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Globalization’s ill effects have been wildly exaggerated Options
Hope123
Posted: Monday, May 15, 2017 8:15:23 PM

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Drag0nspeaker
Posted: Tuesday, May 16, 2017 7:45:21 PM

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I didn't go on to read the original report from which the newspaper report is taken, however, what I see missing is the effect of 'outsourcing'.

It talks about imports - how a lot of the effect of importing goods is offset by exports, and so on - which is, I'm sure, true.

However, the effect of (a hypothetical example) Acme Electronics Multinational sending the component parts from the UK to China, where they are made into mobile phones in massive Acme China factories for pennies and sent back to be sold by Acme Phones UK is that thousands of people in Acme UK factories are now out of a job. (The phones are not 'imported' they are transferred between factories).

Thus they have less money to spend. Tax money goes to supporting unemployed people and their families.

Trade is not 'globalisation'. They are totally different subjects.

It is not really political, as I see neither party in the US and virtually none of the political groups in the UK doing anything to handle the loss of PRODUCTION in the countries.

Actually producing something in the country and selling it (internally or exported) is where the wealth of a country comes from.
Living in a country and having things produced somewhere else may make profits for the investors in the multinationals, but does not increase the wealth of one's own country.


Wyrd bið ful aræd - bull!
Hope123
Posted: Saturday, May 20, 2017 10:51:12 AM

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Hi Drago. It took me a while to get back to you.

I agree with what you are saying especially about the necessity of creating new types of manufacturing jobs that stay in the country. As there is a different world economy now, countries and workers have to adjust. Those manufacturing jobs such as Ontario's textile and steel industries, which used to be robust, are not likely coming back. And there are new technologies and energy sources - the old energy jobs such as in coal are being phased out. There are three times as many jobs in green energy now. Those caught in the change will have to reeducate and adjust. That is difficult but there's no going back. The trick is to get the new types of jobs linked to innovation to stay in Canada or any country after development. Trudeau has recently allocated funds for that very purpose of encouragement to remain and set up production here, and to reeducate those caught in the transition.

However, there are many other reasons besides trade treaties that have created job loss in certain sectors. In Ontario about 10% of the loss of manufacturing jobs was from displacement by trade treaties. Other reasons - Ontario has a productivity gap. The 2008 recession created havoc everywhere. The exchange rate with the US has a huge effect and caused the loss of a lot of Ontario jobs in the last few years. Mechanization is another huge factor. (Right now our dollar is down so the US has the advantage of being able to buy cheap lumber, yet it just imposed 24% tariffs on softwood, creating many job losses in Canada. Now they are complaining that Bombardier just got bail out loans and Boeing wants adjustments. Canada just fought back telling Boeing they don't have to buy the planes they are ordering from Boeing. Trade wars do not work.)

::::
A longer version -

Some background from Canada's POV - Since Canada has an abundance of raw resources, it has always been more of a raw resources exporter - softwood for example. However, there are many (link below says 300,000) manufacturing jobs that have been lost in Ontario which had been THE manufacturing province.

My maternal grandfather made a very comfortable living in management in the textile industry which was strong in my area, and up until recently linens and cloth made here were readily found. But women such as myself no longer sew and require material now as their ancestors did, so changing habits and demand (such as women going into the workforce and not having time to sew) can affect any industry. Most clothing and cloth is now made and assembled in Asia where labor is cheaper because of rights of workers achieved by the necessary unions here. It is hard to fault companies for trying to make more profit but governments still gave those companies tax breaks even though they went offshore. The Ontario textile industry is hard to find now. Hamilton, Ontario, had a steel manufacturing industry - my friends who retired from Stelco are now losing some of their pensions and benefits and the company is gone from Hamilton. Companies like Trump's import steel from China instead of that made in the US and Canada. (It is not always advantageous to import - about half of the condos where we rented in Naples were made with wallboard made with asbestos - it came from China. We made sure to avoid those condos.)

Because of NAFTA, in 2013 we were able to buy a car assembled in Mexico - but it was made with US and Canadian parts. I thought that was great cooperation. Those parts had to be manufactured, so the location of an assembly plant is not the only consideration. A few days ago we bought a car assembled just down the road from us in the Oakville, Ontario plant. I can't find where the parts were made but since there is now a trade war with the US, I hope they were made in Canada. But the point is that with NAFTA, this intertwining of the many auto manufacturers and the three countries is possible. There are millions of jobs on all three sides tied directly to NAFTA so it would be foolish to scrap it rather than update it.

BTW - my husband has always refused to buy an "offshore" car because the agreement is not reciprocal. For instance Japanese cars are made in plants and sold here, but Canadian cars are not sold in Japan. His view is unusual as there are many many Japanese cars on the roads in Canada. However, Canada does profit from the investment of Japanese money in opening plants here.

Here is an article that explains that trade treaties caused about 10% of the loss of manufacturing jobs in Ontario. Other reasons - Ontario has a productivity gap. The 2008 recession created havoc everywhere. The exchange rate with the US has a huge effect and caused the loss of a lot of Ontario jobs in the last few years. Mechanization is another huge factor. Remember the Luddites in Britain years ago? Well, it is only going to get worse as more and more innovations are encouraged as a way to the future. (I recently saw an automated pizza delivery system for nearby locations that may cut down on a few jobs of pizza delivery people.)

Trudeau is bringing in incentives for the electronics and other industries for the young entrepreneurs and electronics geniuses to not only create innovations but to stay in Canada and set up businesses here. Too often we subsidize and educate these young people as doctors or computer science experts etc. who then move to the US or elsewhere - we call it the brain drain.
Even many of our film stars leave for Hollywood.


https://mowatcentre.ca/how-ontario-lost-300000-manufacturing-jobs/

The article gives ideas as to how to create more Ontario jobs by adjusting to a different world economy and ends with this:

"These kinds of policy approaches will not bring back traditional manufacturing jobs. Many of those jobs are likely gone forever. But the right public investments will provide the necessary foundation for the next wave of Ontario prosperity, aligned with a very different world economy, a different kind of advanced manufacturing sector, and with Ontario’s competitive advantages."

Equality is when you see a person - not a label.
Priscilla86
Posted: Monday, May 22, 2017 6:57:47 AM

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Hope, you have the right idea.

I always believe that the world constantly evolves and moves forward, and you have to adjust and adapt. Manufacturing jobs and linear job progression might be all the rage one, two generations ago but things are a-changing now. My dad got a job right after graduation and stayed with it for 27 years until he retired. I've already switched jobs three times and it's not even my 10th year in the workforce.

The heart of business is always to make as much profit, and I must say outsourcing might prove too lucrative for these business-minded people to pass up on. Government regulations can only help so much.

There's no point in comparing with how it used to be. As you said, it's difficult but there's no going back. I know it sucks for these people who get caught in the change / transition period, but these are the cards life has dealt them. Either suck it up and adjust, or spend the time whining about how things are not like the 'good old days' (which honestly, when do they ever stay the same?). Guess which one will bring you faster to contentment?


I love this quote by Eckhart Tolle which I think is relevant to this topic but also life in general:

"Whatever the present moment contains, accept it as if you had chosen it. Always work with it, not against it. make it your friend and ally, not your enemy. This will miraculously transform your whole life."


The greatest thing you'll ever learn is just to love and be loved in return.
Hope123
Posted: Monday, May 22, 2017 11:12:09 AM

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Priscilla, life has changed so much in the last 100 years and changes are happening so quickly now it is hard to keep up. I keep getting emails of ideas, products, and gadgets that were part of my life back then (to remind us how old we are - lol), that my grans cannot even imagine existed and I had forgotten all about them. Even now I look for replacement items and find they are no longer produced. Recently I was looking for a little hand held timer as the one I've had for years just died. I guess everybody uses their phones as timers now.

I just read an article that retail stores and malls will have problems maintaining existence in the not too distant future because of online shopping. They are already noticing the impact. Think of many of those jobs gone, but then shipping jobs would increase, I presume.

Newspapers have already felt the pinch because of online media.

With nano technology in its infancy, many more changes have happened we are not even aware of and more will happen. Lighter sporting equipment and bicycles, windows for high rises that clean themselves eliminating jobs as window cleaners, and so forth.

We do have to make sure technology does not completely ensnare us and limit our freedoms as it evolves even more quickly.

Equality is when you see a person - not a label.
Priscilla86
Posted: Friday, May 26, 2017 6:25:32 AM

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Hope123 wrote:
Priscilla, life has changed so much in the last 100 years and changes are happening so quickly now it is hard to keep up. I keep getting emails of ideas, products, and gadgets that were part of my life back then (to remind us how old we are - lol), that my grans cannot even imagine existed and I had forgotten all about them.


I didn't know people used to bake their own bread. Sliced bread are so readily and cheaply available that I thought who in their right mind would want to slave over a hot oven in the kitchen just to make bread. Didn't occur to me that buying sliced bread wasn't always an option.

While industrialization has helped people to lead a more convenient life, I can't help but wishing I had certain skills that I have been conveniently spared from learning such as how to gut a fish or clean game.

And I so wish I knew how to sew. I did learn it in home econ but it didn't stick. Even in my mom's generation this skill has been lost. I have a friend whose mom can sew like it was nothing. She told me whenever her mom had an event in the evening, she would buy the fabric in the morning, sew the dress during the day, and had a brand new dress to wear in the evening!


The greatest thing you'll ever learn is just to love and be loved in return.
Hope123
Posted: Friday, May 26, 2017 9:46:40 AM

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Priscilla, we have lost so many good skills - carpenters used to take pride in their craftmanship, even when building kitchen cupboards. Wooden articles used to be made of solid wood. You should see some of the sloppiness that has become evident in the construction of our condo. They did everything the cheapest and fastest ways and it has cost the owners thousands of dollars repairing leaks to the foundation and roof over the party room and so forth. And this is the norm nowadays.

With the advent of synthetic drugs, we are losing the knowledge of the various herbs and plants that help us.

As a child I gutted and cleaned chickens on the farm. I stooked sheaves of wheat, mucked out stalls, and cleaned out gutters in the barn. I raised my own rabbits and pigs. I picked all kinds of fruit and vegetables on neighboring farms for spending money. It was hard work but my Dad always said a bit of hard work never hurt anybody. At 14 I bugged the manager of a department store for work and he finally gave me a job operating the elevator. I worked there in sales for ten years, and even after I became a teacher I worked weekends there. One summer I had two jobs - there during the day and evenings and Sundays at a Convenience store. We didn't have time to get into trouble. I was going to say the work ethic is different now but it isn't really. I know business people who work 70 hour weeks.

I can still sew and have tailored a woman's suit - but I don't do it anymore. I am too much of a perfectionist and it can be frustrating plus it costs just as much if not more to buy the materials.

I still bake my own bread and buns. There is nothing to it now I have a machine to do the kneading and have a great cutting board. When we spent the winters in FL, I kneaded by hand. But I do it and prepare all my own food out of necessity because of food allergy and chemical sensitivity. Also, you can no longer buy just plain bread that is mostly whole wheat that is also organic. Nowadays the public wants spelt and kamut so that is what the companies give them. And I can make it a lot lot more cheaply - a loaf of organic bread in Canada and FL runs around $6.00 a loaf or more.

I wish Drago would give his definition of globalization since he says it is different from trade so it must encompass more to him. I assume Immigration is one added factor.

This article from a few days ago mentions that there are other causes for job loss - taxation, social policies, and warfare are three he mentions.

https://www.thestar.com/business/2017/05/19/globalization-can-no-longer-be-the-scapegoat-for-worlds-problems-olive.html


Equality is when you see a person - not a label.
Romany
Posted: Sunday, May 28, 2017 9:01:06 AM
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Actually Hope, I haven't really got a handle on what North America sees as Globalisation: Trump is the only person I've ever heard badgering on about it...but then he badgers on about the hoax of global warming; so I've never taken any notice.

The OECD defines globalization as

"The geographic dispersion of industrial and service activities, for example research and development, sourcing of inputs, production and distribution, and the cross-border networking of companies, for example through joint ventures and the sharing of assets."

There is one difference that I have noted also - none of the American definitions include mention of culture, but seem only to talk about trade.

But the cultural component of Globalisation doesn't take second place to Business for us. The sharing of education, information, skills, training, theatre, music, and even moral imperatives are the part of Globalisation that the average person (i.e. not the CEOs or shareholders etc.) deals with.

It's globalisation that is responsible for the flow of Asian students across the world; to the sharing of interns from all over the world in Summer Break; for bringing fresh excitement to our stages; for adding to our canons of literature; for increasingly easy communications; to wider - and enthusiastic - adoption of different kinds of food;and wider appreciation of music and Art. The most exciting thing of all (to me) Globalisation has resulted in cross discipline exchange and the application of technology to history, geology, art, drama...and empathy.

Because we are no longer living in our own isolated bubbles the world has become a far more exciting and spectacular place. Because we now are in touch with people from all over the world on a daily basis, too, we tend to extend our caring from not just our own circles but for those of people we've never met.

anyway, Drago will no doubt have more to add, but thought this might do in the interim.
Hope123
Posted: Sunday, May 28, 2017 12:45:09 PM

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Thanks, Romany. I agree. We have said for a long time that it's a small world and that trade should be included but labelled as global trade treaties. The reporters should not use shortcuts and refer to them as globalization without adding the words "of trade". Thanks to you and Drago for noting that distinction.

Equality is when you see a person - not a label.
Priscilla86
Posted: Monday, May 29, 2017 7:09:56 AM

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Whoa, Hope. Hopefully you pass down some of those skills to your children (or just anyone who might want to learn).

Romany wrote:

to wider - and enthusiastic - adoption of different kinds of food;


This, to me, is the best effect of globalization. Yes, please!


Romany wrote:
...and empathy.

Because we are no longer living in our own isolated bubbles the world has become a far more exciting and spectacular place. Because we now are in touch with people from all over the world on a daily basis, too, we tend to extend our caring from not just our own circles but for those of people we've never met.



Oh, and this, too.

The greatest thing you'll ever learn is just to love and be loved in return.
Drag0nspeaker
Posted: Tuesday, May 30, 2017 11:13:06 AM

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There are three - four MAJOR areas of 'globalisation' (as opposed to 'globalization' which is "furners stealing American jobs").

The diverse culture/food etc started really before I grew up - though it has probably accelerated.
When I was young (the 1950s and 1960s) we had Polish, Ukraine, Barbadian, Pakistani and Indian neighbours. Curry was a common food - Greek, Turkish, Indian and Chinese restaurants were common.

By the time I reached university (I left school and worked for five years first, so it was in the 1970s) the Orient had joined the club. I was at one of the first British "Science and Technology" universities - the "Arts, Languages and Humanities" faculty was two lecturers and about thirty students. My fellow students were mainly Chinese, Japanese, Indian, and a few Germans, Russians and Americans.

In that same period, the music, arts, religions of the world 'unified' - Ravi Shankar with The Beatles, Marianne Faithful singing Russian folk-songs, the Rada Krishna Temple touring Britain . . .

That's two sub-sections.

World free trade was another which probably started around that time, but wasn't so noticeable. It grew more slowly, but things like the selection of fruit in a greengrocer's shop changed from "apples, bananas and oranges" in 1962 to "apples, bananas, oranges, mangoes, papaya, kumquats, kiwis . . . etc" by 1970.
That was just an example. It was the same across the boards. It worked really well for everyone so long as trade was free.
The time from the beginnings of all this until about 1975 were really great (free trade was limited a bit from 1968 onwards because we joined the EEC - and then, around 1975, was almost halted when the EU started putting quotas and limits on trade with anyone except France and Germany).

The fourth section of globalisation is the one which really collapses economies if not handled. This is outsourcing of production.
This fourth section is the normal definition of 'globalization' as mentioned in the news and financial articles:
Quote:
"The geographic dispersion of industrial and service activities, for example research and development, sourcing of inputs, production and distribution, and the cross-border networking of companies, for example through joint ventures and the sharing of assets."


EFTA (the European Free Trade Association) had the effect which you mention for NAFTA - increase of productivity in all the countries involved.
When Britain left EFTA and joined the EU, that all stopped - it took a while as the trade coalition "European Economic Community" morphed into the super-state "The European Union" - basically the United States of Europe, with Brussels instead of Washington.

Then -just after the 1980s was when it was really noticeable, the multinationals evolved outside of any national boundaries - many of them with charters and organisational structures which meant they could shift income from country to country to sub-company in such a way that they paid no taxes to ANY country.
The result of this for Britain had no reciprocity. Jobs went abroad, local production dropped, exports dropped, imports increased, the number and percentage of people unemployed rose dramatically, the gap between 'average wage' and 'corporate income' increased enormously.

The percentage of the workforce unemployed between 1945 and 1970 was level between 2.5 and 3.0% - in 1974 it was 3.4%.
Eight years later 1982, it was 13% - almost four times as many.
It has gone up and down since then, but rarely below 6.0 and currently level at around 8%.
(You also have to remember that they keep changing the definition of 'unemployed' to make the figures look better).



With companies and their owners now having no affiliation to any nation except "The One Percent" (the already-stinking-rich) there is no 'governor' to control the rate of inflation - especially if the government don't do anything to even try to handle it.

Quote:
"It is truly enough said that a corporation has no conscience"
Thoreau

Wyrd bið ful aræd - bull!
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