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Finite and Non finite clauses Options
You know who I am
Posted: Wednesday, March 15, 2017 9:48:52 PM

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Hey guys, AGAIN!

I have another question regarding finite and non-finite clauses:

In this sentence:

I want to find dead animals

Is it a finite or non-finite clause? There are finite and non-finite verbs, so, what is it?


Jesus, He is the way, the truth and the life, no one gets to the Father if not through Him.
Drag0nspeaker
Posted: Thursday, March 16, 2017 12:24:38 AM

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Joined: 9/12/2011
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Location: Livingston, Scotland, United Kingdom
The main verb of the sentence is "(I) want". Its object is the infinitive phrase "to find dead animals", which is acting as a noun.

A clause always has a finite verb.

A full sentence always has a finite verb.

There are 'shortened sentences' in which some parts are just not spoken - particularly in answer to a question or as imperatives - such as:
Q - "What do you want?"
A - "To find dead animals." - this is a full sentence with the subject and finite verb "understood" - not spoken.
Imperative - "(You) Open the door."

LOOK AGAIN -
Clause - noun
Clauses are groups of words that contain both a subject and a predicate. Farlex Grammar Book - Clauses
1. Grammar A group of words containing a subject and a predicate and forming part of a compound or complex sentence. American Heritage
1. (Grammar) grammar a group of words, consisting of a subject and a predicate including a finite verb, that does not necessarily constitute a sentence. Collins English Dictionary
1A unit of grammatical organization next below the sentence in rank and in traditional grammar said to consist of a subject and predicate Oxford Dictionary

Wyrd bið ful aræd - bull!
You know who I am
Posted: Thursday, March 16, 2017 2:39:17 PM

Rank: Member

Joined: 1/13/2017
Posts: 444
Neurons: 3,584
Location: Olinda, Pernambuco, Brazil
Drag0nspeaker wrote:
The main verb of the sentence is "(I) want". Its object is the infinitive phrase "to find dead animals", which is acting as a noun.

A clause always has a finite verb.

A full sentence always has a finite verb.

There are 'shortened sentences' in which some parts are just not spoken - particularly in answer to a question or as imperatives - such as:
Q - "What do you want?"
A - "To find dead animals." - this is a full sentence with the subject and finite verb "understood" - not spoken.
Imperative - "(You) Open the door."

LOOK AGAIN -
Clause - noun
Clauses are groups of words that contain both a subject and a predicate. Farlex Grammar Book - Clauses
1. Grammar A group of words containing a subject and a predicate and forming part of a compound or complex sentence. American Heritage
1. (Grammar) grammar a group of words, consisting of a subject and a predicate including a finite verb, that does not necessarily constitute a sentence. Collins English Dictionary
1A unit of grammatical organization next below the sentence in rank and in traditional grammar said to consist of a subject and predicate Oxford Dictionary


So, in sentences such as: I would love to have done it - There are no non-finite clauses; "to have done it" is just acting as a noun which is the complement of the main finite verb "would love", right?

Jesus, He is the way, the truth and the life, no one gets to the Father if not through Him.
Drag0nspeaker
Posted: Thursday, March 16, 2017 3:19:09 PM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 9/12/2011
Posts: 24,753
Neurons: 128,238
Location: Livingston, Scotland, United Kingdom
You know who I am wrote:
So, in sentences such as: I would love to have done it - There are no non-finite clauses; "to have done it" is just acting as a noun which is the complement of the main finite verb "would love", right?

One small sentence in your statement says it all.

"There are no non-finite clauses." - The definition of "clause" includes "with a subject and predicate, including a finite verb".
If a group of words does not include a subject and a finite verb, it is not a clause.

"To have done it" is an infinitive phrase (a non-finite phrase). It is acting as a noun.

The pattern of the sentence is:
I would love an ice-cream.
I would love it.
I would love to have done it.
I would love to do it.
I would love doing it. (not so common, but you will hear it)

"An ice-cream" is a noun (with article).
"It" is a pronoun.
"To have done it", "to do it" and "doing it" are phrases acting as nouns.

***************
As you saw in the other thread, the names change a little.
"Would love" is a verb-group which is finite and hypothetical. (A functional definition, it says what the function of the phrase is.)
You could also say that "would" is a finite modal verb and "love" is a bare infinitive. (An analytical definition, it says what types of words the phrase is composed of.)

"Would have loved" is a verb-group which is finite, perfect and hypothetical.
You could also say that 'would' is a finite modal verb and "have loved" is a perfect infinitive.
You could also say that "would" is a finite modal verb, "have" is an infinitive auxiliary and "loved" is a past participle.

The names don't really matter if you understand the pattern and what it means.
Some people would say that "love" is transitive and takes an object, not a complement but I can understand why you said 'complement' - as 'love' is a feeling rather than an action.


Wyrd bið ful aræd - bull!
You know who I am
Posted: Thursday, March 16, 2017 4:34:48 PM

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Joined: 1/13/2017
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Neurons: 3,584
Location: Olinda, Pernambuco, Brazil
Drag0nspeaker wrote:
You know who I am wrote:
So, in sentences such as: I would love to have done it - There are no non-finite clauses; "to have done it" is just acting as a noun which is the complement of the main finite verb "would love", right?

One small sentence in your statement says it all.

"There are no non-finite clauses." - The definition of "clause" includes "with a subject and predicate, including a finite verb".
If a group of words does not include a subject and a finite verb, it is not a clause.

"To have done it" is an infinitive phrase (a non-finite phrase). It is acting as a noun.

The pattern of the sentence is:
I would love an ice-cream.
I would love it.
I would love to have done it.
I would love to do it.
I would love doing it. (not so common, but you will hear it)

"An ice-cream" is a noun (with article).
"It" is a pronoun.
"To have done it", "to do it" and "doing it" are phrases acting as nouns.

***************
As you saw in the other thread, the names change a little.
"Would love" is a verb-group which is finite and hypothetical. (A functional definition, it says what the function of the phrase is.)
You could also say that "would" is a finite modal verb and "love" is a bare infinitive. (An analytical definition, it says what types of words the phrase is composed of.)

"Would have loved" is a verb-group which is finite, perfect and hypothetical.
You could also say that 'would' is a finite modal verb and "have loved" is a perfect infinitive.
You could also say that "would" is a finite modal verb, "have" is an infinitive auxiliary and "loved" is a past participle.

The names don't really matter if you understand the pattern and what it means.
Some people would say that "love" is transitive and takes an object, not a complement but I can understand why you said 'complement' - as 'love' is a feeling rather than an action.


Quote:
The names don't really matter if you understand the pattern and what it means.
Some people would say that "love" is transitive and takes an object, not a complement but I can understand why you said 'complement' - as 'love' is a feeling rather than an action.


Yes, I meant direct object of the verb love; I thought that complement of the verb and direct object had no differences and that they were only different terms Whistle..

Quote:
The names don't really matter if you understand the pattern and what it means.


Yes, I do understand your point and actually don't know why I've been struggling with these finite and non-finite verbs, every time I get close to get a definitive answer, someone contradicts what someone else said Brick wall.

I think I will have to understand both points, your point: I would love to do it (Would love = finite verbs) and others's point: I would love to do it (would = finite verb, love = non-finite verb).

So, let's get to the chase:

I will need your answer for both points of view, just like the answer you gave me in the last post:

In these sentences: Do I need to go? Have I seen you before? Would you like to talk to me? Are you sad for saying that?
I was going to meet you there, I should have been warned earlier, I am being boring today.

Could you describe each one of them in your point view and the others's point view?


Jesus, He is the way, the truth and the life, no one gets to the Father if not through Him.
Drag0nspeaker
Posted: Thursday, March 16, 2017 9:03:09 PM

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Joined: 9/12/2011
Posts: 24,753
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Location: Livingston, Scotland, United Kingdom
Hi again.

Firstly, I would like to slightly revise your summary so far - it's only one word, but it makes a difference, especially if the person reading it has not read the three threads together.

I think I will have to understand both points, your point: I would love to do it (Would love = finite verbs verb-group) and others's point: I would love to do it (would = finite verb, love = non-finite verb).

*************
Do I need to go?
(A note of caution - "need" can be used as a transitive verb or an auxiliary verb. This is the transitive version)
1. The subject is I
The verb-phrase (or verb-group) is do . . . need, transitive, interrogative, finite
The object is the infinitive to go, acting as a noun.


2. Subject is I
The main verb is need (infinitive, transitive)
The finite verb is do which forms the interrogative.
The object is the infinitive to go, which acts as a noun.


***************
Have I seen you before?
1. Subject is I
verb-phrase is have seen - linking verb, perfect tense.
complement is you
adverb - before
The inversion of subject and auxiliary verb forms the interrogative.


2. Subject is I
auxiliary verb is have, finite
main verb is seen - linking verb, past participle (non-finite).
complement is you
adverb - before
The inversion of subject and auxiliary verb forms the interrogative.


****************
Would you like to talk to me?
1. You - subject
would like - conditional form of the verb 'like'. Finite.
to talk to me - infinitive phrase, acting as a noun-phrase, complement.
- to talk - infinitive verb
- to - preposition
- me - pronoun, object of 'talk'
Inversion of subject and auxiliary verb forms the interrogative.


2. You - subject
would - modal auxiliary verb, finite
like - infinitive
to talk - infinitive verb
to - preposition
me - pronoun, object of 'talk'
Inversion of subject and auxiliary verb forms the interrogative.


****************
Are you sad for saying that?
1. (I would not use this sentence myself, but the analysis is this)
you - subject
are - main verb, linking-verb, finite
sad - adjective, subject complement
for saying that - adverbial prepositional phrase of cause
- for - preposition
- saying - gerund
- that - indicative pronoun, object of 'saying'
Inversion of subject and main verb forms the interrogative.


2. you - subject
are - main verb, linking-verb, finite
sad - adjective, subject complement
for - preposition
saying - gerund
that - indicative pronoun, object of 'saying'
Inversion of subject and main verb forms the interrogative.


**************
I was going to meet you there,
1. I - subject
was going - main verb, past progressive, finite
to meet you there - adverbial phrase of purpose. Infinitive phrase.
- to meet - infinitive
- you - pronoun, object of 'meet'
- there - adverb (qualifies 'meet')


2. I - subject
was - auxiliary verb finite
going - main verb, present participle, non-finite
to meet - infinitive
you - pronoun, object of 'meet'
there - adverb (qualifies 'meet')


**************************
I've been called away - take no notice of anything beyond this line, it's not complete. I'll be back.
I'm back

I should have been warned earlier
1. I - subject
should have been warned - verb phrase, finite, unreal, perfect passive of 'warn'
earlier - adverb


2. I - subject
should - modal auxiliary, finite
have - auxiliary, infinitive
been - auxiliary infinitive
warned - past participle, non-finite
earlier - adverb


******************
I am being boring today.
This is a sentence which some people say may not exist. Some have the opinion that the progressive form of the verb 'be' may never be used.
However, it is a normal tense used by people all over England. It is ONLY used when the state described is temporary, unusual and, often, deliberately 'acted/artificial'. "Be can be used, in that way, as a dynamic verb.
So your sentence implies that you are usually not boring, but today you are acting that way consciously.
1. I - subject
am being - present progressive of 'be', finite
boring - adjective
today - adverb


2. I - subject
am - auxiliary verb, finite
being - present participle of 'be', non-finite
boring - adjective
today - adverb


***************
On my comments above:
Some verbs can be both stative and dynamic:

Be
"Be" is usually a stative verb, but when it is used in the continuous it means 'behaving' or 'acting'
"You are stupid" = it's part of your personality
"You are being stupid" = only now, not usually

Seonaid Beckwith MPhil (Master's Degree in English and Linguistics, Cambridge) - Perfect English Grammar

Wyrd bið ful aræd - bull!
Audiendus
Posted: Friday, March 17, 2017 9:24:08 AM
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Joined: 8/24/2011
Posts: 3,888
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Location: London, England, United Kingdom
I would just make the following amendments:

Drag0nspeaker wrote:
Have I seen you before?
1. Subject is I
verb-phrase is have seen - linking transitive verb, perfect tense.
complement object is you
adverb - before
The inversion of subject and auxiliary verb forms the interrogative.


2. Subject is I
auxiliary verb is have, finite
main verb is seen - linking transitive verb, past participle (non-finite).
complement object is you
adverb - before
The inversion of subject and auxiliary verb forms the interrogative.

Drag0nspeaker wrote:
I should have been warned earlier
1. I - subject
should have been warned - verb phrase, finite, unreal, perfect passive of 'warn'
earlier - adverb


2. I - subject
should - modal auxiliary, finite
have - auxiliary, infinitive
been - auxiliary infinitive past participle
warned - past participle, non-finite
earlier - adverb
Drag0nspeaker
Posted: Friday, March 17, 2017 11:18:34 AM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 9/12/2011
Posts: 24,753
Neurons: 128,238
Location: Livingston, Scotland, United Kingdom
Thanks Audiendus!

On the 'see' verb, I was a bit in doubt - but then looked it up and saw that it could be considered either (being a verb of perception).
Then I thought "When I see you, nothing is actually done to you; you don't receive any effect" - so decided it must be a linking verb here.
I'll study some more on that.

The "been = infinitive" was just a stupid mistake, which I didn't notice and correct when I came back from the interruption. It's definitely a participle.

Wyrd bið ful aræd - bull!
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