The Free Dictionary  
mailing list For webmasters
Welcome Guest Forum Search | Active Topics | Members

Who taught Americans English? Options
thar
Posted: Monday, November 26, 2012 5:45:32 PM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 7/8/2010
Posts: 14,911
Neurons: 59,078
Iceland must be one of the onlyh countries in the world genuinely settled with no indigenous people. In fact before the Norse arrived there were a few British/Irish monks who had come wanting to get away from it all... until they decided not even God wanted them to suffer that much... so they went home again. That is why I am so interested in the complex layered archaeology and language of other countries, because mine is so monocultural (in fact, that is true for the geology as well.... is that a coincidence, or a deep connection...Think )

I am glad I am free of the moral dilemma of how to deal with the mess of someone else's history. The fact is indigenous people were treated horrifically by settlers. But the Europeans are there now - they can't apologise and leave. Land grants, compensation, giving people the right to get rich quick with casinos that (IMO) do far more harm than good - all moral and social dilemmas with not clear answer. I wish good luck to all those having to deal with them, frankly. And not just the US, Australia, NZ etc. JJ mentions Sami - apparently they were actively persecuted as a subhuman pest. In Norway laws were drawn up that you had to speak Norwegian to own land, robbing the Sami of rights to their own land. Shaman and holy articles were banned and confiscated. Now there is more respect for the culture and language, but the basic setup of how life is lived, property owned and the land exploited is still fixed on the modern European model, and indigenous cultures do not fit neatly into that!
Daveski
Posted: Monday, November 26, 2012 6:11:03 PM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 10/17/2012
Posts: 1,711
Neurons: 5,066
Location: Caer Sidi
salesh2010 wrote:
It is also rumored that the first settlers in US other than the native primitives, were also the exiles from England. But I don't know if it is authentic...


You are thinking of the Spice Girls.

docendo discimus
LostinSC
Posted: Monday, November 26, 2012 7:48:38 PM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 9/30/2012
Posts: 400
Neurons: 1,318
Oopsky, Daveski..

Twasn't the Spice Girls..

Veni Vidi Vici should have been the motto of the "Beatles" in 1964.

I remember it well.

Losty

The older I grow the more I distrust the familiar doctrine that age brings wisdom. H. L. Mencken
Daveski
Posted: Monday, November 26, 2012 8:00:27 PM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 10/17/2012
Posts: 1,711
Neurons: 5,066
Location: Caer Sidi
LostinSC wrote:
Oopsky, Daveski..

Twasn't the Spice Girls..

Veni Vidi Vici should have been the motto of the "Beatles" in 1964.

I remember it well.

Losty


Are the Spice Girls still in the US. Because if they are, you can keep them.

P.S. What were the "Beatles"?

docendo discimus
LostinSC
Posted: Tuesday, November 27, 2012 7:37:52 AM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 9/30/2012
Posts: 400
Neurons: 1,318
thebeatlesrockband.com

Your're Kiding, right? Who are the Beatles!!

Haven't seen the Spice Girls for many a moon.

Just as well, I might add.



The older I grow the more I distrust the familiar doctrine that age brings wisdom. H. L. Mencken
Jyrkkä Jätkä
Posted: Tuesday, November 27, 2012 10:06:22 AM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 9/21/2009
Posts: 37,608
Neurons: 238,686
Location: Helsinki, Southern Finland Province, Finland
Beatles came from a place little bit west from the Hatfield.
Spice Girls? I need no other girls in my kitchen, we hardly fit in there with my wife.



In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.
Drag0nspeaker
Posted: Tuesday, November 27, 2012 10:30:17 AM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 9/12/2011
Posts: 25,216
Neurons: 131,240
Location: Livingston, Scotland, United Kingdom

Just for fun.

Gone to America.


Wyrd bið ful aræd - bull!
Jyrkkä Jätkä
Posted: Tuesday, November 27, 2012 10:50:38 AM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 9/21/2009
Posts: 37,608
Neurons: 238,686
Location: Helsinki, Southern Finland Province, Finland
More fun:
Hiski Salomaa - Lännen lokari

(He was a good friend to Woody Guthrie)


In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.
Drag0nspeaker
Posted: Tuesday, November 27, 2012 12:10:21 PM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 9/12/2011
Posts: 25,216
Neurons: 131,240
Location: Livingston, Scotland, United Kingdom

Ha! So that's where all the forests went!

Interesting music - very similar to many workers' songs from England. Is that in Finnish or Fingelska?


Wyrd bið ful aræd - bull!
Jyrkkä Jätkä
Posted: Tuesday, November 27, 2012 12:38:31 PM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 9/21/2009
Posts: 37,608
Neurons: 238,686
Location: Helsinki, Southern Finland Province, Finland
That was pure Finnish with a slightly Savonian accent, not Fingelska or Finglish, and not Yuuper, definitely ;-)


In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.
Daveski
Posted: Tuesday, November 27, 2012 3:27:06 PM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 10/17/2012
Posts: 1,711
Neurons: 5,066
Location: Caer Sidi
LostinSC wrote:
thebeatlesrockband.com

Your're Kiding, right? Who are the Beatles!!


Not my generation. The earliest Scouse bands that I can remember are Echo & the Bunnymen, The Teardrop Explodes & Space.

LostinSC wrote:
Haven't seen the Spice Girls for many a moon.

Just as well, I might add.



I'm kinda hoping that they have all been abducted by extraterrestrials.

docendo discimus
Romany
Posted: Tuesday, November 27, 2012 5:23:43 PM
Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 6/14/2009
Posts: 11,796
Neurons: 35,667
Location: Brighton, England, United Kingdom
@ Thar ('cos the thread has moved on now, but I've only just been able to get back to it).

No, I personally don't equate cities with "civillisation" at all. However, archaeologists and historians tend to define the 'Birth of civillisation' as the time when separate tribes of hunter/gatherers ceased to rely solely upon their own skills for subsistence. While trade has been proved to exist (and still exists in many societies which are still basically hunter/gatherer) for a long time before towns and cities, the point about towns and cities was that it freed up whole sectors of the population to be able to engage in pursuits other than those strictly concerned with subsistence.

The point often made to distinguish some societies as 'primitive' (e.g. the Australian aboriginal, the first inhabitants of America) is that they remained/remain in a state which does not lead to the progress through the steps other societies have made in technology, the Arts, culture, education, codified law etc. which the advent of towns and cities allowed to take place.

Even in Australia it has now been discovered that not all tribes were nomadic and that settlements and townships did actually exist. Yet even today there are those who still still excuse colonisation on the grounds that without the mighty whities the millions of people who were subjugated wouldn't have the benefits of 'civillisation' I expect you've read Diamonds "Guns, Germs and Steel"? Well that's the kind of thing I was getting at.

Yet one has only to look back to Britain after the Romans withdrew to see how much THEY appreciated the conquerors cities! But hey, we muddled through.
Daveski
Posted: Tuesday, November 27, 2012 5:34:44 PM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 10/17/2012
Posts: 1,711
Neurons: 5,066
Location: Caer Sidi
Romany wrote:

Yet one has only to look back to Britain after the Romans withdrew to see how much THEY appreciated the conquerors cities! But hey, we muddled through.


Interestingly, the invading Angles, Jutes & Saxons didn't usually settle in native Roman cities or towns. The term 'civilisation' is a reference to living in cities, but we are only 200,000 years old as a species & our bodies still think that they roaming the African savannahs. IMO, civilisation is a veneer. There again, I've read way too much Dostoyevsky.

docendo discimus
gradyone
Posted: Tuesday, November 27, 2012 8:54:59 PM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 4/12/2010
Posts: 2,423
Neurons: 12,277
Location: Virgil, Illinois, United States

I don't believe you need to fear reading "way too much Dostoyevsky." Henry James, yes -- Dostoyevsky, no! ... Think


Viva Geronimo
Daveski
Posted: Tuesday, November 27, 2012 9:06:47 PM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 10/17/2012
Posts: 1,711
Neurons: 5,066
Location: Caer Sidi
gradyone wrote:

I don't believe you need to fear reading "way too much Dostoyevsky." Henry James, yes -- Dostoyevsky, no! ... Think


Too late, I've overdosed on 19th century Russian literature!

docendo discimus
TeresaPelka
Posted: Sunday, March 03, 2013 4:09:18 AM

Rank: Newbie

Joined: 3/3/2013
Posts: 1
Neurons: 3
Location: Ireland
Angel American English as spoken now might come only from America

Feel welcome to see my website, http://travelingrammar.com/2013/03/03/where-from Angel

I'd be grateful for comments and opinions,

http://travelingrammar.com
dusty
Posted: Sunday, March 03, 2013 6:19:43 AM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 4/13/2012
Posts: 1,765
Neurons: 5,733
I'd just like to say, as an appreciator of the truth in honest science and a respector of Language I sincerely appreciate the terms used by Epi such as "semantic drift" because other misused terms such as evolution do a great disservice to both learners of Language and the history of the origin of life.

That when I declare I am a respector of Language I mean it, my disrespect is always in regards to those who I feel do not respect Truth and Justice, whom I do not recognize as respectful of Language no matter how skilled or learned they may be as a linguist.

I cannot tell you "who" taught the inhabitants on the American Continents "English" but it may help you in your quest for Truth in Languages to know the History of the American Continents, which had "cities" that supported populations that rivaled if not fact were the "biggest" cities in the world during there time in regards to the most people inhabiting a small area, Hopi tribes had "cities" with populations estimated to be one million, which ironically are near the same numbers as and IC (ironic coincident) the same numbers in the same general vicinity as modern-day Phoenix.

They were without a doubt just as civilized, and if anything more civilized then the origins of any "white" civilizations.

They were also governed by Matriarchs, where Women held political power, except Native Americans wouldn't likely understand the meaning of the term "politics" as it is known these days because governing was a duty far too sacred for the lies, games, and gross injustices carried out by modern-day politicians.

Although the great architectural feats known as the pyramids were mostly only constructed in and around Central America, and the differed in design from the more popular and older in age pyramids in Egypt, the do give clear evidence of the origin of teachers of Native Language, which was the beginning of the important divisions of Heaven, even though the Quarters and original commandments were completely disregarded by the male half of human animal, it was first taught how to divide the sphere into hemispheres that served as a basis for the foundation to understanding everything about this world. North and South are the division that must be perpendicular to access of Heaven. The second lesson was division of East and West, which depends on a true Meridian to understand the what Is real in Our World. The foolish attempt by men, not women to not heed that lesson is largely responsibly for much of the confusion today.

And while the history of the Penitentiary is semi-correctly described by Thar, is was left out how and why those contracts were nullified by not disclosing the truth in the nature of the size of the LETTERS in birth certified and therefore recognized life in the lives of anybody and everybody.

While it the truth is debts owed could certainly be calculated from day one, those who claim debts owed would not likely be spewing the same vile language if we were to do so.

But either way, sorting this whole mess that the male half in their failings and failed to fully disclose, sure appears as if it's going to be fairly dirty and possibly bloody to sort out.

Glad it's not my mess sentenced to clean up or get out, although the subtle inferred reference was both recognized and not like the momentary darkness of light with every blink of the eyes

To be concerned of the fate of the world is not bad, but bearing false witness is to not be
leonAzul
Posted: Sunday, March 03, 2013 7:40:20 AM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 8/11/2011
Posts: 7,859
Neurons: 24,611
Location: Miami, Florida, United States
dusty wrote:
I'd just like to say, as an appreciator of the truth in honest science and a respector of Language I sincerely appreciate the terms used by Epi such as "semantic drift" because other misused terms such as evolution do a great disservice to both learners of Language and the history of the origin of life.
<snippage>

tl;dr

“Make love when you can. It's good for you.”


― Kurt Vonnegut, Mother Night


"Make it go away, Mrs Whatsit," he whispered. "Make it go away. It's evil."
amorvincitomnia
Posted: Sunday, March 03, 2013 8:56:54 AM
Rank: Newbie

Joined: 3/2/2013
Posts: 38
Neurons: 107
Location: United States, GA
i should say that there are enough differences in spelling and vocabulary
to warrant american to be its own language

it is also worth pointing out that many dictionaries will specify that they use american english
which would warrant a reasonable assumption that there is a very significant difference between them

The word impossible is a figment of your imagination. When someone says its impossible, they mean "you'd be the first"
Klaas V
Posted: Sunday, March 03, 2013 9:07:56 AM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 7/12/2010
Posts: 1,341
Neurons: 4,802
Three Jutins all in (partly or totally) English speaking country:
US: Timberlake
UK: Hayward
CA: Bieber



With maybe the exception of the unasked there just isn't such thing available as a dumb question - Z4us
kool-wind
Posted: Sunday, March 03, 2013 9:31:35 AM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 10/13/2012
Posts: 2,625
Neurons: 10,086
Location: Fontenay-le-Comte, Pays de la Loire, France
amorvincitomnia wrote:
i should say that there are enough differences in spelling and vocabulary
to warrant american to be its own language

it is also worth pointing out that many dictionaries will specify that they use american english
which would warrant a reasonable assumption that there is a very significant difference between them


There aren't enough differences to allow it to be called another dialect, let alone another language.

However, there are enough similarities to make the use of capital letters at the beginning of sentences, for adjectives such as American and English, and for the word 'I', obligatory in both versions of the English Language. The sentences also require a full stop at the end of them.


It is better to travel well than to arrive. Buddha
excaelis
Posted: Sunday, March 03, 2013 10:11:24 AM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 6/30/2010
Posts: 10,981
Neurons: 32,652
Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
I'd say AE qualifies as a dialect, or at least a variant. And then there are dialects/variants within AE too.

Sanity is not statistical
kool-wind
Posted: Sunday, March 03, 2013 12:23:02 PM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 10/13/2012
Posts: 2,625
Neurons: 10,086
Location: Fontenay-le-Comte, Pays de la Loire, France
It's obviously a question of one's definition of 'dialect'. You may be right excaelis, but I would rather say 'variant'.

There are real dialects within AE and BE that I would probably have trouble understanding but the standard versions of English as taught in schools don't qualify as dialects in my mind.


It is better to travel well than to arrive. Buddha
leonAzul
Posted: Tuesday, March 05, 2013 6:50:19 AM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 8/11/2011
Posts: 7,859
Neurons: 24,611
Location: Miami, Florida, United States
excaelis wrote:
I'd say AE qualifies as a dialect, or at least a variant. And then there are dialects/variants within AE too.


For me, it would be dialect of the conjugations or other grammatical patterns were different across the board. There are different spelling conventions and regional vowel shifts in pronunciation, but by and large these are just variations on the same language.

The differences are not that grave, as we can see in these forums where people from different parts of the anglophone world seem to understand each other—at least as well as people understand each other anywhere.

By comparison, the differences among Cajun, Quebecoise, and Catalan are rather severe.
Whistle


"Make it go away, Mrs Whatsit," he whispered. "Make it go away. It's evil."
Klaas V
Posted: Tuesday, March 05, 2013 11:53:12 AM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 7/12/2010
Posts: 1,341
Neurons: 4,802
leonAzul wrote:
excaelis wrote:
I'd say AE qualifies as a dialect, or at least a variant. And then there are dialects/variants within AE too.


By comparison, the differences among Cajun, Quebecoise, and Catalan are rather severe.
Whistle

Now you're trying to compare apples and oranges. Catalan is a kind of Spanish while the other two might have enough (?) similarity to French to be understood by people who speak French as a native or learned at school, on vacation or wherever. If you wrote Walloon the statement would make a wee bit more sense in my book. I don't know enough French to tell if they are really French dialects, different languages or just variations.

Another example: Afrikaans and Dutch are considered really different languages, though mutually understood with enough ease. Some words are completely different though. Same for Flemish. They have so many dialects spoken strictly barely comprehensible if you're from another region. It's even worse in Italy. When our neighbors speak their home language even my wife doesn't understand a word, imagine me.

With maybe the exception of the unasked there just isn't such thing available as a dumb question - Z4us
RuthP
Posted: Tuesday, March 05, 2013 12:25:15 PM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 6/2/2009
Posts: 4,928
Neurons: 33,278
Location: Drain, Oregon, United States
Jyrkkä Jätkä wrote:
Most of us Europeans are settlers in our "own" countries, we are not the indigenous people.
The Samis lived here in nowadays Finland before us Finns, nobody knows who were the people who lived here before the Samis some 4000 to 8000 years ago. Before the last Ice Age the Fenno-Scandian peninsula was populated by Neanderthals, most probably.

Italians are mostly descendants of the Germanic tribes who settled there between 500 and 1000 AD. They just adopted the language from the Romans and the name from a tribe which existed before the Romans. The same happened in Spain. In France the Germanic immigrants adopted the language but gave their name to the country.

Europe was a melting pot of people and languages long before discovery of America.

Think when you come right down to it, one rather supposes Africa to be the only continent with a truly indigenous population.Silenced Whistle
leonAzul
Posted: Tuesday, March 05, 2013 1:02:07 PM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 8/11/2011
Posts: 7,859
Neurons: 24,611
Location: Miami, Florida, United States
ClubFavolosa wrote:
leonAzul wrote:
excaelis wrote:
I'd say AE qualifies as a dialect, or at least a variant. And then there are dialects/variants within AE too.


By comparison, the differences among Cajun, Quebecoise, and Catalan are rather severe.
Whistle

Catalan is a kind of Spanish while the other two might have enough (?) similarity to French to be understood by people who speak French as a native or learned at school, on vacation or wherever.

Catalan is much closer to Provençal than Castilian, event though its current geographical range is mostly within the political boundaries of Spain.

ClubFavolosa wrote:

Another example: Afrikaans and Dutch are considered really different languages, though mutually understood with enough ease. Some words are completely different though. Same for Flemish. They have so many dialects spoken strictly barely comprehensible if you're from another region. It's even worse in Italy. When our neighbors speak their home language even my wife doesn't understand a word, imagine me.

That is probably a better example.


"Make it go away, Mrs Whatsit," he whispered. "Make it go away. It's evil."
TL Hobs
Posted: Tuesday, March 05, 2013 8:34:48 PM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 4/16/2009
Posts: 1,372
Neurons: 5,433
Location: Kenai, Alaska, United States

English is an ancient form of American.

Personally, I speak Arkansaw.



"When you don't know where you are going, you have to stick together just in case someone gets there." - Ken Kesey
excaelis
Posted: Tuesday, March 05, 2013 8:39:27 PM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 6/30/2010
Posts: 10,981
Neurons: 32,652
Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
TL Hobs wrote:

English is an ancient form of American.

Personally, I speak Arkansaw.





Well, I for one am glad we've finally cleared that up ! Thanks, TL, you're a Godsend. Angel

Sanity is not statistical
Romany
Posted: Wednesday, March 06, 2013 7:11:14 AM
Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 6/14/2009
Posts: 11,796
Neurons: 35,667
Location: Brighton, England, United Kingdom
Dammit, TL. I wish you'd explained that to us all years ago. Would have saved a whole heap of time!
almo 1
Posted: Sunday, April 16, 2017 7:14:05 AM
Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 10/16/2016
Posts: 385
Neurons: 1,655
Location: Fussa, Tokyo, Japan
Daveski wrote:
LostinSC wrote:
thebeatlesrockband.com

Your're Kiding, right? Who are the Beatles!!


Not my generation. The earliest Scouse bands that I can remember are Echo & the Bunnymen, The Teardrop Explodes & Space.

LostinSC wrote:
Haven't seen the Spice Girls for many a moon.

Just as well, I might add.



I'm kinda hoping that they have all been abducted by extraterrestrials.







Interesting.






Ashwin Joshi
Posted: Sunday, April 16, 2017 12:38:25 PM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 8/3/2016
Posts: 969
Neurons: 61,783
Location: Jandiāla Guru, Punjab, India
American English, Eh! It’s a mixture of many languages, not settled yet as the perfect language. That’s why English teachers in the US are not fit for jobs. They are leaving the jobs as English teachers. I rue the behavior of youth in American schools, the colleges and universities.

Me Gathering Pebbles at The Seashore.-Aj
Users browsing this topic
Guest


Forum Jump
You cannot post new topics in this forum.
You cannot reply to topics in this forum.
You cannot delete your posts in this forum.
You cannot edit your posts in this forum.
You cannot create polls in this forum.
You cannot vote in polls in this forum.

Main Forum RSS : RSS
Forum Terms and Guidelines. Copyright © 2008-2017 Farlex, Inc. All rights reserved.