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Should transgender people choose ANY restroom? Options
Tovarish
Posted: Monday, April 04, 2016 8:42:32 PM

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Uni sex toilets dont seem to have a problem, and weather a person stands up or sits down behind a closed door neither interests nor bothers me.

If this arrangement saves one transgender person from being beaten up by a feral in the Men's then I am all for it.
eraigames
Posted: Tuesday, April 05, 2016 12:43:09 PM
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progpen wrote:
@eraigames I say give him the sex change on our dime and that will save everyone lots of consternation. If we can be forced to pay for organized religion, wars for oil and for corporate handouts, I think we can afford to give every person in the country a sex change (everyone who wants one).



I'd be more inclined to agree if the government hadn't already spent the money on those things you mentioned...d'oh!
If only we could go back in time...
Lotje1000
Posted: Wednesday, April 13, 2016 3:14:32 AM

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Just came across this article, related to the subject. It talks of how gender-specific bathrooms are a recent invention.
jesusandmo
Posted: Thursday, April 14, 2016 8:10:44 AM
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One day (hopefully) we'll look back on this issue with the same bemusement as this kind of thing now evokes.

pljames
Posted: Thursday, April 14, 2016 9:07:15 AM

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What about the man who now is a women? He/she was not happy being a man and now is unhappy being a women, what sex is left? Curious
TheParser
Posted: Thursday, April 14, 2016 11:42:17 AM
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It seems that some Native American nations (the people who lived here before the Europeans "discovered" America) were light years ahead of the Europeans when it came to gender issues.

Some of you will already have heard of the word berdache.

Because I am computer illiterate, I cannot link.

So go to Google and type in:

The Berdache | Native American Netroots net/diary/313

(You will be astounded by the tolerance that was practiced by some tribes. The author warns us NOT to generalize.)
jesusandmo
Posted: Thursday, April 14, 2016 11:49:09 AM
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Is this it?

Just copy the address from the page you want to link to. Then when posting, use the button with the Earth and a little chain symbol and paste the address into the box that pops up. Hit OK.

TheParser
Posted: Thursday, April 14, 2016 2:33:19 PM
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jesusandmo wrote:
Is this it?





A million thanks!

The process is much too difficult for your humble servant to follow.

I barely know how to post this.

Thanks again.

That article will really astound many guests and members.

P.S. Thanks, too, for posting the cartoon in that other thread. Thank you for being so kind to the elderly.
Tovarish
Posted: Thursday, April 14, 2016 8:03:18 PM

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Our primary telecommunication carrier, Telstra is a public company and this week was pressured/blackmailed my the Catholic Church to withdraw its

support for the Gay Lesbian and transgender community.

The letter to the company was clearly worded laying out the accounts held by the Catholic church and the what the withdrawal would cost.

Sadly the carrier capitulated, now it is with the shareholders to show their opposition.

Bastards is a word that comes to mind.
jesusandmo
Posted: Friday, April 15, 2016 4:49:05 AM
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Telstra background

How ironic that the letter that accuses businesses of “overstepping their purpose” was sent by the business manager of the Catholic Archdiocese of Sydney.

… actually, not ironic at all.

It's 2016 and mortals dictating to other mortals, on the basis of superstitious delusions, is still widely considered as acceptable. Brick wall
Tovarish
Posted: Friday, April 15, 2016 4:55:19 AM

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Not by this little old lady J&M.
TheParser
Posted: Friday, May 06, 2016 12:14:17 PM
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I'm too stupid to link to a cartoon strip that many American newspapers published on May 6, 2016.

The title of the cartoon strip is "Non Sequitur" by Wiley.

It shows the inside of a restaurant.

A man is thinking about using the restroom.

But he is confused by the 9 choices of restrooms that are available:

Men
Women
Transgender
Left Brain
Right Brain
Democrats
Republicans
Other
Whatever

His wife advises: "Hold it until you get home."
progpen
Posted: Friday, May 06, 2016 12:19:02 PM

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jesusandmo wrote:
Telstra background

How ironic that the letter that accuses businesses of “overstepping their purpose” was sent by the business manager of the Catholic Archdiocese of Sydney.

… actually, not ironic at all.

It's 2016 and mortals dictating to other mortals, on the basis of superstitious delusions, is still widely considered as acceptable. Brick wall


Not by this old man either.

Be kind but be fierce. You are needed now more than ever before. Take up the mantel of change. For this is your time.
tunaafi
Posted: Saturday, May 07, 2016 3:53:17 AM

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progpen wrote:
It's 2016 and mortals dictating to other mortals, on the basis of superstitious delusions, is still widely considered as acceptable. Brick wall

It's 2016, and 26 members of the upper chamber of the the British houses of parliament sit there by right of their being bishops of the Church of England!

Still, I suppose we shouldn't be surprised. 92 of the others are members elected by their fellow hereditary peers. All of these, electors and elected, have this right because one of their male ancestors won a battle or brown-nosed a monarch or was the bastard offspring of a monarch.

But all is not lost. At least the other members of this chamber who sit there (for life) are appointed by the monarch (on the advice of the prime mnister), so democracy rules, OK?

Anxious
TheParser
Posted: Friday, May 13, 2016 8:43:54 AM
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The New York Times (supposedly America's most important newspaper) is reporting the following:

The federal government (headed by President Obama) is directing ALL public (government-sponsored) schools in the United States to allow transgender people to use ANY restroom of their choice.

Failure to comply will result in (a) a lawsuit by the government or (b) the loss of federal money that helps to fund many schools.

*****

Recently, the federal government directed all public schools to stop suspending students for defiance, saying that too many people of color were being suspended.
Hope123
Posted: Friday, May 13, 2016 10:49:27 AM

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Good for Obama, helping the average American person to understand the issue of federal civil rights law. The individual states are a different matter. See article.

Fox News, New York Times, and Vox all issued the news.

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2016/05/13/report-obama-administration-to-tell-public-schools-to-let-transgender-students-use-bathrooms-their-choice.html

Quote from Vox - "The guidance, first reported in the New York Times, doesn't set new, legally binding policy. Instead, it spells out the Department of Justice and Department of Education's existing policies to federally funded schools, based on the Obama administration's interpretation of federal civil rights law."


A smile is a curve that sets everything straight. Phyllis Diller
progpen
Posted: Sunday, May 15, 2016 3:26:06 PM

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Thank you Hope. I've tried to explain this in other conversations and have been told that I was wrong and that Obama created new laws. It seems that in many cases the level of malice is only exceeded by the level of ignorance. All you have to do is say the word, "Obama".

Be kind but be fierce. You are needed now more than ever before. Take up the mantel of change. For this is your time.
FounDit
Posted: Sunday, May 15, 2016 9:03:28 PM

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So I wonder what will happen when the girls have to put up with pee drops all around the toilet and on the seat when the "guys" don't lift the seat up.

Will we have to have a "new interpretation" of the law to require that? And how will it be monitored?...this is going to get really interesting.
Think ...Shame on you


A great many people will think they are thinking when they are merely rearranging their prejudices. ~ William James ~
Lotje1000
Posted: Monday, May 16, 2016 3:43:32 AM

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FounDit wrote:
So I wonder what will happen when the girls have to put up with pee drops all around the toilet and on the seat when the "guys" don't lift the seat up.


I think we'll manage. We have to put up with that anyway because some girls now have a tendency to hover over the seats when using public restrooms. (Ironically they're creating the dirty seats they so fear.)
MelissaMe
Posted: Monday, May 16, 2016 5:12:08 PM

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TheParser wrote:
May 6, 2016 cartoon strip is "Non Sequitur" by Wiley.





I only took me two years to learn how to do it. Anxious

This is my only now.
MelissaMe
Posted: Monday, May 16, 2016 5:18:02 PM

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Lotje1000 wrote:
FounDit wrote:
So I wonder what will happen when the girls have to put up with pee drops all around the toilet and on the seat when the "guys" don't lift the seat up.


I think we'll manage. We have to put up with that anyway because some girls now have a tendency to hover over the seats when using public restrooms. (Ironically they're creating the dirty seats they so fear.)


Exactly! Fortunately most public restrooms have paper towels as well as paper toilet seat covers. The fear of contracting hepatitis of some kind looms large in my mind every time I have to use one. Sick

This is my only now.
Hope123
Posted: Tuesday, May 17, 2016 1:31:31 PM

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The editorial cartoon from The Toronto Star this morning - That's Trudeau on the right. Guess who on the left of the pic.



A smile is a curve that sets everything straight. Phyllis Diller
FounDit
Posted: Tuesday, May 17, 2016 5:22:01 PM

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Hmm...Here is some interesting information from a medical expert for anyone interested in a scientific/logical point of view:

Quote: "Paul R. McHugh, the former psychiatrist-in-chief for Johns Hopkins Hospital and its current Distinguished Service Professor of Psychiatry, said that transgenderism is a “mental disorder” that merits treatment, that sex change is “biologically impossible,” and that people who promote sexual reassignment surgery are collaborating with and promoting a mental disorder."

Transgender is a Mental Disorder


A great many people will think they are thinking when they are merely rearranging their prejudices. ~ William James ~
progpen
Posted: Tuesday, May 17, 2016 6:44:26 PM

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Thank you FD, I needed a good chuckle for the day. Apparently even doctors can be dingbats.

Be kind but be fierce. You are needed now more than ever before. Take up the mantel of change. For this is your time.
FounDit
Posted: Tuesday, May 17, 2016 7:53:21 PM

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progpen wrote:
Thank you FD, I needed a good chuckle for the day. Apparently even doctors can be dingbats.


You are welcome. In fact, you should send him your credentials and inform him of the foolishness of his 40 years of experience, and how wrong he is. I'm sure he'd appreciate it.

A great many people will think they are thinking when they are merely rearranging their prejudices. ~ William James ~
Maryam Dad
Posted: Tuesday, May 17, 2016 9:38:48 PM

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I believe him because I agree with him.

"And the sun and the moon are brought together --" (Al Qiyamah: 9)
progpen
Posted: Tuesday, May 17, 2016 10:07:10 PM

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FounDit wrote:
progpen wrote:
Thank you FD, I needed a good chuckle for the day. Apparently even doctors can be dingbats.


You are welcome. In fact, you should send him your credentials and inform him of the foolishness of his 40 years of experience, and how wrong he is. I'm sure he'd appreciate it.


I do enjoy watching these special interest groups drag their pet scientist out of the basement so it can stand drooling and googly-eyed in front of a microphone and spout off about whatever the special interest wants. Once their pet is finished gibbering, they drag it back down into the basement, until the next special interest needs someone to create the false impression that "the scientific community" is split about something.

The oil and coal industry do the same thing with their pet scientists.

Be kind but be fierce. You are needed now more than ever before. Take up the mantel of change. For this is your time.
Hope123
Posted: Tuesday, May 17, 2016 11:27:57 PM

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Even if it were a mental disorder, (note the subjunctive as I am not in the know about this disorder) that still does not make any difference except to the doctor treating them. It would not make the pain any less real for them. If someone has phantom pain from a missing limb, you don't tell them there is no limb so therefore there is no pain.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_dysphoria

"Gender dysphoria or gender identity disorder (GID) is the formal diagnosis used by psychologists and physicians to describe people who experience significant dysphoria (distress) with the sex and gender they were assigned at birth. Evidence suggests that people who identify with a gender different from the one they were assigned at birth, may do so not just due to psychological or behavioral causes, but also biological ones related to their genetics, the makeup of their brains, or prenatal exposure to hormones.[1]"


A smile is a curve that sets everything straight. Phyllis Diller
Lotje1000
Posted: Wednesday, May 18, 2016 2:35:44 AM

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As long as we're quoting, gender dysphoria is indeed seen as a mental disorder according to the DSM 5. However:
Quote:
The term gender dysphoria applies only to the discontent experienced by some persons resulting from gender identity issues. The American Psychiatric Association, publisher of the DSM-5, states that "gender nonconformity is not in itself a mental disorder. The critical element of gender dysphoria is the presence of clinically significant distress associated with the condition."


As for FounDit's quote that sex change is “biologically impossible,” and that people who promote sexual reassignment surgery are collaborating with and promoting a mental disorder, the same article has the following to say:
Quote:
The current main psychiatric approaches to treatment for persons diagnosed with GID are psychotherapy or to support the individual's preferred gender through hormone therapy, gender expression and role, or surgery.


(On a side note: homosexuality was also classified as a mental disorder and then later removed.)
TheParser
Posted: Wednesday, May 18, 2016 10:07:16 AM
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I have noticed that news reports say that the federal government's ruling also applies to locker rooms.

(Thanks, MelissaMe, for posting that cartoon.)
progpen
Posted: Wednesday, May 18, 2016 10:11:16 AM

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Just to recap, gender identity contrary to what we are born with has been blessed by the APA. It is only the distress caused by society and the person's environment that is considered a disorder.

So, when society stops persecuting those with gender identity that does not fit their own personal tastes, that will get rid of this disorder.

Be kind but be fierce. You are needed now more than ever before. Take up the mantel of change. For this is your time.
FounDit
Posted: Wednesday, May 18, 2016 11:16:50 AM

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Lotje1000 wrote:


As for FounDit's quote that sex change is “biologically impossible,” and that people who promote sexual reassignment surgery are collaborating with and promoting a mental disorder, the same article has the following to say:
Quote:
The current main psychiatric approaches to treatment for persons diagnosed with GID are psychotherapy or to support the individual's preferred gender through hormone therapy, gender expression and role, or surgery.


Are you sure? I ask because I can not find any such sentence in the article. Perhaps you mean the DSM-5.

And I'm sure, as with many other psychological conditions over the years, further research and experience will change what is currently believed.


A great many people will think they are thinking when they are merely rearranging their prejudices. ~ William James ~
Hope123
Posted: Wednesday, May 18, 2016 2:35:04 PM

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Lotje1000 wrote:
As long as we're quoting, gender dysphoria is indeed seen as a mental disorder according to the DSM 5. However:
Quote:
The term gender dysphoria applies only to the discontent experienced by some persons resulting from gender identity issues. The American Psychiatric Association, publisher of the DSM-5, states that "gender nonconformity is not in itself a mental disorder. The critical element of gender dysphoria is the presence of clinically significant distress associated with the condition."


As for FounDit's quote that sex change is “biologically impossible,” and that people who promote sexual reassignment surgery are collaborating with and promoting a mental disorder, the same article has the following to say:
Quote:
The current main psychiatric approaches to treatment for persons diagnosed with GID are psychotherapy or to support the individual's preferred gender through hormone therapy, gender expression and role, or surgery.


(On a side note: homosexuality was also classified as a mental disorder and then later removed.)


So too was tuberculosis thought to be 'all in your head' until they discovered the bacillus that caused it. Here's the link to your article, Lotje.

https://www.psychiatry.org/File%20Library/Psychiatrists/Practice/DSM/APA_DSM-5-Gender-Dysphoria.pdf

According to the article they considered removing the dysphoria from the mental disorder category to remove the stigma but decided to just change the term to dysphoria so that they would still have access to treatment and insurance. They do not want it to be used against them in social, occupational, or legal areas.

A smile is a curve that sets everything straight. Phyllis Diller
Lotje1000
Posted: Thursday, May 19, 2016 2:44:53 AM

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I meant the wikipedia article Hope already linked to. It's this one. The quotes should be easy to find, as they're from the introduction.
FounDit
Posted: Thursday, May 19, 2016 1:09:38 PM

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Lotje1000 wrote:

I meant the wikipedia article Hope already linked to. It's this one. The quotes should be easy to find, as they're from the introduction.


Hmm….given the choice between Wikipedia and experience and training of the former psychiatrist-in-chief for Johns Hopkins Hospital and its current Distinguished Service Professor of Psychiatry, I’d have to say that Wikipedia ranks as far less authoritative for me.

Here again, the politics of “Feel Good” emotionalism may be doing more harm than good. I know that the current political climate encourages the victimization of anyone who “feels” different, but as this doctor has said, “…policy makers and the media are doing no favors either to the public or the transgendered by treating their confusions as a right in need of defending rather than as a mental disorder that deserves understanding, treatment and prevention.” [Emphasis mine]

The “right” to not experience any unpleasantness in thought, word or deed is an exercise in futility, yet there exists the foolish idea that this can be legislated. It defies logic and reason, but then this was never the foundation for this movement anyway. The whole premise of the movement appears to be, “Everyone must agree with us, for we are always right”. It isn’t even possible to suggest there may be another way of looking at something, or holding a differing opinion without that opinion being mocked. It’s the attitude of offended, petulant children, which the responses to the original post have evidenced.



A great many people will think they are thinking when they are merely rearranging their prejudices. ~ William James ~
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