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Doubt about Such Options
You know who I am
Posted: Wednesday, April 19, 2017 3:36:00 PM

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Hey guys, how are you?

I have had some problems in understanding Such as a determiner:

Some pages say that Such can act as a determiner and pre-determiner; however, I'm still trying to figure out the difference between it being used as a determiner and pre-determiner:

When such is used as a predeterminer, it is followed by 'a' and a count noun in the singular. When it is used as a determiner, it is followed by a count noun in the plural or by an uncount noun.
Collins Dictionary

So, here is what I think: When Such is used with a singular noun, I need to add the "A/An", so it will automatically turn into a "pre-determiner" because it is followed by another determiner, correct? However, when it is used with plural or non-countable noun, so I don't need to add the "A/An"; therefore, it will automatically turn into a determiner, for there is no other determiner following it, correct?


I am the way, and the truth and the life, no one comes to the Father except through Me. - John 14:6
Drag0nspeaker
Posted: Wednesday, April 19, 2017 4:46:43 PM

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I've never heard of a predeterminer before (determiners and all these new terms were invented after I had left school). I learned about determiners a couple of years ago, but no-one mentioned predeterminers.

"Such" used in such a way is an adjective.

It tells what kind of <thing>.

When you talk about things, what do you say?

I want an apple.
I saw a dog.
I like apples.
I mean dogs.


A singular noun uses an article (a, an, the) - a plural (or uncountable) does not.

"Such" is just added into the sentence to say what kind of apple, apples, dog or dogs you mean - adjectivally.

I want such an apple.
I saw such a dog.
I like such apples.
I mean such dogs.


such adj.
1.a. Of this kind: a single parent, one of many such people in the neighborhood.
TFD

Wyrd bið ful aræd - bull!
Morgaen
Posted: Wednesday, April 19, 2017 7:10:53 PM

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Location: Knock, Connaught, Ireland
yup, this works for me.

Your interpretation of the predeterminer/determiner thing makes perfect sense for the word such, YKWIA (sorry I was so tempted to try an acronym here ;)

(Now I just realized I use this 'predeterminer' on a daily basis when I tell myself "I'm such an eejit".)

But for what it's worth, I also found this other example for the 'determiner' situation:
It is the only such course in the UK. (i.e. the only course of that kind)

I hear there are other types of predeterminers, then, such as the multipliers and the fractional expressions (so they say):
He makes double my salary; yet he does half the work. (I just wanted to say that somewhere)
You know who I am
Posted: Thursday, April 20, 2017 7:24:11 PM

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Thank you Drag0n and Morgaen!

Great answers, as always.

Drag0nSpeaker wrote:
determiners and all these new terms were invented after I had left school


- How old are you, Drag?[/font]

I am the way, and the truth and the life, no one comes to the Father except through Me. - John 14:6
thar
Posted: Thursday, April 20, 2017 7:56:13 PM

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This seems a rather superficial label, in that it doesn't really describe its role. Just where it appears. I can't see how that label helps anyone construct a sentence.
People have enough trouble with determiners, then you have to equivocate and shift to call it a pre- because there is already a determiner there? I suspect if this were engineering instead of linguistics you would realise it isn't working and start again.

Or, as has often been said here before - these terms are fine for linguistic analysis, but not necessarily suited to language learning! Think
Drag0nspeaker
Posted: Thursday, April 20, 2017 7:58:27 PM

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Joined: 9/12/2011
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Location: Livingston, Scotland, United Kingdom
You know who I am wrote:
Drag0nSpeaker wrote:
determiners and all these new terms were invented after I had left school

- How old are you, Drag?[/font]

I'm sixty-six years and eleven months old.

I left school in 1966.

I could probably, with many hour's work, find all the articles and papers again which I used to sort out 'determiners' for myself - but here's the summary.

The word 'determiner' in linguistics was used specifically for a type of symbol in a very few languages which use glyphs to represent whole concepts - Egyptian Hieroglyphics, written Chinese and written languages of that sort.

In 1972, one linguist wrote a short book (or long dissertation) on the subject of "quantification".
It was very complex, but covered the relationships, which are the same in many languages, between concepts such as articles (a, the) and numbers and possessives and so on. The writer called all these things "quantifiers".

Later work on the same subject in 1973 renamed them 'determiners', "stealing" the word and changing its meaning.
Prior to 1973, there was no such thing in English Grammar - or in any grammar except Ancient Egyptian, Chinese etc - as a determiner.

There were eight "parts of speech" - noun, pronoun, verb, adjective, adverb, preposition, conjunction, and interjection. These are all the classifications needed to fully describe the function of any word in any sentence. Most grammars also used 'article' as a sub-section of 'adjectives'.


Wyrd bið ful aræd - bull!
You know who I am
Posted: Thursday, April 20, 2017 8:07:46 PM

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thar wrote:
These terms are fine for linguistic analysis, but not necessarily suited to language learning! Think


Now you reached my point.

I want to be an English teacher. I need to know all theories and different perspectives regarding this.


I am the way, and the truth and the life, no one comes to the Father except through Me. - John 14:6
tunaafi
Posted: Thursday, April 20, 2017 8:12:41 PM

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Determiners limit a moun phrase in some way.such as (in)definiteness (a, the), possession (my, his), quantity (many, few), number (one, three), demonstrativeness (this, those).

There are three main classes:

Central determiners include the articles, demonstratives, possessives and some quantifiers. They can co-occur with adjectives (my good friend) but not with each other: (*the my friend)

Post-determiners include numbers and some quantifiers. They are used after central determiners (my two sisters, the many problems).

Pre-determiners include such and what. They mainly indicate quantity They are used before central determiners: (all my friends, what a nice man!, half your income).

Far away is close at hand in images of elsewhere – The Master of Paddington.
Drag0nspeaker
Posted: Thursday, April 20, 2017 9:37:17 PM

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Joined: 9/12/2011
Posts: 25,216
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Location: Livingston, Scotland, United Kingdom
Thanks tunaafi.

So that makes them the same as the things one member's grammar-book called "Determiner Type 1, 2 and 3" then.

This was a year or two ago - I think either A Cooperator or Nima Persian.

We had long discussions about the differences between "the last two cakes" and "the two last cakes" and how they could both be correct (since 'last' is a type 2 and 'two' is a type 3).

You know - It would really be good if you could know the text-books you will have to use when you are teaching.
When you have different systems of nomenclature in different books - and even disagreeing explanations in different books, it is awkward.
You will need to know one extremely well, and all the other at least well enough to work with.

Going back to 'such' - after that explanation by tunaafi, I can say 'yes'.
When used with a plural noun, 'such' comes directly before the noun, so it is a determiner.
When used with a singular noun, 'such' comes directly before an article, so it is a pre-determiner.


Wyrd bið ful aræd - bull!
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