans-PULSE-Statistics-Relevant-for-Human-Rights-Policy-June-2015.pdf


I"ll let you know if any problem re washrooms pops up in the news here now that the law knocks down the discrimination.

Equality is when you see a person - not a label.
Lotje1000
Posted: Tuesday, May 24, 2016 2:47:11 PM

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ithink140 wrote:
Not necessarily so. Some cross dress as a fetish and do not make thee step of taking hormones.


Transgenderism isn't cross-dressing or a fetish. It's a gender identity.
FounDit
Posted: Tuesday, May 24, 2016 3:58:31 PM

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Hope123 wrote:


Another question - since these people have been making their own choices already, have you heard anything in the news about a problem before now? I have not. With it only being 0.3% (decimal point missing in yours) of the population that makes it even less likely for anyone to run into the small percentage of that less than 1% who would deliberately cause a problem. It's not really them you are targeting as a problem, anyhow, right? It's the percentage of pervs who would take advantage.
[Emphasis mine]


And this is exactly the point. As some have said, this is a solution in search of a problem, and it is certainly not a case for the Federal Government of the US to get involved with.

No, this is a provocation by the Politically Correct bunch that simply wants to stir up the society. They're like children who whack an ant bed or a bee hive just to see the reaction, while snickering at their accomplishment.

However, the first time there is a pervert who takes advantage of this stupidity, and that's what it is in my opinion, there is going to be a helluva backlash.


A great many people will think they are thinking when they are merely rearranging their prejudices. ~ William James ~
Hope123
Posted: Tuesday, May 24, 2016 5:06:44 PM

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FD, I was talking about going into washrooms but as I said it's a much broader problem for these people. That's why I provided the link.

Violence against them, discrimination in employment, stigma against them, belittled by hospital emergency staff, problems getting documents, economic disadvantages, suicide rates high. Etc.

They say they actually avoid public washrooms or gyms or even going out in the community for fear of being outed or harrassed. Or try to find uni sex ones.

Just because they are a tiny minority, doesn't make their problems any less real. They are humans with rights too and should be protected by the government. Whichever govt you prefer, but protected.

I'm not sure who the politically correct bunch is you are referring to, but your description does provide an interesting visual. :)

I also don't know who started it all - the groups who legislated that they had to use the bathrooms of their birth gender and thus the politically group you refer to pushed back, or if it was vice versa. It doesn't matter how it started, just that it was noticed that a few people were not having their human rights protected. The gays are now finally being accepted after such a public movement.






Equality is when you see a person - not a label.
ithink140
Posted: Tuesday, May 24, 2016 6:14:04 PM

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The point is, Lotje, is that you cannot tell by sight whether the person is a cross dresser or a transsexual, or transgender. There are so many grey areas and the situation is fraught with problems.

I accept that there are confused folk about who have an identity crisis, and I feel for them. Who knows what the causes are. They are more often than not unhappy people trying to make sense of their position. But I do not think that having the freedom to use whichever toilet facility they choose is the answer. One must not consider their feelings alone, other folk have rights also. One must also take in to account the risks of such actions.


'Life is too short to be eaten up by hate.'
Hope123
Posted: Tuesday, May 24, 2016 9:13:28 PM

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Since I knew nothing about this topic, and FD, since you made me curious as to how the recent debate did start, I decided to try to get some facts.

HERO Ballot

This following quote is the question on the ballot that went in the toilet (pun intended) when social conservatives in Houston, Texas, convinced the people that perverts would molest women in the washrooms. I think it said 2015. A few other states followed with the 'bathroom bills' which are now in the courts.

"Are you in favor of the Houston Equal Rights Ordinance, Ord. No. 2014-530, which prohibits discrimination in city employment and city services, city contracts, public accommodations, private employment, and housing based on an individual’s sex, race, color, ethnicity, national origin, age, familial status, marital status, military status, religion, disability, sexual orientation, genetic information, gender identity, or pregnancy?"


Equality is when you see a person - not a label.
Hope123
Posted: Tuesday, May 24, 2016 9:15:33 PM

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But being transgendered is not a new phenomenon.

Gender non-confirming individuals have been documented in the US since the 16th century. The Wiki article may require some detail checking but it is a long overview of the history in many categories. And here is a similar link for another long paper - from the link it looks to me to be from the University of Mass. It has an impressive list of references. I added it to the Wiki one just for authenticity.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_transgender_people_in_the_United_States

http://www.umass.edu/stonewall/uploads/listWidget/32733/trans%20hist%20ebook.pdf


These transgendered and non gendered people have been fighting for themselves for many many years for 'visibility and justice'. And more celebrities and famous people have been becoming more public about themselves as being transgendered and drawing attention to it.

Recently the so-called “bathroom bills” introduced by social conservatives in states such as Arizona, Maryland, Kentucky and Florida typically mandate that people use the bathroom that matches the sex on their birth certificate and are in the courts right now.

The common argument, also given here on the Forum, about sexual predators, has not caused a problem in the states (or in Canada) that have given transgendered their civil rights to use the washroom that matches their gender identity.

Minnesota did it before 2000 and by 2013 45% of the population of the US is covered by a transgender non-discrimination law in some states and cities. * I looked at so many sites that I now can't find where I got this particular statistic to give you the link.

New York Times gives a timeline of milestones in the development of awareness of the transgendered problem.

http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2015/05/15/opinion/editorial-transgender-timeline.html?_r=0

Equality is when you see a person - not a label.
Lotje1000
Posted: Wednesday, May 25, 2016 2:42:45 AM

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ithink140 wrote:
One must not consider their feelings alone, other folk have rights also. One must also take in to account the risks of such actions.


We must, indeed, consider all parties involved.

The point is being brought up not just because transgendered people want to choose the bathroom that matches their gender identity, but also because they face aggression in their "biologically-matching" bathroom. That is also a risk to be taken into account.
Drag0nspeaker
Posted: Wednesday, May 25, 2016 6:22:47 AM

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Hi Hope.

Did you ever see 'Little Big Man'? - Excellent film, I thought.

Two very interesting characters in that film.



One is a 'contrary', who does everything backwards (walks backwards, washed in dirt etc).
The other is a hwame - a 'two spirit'.

I didn't look at all the 'learned' references, but it seems that most tribes just accepted this as normal (though not common).

Third and fourth gender roles traditionally embodied by two-spirit people include performing work and wearing clothing associated with both men and women. Not all tribes/nations have rigid gender roles, but, among those that do, some consider there to be at least four genders: feminine woman, masculine woman, feminine man, masculine man.

The presence of male-bodied two-spirits "was a fundamental institution among most tribal peoples" and, according to Will Roscoe, both male- and female-bodied two-spirits have been documented "in over 130 North American tribes, in every region of the continent."


Don Pedro Fages was third in command of the 1769-70 Spanish Portolà expedition, first European land exploration of what is now the U.S. state of California.
Don Pedro Fages wrote:
I have submitted substantial evidence that those Indian men who, both here and farther inland, are observed in the dress, clothing and character of women - there being two or three such in each village ... are called joyas, and are held in great esteem.


So, it is traditional in the USA.
Conservatives should rejoice in the fact that these traditional values are being reborn.


Wyrd bið ful aræd - bull!
TheParser
Posted: Wednesday, May 25, 2016 6:41:09 AM
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I have appointed myself as the spokesman for guests (who cannot post) and for those members who are afraid to disagree with the clique that dominates these forums.

I have no doubt that many guests and even some members agree with the common sense comments from FounDit, ithink, and listening.

Please keep up the good work.

We need more moderate views in these forums.
Drag0nspeaker
Posted: Wednesday, May 25, 2016 7:41:34 AM

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Hello Parser.

I'm very sorry. I just looked back through the thread and find that you already posted about the same data I just mentioned - ages ago!

I must have missed that section of the thread.

I should mention that I also find FounDit's posts extremely logical and 'common-sense' (usually, there are odd times that we disagree thoroughly).

I particularly like the point:
"As some have said, this is a solution in search of a problem, and it is certainly not a case for the Federal Government of the US to get involved with."

I'd go so far as to say that it's not a matter for any laws.
I'm sure that, at some time over the past sixty years, I've used a public toilet which has also been used by someone born looking like a little girl, but who grew up feeling like a man - and I'm sure that the opposite is true for my wife.
We never noticed, it did no harm, there's no call to legislate that they have to use a specific toilet.




Wyrd bið ful aræd - bull!
TheParser
Posted: Wednesday, May 25, 2016 7:59:59 AM
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Drag0nspeaker wrote:


I'm very sorry. I just looked back through the thread and find that you already posted about the same data I just mentioned - ages ago!

I must have missed that section of the thread.




You did a much better job than did your humble servant.


Hope123
Posted: Wednesday, May 25, 2016 10:03:59 AM

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Loved the pic Drago. The info and film you mention look interesting. You really do learn a lot on here as I have never been interested in gender issues or its history until it came up here on the Forum.

You and FD are right - there should be no need for ANY laws mandating which washrooms people may use. I mentioned before that there had not already been any known problems with washrooms. Either before or since the laws were passed in many States and Canada. Minnesota passed their no discrimination law before 2000 and many other American states and cities have passed that law since 2013.

The toilet issue part probably wouldn't have needed a federal law about no discrimination if the general wording of the ballot in Texas (see above post) had been allowed to stand as no discrimination against anyone, including the transgendered. Does not every human deserve civil rights of not being discriminated against? It was the social conservatives who made a big deal creating unnecessary (there had been no problem) fear about the toilets so that the 'bathroom laws' were passed. Now the LGBT groups are fighting back.

And as I mentioned after I looked into it, the problem does not really boil down to just toilets, although that IS the topic of the OP.

I respect the opinions of those who disagree about an emotional topic that is a conumdrum about our own privacy, and the need for laws to counteract the existing laws by certain states. I have some of those feelings myself, but I have been fighting here for the civil rights of everyone.





Equality is when you see a person - not a label.
MelissaMe
Posted: Wednesday, May 25, 2016 11:19:53 AM

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I don't care who pees where as long as they don't leave any of it on the seat!

And wash their hands with soap and water afterwards! I always wipe down the seat and the handle of the door as I exit, utilizing the paper towels I dried my hands on.



This is my only now.
Lotje1000
Posted: Thursday, June 02, 2016 2:35:20 PM

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tunaafi
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progpen
Posted: Sunday, June 12, 2016 1:57:30 PM

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No one has the right to tell any LGBTQ person who they can or cannot be.


Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter. ― Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.
Hope123
Posted: Wednesday, June 15, 2016 12:47:16 PM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 3/23/2015
Posts: 6,941
Neurons: 40,314
Location: Burlington, Ontario, Canada
I don't usually read this particular columnist, but I agreed with most of what she said this morning.

https://www.thestar.com/news/world/2016/06/14/omar-mateens-homophobic-hate-is-all-around-us-dimanno.html

Equality is when you see a person - not a label.
MelissaMe
Posted: Thursday, June 16, 2016 6:35:13 PM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 8/10/2014
Posts: 5,366
Neurons: 342,748
Location: Gualala, California, United States
Here's the advertisement I see on this page:
Quote:
Local Toilet Installers
Expert Toilet Installation & Repair Get Multiple Free Quotes Instantly!


Almost funny!

This is my only now.
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