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Are the following explanations true? Options
DavidLearn
Posted: Friday, April 21, 2017 5:08:26 AM

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Hi teachers,
Open or Real Future Conditional (1st Conditional)
Are the following explanations true for the open or real future conditional (1st Conditional)? Is that so?

When the “if-clause” has a verb in the simple present tense expressing a state, not an action, we can read that clause as referring to present or future. How we read it depends on the context. If the “if-clause” has a verb in the simple present tense expressing an action, we can read that clause as referring only to the future.

Examples:
1. If the baby is hungry, he will cry.
Explanation: The person is saying that if now or in the future the baby is hungry, he will cry. The result (he will cry) is always 100% certain.
In conclusion: If now or in the future the baby is hungry as a result he will cry.

**************************
2. If I miss the train, I will drive to work.
Explanation: The person has not missed the train yet. He is saying that if in the future I miss the train, I will drive to work. The result (I will drive to work) is always 100% certain.
In conclusion: If in the future I miss the train as a result I will drive to work.

Thanks.
Kirill Vorobyov
Posted: Friday, April 21, 2017 5:20:02 AM

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I am not a native speaker, so I strongly encourage you wait for a response from one before coming to the final conclusion, but I think whether the if-clause refers to future or not depends on the tense in the other clause.

If I miss the train, I drive to my workplace.

I think this is a legitimate sentence. It means whenever or every time I miss the train I drive. A general statement referring to both past and future.
DavidLearn
Posted: Friday, April 21, 2017 5:27:54 AM

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Kirill Vorobyov wrote:
I am not a native speaker, so I strongly encourage you wait for a response from one before coming to the final conclusion, but I think whether the if-clause refers to future or not depends on the tense in the other clause.

If I miss the train, I drive to my workplace.

I think this is a legitimate sentence. It means whenever or every time I miss the train I drive. A general statement referring to both past and future.

Hi Kirill Vorobyov,
Thanks for you reply and interest, but here I'm talking about the Open or Real Future Conditional (1st Conditional).

The dependent if-clasuse = Simple Present + The independent clause = will + simple form.

David.
tunaafi
Posted: Friday, April 21, 2017 5:30:25 AM

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DavidLearn wrote:

2. If I miss the train, I will drive to work.
Explanation: The person has not missed the train yet. He is saying that if in the future I miss the train, I will drive to work. The result (I will drive to work) is always 100% certain.
In conclusion: If in the future I miss the train as a result I will drive to work.

That's correct.

However, it is also possible to use this utterance in the sense of:

If it hapens in my general routine that I miss the train, then it is typical of me that I drive to work.

Far away is close at hand in images of elsewhere – The Master of Paddington.
Kirill Vorobyov
Posted: Friday, April 21, 2017 5:41:55 AM

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DavidLearn wrote:
Thanks for you reply and interest, but here I'm talking about the Open or Real Future Conditional (1st Conditional).

The dependent if-clasuse = Simple Present + The independent clause = will + simple form.

David.


Wow, sorry, I never realized it was so narrowly defined.Pray I wonder how many those types they have then.

DavidLearn
Posted: Friday, April 21, 2017 5:51:35 AM

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tunaafi wrote:
DavidLearn wrote:

2. If I miss the train, I will drive to work.
Explanation: The person has not missed the train yet. He is saying that if in the future I miss the train, I will drive to work. The result (I will drive to work) is always 100% certain.
In conclusion: If in the future I miss the train as a result I will drive to work.

That's correct.

However, it is also possible to use this utterance in the sense of:

If it hapens in my general routine that I miss the train, then it is typical of me that I drive to work.


Hi tunaafi,
Thanks for the reply. I also know about the Open or Real Present Conditional (Zero Conditional) that it is used to talk about habits, facts, and truths, under certain conditions. Right?

My question is more on the explanation about "Open or Real Future Conditional (1st Conditional)". If it's correct to make the distinction between action and non action verbs to refer to the time.

Are the following explanations true for the open or real future conditional (1st Conditional)? Is that so?

When the “if-clause” has a verb in the simple present tense expressing a state, not an action, we can read that clause as referring to present or future. How we read it depends on the context. If the “if-clause” has a verb in the simple present tense expressing an action, we can read that clause as referring only to the future.

David.
DavidLearn
Posted: Friday, April 21, 2017 5:55:45 AM

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Kirill Vorobyov wrote:
Wow, sorry, I never realized it was so narrowly defined.Pray I wonder how many those types they have then.

Hi again,
No worries.
I really don't know, Whistle but those are quite common.

David.
Kirill Vorobyov
Posted: Friday, April 21, 2017 5:59:16 AM

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I don't think we can safely make such a distinction.

The verb to create is obviously an action.

Say, a school's policy: If a pupil creates problems, he will be expelled.

Or a modernized gender-neutral version:
If a pupil creates problems, they will be expelled.


This is a general policy, it refers both to past and future. If they create problems, they are out.
DavidLearn
Posted: Friday, April 21, 2017 6:25:29 AM

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Kirill Vorobyov wrote:
I don't think we can safely make such a distinction.

The verb to create is obviously an action.

Say, a school's policy: If a pupil creates problems, he will be expelled.

Or a modernized gender-neutral version:
If a pupil creates problems, they will be expelled.


This is a general policy, it refers both to past and future. If they create problems, they are out.

Hi Kirill,
Think I belive that sentence is better expressed using the Zero Conditional if we are talking about the school's policy. "If pupils create problems, they are expelled."
Every time pupils create problems as a result they are expelled.

David.
Kirill Vorobyov
Posted: Friday, April 21, 2017 6:34:10 AM

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I agree, but the reader has no way to know whether you mean a 1st Conditional, or a similarly looking Zero Conditional. So a rule like that would only hold within one particular chapter of the grammar book where they know they study 1st Conditionals.
DavidLearn
Posted: Friday, April 21, 2017 6:40:10 AM

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Kirill Vorobyov wrote:
I agree, but the reader has no way to know whether you mean a 1st Conditional, or a similarly looking Zero Conditional. So a rule like that would only hold within one particular chapter of the grammar book where they know they study 1st Conditionals.

Hi Kirill,
That's right the reader doesn't have to know them at all, but, I believe, we use tenses to express time and in the case of conditionals results too, don't we? Depends on what you want to express we use one tense or another, don't we?

David.
Kirill Vorobyov
Posted: Friday, April 21, 2017 6:51:22 AM

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I am not a grammarian, so it's hard for me to speak in those terms, but I have made up two passages below to illustrate my point.

1. Tomorrow is Chris' first day in office. He wants to go to the city by train. If he misses the train, he will drive.

2. Usually Chris goes to the city by train, that's his preferred way, he doesn't like driving. But he hates beeing late, too. If he misses the train, he will drive.

The underlined sentences look similar, but convey diffirent meanings. From what I've learnt from your thread, I understand in passage (1) it is 1st Conditional, while in passage (2) it is Zero Conditional. The rule you are proposing would only hold for passage #1.

We have not heard from native speakers yet, though.Angel
Romany
Posted: Friday, April 21, 2017 7:11:12 AM
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Umm...Tuna is a native English speaker and has taught the subject for many years.
Kirill Vorobyov
Posted: Friday, April 21, 2017 7:17:15 AM

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Romany wrote:

Umm...Tuna is a native English speaker and has taught the subject for many years.


Opps, sorry. Since her (hmm, Tuna is a female name, I guess?) location is Czech Republic, I thought she was Czech who just spoke English very well.
Do you guys know each other in the real life, by the way? I seem to be a blind stranger in a company of friends. Dancing
DavidLearn
Posted: Friday, April 21, 2017 7:21:11 AM

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Romany wrote:

Umm...Tuna is a native English speaker and has taught the subject for many years.

Hi Romany,
Yeah! He's awesome! But you have done that too, I believe!

David.
DavidLearn
Posted: Friday, April 21, 2017 7:24:03 AM

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Kirill Vorobyov wrote:
Romany wrote:

Umm...Tuna is a native English speaker and has taught the subject for many years.


Opps, sorry. Since her (hmm, Tuna is a female name, I guess?) location is Czech Republic, I thought she was Czech who just spoke English very well.
Do you guys know each other in the real life, by the way? I seem to be a blind stranger in a company of friends. Dancing


Hi Kirill,
Tuna is man, I believe.
We've been a few years around the Forum. Angel

David.
Kirill Vorobyov
Posted: Friday, April 21, 2017 7:26:41 AM

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DavidLearn wrote:

Yeah! He's awesome! But you have done that too, I believe!

David.


So is she he after all??
DavidLearn
Posted: Friday, April 21, 2017 7:28:02 AM

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Kirill Vorobyov wrote:
DavidLearn wrote:

Yeah! He's awesome! But you have done that too, I believe!

David.


So is she he after all??

Tuna? I think so.

David.
tunaafi
Posted: Friday, April 21, 2017 7:48:09 AM

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Kirill Vorobyov wrote:
1. Tomorrow is Chris' first day in office. He wants to go to the city by train. If he misses the train, he will drive.

2. Usually Chris goes to the city by train, that's his preferred way, he doesn't like driving. But he hates beeing late, too. If he misses the train, he will drive.

The underlined sentences look similar, but convey diffirent meanings. From what I've learnt from your thread, I understand in passage (1) it is 1st Conditional, while in passage (2) it is Zero Conditional.


The first is indeed what is tradiionally known as a first conditional.

Although it does not look like the traditional examples of first conditionals, the second is a zero conditional in that it is talking about things that are generally true.

I don't like the labels zero, first, second, third and mixed conditionals. They tell us nothing abut what messages such conditional sentences can convey, and they are far to often accompanied by such guidelines as "first conditional = if + present, will". In fact, a wide range of tenses, aspects and modals is possible in conditional sentences.

I prefer to use the expression factual conditional for a sentence about things that are generally true. Some of the tenses, aspects and modals that can be used in such sentences are shown in:

If Susan cooks, I wash up.
If it’s ten o’clock already, then I’m late.
If you heat ice, it will melt.
If water has been boiled for twenty minutes, it is completely sterile.
If the metal snaps, it has been subjected to extreme stress.
If a dog is wagging its tail, it’s happy
If you can speak Swedish, you can understand Danish.
If Susan cooked, I washed up.
(In the past)
If Pauline is working in the garden, Rob often goes down to the pub.
If Susan cooks, I will wash up.
(Generally)

I prefer to use the term 'predictive conditionl for sentences stating that the future [non-]occurrence or [non-]existence of an action or state is a consequence of some really possible prior action or state. Some of the tenses, aspects and modals that can be used in such sentences are shown in:


If it’s fine tomorrow, we will have a barbecue.
If Joan phones, let’s invite her to dinner.
We’re going to take strike action if they won’t give us a rise.
If you will come with me, I’ll take you to the meeting.
If the offer has arrived by the end of the week, we’ll accept.
If I’m not in the office tomorrow, I’ll have caught the bug that’s going around.
I may resign if Sam gives Laura the job,
If Wendy arrives tomorrow, I take her to see the new play.
If Sally arrives tomorrow, she will have completed the job.
Stan will be here soon, if he managed to catch the train.



Far away is close at hand in images of elsewhere – The Master of Paddington.
DavidLearn
Posted: Friday, April 21, 2017 7:52:17 AM

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Hi tunaafi,
Is it correct to make the distinction between action and non action verbs to refer to time in the "Predictive Conditional or Open or Real Future Conditional" or it isn't correct at all?

tunaafi wrote:
I prefer to use the term 'predictive conditional" for sentences stating that the future [non-]occurrence or [non-]existence of an action or state is a consequence of some really possible prior action or state.


David.
tunaafi
Posted: Friday, April 21, 2017 7:58:03 AM

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I am male - at least, I was the last time I looked. (Min you, my eyesight is not as good as it used to be.)

Those of us who have been around the forum for some time tend to look on other old hands as (forum) friends, but most of us have never met in person. . Many of us have no form of oummunication outside the forum pages. We welcome 'new hands'.

I am a native speaker of (British English) Some of us are not native speakers, but you cannot tell that from the high quality of their answers

If you come here often, you'll soon feel completely at home. One or two of us are a bit cranky at times (not me, of course), but generaly speaking we are happy to be here in the company of people who are interested in language.


Far away is close at hand in images of elsewhere – The Master of Paddington.
tunaafi
Posted: Friday, April 21, 2017 8:02:13 AM

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DavidLearn wrote:
Hi tunaafi,
Is it correct to make the distinction between action and non action verbs to refer to time in the "Predictive Conditional or Open or Real Future Conditional" or it isn't correct at all?


I see no real benefit in making such a distinction in conditional sentences.

Far away is close at hand in images of elsewhere – The Master of Paddington.
DavidLearn
Posted: Friday, April 21, 2017 12:46:32 PM

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DavidLearn wrote:
Is it correct to make the distinction between action and non action verbs to refer to time in the "Predictive Conditional or Open or Real Future Conditional" or it isn't correct at all?

tunaafi wrote:
I see no real benefit in making such a distinction in conditional sentences.

Hi tunaafi,
Got it. Then I won't. But just out of curiosity, does that, let's say, rule exist?

David.
tunaafi
Posted: Friday, April 21, 2017 3:08:34 PM

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I can't think of any rule about action and non-action verbs that applies specifically to conditional senetences.

Far away is close at hand in images of elsewhere – The Master of Paddington.
DavidLearn
Posted: Friday, April 21, 2017 5:06:26 PM

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tunaafi wrote:
I can't think of any rule about action and non-action verbs that applies specifically to conditional senetences.


Thanks for your help, tunaafi.

David.
Kirill Vorobyov
Posted: Monday, April 24, 2017 5:52:00 AM

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tunaafi wrote:

I prefer to use the expression factual conditional for a sentence about things that are generally true. Some of the tenses, aspects and modals that can be used in such sentences are shown in:

If Susan cooks, I wash up.
If it’s ten o’clock already, then I’m late.
If you heat ice, it will melt.
If water has been boiled for twenty minutes, it is completely sterile.
If the metal snaps, it has been subjected to extreme stress.
If a dog is wagging its tail, it’s happy
If you can speak Swedish, you can understand Danish.
If Susan cooked, I washed up.
(In the past)
If Pauline is working in the garden, Rob often goes down to the pub.
If Susan cooks, I will wash up.
(Generally)

I prefer to use the term 'predictive conditionl for sentences stating that the future [non-]occurrence or [non-]existence of an action or state is a consequence of some really possible prior action or state. Some of the tenses, aspects and modals that can be used in such sentences are shown in:


If it’s fine tomorrow, we will have a barbecue.
If Joan phones, let’s invite her to dinner.
We’re going to take strike action if they won’t give us a rise.
If you will come with me, I’ll take you to the meeting.
If the offer has arrived by the end of the week, we’ll accept.
If I’m not in the office tomorrow, I’ll have caught the bug that’s going around.
I may resign if Sam gives Laura the job,
If Wendy arrives tomorrow, I take her to see the new play.
If Sally arrives tomorrow, she will have completed the job.
Stan will be here soon, if he managed to catch the train.

[/color]


Thank you very much, Tuna!
(And sorry for the mistake with the gender. That's my Slavic "bug", I guess, as the "a" termination is often a sign of the feminine gender in this part of the Continent... This applies not only to names, but to nouns, adjectives, and even verbs, like "she did" would differ from "he did" by adding the -a termination to the verb).

Am I right that in these two examples of yours "will" in the if-clause is the main verb, so technically it is not future tense:

We’re going to take strike action if they won’t give us a rise.
If you will come with me, I’ll take you to the meeting.

?
Drag0nspeaker
Posted: Monday, April 24, 2017 9:29:07 AM

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I had similar trouble - not specifically with "a" endings, but with 'familiar names'.

I have friends called Michal (male) and Nima (female). When I saw members here with those names, I assumed . . .Brick wall
I was wrong, Michal was female and Nima was male.

***************
I think that you are right with those two usages of 'will' - they are more the "original" idea of 'having an intention to do, or acceptance of, an action'. However, they are still modal auxiliary verbs for the main verbs 'give' and 'come' - they just express a different idea than 'future tense'.

We’re going to take strike action if they won’t give us a rise. - "Will not" or "won't" is the negative of "have an intention to".
We’re going to take strike action if they refuse to give us a rise.

If you will come with me, I’ll take you to the meeting.
If you 'accept the action of coming with me', I’ll take you to the meeting.

The last usage (I'll take you . . .) is a normal "future form".

***************
In answer to your question of last week - I've counted at least thirteen different "conditional" forms (I was challenged to find more than a dozen) but I'm sure there are more. Zero, one, two and three makes absolutely no sense to me.

I have my own system of labelling, based on:
1. When the condition might (or might not) have occurred or occur,
2. When the result might (or might not) have occurred or occur,
3. Whether the condition is possible or impossible,
4. Whether the result is possible or impossible,
5. The probability (or improbability) of the condition, if possible,
6. The probability (or improbability) of the result, if it is possible at all.

"If he hasn't told her yet, she might have bought the lunch already."
This is 'past condition, possible and probable, past result possible and probable'.
"If he had told her, she might have bought the lunch already."
This is 'past impossible/unreal condition, past possible, but non-existent result'.
"If he had told her, she might have bought the lunch tomorrow."
This is 'past impossible/unreal condition, future possible, but non-existent result'.
"If he had told her, she would have bought the lunch tomorrow."
This is 'past impossible/unreal condition, future definite, but non-existent result'.

So there should be thirty-six at least (more if you count 'probable, likely, fairly probable, not very likely, not very probable and improbable' as grades of '5' and '6').
However, some of them are impossible - you can't have a past result for a future condition, for instance.




Wyrd bið ful aræd - bull!
Kirill Vorobyov
Posted: Tuesday, April 25, 2017 4:37:26 AM

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Thank you very much, DragonSpeaker! Your examples have certainly made me think, especially these two:

Drag0nspeaker wrote:

"If he had told her, she might have bought the lunch tomorrow."
This is 'past impossible/unreal condition, future possible, but non-existent result'.
"If he had told her, she would have bought the lunch tomorrow."
This is 'past impossible/unreal condition, future definite, but non-existent result'.


But I think I have finally managed to imagine a situation where they would make sense, if I understand correctly. Like, say, there will be an important meeting that "he" and "she" have to take part in tomorrow at 1pm, so it is advisable that she buys the lunch for two of them before some deadline (say, 12:30) so when he comes at around 12:40 they can have lunch quickly and go to the meeting. But he forgot to tell her to do that. If he had told her, she might have bought the lunch tomorrow. Right?

Drag0nspeaker wrote:

However, some of them are impossible - you can't have a past result for a future condition, for instance.



What about this:

He is a lazy and lousy guy. Last month he called and told me he couldn't come because he was sick and then was seen on a beach with his girlfriend on that same day. Next time he said he was stuck in traffic and couldn't get to our office before the end of day anyway, so he didn't show up again. Tomorrow he promised he would go by train. If he misses the train - bullshit - he will just have stayed home. I mean, then be sure he will never have gotten out of his bed.
Drag0nspeaker
Posted: Tuesday, April 25, 2017 5:03:44 AM

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I think your first example works . . . Anxious

The second one may sound like a past result, but that tense "he will have stayed home" is the future perfect.

It is a . . . 'future real possible condition, future possible and definite result'.

Wyrd bið ful aræd - bull!
tunaafi
Posted: Tuesday, April 25, 2017 5:57:50 AM

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Kirill Vorobyov wrote:

Am I right that in these two examples of yours "will" in the if-clause is the main verb, so technically it is not future tense:

We’re going to take strike action if they won’t give us a rise.
If you will come with me, I’ll take you to the meeting.

?


Just to add to what Drag0 said.

I am with those grammarians who believe that English has no future tense. Will is simply one of the modals. It is a present-tense form. Like all present tense forms, modal and lexical, it can be used to refer to future situations.

It is past midnight. John will be in bed now. Present certainty about a present state
It is past midnight. John will have gone to bed. Present certainty about a past event
John will be in bed when we get home. Present certainty about a future state
John will have gone to bed by the time we get home tonight. Present certainty about a future event preceding a later future event

They won't give us a rise.
Either: Present refusal/unwillingness
Or: Present certainty about a future (non-)event.

We are going to take strike action if they won't give us a rise.
Future refusal/unwillingness. (We normally use a present-tense form in temporal and conditional clause about future states/events.)

If you will come with me, I’ll take you to the meeting.
will come - present/future willingness
'll take - present/future offer








Far away is close at hand in images of elsewhere – The Master of Paddington.
tunaafi
Posted: Tuesday, April 25, 2017 5:57:50 AM

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Kirill Vorobyov wrote:

Am I right that in these two examples of yours "will" in the if-clause is the main verb, so technically it is not future tense:

We’re going to take strike action if they won’t give us a rise.
If you will come with me, I’ll take you to the meeting.

?


Just to add to what Drag0 said.

I am with those grammarians who believe that English has no future tense. Will is simply one of the modals. It is a present-tense form. Like all present tense forms, modal and lexical, it can be used to refer to future situations.

It is past midnight. John will be in bed now. Present certainty about a present state
It is past midnight. John will have gone to bed. Present certainty about a past event
John will be in bed when we get home. Present certainty about a future state
John will have gone to bed by the time we get home tonight. Present certainty about a future event preceding a later future event

They won't give us a rise.
Either: Present refusal/unwillingness
Or: Present certainty about a future (non-)event.

We are going to take strike action if they won't give us a rise.
Future refusal/unwillingness. (We normally use a present-tense form in temporal and conditional clause about future states/events.)

If you will come with me, I’ll take you to the meeting.
will come - present/future willingness
'll take - present/future offer








Far away is close at hand in images of elsewhere – The Master of Paddington.
Kirill Vorobyov
Posted: Tuesday, April 25, 2017 6:02:06 AM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 10/4/2016
Posts: 145
Neurons: 754
Location: Moscow, Moscow, Russia
Okay, what about this:

If he misses the train, he will have bullshitted us again.


Meaning, if tomorrow we learn he has "missed" the train, then be sure he lied us again about his coming tomorrow. Then this refers to the past, although I understand technically it still has to be "future perfect".
Kirill Vorobyov
Posted: Tuesday, April 25, 2017 6:54:50 AM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 10/4/2016
Posts: 145
Neurons: 754
Location: Moscow, Moscow, Russia
tunaafi wrote:

I am with those grammarians who believe that English has no future tense. Will is simply one of the modals. It is a present-tense form. Like all present tense forms, modal and lexical, it can be used to refer to future situations.

It is past midnight. John will be in bed now. Present certainty about a present state
It is past midnight. John will have gone to bed. Present certainty about a past event
John will be in bed when we get home. Present certainty about a future state
John will have gone to bed by the time we get home tonight. Present certainty about a future event preceding a later future event

They won't give us a rise.
Either: Present refusal/unwillingness
Or: Present certainty about a future (non-)event.

We are going to take strike action if they won't give us a rise.
Future refusal/unwillingness. (We normally use a present-tense form in temporal and conditional clause about future states/events.)

If you will come with me, I’ll take you to the meeting.
will come - present/future willingness
'll take - present/future offer
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Thank you very much, Tuna, for these explanations. Yes, this is not exactly the way they teach it in schools, so no wonder in some situations foreign learners are unsure.
Drag0nspeaker
Posted: Tuesday, April 25, 2017 6:59:15 AM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 9/12/2011
Posts: 25,238
Neurons: 131,330
Location: Livingston, Scotland, United Kingdom
Dammit!
That's another one to add to the collection! My imagination just wasn't stretched to the point of finding sentence with a past result for a future condition.

Grammatically (allowing a future idea), it's: Future real (quite likely) condition, definite past real result.

Of course, logically, the cause and effect is the opposite.
The cause is he lied and didn't intend to come therefore he missed the train.

From a holistic, universal viewpoint, "if he lied, he'll miss the train".

From our viewpoint, the first thing we see is whether he misses the train or not.


Wyrd bið ful aræd - bull!
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