The Free Dictionary  
mailing list For webmasters
Welcome Guest Forum Search | Active Topics | Members

Thanksgiving and Slaughtering. Options
TMe
Posted: Monday, April 03, 2017 1:09:21 PM

Rank: Member

Joined: 1/12/2017
Posts: 192
Neurons: 1,324
I really feel sad and remorseful about the slaughtering of unpardoned turkeys after "The Thanksgiving day".

Is murdering pardonable under any natural or the man-made law?


Pardoning one turkey, slaughtering millions; Isn't it hypocrisy?

Let your conscientiousness express, what do you feel, honestly.Shame on you Shame on you Shame on you

Deliberate practice of one hour is worth ten hours of normal practice.
whatson
Posted: Monday, April 03, 2017 2:17:41 PM
Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 2/19/2016
Posts: 152
Neurons: 1,656
Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Honestly, the only ethical living entities are plants -
they live on minerals. No doubt, with deliberate practice
(perhaps just one hour a day) all of us could adopt this lifestyle.
And to wean the hypocrites from their current eating habits, it would
help to declare turkeys and all other meatlings (and plants!) - holy.
NKM
Posted: Monday, April 03, 2017 3:45:24 PM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 2/14/2015
Posts: 3,317
Neurons: 127,620
Location: Corinth, New York, United States
There are carnivorous plants, too.

"Pardoning" a turkey is a purely symbolic concept, and of no consequence to anyone except the immediate beneficiary of said gratuitous "act of mercy."

In a perfect world, it has been said, "The lion will lie down with the lamb." Fine rhetoric, but in practice it would assure the extinction of the lions.

Medea
Posted: Monday, April 03, 2017 6:12:06 PM
Rank: Newbie

Joined: 3/14/2014
Posts: 40
Neurons: 19,598
I agree NKM and there are poissonous plants too.
whatson
Posted: Monday, April 03, 2017 7:14:24 PM
Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 2/19/2016
Posts: 152
Neurons: 1,656
Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Oops, I forgot about the small percentage of carnivorous plants.
But they at least operate according to natural law.
The poissonous ones, however, are completely fishy, n'est-ce pas?
hedy mmm
Posted: Monday, April 03, 2017 9:35:27 PM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 7/29/2014
Posts: 806
Neurons: 345,518
Location: Borough of Bronx, New York, United States
TMe wrote:
I feel very sad and remorseful about the slaughtering of unpardoned turkeys after "The Thanksgiving Day"
Is murdering pardonable under any natural or the man-made law?



The animals are not 'murdered', they are 'killed'...so, first we need to know the difference between the two...The Scripture delineates a distinction between killing and murdering. “You shall not kill” is actually not a command found in the Ten Commandments. The command from scripture in the original language actually says “You shall not murder” (Exodus 20:13). The Hebrew word for “murder” literally means “the intentional, premeditated killing of another person with malice.” Interestingly, most of us are familiar with this definition of murder, because it is reflected in the Penal Codes of our country. In California, for example, the Penal Code provides this definition of murder: 187. (a) Murder is the unlawful killing of a human being, or a fetus, with malice aforethought.

Malice is a form of evil intent that separates “murder” from “killing”. Even today there are acceptable forms of killing that lack this kind of evil intent, and these forms of killing exist as exceptions in the murder laws of the United States. In California, for example, a homicide is justified (according to Penal Code sections 187, 196 and 197) if one of the following conditions is met:

A person kills someone accidentally
A person is trying to defend him or herself and prevent his or her own murder (self-defense)
A person is trying to prevent someone from entering his or her house to commit some violent felony
A person is trying to prevent the murder of someone else (protecting an innocent)


In all these situations, killing is actually legal and justifiable, and exceptions of this nature exist in the Penal Codes of every state in America. Even those who don’t accept the existence of God or the authority of the Bible recognize the necessity for laws like these; laws that allow for deadly force to be used to accomplish some greater good.

The animals, which do not posses a soul, were given to us for food and clothing. Genesis 9:2-4

My questions to you TMe are:
Do you wear leather shoes? I'm sure you do, where do you think the leather comes from?
Do you eat fish? Do you think they commit suicide?


I am a deer hunter, but not for sport...we eat the meat...that's how God designed it....and I'm a good cook!
hedy



"God graced us with today....don't waste it." hedy
tunaafi
Posted: Monday, April 03, 2017 9:45:33 PM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 6/3/2014
Posts: 3,880
Neurons: 50,934
Location: Karlín, Praha, Czech Republic
hedy mmm wrote:
“You shall not kill” is actually not a command found in the Ten Commandments. The command from scripture in the original language actually says “You shall not murder” (Exodus 20:13). The Hebrew word for “murder” literally means “the intentional, premeditated killing of another person with malice.”

So, at which university did you study the 'original language', hedy?



Far away is close at hand in images of elsewhere – The Master of Paddington.
You know who I am
Posted: Monday, April 03, 2017 10:13:00 PM

Rank: Member

Joined: 1/13/2017
Posts: 494
Neurons: 4,181
Location: Olinda, Pernambuco, Brazil
TMe wrote:
I really feel sad and remorseful about the slaughtering of unpardoned turkeys after "The Thanksgiving day".

Is murdering pardonable under any natural or the man-made law?


Pardoning one turkey, slaughtering millions; Isn't it hypocrisy?

Let your conscientiousness express, what do you feel, honestly.Shame on you Shame on you Shame on you


I agree with hedy; however, I also understand your point of view.

We are humans, we eat to live, that's how God designed it.

I do hate people who kill animals for fun, slowly making them suffer, and this can also be considered to be a sin. Most animals we eat are killed instantly, generally with one hit on their head. We, humans, are on the top of the food chain.

Furthermore, all we do, see and wear have something to do with animals; probably the clothes you are wearing now were 1% made from an animal and you have no idea about it. That's true. Even the pills and medicine you take are composed of at least 1% of animal.

So, I agree with both of you, I do hate people who kill for fun and make the poor animals suffer.

Regardless of religion, meat is essential for our body, and all we do, see, eat wear nowadays are at least 1% composed of animals. We can't run away from this truth! Let's pray to God, for there are still people who have no pitty on these poor animals.


I am the way, and the truth and the life, no one comes to the Father except through Me. - John 14:6
hedy mmm
Posted: Monday, April 03, 2017 11:09:38 PM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 7/29/2014
Posts: 806
Neurons: 345,518
Location: Borough of Bronx, New York, United States
Why tunaafi, I didn't think you'd be interested in studying the bible in its original language...I'm glad I've sparked your interest!
..
"First of all."...I have been studying the bible from Genesis to Revelation, in a bible school and a weekly study group and through several texts including Hebrew, Greek and Aramaic translations, for over 45 yrs. Beginning with the 'Torah' (the first five books —Genesis through Deuteronomy) ('Torah' means God's Instruction), The 'Tanakh' consists of twenty-four books, and the traditional Hebrew text is known as the 'Masoretic Text'...the other ten books, before the gospel recordings are comprised of poetry as in Psalms. The synoptic gospel is found in Matthew, Mark, Luke, John & Revelation...they also speak of the Messiah Jesus Christ's ministry on earth (and Jesus was there before the foundations of the world)....

So much more is written but knowing well, tunaafi, that you are not really interested in what I've written, you are just being who you are... I'll let you on a little secret...next time, when I say "First of all", run away because I have prepared research, documentation and data and will destroy you.

So, may I suggest tunaafi, that if you plan to take me on....pack a lunch!

BTW
Thank you You know who I am...I also agree that killing animals for their fur, tusks, etc., or just for fun is disgusting and, in addition, torturing calves for tender veal... I consider murder...You are definetly fair minded!
hedy



"God graced us with today....don't waste it." hedy
almo 1
Posted: Monday, April 03, 2017 11:57:56 PM
Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 10/16/2016
Posts: 382
Neurons: 1,640
Location: Fussa, Tokyo, Japan
I have a PDF version of "Asimov's Guide to the Bible: The Old and New Testaments" written by Isaac Asimov, which is very fun to read. The only bad thing is that the PDF version has a lot of typos.



goodreads.com/book/show/30009.Asimov_s_Guide_to_the_Bible




INTRODUCTION

The most influential, the most published, the most widely read book
in the history of the world is the Bible. No other book has been
so studied and so analyzed and it is a tribute to the complexity of
the Bible and the eagerness of its students that after thousands of years
of study there are still endless books that can be written about it.
I have myself written two short books for young people on the
earlier books of the Bible* biit I have long wanted to take on a job
of more ambitious scope; one that I can most briefly describe as a
consideration of the secular aspects of the Bible.

Most people who read the Bible do so in order to get the benefit
of its ethical and spiritual teachings, but the Bible has a secular side,
too. It is a history book covering the first four thousand years of
human civilization.

The Bible is not a history book in modem sense, of course, since
its writers lacked the benefit of modem archaeological techniques,
did not have our concept of dating and documentation, and had different
standards of what was and was not significant in history. Furthermore,
Biblical interest was centered primarily on developments that
impinged upon those dwelling in Canaan, a small section of Asia
bordering on the Mediterranean Sea. This area makes only a small
mark on the history of early civilization (from the secular viewpoint)
and modem histories, in contrast to the Bible, give it comparatively
little space.
Nevertheless, for most of the last two thousand, years, the Bible
has been virtually the only history book used in Western civilization.
Even today, it remains the most popular, and its view of ancient
history is still more widely and commonly known than is that of any
! other.
So it happens, therefore, that millions of people today know of
Nebuchadnezzar, and have never heard of Pericles, simply because
Nebuchadnezzar is mentioned prominently in the Bible and Pericles
is never mentioned at all.
Millions know of Ahasuerus as a Persian king who married Esther,
even though there is no record of such an event outside the Bible.
Most of those same millions never suspect that he is better known
to modem historians as Xerxes and that the most important event
in his reign was an invasion of Greece that ended in utter defeat.
That invasion is not mentioned in the Bible...

*********

Genesis

The Bible begins at the logical place-the beginning. The very
first verse starts:
Genesis 1:i. In the befanning . . .
The phrase "In the beginning" is a translation of the Hebrew word
bereshith. In the case of several of the books of the Bible, the first
word is taken as the title of the whole (much as Papal bulls are
named for the two Latin words with which they lean.) The Hebrew
nab of the first book is, there, Bereshith.
The Bible was first translated into another language in the course of
the third century B.C. and that other language was Greek. This Greek
version was, according to tradition, based on the work of seventy
learned scholars, and it is therefore known as the Septuagint, from a
Latin word meaning "seventy!'
In the Septuagint, the various books of the Bible were, naturally
enough, given Greek names...

********

By ancient tradition, the first five books of the Bible were written
by Moses, the folk hero who, according to the account given in the
second through fifth books, rescued the Israelites from Egyptian slavery.
Modem scholars are convinced that this theory of authorship is not
tenable and that the early books of the Bible are not the single
work of any man. Rather, they are the combined and carefully edited
version of a number of sources. Despite this, the full name of the
first book of the Bible as commonly given in English translation re
mains "The First Book of Moses, Called Genesis."

The first five books of the Bible give not only the traditional
history of the ancestors of- the Israelite people, but also describe a
legal code as having been given to Moses by God and by Moses
to the Israelites generally. Because of Moses' traditional role in what
was, in actual fact, a set of laws that developed slowly over the centuries,
the whole is termed the "Mosaic law" or, more simply still, "the Law!'

The Hebrew word for the first five books is "Torah,"which is the
Hebrew word for "law."
The Greek word for the first five books is "Pentateuch" ("five
books"). In recent times, it has been recognized that the sixth book of
the Bible is closely connected with the Gist five and is derived horn similar
sources. All six books may be referred to as the "Hexateuch" ("six
books").

**************

God

The Bible centers about God, and God is brought into the talc
at once:
Genesis 1:i. In the beginning God created the heaven and the
earth.

The Hebrew word, translated here as God, is "Elohim" andthat
is a plural form which would ordinarily (if tradition were defied) -be
translated "gods." It is possible that in the very earliest traditions on
which the Bible is based, the creation was- indeed the work of a
plurality of gods. The firmly monotheistic Biblical writes would camfolly
have eliminated such polytheism, but could not perhaps do anything
with the firmly ingrained term "Elohim." It was too familiar
to change...

Hope123
Posted: Tuesday, April 04, 2017 12:24:17 AM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 3/23/2015
Posts: 5,728
Neurons: 34,371
Location: Burlington, Ontario, Canada
It is known that the beef industry contributes to climate change. Animals are often raised in awful inhumane conditions. There is an association between colon cancer and meat eating. Meat is very expensive. There are many logical reasons besides ethics that humans would be better off if we ate less meat.

I took a very interesting Scottish uni course a year or so ago about farming practices of the various kinds of animals. We saw videos of how some farming practices can be improved to stop such things as the poor chickens not being able to move and being crippled so they were not able to stand on their weak legs and so forth. We saw how they treat swine on the way to market and at the abbatoir - sometimes with cruelty. We saw horses and cattle grazing contentedly in pastures as well. The First Nations people used every single bit of the buffalo animal and did not waste any of it.

And of course hunting and killing for fun and to get such substances as ivory are just plain cruel and mercenary. Fox hunts and bull fights where the human has the advantage are just disgusting sport. I have often thought how ridiculous it is to catch a fish and then throw it back.

Why not have meatless meals a couple of times or more a week? Fruits and veggies are very important and there are lots of good recipes for legumes or cheese or eggs or other foods where one can get protein for some meals and cut down on the amount of meat and fish we eat.

Why not buy free range eggs and chickens and turkeys? Often these have been raised organically too. At least you know they were raised humanely.

Edited to add - please remember that religion should be in the Philosophy and religious sub forum. Knowledge and culture is for other purposes such as the original post.

A clever person solves a problem. A wise person avoids it. Albert Einstein
Ashwin Joshi
Posted: Tuesday, April 04, 2017 1:00:42 AM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 8/3/2016
Posts: 957
Neurons: 61,661
Location: Jandiāla Guru, Punjab, India
hedy mmm writes;

"First of all."...I have been studying the bible from Genesis to Revelation, in a bible school and a weekly study group and through several texts including Hebrew, Greek and Aramaic translations, for over 45 yrs.



So much more is written but knowing well, tunaafi, that you are not really interested in what I've written, you are just being who you are... I'll let you on a little secret...next time, when I say "First of all", run away because I have prepared research, documentation and data and will destroy you.

So, may I suggest tunaafi, that if you plan to take me on....pack a lunch!"


I am sure it doesn't behove a Biblical person.


Hypocrisy?

Me Gathering Pebbles at The Seashore.-Aj
Hope123
Posted: Tuesday, April 04, 2017 1:28:26 AM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 3/23/2015
Posts: 5,728
Neurons: 34,371
Location: Burlington, Ontario, Canada
TME, they are doing experiments to show that animals are more intelligent and sentient than humans previously thought. We all know about cats and dogs but hawks have been shown to be able to do facial recognition, elephants can solve complex problems, and even an octopus can figure out how to screw the lid off a jar in a few seconds.

They mourn the loss of their family and friends, they suffer, and they have the same needs and desires as humans and comprehend some of the same things. Maybe they are not just dumb animals because they can't speak to us. Maybe humans are dumb because we don't know what they are telling us!

“The desires for food and water, shelter and companionship, freedom of movement and avoidance of pain" are all things we have in common with other animals. Wiki And that is why they should be treated humanely.

Even plants cooperate with each other and when wounded send out all kinds of chemical signals for help. A forest floor is one big cooperating system.

Humans could learn a lesson or two from it. Anxious

Edited so I could retrieve something else from Wiki -

This was in the section where they were discussing plants but applies to all animals too. Even insects run or fly to get away.


"If you think about it, though, why would we expect any organism to lie down and die for our dinner? Organisms have evolved to do everything in their power to avoid being extinguished. How long would any lineage be likely to last if its members effectively didn’t care if you killed them?"


A clever person solves a problem. A wise person avoids it. Albert Einstein
almo 1
Posted: Tuesday, April 04, 2017 1:38:22 AM
Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 10/16/2016
Posts: 382
Neurons: 1,640
Location: Fussa, Tokyo, Japan







From urban dictionary:




<<pack a lunch>>


1) (Literal) To prepare a lunch meal for travel
2) (Slang) To be prepared for a long effort
3) (Slang) To wear a false penis, esp. a lesbian/bisexual woman



We're going up to the park for a picnic, I'm going to pack a lunch.

If he's going to tangle with me, he'd better pack a lunch.

At the lesbian bar, half the women were dressed as men and packing lunches.









Ashwin Joshi
Posted: Tuesday, April 04, 2017 2:17:18 AM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 8/3/2016
Posts: 957
Neurons: 61,661
Location: Jandiāla Guru, Punjab, India
Like there is difference in 'killing' and 'murdering', so is in

reading, studying and absorbing the Holy Bible.



Killing an animal intentionally and for a purpose (food) amounts to 'murder'.

Me Gathering Pebbles at The Seashore.-Aj
Lotje1000
Posted: Tuesday, April 04, 2017 2:46:57 AM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 11/3/2014
Posts: 742
Neurons: 325,342
Location: Gent, Flanders, Belgium
hedy mmm wrote:
The animals are not 'murdered', they are 'killed'...so, first we need to know the difference between the two...
[...]
with malice aforethought.

Malice is a form of evil intent that separates “murder” from “killing”.


What about those murderers who treat their victims much like butchers treat their animals? Routine, with no emotional investment and for some perceived necessity.
pjharvey
Posted: Tuesday, April 04, 2017 3:35:05 AM
Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 4/13/2012
Posts: 725
Neurons: 39,475
That was a good one, Lotje1000! One that should make us all think a lot.
OnTheVerge
Posted: Tuesday, April 04, 2017 3:53:12 AM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 10/7/2014
Posts: 199
Neurons: 298,802
Location: San Francisco, California, United States
Lotje1000 wrote:
hedy mmm wrote:
The animals are not 'murdered', they are 'killed'...so, first we need to know the difference between the two...
[...]
with malice aforethought.

Malice is a form of evil intent that separates “murder” from “killing”.


What about those murderers who treat their victims much like butchers treat their animals? Routine, with no emotional investment and for some perceived necessity.



Excellent point Lotje, In the case of a sociopathic serial killer their animals are the people and it most assuredly has to do with said "perceived necessity"!

Hedy, What about that? If humans treat other humans like you say most people who eat meat treat animals, isn't that killing as opposed to murdering? In their minds, they don't perceive malice, the do perceive intent. Just like animal killers do! Think





While timorous knowledge stands considering, audacious ignorance hath done the deed
whatson
Posted: Tuesday, April 04, 2017 4:31:11 AM
Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 2/19/2016
Posts: 152
Neurons: 1,656
Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
.
So many wasted words!
OP was sad ONLY about (unpardoned) TURKEYS slaughtered AFTER Thanksgiving.
Ashwin Joshi
Posted: Tuesday, April 04, 2017 6:05:31 AM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 8/3/2016
Posts: 957
Neurons: 61,661
Location: Jandiāla Guru, Punjab, India
“Blessed are the merciful, for they will receive mercy.” —Matthew 5:7


“And to every beast of the earth, and to every bird of the air, and to everything that creeps on the earth, everything that has the breath of life, I have given every green plant for food.” —Genesis 1:30

Me Gathering Pebbles at The Seashore.-Aj
Hope123
Posted: Tuesday, April 04, 2017 2:21:24 PM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 3/23/2015
Posts: 5,728
Neurons: 34,371
Location: Burlington, Ontario, Canada
whatson wrote:
.
So many wasted words!
OP was sad ONLY about (unpardoned) TURKEYS slaughtered AFTER Thanksgiving.


True. But can that not be extended to mercy for all animals as in my posts? And is not the suggestion of a couple of meatless meals a week a partial answer for all animals? And is not treating animals humanely part of slaughtering them?


But if you want the question answered., "Yes, it is hypocrisy". And it is really just a joke to pardon one. I don't know the beginnings or the theory behind why they do it. I don't know of any other country that does it.

One can quote religion for or against nearly every topic but that does not really solve the problem of whether or not to slaughter animals.

A clever person solves a problem. A wise person avoids it. Albert Einstein
Ashwin Joshi
Posted: Tuesday, April 04, 2017 10:59:26 PM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 8/3/2016
Posts: 957
Neurons: 61,661
Location: Jandiāla Guru, Punjab, India
Hope123.......that is Honestly Applause Applause Applause Applause Applause Applause Applause Applause Applause Applause Applause Applause Applause Applause Applause Applause Applause Applause Applause Applause Applause Applause Applause Applause Applause Applause Applause Applause

Me Gathering Pebbles at The Seashore.-Aj
tunaafi
Posted: Wednesday, April 05, 2017 4:35:26 AM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 6/3/2014
Posts: 3,880
Neurons: 50,934
Location: Karlín, Praha, Czech Republic
hedy mmm wrote:
I have been studying the bible from Genesis to Revelation, in a bible school and a weekly study group and through several texts including Hebrew, Greek and Aramaic translations, for over 45 yrs.

Well, that answers my question. The implication that you have not seriously studied the language was unfounded. My apologies.

Quote:
Jesus was there before the foundations of the world,


However, if that is the result of 45 years of study, I am not convinced of the overall value of such study.

Quote:
you are not really interested in what I've written, you are just being who you are


It is true that I find little of interest in what appears to be the aggressive tone of some of your posts. However, I read with interest your calmer words. Unlike TheParser, I do read posts from people with different opinions from my own, as do you. As a result of your claim about the meaning of 'kill' in the commandment, I discovered:

The Hebrew verb רצח‎ (r-ṣ-ḥ, also transliterated retzach, ratzákh, ratsakh etc.) is the word in the original text that is translated as "murder" or "kill", but it has a wider range of meanings, generally describing destructive activity, including meanings "to break, to dash to pieces" as well as "to slay, kill, murder". [...]

The Bible never uses the word retzach in conjunction with war. [...]

The act of slaying itself, regardless of questions of bloodguilt, is expressed with the verb n-k-h "to strike, smite, hit, beat, slay, kill"
.
http://forum.thefreedictionary.com/postsm947201_Thanksgiving-and-Slaughtering-.aspx#947201

Quote:
I have prepared research, documentation and data

Good. It would save time if you presented it in future.


Quote:
I will destroy you

I hope you mean 'destroy your (tuna's) arguments'. If so, fine. Forums are a place for debate.

Quote:
if you plan to take me on


I will continue to question claims not backed by evidence made by any member of the forum.


Far away is close at hand in images of elsewhere – The Master of Paddington.
Ashwin Joshi
Posted: Wednesday, April 05, 2017 1:22:16 PM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 8/3/2016
Posts: 957
Neurons: 61,661
Location: Jandiāla Guru, Punjab, India
tunaafi sir cool, cool. I beg.

Me Gathering Pebbles at The Seashore.-Aj
tunaafi
Posted: Wednesday, April 05, 2017 1:40:46 PM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 6/3/2014
Posts: 3,880
Neurons: 50,934
Location: Karlín, Praha, Czech Republic
Ashwin Joshi wrote:
tunaafi sir cool, cool. I beg.


Eh?

Far away is close at hand in images of elsewhere – The Master of Paddington.
Users browsing this topic
Guest


Forum Jump
You cannot post new topics in this forum.
You cannot reply to topics in this forum.
You cannot delete your posts in this forum.
You cannot edit your posts in this forum.
You cannot create polls in this forum.
You cannot vote in polls in this forum.

Main Forum RSS : RSS
Forum Terms and Guidelines. Copyright © 2008-2017 Farlex, Inc. All rights reserved.