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Who, whoever, what, whatever, and so on. Options
A cooperator
Posted: Friday, October 25, 2013 11:45:13 AM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 10/27/2011
Posts: 2,270
Neurons: 8,155
Location: Ḩāḑírah, Hadramawt, Yemen
Hello everyone!



I know that 'who' can be used to ask or talk about which person is involved.
However, 'whoever' can only be used to say that no matter who does something. But I sometimes be quite confused about using of these words and which one is the better to be used. Thus, Is there any rule or way helping choose the best word?
Can I use 'who' and 'whoever' in a question?
Who told you? Ali told me.
Whoever told you?
whoever kills a soul unless for a soul or for corruption [done] in the land - it is as if he had slain mankind entirely.

All batteries deteriorate over time and this cannot be avoided whatever you do.
All batteries deteriorate over time and this cannot be avoided no matter what you do.

Also, can this be applied for all the other words, 'what, whatever, how, however, when, whenever, where, wherever?


Whoever doesn't own what he promises to those who do not deserve must not promise it.
Drag0nspeaker
Posted: Friday, October 25, 2013 12:43:03 PM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 9/12/2011
Posts: 26,715
Neurons: 144,858
Location: Livingston, Scotland, United Kingdom
Hi again!

In a question, 'however', whatever' and so on are used to express surprise or 'incredulity' (inability to believe something).

"How did you do that?" - Simple question.
"However did you do that?" - I would not have believed it was possible.

"What made you buy glasses with flashing lights on the frame." - simple question (though tone of voice could express surprise)

"Whatever made you buy glasses with flashing lights on the frame?" - This says (almost) "I can't believe you would be so stupid! Why did you do that?"

"Why did you buy glasses with flashing lights on the frame." - simple question (though tone of voice could express surprise)

"Whyever did you buy glasses with flashing lights on the frame?" - This says (almost) "I can't believe you would be so stupid! Why did you do that?"
(My spell-checker does not believe that 'whyever' is a word - but it is used.)

********************
In statements, as you say, the '-ever' form is used to say 'no matter who/what/why'.

"Whoever kills a soul unless for a soul or for corruption [done] in the land - it is as if he had slain mankind entirely."
This could be written as:
"No matter who kills a soul - unless for a soul or for corruption [done] in the land - it is as if he had slain mankind entirely."
There is a word which is not used much nowadays, which would be good in this statement:
"Whosoever kills a soul unless for a soul or for corruption [done] in the land - it is as if he had slain mankind entirely."

I think that 'whosoever' was used as the subject of a clause, and 'whoever' as the object. However, 'no matter who' and 'someone, no matter whom' would be more common these days.
The sentence would often be written in very different form (though I know this is a specific 'saying' from scripture, so one would not change it much).
If someone kills a soul - unless for a soul or for corruption [done] in the land - it is as if he had slain mankind entirely.

If a man betrays one fellow man, it is as if he had betrayed the whole of mankind. is a similar (more western) philosophy.

*******************
The 'battery' sentences are correct, and mean the same thing.

The job has to be done, whoever does it.
The job has to be done, no matter who does it.
It has to be done this week, whatever you have to do to make that happen.
It has to be done this week, no matter what you have to do to make that happen.
Whenever you can fit it in, do it this week.
No matter when you can fit it in, do it this week.
Just do it, wherever.
Just do it, no matter where.

*****************
There are times when 'wherever' and 'whenever' cannot be replaced easily with 'no matter where' and 'no matter when'.

When you put some sort of 'qualifier' at the end:
"Do it whenever it is convenient" - "Do it, no matter when is convenient". These do not mean exactly the same, and the 'no matter when' one sounds a little odd.

"Do it whenever it is convenient" - this is permission to do 'it' whenever you like, it is not very important.
"Do it, no matter when is convenient" - this sounds like the person saying it is strengthening the order. "Do it, no matter when it is convenient, just do it, or else there will be trouble."



Wyrd bið ful aræd - bull!
traveller
Posted: Friday, October 25, 2013 12:58:46 PM
Rank: Newbie

Joined: 10/25/2013
Posts: 8
Neurons: 34
A cooperator wrote:
Hello everyone!



I know that 'who' can be used to ask or talk about which person is involved.
However, 'whoever' can only be used to say that no matter who does something. But I sometimes be quite confused about using of these words and which one is the better to be used. Thus, Is there any rule or way helping choose the best word?
Can I use 'who' and 'whoever' in a question?
Who told you? Ali told me.
Whoever told you?
whoever kills a soul unless for a soul or for corruption [done] in the land - it is as if he had slain mankind entirely.

All batteries deteriorate over time and this cannot be avoided whatever you do.
All batteries deteriorate over time and this cannot be avoided no matter what you do.

Also, can this be applied for all the other words, 'what, whatever, how, however, when, whenever, where, wherever?


Very simply, I would understand
Who told you?: I want to know the person, who told you.
Whoever told you, that ....,: I do not care who it really was, but I think the following about him or about what he told you.
RuthP
Posted: Friday, October 25, 2013 1:47:06 PM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 6/2/2009
Posts: 4,928
Neurons: 33,278
Location: Drain, Oregon, United States
traveller wrote:
A cooperator wrote:
Hello everyone!



I know that 'who' can be used to ask or talk about which person is involved.
However, 'whoever' can only be used to say that no matter who does something. But I sometimes be quite confused about using of these words and which one is the better to be used. Thus, Is there any rule or way helping choose the best word?
Can I use 'who' and 'whoever' in a question?
Who told you? Ali told me.
Whoever told you?
whoever kills a soul unless for a soul or for corruption [done] in the land - it is as if he had slain mankind entirely.

All batteries deteriorate over time and this cannot be avoided whatever you do.
All batteries deteriorate over time and this cannot be avoided no matter what you do.

Also, can this be applied for all the other words, 'what, whatever, how, however, when, whenever, where, wherever?



Very simply, I would understand
Who told you?: I want to know the person, who told you. Your understanding on this one is perfect.

This one is not quite right.
Whoever told you, that ....,: I do not care who it really was, but I think the following about him or about what he told you. I am very surprised anyone told you that; who would say such a thing/I cannot believe anyone said such a thing?
This is probably still a request for the name of the person who said 'that', although in some context it may be used to simply express surprise without the real expectation of an answer. That would be a rhetorical use.

Whether or not a question is rhetorical is heavily dependent on context and heavily dependent upon many social/cultural issues and often dependent upon personal/emotional issues or relationships of the individuals involved.
A cooperator
Posted: Friday, October 25, 2013 5:32:07 PM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 10/27/2011
Posts: 2,270
Neurons: 8,155
Location: Ḩāḑírah, Hadramawt, Yemen
traveller wrote:
A cooperator wrote:
Hello everyone!



I know that 'who' can be used to ask or talk about which person is involved.
However, 'whoever' can only be used to say that no matter who does something. But I sometimes be quite confused about using of these words and which one is the better to be used. Thus, Is there any rule or way helping choose the best word?
Can I use 'who' and 'whoever' in a question?
Who told you? Ali told me.
Whoever told you?
whoever kills a soul unless for a soul or for corruption [done] in the land - it is as if he had slain mankind entirely.

All batteries deteriorate over time and this cannot be avoided whatever you do.
All batteries deteriorate over time and this cannot be avoided no matter what you do.

Also, can this be applied for all the other words, 'what, whatever, how, however, when, whenever, where, wherever?


Very simply, I would understand
Who told you?: I want to know the person, who told you.
Whoever told you, that ....,: I do not care who it really was, but I think the following about him or about what he told you.

If you have a look at my first example again, you will be seeing that I answered 'Ali' on the first, which mean that I know that questioner wants to know the person's name. However, the second one, I didn't answer it, which means that questioner didn't care about the person's name who did something.

The matter is here:
I was only giving an example of using these words, however, I was asking about the confusion which can be when ' no mater what' as in this sentence can be used instead of 'whatever'

All batteries deteriorate over time and this cannot be avoided whatever you do.
All batteries deteriorate over time and this cannot be avoided no matter what you do.

However, about 'who told you?' it is obvious that 'what' asks about the subject because the object 'you' and and 'verb' are available. However, 'what' is asking about 'subject', which is required.

Also, whoever can never be used in a question. However, who can be.

Whoever doesn't own what he promises to those who do not deserve must not promise it.
Drag0nspeaker
Posted: Saturday, October 26, 2013 8:16:41 AM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 9/12/2011
Posts: 26,715
Neurons: 144,858
Location: Livingston, Scotland, United Kingdom
I'm sorry, I missed those in my examples.

As you showed in your original post, 'whoever' is often used in questions.

"Whoever told you that!"
"Whoever dreamed up that stupid idea?"
"Whoever thought to explain it that way? I didn't realise it could be that simple."
"Whoever decided on this amazing colour-scheme?"

The answer is not very important.

I have already implied "No matter who it was, he was wrong." or "No matter who it was, they are brilliant."

However, particularly in the last two, the 'asker' would have some interest in the answer.

********************
I did not understand your other point:

Quote:
A Cooperator I was asking about the confusion which can be when ' no mater what' as in this sentence can be used instead of 'whatever'

All batteries deteriorate over time and this cannot be avoided whatever you do.
All batteries deteriorate over time and this cannot be avoided no matter what you do.

There is no confusion - it is just two different ways of saying the same thing.

Quote:
A Cooperator However, about 'who told you?' it is obvious that 'what' asks about the subject because the object 'you' and and 'verb' are available. However, 'what' is asking about 'subject', which is required.

I do not understand the question. There is no "what" in the sentence "Who told you?"
I don't get what you mean by "...it is obvious that 'what' asks about the subject..."


Wyrd bið ful aræd - bull!
FounDit
Posted: Saturday, October 26, 2013 10:43:10 AM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 9/19/2011
Posts: 8,158
Neurons: 43,559
spam jump

A great many people will think they are thinking when they are merely rearranging their prejudices. ~ William James ~
A cooperator
Posted: Saturday, October 26, 2013 11:22:05 AM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 10/27/2011
Posts: 2,270
Neurons: 8,155
Location: Ḩāḑírah, Hadramawt, Yemen
FounDit wrote:
spam jump


Thanks a lot, FounDit, I really don't understand you.



Whoever doesn't own what he promises to those who do not deserve must not promise it.
A cooperator
Posted: Saturday, October 26, 2013 11:33:14 AM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 10/27/2011
Posts: 2,270
Neurons: 8,155
Location: Ḩāḑírah, Hadramawt, Yemen
Quote:
Drag0nspeaker wrote:
I'm sorry, I missed those in my examples.

As you showed in your original post, 'whoever' is often used in questions.

"Whoever told you that!"
"Whoever dreamed up that stupid idea?"
"Whoever thought to explain it that way? I didn't realise it could be that simple."
"Whoever decided on this amazing colour-scheme?"



Thanks a lot, Drag0nSpeaker,
NB: When I translated all the words mentioned into my Arabic language, I found difference between each pair of them, except who and whoever, I didn't find any difference between them, which maybe can be confusing alone.


Quote:
Drag0nspeaker wrote:

All batteries deteriorate over time and this cannot be avoided whatever you do.
All batteries deteriorate over time and this cannot be avoided no matter what you do.[/color]

There is no confusion - it is just two different ways of saying the same thing.


Also, as you may know, there is no explanation in the dictionaries saying that 'whatever' and 'no matter' can be used interchangeable


Drag0nspeaker wrote:

Quote:
A Cooperator However, about 'who told you?' it is obvious that 'what' asks about the subject because the object 'you' and and 'verb' are available. However, 'what' is asking about 'subject', which is required.

I do not understand the question. There is no "what" in the sentence "Who told you?"
I don't get what you mean by "...it is obvious that 'what' asks about the subject..."


Yes I was confusing yesterday while writing this question. I mean that 'who' asks about the subject which is missed.

Whoever doesn't own what he promises to those who do not deserve must not promise it.
Kerry.P
Posted: Monday, October 28, 2013 1:52:24 AM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 5/7/2012
Posts: 2,653
Neurons: 12,995
Location: Melbourne, Victoria, Australia
@ A coop: FounDit's post of "spam jump" was merely to move your post to the top of the list, "jumping" ahead of the spam posts that were appearing. :)
Drag0nspeaker
Posted: Monday, October 28, 2013 3:45:58 AM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 9/12/2011
Posts: 26,715
Neurons: 144,858
Location: Livingston, Scotland, United Kingdom
Hi again.

Possibly it is not in translating dictionaries, because "no matter what" is an idiom.
However, it is in the English - English dictionaries.

what·ev·er pron.
1. Everything or anything that: Do whatever you please.
2. What amount that; the whole of what: Whatever is left over is yours.
3. No matter what: Whatever happens, we'll meet here tonight.
American Heritage.
1. everything or anything that: do whatever he asks you to.
2. no matter what: whatever he does, he is forgiven.
Collins

****************
Definitely "Who" in "Who told you?" is the subject - and it is asking about that person.

"Whoever told you?" is also asking "who?" but with an emotion (surprised, shocked).
The only dictionary in TFD that shows this is the Random House. The others just ignore it.

who•ev•er
1. whatever person; anyone that: Whoever did it should be proud.
2. no matter who: I won't do it, whoever asks.
3. who? what person? (used to express astonishment): Whoever told you that?


The Oxford Advanced Learner's Dictionary also mentions the 'surprise' idea.


Wyrd bið ful aræd - bull!
A cooperator
Posted: Monday, October 28, 2013 4:49:36 AM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 10/27/2011
Posts: 2,270
Neurons: 8,155
Location: Ḩāḑírah, Hadramawt, Yemen
Thanks a lot, Drag0nspeaker,
As long as such words are being discussed at this thread, I have found it a chance to benefit from the word 'whatsoever' available in the email message below, already received.

While we truly emphasise your current predicament, as indicated in our initial email, the British Council does not manage the Chevening scheme and as such we will not be in the best position to advise you. More so as you have sent your emails to British Council in Singapore. We have no authority whatsoever on this scholarship scheme nor, being in Singapore, will we be able to advice you on schemes run in Yemen. As alerted earlier, responses to particular queries you may have on the Chevening scheme needs to come from the Chevening administrators.


Can: I replace 'whatsoever' with 'whatever'?

Finally: I think 'needs' would be 'need' without a 's' because the subject is 'responses to particular queries'



Whoever doesn't own what he promises to those who do not deserve must not promise it.
A cooperator
Posted: Monday, October 28, 2013 4:53:01 AM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 10/27/2011
Posts: 2,270
Neurons: 8,155
Location: Ḩāḑírah, Hadramawt, Yemen
KerryP wrote:
@ A coop: FounDit's post of "spam jump" was merely to move your post to the top of the list, "jumping" ahead of the spam posts that were appearing. :)


Thanks a lot, Kerry, I see.

Whoever doesn't own what he promises to those who do not deserve must not promise it.
Drag0nspeaker
Posted: Monday, October 28, 2013 5:41:57 AM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 9/12/2011
Posts: 26,715
Neurons: 144,858
Location: Livingston, Scotland, United Kingdom
Hi again, A cooperator.

You are right that it should be 'need', because the subject is plural.

There is a little disagreement between the dictionaries, concerning "whatsoever".

One says it is just an exact synonym for "whatever", another says it's an archaic form of 'whatever', and the third says that it's an intensive form of 'whatever'.

Personally, I would say that it is an 'older', but not yet archaic form of 'whatever'.

'Whatever' is already an intensifier, so saying that there is an intensive form of an intensifier seems 'a bit much'.

The more modern phrase would be 'at all':
"We have no authority at all ..."


Wyrd bið ful aræd - bull!
A cooperator
Posted: Monday, June 19, 2017 6:59:57 PM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 10/27/2011
Posts: 2,270
Neurons: 8,155
Location: Ḩāḑírah, Hadramawt, Yemen
Drag0nspeaker wrote:

who•ev•er
1. whatever person; anyone that: Whoever did it should be proud.
2. no matter who: I won't do it, whoever asks.
3. who? what person? (used to express astonishment): Whoever told you that?


The Oxford Advanced Learner's Dictionary also mentions the 'surprise' idea.


Thanks a lot, Dragonspeaker,
The thread is about 4-years old, however, I want and tend to keep all my posts being posted in the related threads.

I think 'whoever' should be used as :
1- An interrogative pronoun which is used to make asking questions easy:

"Whoever told you that?"
"Whoever dreamed up that stupid idea?"
"Whoever thought to explain it that way? I didn't realize it could be that simple."
"Whoever decided on this amazing colour-scheme?"


2- a nominative pronoun acting as the subject of a sentence :
- Whoever praises himself is either arrogant or cannot see himself well.("Whoever" is the subject)
- We all can do mistakes, but whoever insists on saying he doesn't do a mistake would never correct this mistakes('whoever' is the subject)
- Let whoever says whatever he wants will be wrong.('whoever' is the subject
- Whoever doesn't own what he promises to those who do not deserve must not promise it.('whoever' is the subject)


However, in these two sentences below, I don't think the use of 'whoever' is correct. If correct, then
I would be saying there are two subjects'whoever' and 'he' in 'whoever he is'

- And that person I told u about was/ is a Turkish man Or Syrian Or whoever he is.
- Can you hate whoever you love?

Whoever doesn't own what he promises to those who do not deserve must not promise it.
A cooperator
Posted: Tuesday, September 05, 2017 7:33:12 AM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 10/27/2011
Posts: 2,270
Neurons: 8,155
Location: Ḩāḑírah, Hadramawt, Yemen
Drag0nspeaker wrote:

who•ev•er
1. whatever person; anyone that: Whoever did it should be proud.
2. no matter who: I won't do it, whoever asks.
3. who? what person? (used to express astonishment): Whoever told you that?


The Oxford Advanced Learner's Dictionary also mentions the 'surprise' idea.


Thanks a lot, Dragonspeaker,
The thread is about 4-years old, however, I want and tend to keep all my posts being posted in the related threads.

What is the difference between "whatever" and "whatsoever"? I think both pronouns used for emphasis. I want to know their correct uses not to misuse them. You think I can use them interchangeable in a same sentence?
For, example, can I use them in the two sentences below interchangeable?

- All batteries deteriorate over time and this cannot be avoided whatever you do.

- No there is no underlined text and no ability whatsoever to embed photos or images in YouTube comments/ posts, all you get id Bold, Italic & strikethrough...



I think 'whoever' should be used as :
1- An interrogative pronoun which is used to make asking questions easy:

"Whoever told you that?"
"Whoever dreamed up that stupid idea?"
"Whoever thought to explain it that way? I didn't realize it could be that simple."
"Whoever decided on this amazing colour-scheme?"


2- a nominative pronoun acting as the subject of a sentence :
- Whoever praises himself is either arrogant or cannot see himself well.("Whoever" is the subject)
- We all can do mistakes, but whoever insists on saying he doesn't do a mistake would never correct this mistakes('whoever' is the subject)
- Let whoever says whatever he wants will be wrong.('whoever' is the subject
- Whoever doesn't own what he promises to those who do not deserve must not promise it.('whoever' is the subject)


However, in these two sentences below, I don't think the use of 'whoever' is correct. If correct, then
I would be saying there are two subjects'whoever' and 'he' in 'whoever he is'

- And that person I told u about was/ is a Turkish man Or Syrian Or whoever he is.
- Can you hate whoever you love?

Whoever doesn't own what he promises to those who do not deserve must not promise it.
A cooperator
Posted: Tuesday, September 12, 2017 10:16:01 PM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 10/27/2011
Posts: 2,270
Neurons: 8,155
Location: Ḩāḑírah, Hadramawt, Yemen
A cooperator wrote:
[quote=Drag0nspeaker]
who•ev•er
1. whatever person; anyone that: Whoever did it should be proud.
2. no matter who: I won't do it, whoever asks.
3. who? what person? (used to express astonishment): Whoever told you that?


The Oxford Advanced Learner's Dictionary also mentions the 'surprise' idea.


Thanks a lot, Dragonspeaker,
I am really confused about using such words, whoever, whatever, whatsoever, ect.
The thread is about 4-years old, however, I want and tend to keep all my posts being posted in the related threads.

What is the difference between "whatever" and "whatsoever"? I think both pronouns used for emphasis. I want to know their correct uses not to misuse them. You think I can use them interchangeable in a same sentence?
For example, I collected these sentences from somewhere, and I want to know I can use "whatever or whatsoever" in the four sentences below interchangeably?

- All batteries deteriorate over time and this cannot be avoided whatever you do.

- It is IDSS that installed the version 1.0.5 extension for Chrome, and whatever the appropriate versions for IE.

- I have to succeed, whatever the cost.

- No there is no underlined text and no ability whatsoever to embed photos or images in YouTube comments/ posts, all you get id Bold, Italic & strikethrough...



I think 'whoever' should be used as :
1- An interrogative pronoun which is used to make asking questions easy:

"Whoever told you that?"
"Whoever dreamed up that stupid idea?"
"Whoever thought to explain it that way? I didn't realize it could be that simple."
"Whoever decided on this amazing colour-scheme?"


2- a nominative pronoun acting as the subject of a sentence :
- Whoever praises himself is either arrogant or cannot see himself well.("Whoever" is the subject)
- We all can do mistakes, but whoever insists on saying he doesn't do a mistake would never correct this mistakes('whoever' is the subject)
- Let whoever says whatever he wants will be wrong.('whoever' is the subject
- Whoever doesn't own what he promises to those who do not deserve must not promise it.('whoever' is the subject)


However, in these two sentences below, I don't think the use of 'whoever' is correct. If correct, then
I would be saying there are two subjects'whoever' and 'he' in 'whoever he is'

- And that person I told u about was/ is a Turkish man Or Syrian Or whoever he is.
- Can you hate whoever you love?

Whoever doesn't own what he promises to those who do not deserve must not promise it.
Audiendus
Posted: Wednesday, September 13, 2017 12:10:49 AM
Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 8/24/2011
Posts: 4,247
Neurons: 731,811
Location: London, England, United Kingdom
A cooperator wrote:
What is the difference between "whatever" and "whatsoever"? I think both pronouns used for emphasis. I want to know their correct uses not to misuse them. You think I can use them interchangeable in a same sentence?

They are interchangeable if they immediately follow a noun to which they refer (e.g. "no ability whatever/whatsoever"), but otherwise only "whatever" is used in modern English.

A cooperator wrote:
I think 'whoever' should be used as :
1- An interrogative pronoun which is used to make asking questions easy:

"Whoever told you that?"
"Whoever dreamed up that stupid idea?"
"Whoever thought to explain it that way? I didn't realize it could be that simple."
"Whoever decided on this amazing colour-scheme?"

Yes.

A cooperator wrote:
2- a nominative pronoun acting as the subject of a sentence :
- Whoever praises himself is either arrogant or cannot see himself well.("Whoever" is the subject)
- We all can do make mistakes, but whoever insists on saying he doesn't do make a mistake would never correct this mistake ('whoever' is the subject)
- Let whoever says whatever he wants will be wrong.('whoever' is the subject) [Omit "let" - it is not appropriate here]
- Whoever doesn't own what he promises to those who do not deserve must not promise it.('whoever' is the subject)

Yes, with the corrections shown.

A cooperator wrote:
However, in these two sentences below, I don't think the use of 'whoever' is correct. If correct, then
I would be saying there are two subjects 'whoever' and 'he' in 'whoever he is'

- And that person I told u you about was/ is a Turkish man Or Syrian Or whoever he is. ['whoever' is a subject complement]
- Can you hate whoever you love? ['whoever you love' is the object of the main verb 'hate', and 'whoever' is the object of 'love']

'Whoever' or 'whatever' need not be the subject; they can be the subject complement, or the object of a verb or preposition.

'Whoever' and 'whatever' can also be the subject, subject complement or object of an adverbial clause, e.g:

Whatever happens, I will stay here.
Whoever you are, you must do as I say.
Whatever you do, be careful.
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