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Not that it was ever all that awe-inspiring, but, the Libyan Navy is 8 ships lighter tonight.
Even a small insignificant force can do nasty things like mine the harbor at Misrata now that rockets and artillery cannot reliably strangle commerce there.
That will likely be problematic now. Hats off to the NATO pilots that managed this strike and minimized civilian casualties.
"Be without fear in the face of your enemies. Be brave and upright that God may love thee. Speak the truth always, even if it leads to your death. Safeguard the helpless, and do no wrong". (Knight's Oath, Kingdom of Heaven)
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Wow, this thread is still alive!
"No fly zone"!?
Do the deaf cover their ears so they cannot hear.
Have the blind refused to see, and remain in the dark.
And the dumb keep talking.
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... and the jesters be back ;-)
I don't know half of you half as well as I should like; and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve.
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It's alive! It'a alive!! It's alive!!!! I fully expect that Niblick will resurface too. Are they the same people, or do they belong to the same inbred conservative coven???
That's as far as I'll take it. There be fools that have tried to portray Libya as a quagmire. A stalemate. Well, maybe for the Libyans, to a much lesser degree, for British and French Aviators. Not so for the US. We simply employ assets we've already got in the Med. It can go on as long as needs must with narry a strain on manpower nor budget. See, that is how intelligent people conduct foreign policy. Obama crafted a masterpiece.
The thread will live so long as people here are interested in the events in Libya and want to discuss it.
"Be without fear in the face of your enemies. Be brave and upright that God may love thee. Speak the truth always, even if it leads to your death. Safeguard the helpless, and do no wrong". (Knight's Oath, Kingdom of Heaven)
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Attack Helicopters:
Bad move.
Ask the USA in Iraq, ask the Soviets in Afghanistan. They get shot down. Air crews survive and get taken hostage, or fight and recovery efforts lead to fire fights...and, in an urban environment....see the US experience in Mogadishu in Somalia.
This is a dangerous move by the European members of NATO. The no-fly policy, coupled with support of rebellion, sanctions, and diplomatic isolation of the criminal M.G. will take time. It will work. If it doesn't it must be a Libyan failure, the same as a triumph must be a Libyan one. The regime's economy is collapsing. Their military is being degraded by attack, use of supply in action, and lack of parts and re-supply. Let it go.
Attack helicopters lead to a ground presence. This is a Libyan war. With NATO support. It has to remain that. And if it takes more time than the average person takes to play a video game or change channels, I suggest learning patience.
"Be without fear in the face of your enemies. Be brave and upright that God may love thee. Speak the truth always, even if it leads to your death. Safeguard the helpless, and do no wrong". (Knight's Oath, Kingdom of Heaven)
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Manipulation of information by the west is not new. We have heard much in Iraq of lies in "Weapon Of Mass Destruction". We still don't know how many Libyans have been killed by NATO bombings. Killing civilians to protect civilians. I guess if you're world power like NATO, their killings doesn't count. 
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Teluu wrote:Manipulation of information by the west is not new. We have heard much in Iraq of lies in "Weapon Of Mass Destruction". We still don't know how many Libyans have been killed by NATO bombings. Killing civilians to protect civilians. I guess if you're world power like NATO, their killings doesn't count. Wrong again. NATO military planners go to extreme lengths to avoid civilian casualties. Have you watched this conflcit unfold Teluu? Have you watched as the port of Misrata was shelled and rocketed as refugees sought escape? As ships sought to bring in medical supplies and food? Did you hear about, read about, the cluster munitions used indiscriminately by M.G.s forces? I don't envy you. For reasons beyond my ken, you seem to be taking the part of a bloody dictator. Even as you enjoy the comforts and protections of a representative democracy in Canada. Clearly, hypocrisy doesn't trouble your sleep.
"Be without fear in the face of your enemies. Be brave and upright that God may love thee. Speak the truth always, even if it leads to your death. Safeguard the helpless, and do no wrong". (Knight's Oath, Kingdom of Heaven)
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Adolph Hitler ended his days deep underground in a bunker.
Saddam Hussein hid in a spider hole.
I wonder where M.G. is hiding now?
A couple of days ago, there was a report of a couple dozen Libyan troops that deserted via boat. It might mean something, and then maybe it was an isolated incident, so I didn't post here.
Well, today it has been reported that as many as 5 Libyan generals, and other officers, have defected. The dictator's military is falling apart.
Things may start to happen quickly now. It seems that the downfall is at hand.
"Be without fear in the face of your enemies. Be brave and upright that God may love thee. Speak the truth always, even if it leads to your death. Safeguard the helpless, and do no wrong". (Knight's Oath, Kingdom of Heaven)
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He has to be greatly concerned and nothing has been heard from his sons as well. 
>^,,^<
The poor object to being governed badly, whilst the rich object to being governed at all. G.K. Chesterton
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Laundry list of updates:
1. A couple days ago, after more NATO strikes in and around Libya, in the shadow of top-level military defections, M.G. offered a truce. The rebels, wisely, declined. They demand that M.G. and his son (mini-me)leave first.
2. Several towns in Western Libya have been captured by the rebels. M.G. is increasingly the mayor of Tripoli, instead of the dictator of Libya.
3. In a worrisome development, France and Britain have employed attack helicopters in the theatre. I understand their frustration. From 15,000 feet, if you want to limit civilian casualties, you must limit targets strictly. Helicopters can get low and dirty and take out regime forces mingling with civilian populations. But, helicopters can be shot down. Hostages can be taken. What does NATO do when M.G. is parading obviously abused aircrews before cameras? Since this must remain a Libyan ground war, they must be willing to accept the lengthy imprisionment of their gunship crews.
4. NATO attacks on the key oil town of Brega. This is a test for the rebels. NATO is softening up the target. The rebels need to take that town, and so threaten Tripoli from the East.
"Be without fear in the face of your enemies. Be brave and upright that God may love thee. Speak the truth always, even if it leads to your death. Safeguard the helpless, and do no wrong". (Knight's Oath, Kingdom of Heaven)
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Hoping that Khadafi will be excuted.. LOL
You can do anything, but not everything. —David Allen
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I believe now, with the news of M.G.'s death, the time is right to say:
I TOLD YOU SO:
1. A home-grown rebellion which espoused democracy was supported when the regime of M.G. was poised to crush it.
A. Libyans braved snipers while they were protesting.
B. Libyans won the ground war.
2. A broad-based coalition of the UN,NATO,Arab League. Not some phoney "coalition of the willing" as in the USA and Britian in Iraq.
3. No Americans or Europeans died in this war. Despite the dire predictions of a quagmire, a new Vietnam, the boots on the ground were Libyan. NATO and the USA restricted themselves to air power and intelligence support only.
4. Total U.S. cost: 1.1 billion. At the height of the Iraq war we were spending 2 billin A WEEK! No disasterous drain on the U.S. budget.
The end result: a bloody dictator overthrown, and the Libyan people have a precious chance to build a democratic future for themselves.
"Be without fear in the face of your enemies. Be brave and upright that God may love thee. Speak the truth always, even if it leads to your death. Safeguard the helpless, and do no wrong". (Knight's Oath, Kingdom of Heaven)
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HWNN1961 wrote:I believe now, with the news of M.G.'s death, the time is right to say:
I TOLD YOU SO:
1. A home-grown rebellion which espoused democracy was supported when the regime of M.G. was poised to crush it.
A. Libyans braved snipers while they were protesting.
B. Libyans won the ground war.
2. A broad-based coalition of the UN,NATO,Arab League. Not some phoney "coalition of the willing" as in the USA and Britian in Iraq.
3. No Americans or Europeans died in this war. Despite the dire predictions of a quagmire, a new Vietnam, the boots on the ground were Libyan. NATO and the USA restricted themselves to air power and intelligence support only.
4. Total U.S. cost: 1.1 billion. At the height of the Iraq war we were spending 2 billin A WEEK! No disasterous drain on the U.S. budget.
The end result: a bloody dictator overthrown, and the Libyan people have a precious chance to build a democratic future for themselves.
With the conquerors having declared Strict Sharia Law as the Backbone of any new government, I wonder how many of Libya's women are thinking they'll be a part of the new 'democracy'?
"The nearest thing to eternal life we will ever see on this earth is a government program." - Ronald Reagan
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Maggie wrote:With the conquerors having declared Strict Sharia Law as the Backbone of any new government, I wonder how many of Libya's women are thinking they'll be a part of the new 'democracy'? Yeah, that's going to be interesting.... Of course, the announcement isn't particularly meaningful. Sharia has a pretty broad range of interpretations, and the statement itself allows for a lot of wiggle room. What does it mean if the legal system is "based on" Sharia law or that it is the "backbone" of what they will be doing? So, on the whole, I don't know if that statement is any more valuable than those people who say that the U.S. is based on Christian values or that the 10 commandments are the guiding force of The Constitution. Neither of those comments have a lot of validity if looked at objectively, but it's the kind of thing that seems to soothe those of less secular inclination.... I'm not up on the nuances of Libyan politics (I don't know many people who could claim that these days) so I think this one might be something of a crapshoot; it could go either way.
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Let's hope the Libyans follow the Tunisian approach to true democracy. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-15453579
I don't know half of you half as well as I should like; and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve.
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Keep in mind two things regarding Libya's interim government:
1. They just took power. Their declaration of Sharia law will be more or less troubling based on their approach to Sharia Law. That their eventual law code will be based on Islamic views on morality isn't troubling in and of itself. After all, there are many in the USA that want the Commandments in Court Houses, and few would deny that Christianity has influenced law codes in the West. The push-back on abortion rights in the US could be seen as a kind of Christian Sharia.
2. The Interim gov't has pledged full democracy in two years. So, if they hold to their own promise, the government and the law codes that Libya eventually settles on will eventually be a true reflecion of the will of their people.
But, what NATO and the US and the Arab League did was grant to the Libyan people a chance at legitimate self-determination.
We've given them a chance to establish a Republic, let's see if they can keep it...to paraphrase Ben Franklin.
Let's wish them well.
"Be without fear in the face of your enemies. Be brave and upright that God may love thee. Speak the truth always, even if it leads to your death. Safeguard the helpless, and do no wrong". (Knight's Oath, Kingdom of Heaven)
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