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A thing is a 'noun'. Options
TMe
Posted: Tuesday, April 11, 2017 12:04:34 PM

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Is 'time' a thing and hence a noun? I expect complete justification with reference to various dictionaries.

Deliberate practice of one hour is worth ten hours of normal practice.
Wilmar (USA)
Posted: Tuesday, April 11, 2017 1:08:12 PM

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Wow.
FounDit
Posted: Tuesday, April 11, 2017 1:50:54 PM

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Yeah, I can't decide if I should rush to fulfill that expectation, or just take my time. Wait, is that a noun? I think so. Take...my...time.
Take...my...space? interval?
Take...my...wait gap?
TFD says it's a noun.
American Heritage® Dictionary says it's a noun.
Collins English Dictionary says it's a noun.
Random House Kernerman Webster's College Dictionary says it's a noun.
The American Heritage® Student Science Dictionary doesn't say.
I just can't make up my mind...Think
But it could be. It kinda looks like one.


A great many people will think they are thinking when they are merely rearranging their prejudices. ~ William James ~
thar
Posted: Tuesday, April 11, 2017 2:12:29 PM

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You can use it, lose it, spend it or waste it. Give it to someone, or take it from them. Have too much of it or not enough.
Yup, that's a thing alright!

I don't reference dictionaries, because they don't make the rules. Whistle
They describe language. Language grows naturally. Dictionaries try to keep up.
Drag0nspeaker
Posted: Wednesday, April 12, 2017 6:27:38 AM

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You can expect whatever you like.

You are not likely to get it unless you ask.


Wyrd bið ful aræd - bull!
TheParser
Posted: Wednesday, April 12, 2017 8:02:51 AM
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TMe wrote:
Is 'time' a thing ...?


NOT A TEACHER



Hello, TMe:

Some scientists believe "that time is neither an event nor a thing, and thus is not itself measurable nor can it be traveled."


Google source: Time -- Wikipedia.


P.S. If a teacher were to ask a student to parse the word "time," however, that student would have no choice but to classify it as a "noun," don't you think?



Have a nice day!
Romany
Posted: Wednesday, April 12, 2017 1:39:37 PM
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TMe -

As you can see from the above replies; your post has earned some negative/rather cross responses. Do you know why?

It was this sentence: " I expect complete justification with reference to various dictionaries. "

This is the kind of thing a teacher would say to students. It is an order/instruction.

In English it is rude to give another person orders or instructions. Telling someone how you 'expect' them to behave is not only rude but considered condescending: - hence Drago's response above.

As we have said many times: even when one's grammar and vocabulary is absolutely perfect, there are some ways of saying things that a native speaker would never use. Using the imperative (i.e. giving orders or instruction) towards one's peers is unacceptable.

I'm sure that you aren't rude, but simply didn't know this, so thought a 'heads up' would be of use.
tunaafi
Posted: Wednesday, April 12, 2017 2:17:49 PM

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FounDit wrote:

TFD says it's a noun.
American Heritage® Dictionary says it's a noun.
Collins English Dictionary says it's a noun.
Random House Kernerman Webster's College Dictionary says it's a noun.
The American Heritage® Student Science Dictionary doesn't say.


You and the dictionaries you mentioned almost convinced me, but I decided to check for myself. Most dictionaries said it was a noun, but they also said it was a verb. If dictionaries can't make up their minds, how can we?

I expect a conprehensive, fullyireferenced reply to my question from everyone who has posted so far. Immediately!


Far away is close at hand in images of elsewhere – The Master of Paddington.
Jyrkkä Jätkä
Posted: Wednesday, April 12, 2017 2:20:50 PM

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What a waste of time! Parse that ;-)


In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.
Ashwin Joshi
Posted: Thursday, April 13, 2017 12:47:40 AM

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'Expect' is a gentle word. Isn't it, Romany? I know it is a

transitive verb to demand or anticipate receiving something because of a perceived right to it or because it is due or appropriate;

There other meanings also of the word 'Expect'.

Why should one be judged and degraded by choosing a meaning of a certain word as per one's own choice?

BUT TFD says;


Verb 1. expect - regard something as probable or likely expect - regard something as probable or likely; "The meteorologists are expecting rain for tomorrow" anticipate

guess, reckon, suppose, think, imagine, opine - expect, believe, or suppose; "I imagine she earned a lot of money with her new novel"; "I thought to find her in a bad state"; "he didn't think to find her in the kitchen"; "I guess she is angry at me for standing her up"

await, expect, wait, look presume, foresee, conjecture, surmise, think likely We expect the talks will continue until tomorrow.
2. anticipate, look forward to, predict, envisage, hope for, contemplate, bargain for, look ahead to I wasn't expecting to see you today.
3. require, demand, want, wish, look for, call for, ask for, insist on, count on, rely upon He expects total obedience and blind loyalty from his staff





It's good to be clever but over...is not.

I expect that the members of this forum are extremely nice.



Me Gathering Pebbles at The Seashore.-Aj
TMe
Posted: Thursday, April 13, 2017 2:04:43 AM

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Let's not get distracted from the main topic, please.

Isn't it better to stay away if one doesn't know the response to the query than to spend the energy on some other unnecessary and useless discussion?


Deliberate practice of one hour is worth ten hours of normal practice.
Drag0nspeaker
Posted: Thursday, April 13, 2017 4:10:32 AM

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I know the answer to what you want to know.

If you were to simply ask for the data, you would get some replies I'm sure.
However, this is not an unnecessary or useless discussion.
If you are to learn English, you need to understand how English is used.

Demanding "complete justification with reference to various dictionaries" is not going to get you any responses you want.
If that is all you want, you can look it up in various dictionaries yourself.

*******************
To answer the original question (ignoring the demands).

Yes - time is a noun - sometimes. ("He didn't have the time to eat his lunch.")
Sometimes, it is a verb ("The judges timed each contestant in the race")
and sometimes it is an adjectival ("My brother has terrible time-sense and is always late for appointments").

"Time" is not solid, it is not something you can touch, but it is still a noun.

Quote:
What is an abstract noun?
Abstract nouns, as their name implies, name intangible things, such as concepts, ideas, feelings, characteristics, attributes, etc. — you cannot see or touch these kinds of things.
Here are some examples of abstract nouns:
love
hate
decency
conversation
emotion
aspiration
excitement
lethargy

The Free Dictionary Grammar Book

Wyrd bið ful aræd - bull!
TMe
Posted: Thursday, April 13, 2017 5:29:05 AM

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Thank you, DragO sir!

You have explained the 'time' very accurately and beautifully.

I only hoped for (expected) a great explanation.

Deliberate practice of one hour is worth ten hours of normal practice.
Romany
Posted: Thursday, April 13, 2017 5:37:59 AM
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Ashwin Joshi -

No-one has attempted to 'judge' or 'degrade' anyone on this thread.

HOWEVER: the way the OP was phrased it was degrading. Go back and read all the responses: no-one has accepted the phrase beginning "I expect...." Each person was shocked and insulted by it.Each responded in their own way to help the OP to see that it is NOT acceptable, in English, to give other people orders, or to act as though one is superior to another, or to issue instructions as to how they must respond.

My way of responding was to explain why people were responding with anger, or sarcasm or flippancy. Your response - that trying to help explain why one never speaks to another person this way in English was merely me trying to be 'too clever' - was also rather an insult.

Anyone, anywhere, who learns another language perforce must learn about the culture of those who use that language. It's a shame that this is considered "unnecessary" and "useless" by the particular learner who began this thread. For without it, one will never become either a fluent or a 'natural' speaker...in ANY language.

It was a simple question to which everyone who responded knew the answer perfectly well - but they were addressing the fact that no-one would get an answer or response to any question if they give other people orders. It is, in fact, a far more valuable lesson - and one which native speakers consider of greater importance in speaking English - than classifying a simple noun which, as Drago pointed out, one could find out for oneself very easily.

THAT is where actual native speakers prove far more valuable than text books - and THAT is why most learners of any language like to hear from native speakers...because they tell us things text-books don't. But if native speakers feel they've been insulted - as people did here - then they won't help. That's just human nature: nothing to do with grammar or vocabulary.


Ashwin Joshi
Posted: Thursday, April 13, 2017 10:19:52 AM

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Romany Madam,

TFD nowhere states that ‘to expect’ means ‘to order’.

As the British fleet closed with the opposing combined fleets of France and Spain, Lord Nelson signalled all the necessary battle instructions to his ships. However, aware of the momentousness of events to come, Lord Nelson felt that something extra was required. He instructed his signal officer, Lieutenant John Pasco, to signal to the fleet, as quickly as possible, the message "England confides [i.e. is confident] that every man will do his duty." Pasco suggested to Nelson that expects be substituted forconfides, since the former word was in the signal book, whereas confides would have to be spelt out letter-by-letter. Nelson agreed to the change (even though 'expects' gave a less trusting impression than 'confides'):
“ His Lordship came to me on the poop, and after ordering certain signals to be made, about a quarter to noon, he said, 'Mr. Pasco, I wish to say to the fleet, ENGLAND CONFIDES THAT EVERY MAN WILL DO HIS DUTY' and he added 'You must be quick, for I have one more to make which is for close action.' I replied, 'If your Lordship will permit me to substitute the confides for expects the signal will soon be completed, because the word expects is in the vocabulary, and confides must be spelt,' His Lordship replied, in haste, and with seeming satisfaction, 'That will do, Pasco, make it directly.'

(It was changed since the word 'confides' is akin to 'expects', had this been an 'order' Lord Nelson would never have allowed the change under the grave circumstances of immediate battle of Trafalgar).)

"England expects that every man will do his duty" was a signal sent by Admiral Horatio Nelson, 1st Viscount Nelson from his flagship HMS Victory as the Battle of Trafalgar was about to commence on October 21, 1805. Trafalgar was the decisive naval engagement of the Napoleonic Wars. It gave the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland control of the seas, removing all possibility of a French invasion and conquest of Britain. Although there was much confusion surrounding the wording of the signal in the aftermath of the battle, the significance of the victory and Nelson's death during the battle led to the phrase becoming embedded in the English psyche, and it has been regularly quoted, paraphrased and referenced up to the modern day.

Nelson's famous signal has been imitated in other navies of the world. Napoleon ordered the French translation, "La France compte que chacun fera son devoir", to be displayed on French vessels. At the opening of the Battle of Plattsburgh in September of 1814, Commodore Thomas MacDonough of the U.S. Navy flew the signal "Impressed seamen call on every man to do his duty", referring to the fact that impressment of U.S. mariners had been a popular cause of the War of 1812. Before theBattle of Tsushima, Japanese Admiral Togo (who had studied naval science in England from 1871 to 1878) signalled to his fleet: "The fate of the Empire depends upon today's battle: let every man do his utmost".
The signal was imitated in other navies of the world but no navy used the word ‘expects’.
The non-native English speakers are not concerned about the words twisted in the class rooms. We believe in correct English.



Me Gathering Pebbles at The Seashore.-Aj
Drag0nspeaker
Posted: Thursday, April 13, 2017 10:48:59 AM

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That IS correct English.

Look at the reactions from the native (British and American) speakers.
Wilmar was speechless!

England expected that - it was the DUTY of the sailors.
It was what they HAD to do. It was not a "nice choice".

A teacher saying "I expect to see the homework from each of you in the morning" means "That is what will happen or else."

ex·pect v.tr.
2. To consider reasonable or due: We expect an apology.
3. To consider obligatory; require: The school expects its pupils to be on time.

American Heritage.

expect vb (tr; may take a clause as object or an infinitive)
3. to decide that (something) is requisite or necessary; require: the boss expects us to work late today.

Collins English Dictionary

expect v.t.
2. to consider as reasonable, due, or justified: We expect obedience.

Random House Kernerman Webster's College Dictionary

"I expect complete justification with reference to various dictionaries. I expect obedience. You will obey" was what was communicated in correct English.


Wyrd bið ful aræd - bull!
Ashwin Joshi
Posted: Thursday, April 13, 2017 11:36:21 AM

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DragO Sir, answer a simple question. Does the word 'expect' in spite of all meaning means 'hope for' too or not? That will end the discussion.

All the forum members are requested to participate.


Me Gathering Pebbles at The Seashore.-Aj
TMe
Posted: Thursday, April 13, 2017 11:46:22 AM

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I request TFD to intervene since native and non-native speakers differ.

Deliberate practice of one hour is worth ten hours of normal practice.
thar
Posted: Thursday, April 13, 2017 1:45:27 PM

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As a person who only skimmed the OP, can I comment on this one.
It is both, but in context.

If you say to a friend, "I expect to get full marks in this exam", they will think you are arrogant. Possibly right, but still arrogant to say it!

If you say to your careers counsellor, "I expect to get full marks in this exam", they will assume you are accurately predicting your grade, and giving them useful information.

If you say to the teacher who is marking the test, "I expect to get full marks in this exam", they will take it as a threat, call the police and request protection. (OK, only if your father is a thug. Otherwise they will just have you expelled)

It is all about context.


A prediction in one context is a demand in another.
Romany
Posted: Thursday, April 13, 2017 2:45:04 PM
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TMe - it's nothing to do with the moderators if people hold different views! And nobody needs to 'intervene'.Dancing

This is a forum - and the whole idea of a forum is for people to discuss things. That's the entire purpose of forums.

There are lots of different people from different backgrounds on TFD - there is no way that everyone is going to think in the same way as everybody else. On Forums people 'have permission' to talk about things: even crazy ideas, sometimes. Not holding the same view as someone else is nothing to require intervention about: people talk things out. And often, when we see things from another point of view, we change our minds.

However one big, over-arching Rule on every thread is to be polite: in our culture this includes: not making personal comments about people (we discuss the IDEA, not the PERSON); not to hurt other people's feelings; not to
contradict; and not to give other people orders.

As Drago pointed out: all the native-speakers here considered the use of the imperative ill-mannered. This, in itself, should at least be a talking point. Because, in spite of anything you might find in a text-book, here is something else to learn about English.

I have tried to explain WHY . If there is something about this explanation you don't understand then ask: if we keep communicating we begin to see the other person's ideas.Drool

tunaafi
Posted: Thursday, April 13, 2017 3:25:30 PM

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Ashwin Joshi wrote:
Does the word 'expect' in spite of all meaning means 'hope for' too or not?


No.

Quote:
All the forum members are requested to participate.


Even that has a sens of being an order,oalbeit one phrased politely. The only people who use 'request' in the passive in this way are people in a position to expect (!) that people will do as they have been requested.



Far away is close at hand in images of elsewhere – The Master of Paddington.
tunaafi
Posted: Thursday, April 13, 2017 3:35:01 PM

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Ashwin Joshi wrote:
TFD nowhere states that ‘to expect’ means ‘to order’.


It gives this defintion: To consider obligatory; require: The school expects its pupils to be on time.

That is the way most native speakers would automatically understand the word in Nelson's signal. What he may have intended to signal is irrelevant.

Far away is close at hand in images of elsewhere – The Master of Paddington.
Ashwin Joshi
Posted: Monday, April 17, 2017 12:40:37 PM

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In another thread under topic,
'How can I speak English perfectly? '

Romany wrote;

Fortunately, no-one speaks 'perfect' English. We may write it - for academic purposes - but we don't speak it.
In fact, speaking in a completely grammatically correct way forever marks one out as a 'foreigner'.


So I would advise any student to forget about 'perfect' English: it's a chimera. Concentrate instead on 'effective communication', i.e. making sure you can say what it is you want to say, in a way that will be easily understood and responded to by native speakers of that language.

If one isn't a good & 'perfect' communicator in one's own language, learning another one won't make one a good & 'perfect' communicator in another language.

The other point is deciding WHICH English you want to learn. 'Standard English' is British-based as to 'rules' but also comprises bits of American, Indian, European, Australian words/phrases/slang. Indian, Australian, American, Carribean etc. Englishes all differ from each other. So once you have made your choice stick to that and don't just grab any 'English' word and use it: some are unknown or unfamiliar to Standard English. And the same applies to grammar. (As is amply illustrated in this very thread where the word 'practice'is 'incorrect' in Standard English but perfectly 'correct' in American English.)

All truth.There you are. I agree, madam Romany



That's where I was misunderstood; the way I committed a mistake when as per books and rules of grammar, instead of writing 'request' I wrote 'expect'.


Me Gathering Pebbles at The Seashore.-Aj
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