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wish, wouldn't and as well Options
Evergreen
Posted: Wednesday, February 15, 2017 4:41:18 AM
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Can you tell me, whether it's possible to build a responding statement as below:

A/ I wish it didn't rain so much today
Answer/ I wish it wouldn't rain tomorrow as well
pjharvey
Posted: Wednesday, February 15, 2017 5:33:27 AM
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I think that it should be:

"I wish it wouldn't rain tomorrow either."
tunaafi
Posted: Wednesday, February 15, 2017 6:14:43 AM

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I wish it wouldn't rain tomorrow is possible only in a climate in which you know for a fact that it is going to rain tomorrow. In much of the world you would say I hope it doesn't/won't rain tomorrow.
Evergreen
Posted: Wednesday, February 15, 2017 6:54:17 AM
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Thanks.
I should add an ambient look of the situation :
These days rain is a problem.
So, the rain becomes an impediment for many people.
They wish it would stop raining today, tomorrow and a day after tomorrow as well.
The respondent wishes his companion could stop raining tomorrow as well as today
Character: being shy about English grammar, no knowledge how to tone the speech,
feels quite akward about it, ready to yield to a better knowledge
Kirill Vorobyov
Posted: Wednesday, February 15, 2017 7:17:49 AM

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I guess something like May there be no rain works here
Think
Drag0nspeaker
Posted: Wednesday, February 15, 2017 8:21:27 AM

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As tunaafi says, "wish" has some specific uses.

In general, it is used for "irreal" situations - ones which we know are not true or possible.
It is used for the past.
I wish it had rained yesterday. (we know it did not rain)
I wish it had not rained yesterday. (we know it did rain)

It is used for the present.
I wish it were not raining. (we know that it is raining)
I wish it were raining. (we know that it is not raining)

It can be used for the future.
I wish it wouldn't rain tomorrow. (we know that it will rain - it is impossible that it won't)
I wish it would rain tomorrow. (we know that it will not rain.)

It can be used for present/future possibilities when followed by a noun-phrase, not a clause.
We wish you a Merry Christmas.
He wished her a happy new year.

**************
Future possibilities use 'hope' followed by a clause.
I hope it doesn't rain tomorrow. (It's possible it will, and possible that it won't.)
I hope it rains tomorrow. (It's possible it will, and possible that it won't.)

Wyrd bið ful aræd - bull!
Evergreen
Posted: Wednesday, February 15, 2017 8:37:46 AM
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OK. Either day might play without rain. The respondent "R" also wishes it wouldn't rain tomorrow, or
"R" can wish in the same way as well. "R" isn't making the weather forecast and hopes
that the rain adds not much of "the rains work"

Thank you.


thar
Posted: Wednesday, February 15, 2017 8:49:56 AM

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As has been said, you have to use a different verb for the future.


I wish it hadn't rained yesterday.

I wish it hadn't rained today. (At the end of the day)
Or, during the day:
I wish it wasn't raining today.

I hope it doesn't rain tomorrow.

You wish for something that didn't or can't happen. Only magic can make it different. Whistle
You hope for something that can happen. Even if it is unlikely.

Kirill Vorobyov
Posted: Thursday, February 16, 2017 5:14:03 AM

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It is interesting that when referring to the present Dragon uses past subjunctive, while Thar uses past indicative:
I wish it were not raining
I wish it wasn't raining


From earlier discussions I understand that de-facto both options are possible in modern English, although sometimes this does spark arguements Angel

Drag0nspeaker
Posted: Thursday, February 16, 2017 6:24:53 AM

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Yes - 'de facto', they both work well.

Only we 'old fogies' and a few younger pedants insist on the subjunctive in most cases.

In conditionals ("If" sentences especially), the subjunctive is still fairly common, more so than in 'wish' and 'hope' sentences.

"If I were a carpenter . . ."

Wyrd bið ful aræd - bull!
Kirill Vorobyov
Posted: Thursday, February 16, 2017 7:03:14 AM

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Drag0nspeaker wrote:
Yes - 'de facto', they both work well.

Only we 'old fogies' and a few younger pedants insist on the subjunctive in most cases.

In conditionals ("If" sentences especially), the subjunctive is still fairly common, more so than in 'wish' and 'hope' sentences.

"If I were a carpenter . . ."


I know about if and wish, but I don't recall anybody mentioning the need to use subjunctive after hope...
In what kind of context can (or even should) subjunctive be used after hope?
Thank you, Dragon.
thar
Posted: Thursday, February 16, 2017 7:08:40 AM

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It's even more convoluted than that.

I thought about this, and 'I wish it wasn't raining today/right now' is how I would probably say it.

But, on its own, without the 'today', but meaning the same thing - - I wish it weren't raining.


That is just perverse. d'oh!
Drag0nspeaker
Posted: Thursday, February 16, 2017 7:17:55 AM

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Kirill Vorobyov wrote:
I know about if and wish, but I don't recall anybody mentioning the need to use subjunctive after hope...
In what kind of context can (or even should) subjunctive be used after hope?
Thank you, Dragon.

I didn't think before I wrote, but it is true. It's now VERY unusual.

I hope I'm right.
One would hope that one were right.
(Incredibly formal and 'posh' - you might hear Prince Charles say something like this occasionally.)

Wyrd bið ful aræd - bull!
Kirill Vorobyov
Posted: Thursday, February 16, 2017 7:28:57 AM

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Hmm... Thank you very much, Dragon and Thar! I love this.
Just trying to develop a "sense of it"... What about present subjunctive?

Could this work, perhaps in a very formal seeting? -


(Some noble/important guest had been invited a few times, but never came. Nevertheless, and since he is so important, he's been invited again, and this conversation takes place between hosts:)

- Is he coming today, do you know?
- Let's hope it be so, after all.

?
Drag0nspeaker
Posted: Thursday, February 16, 2017 8:00:24 AM

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Hi again.

It sounds almost 'archaic' but I think it's right.

You would be more likely to hear the 'modal' version. Something like:

- "Is he coming today, do you know?"
- "Let's hope he might."
- even that sounds 'affected' or 'too formal for conversation'.

(More normal would be "Let's hope he does.")

Wyrd bið ful aræd - bull!
Kirill Vorobyov
Posted: Thursday, February 16, 2017 8:08:29 AM

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I see. Thank you very much, Dragon!

These nuances of English are fascinating. Perhaps because they are of somewhat different nature than those in other Indo-European languages, as far as I know, certainly different from what one has to deal with when studying Russian, for example. All those modals, and nuances of use of prepositions... Very interesting stuff.

We should and are, as far as I am concerned, be very grateful to people like you, Dragon and Thar, and other native speakers who help foreign learners with all this.



Drag0nspeaker
Posted: Thursday, February 16, 2017 10:50:02 AM

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Kirill Vorobyov wrote:
These nuances of English are fascinating. Perhaps because they are of somewhat different nature than those in other Indo-European languages. . .

I think that part of the reason for the 'complications' is that "English Grammar" was a very popular subject back in the eighteenth/nineteenth centuries.

The dialect spoken by the "university classes" was prescribed as being "correct". The English spoken by the 90% of English people was "WRONG". (Only the rich and 'Noble' upper classes went to university in those days).

So these 'formally correct' styles (which were based on Latin grammar, and don't fit the English language very well) tend to 'die out' and be forgotten.

They are still taught, I guess, at some of the private "Preparatory Schools" - Charterhouse, Cheltenham Ladies' College, Eton - (where you pay for ten years of education, and the child is then guaranteed entry to Oxford or Cambridge or wherever) - but no-where else.



Wyrd bið ful aræd - bull!
Romany
Posted: Thursday, February 16, 2017 11:30:37 AM
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Ok, so here I come in at the end again, but, Drago,no! Pray Please don't lump people who DO speak like that in with the Royals!!


"One would hope that one were right."only sounds like Prince Charles if it's said the way Prince Chares would say it."

Spoken, (especially by someone with a bit of an Oz accentWhistle ) one would elide 'one would' (Dancing ) and stress 'hope' . Thus, the second 'one' becomes little more than an 'n' sound and 'would' is almost just a faint effort. Because by now the point of one's utterance: ('Hope', obviously in this example)) has been grasped.

I know you come from Oop North but, although I live in the South, I'm in daily contact with people from all over England and they also would be capable of producing a sentence like that. But they aren't posh - and gawd knows, I ain't, neither.

The people I communicate with on a daily basis are all connected in some way to what I do, so I guess that isn't all that remarkable: - but my social media is the same demographic. And that's thousands of people. So I really don't think it's "posh", though undeniably not "common tongue".

Once in a while I see you remark that something is 'posh' that I would say quite naturally, and am surprised. But it wasn't till I read the above sentence in print that it suddenly dawned on me that maybe you were hearing it in a Monty Python sketch way, all drawly and strangled vowels.

But really, there are a lot of people who still do care about the English Language, and consider the meaning of each word important, and to whom syntax is natural. Their accents may differ, but they still construct it in the same way.

Even when I talk Chav with the neighbours, my pronunciation might start melding; but my syntax doesn't! And not one of them thinks I'm posh.Shame on you

I asked them

Drag0nspeaker
Posted: Friday, February 17, 2017 4:11:03 AM

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Romany wrote:
But it wasn't till I read the above sentence in print that it suddenly dawned on me that maybe you were hearing it in a Monty Python sketch way, all drawly and strangled vowels.

Yes - it's only when you remind me, that I realise that there are people who speak like that normally.

I don't think I have ever heard anyone say "One would" meaning "I do" except the royals and Monty Python.

It's just not done, what?

Wyrd bið ful aræd - bull!
Romany
Posted: Friday, February 17, 2017 6:42:25 AM
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Well, this one does it!Sick

One would hope that one day when you're in Brighton, you might, without realising, be a visitor to one's place of work. There one can hear people 'one would'-ing all over the show!Dancing Dancing
Drag0nspeaker
Posted: Friday, February 17, 2017 6:52:19 AM

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One might consider it if one were invited. Eh? Anxious

Wyrd bið ful aræd - bull!
Romany
Posted: Friday, February 17, 2017 7:00:46 AM
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Any time boyo, any time. Always happy to call a bluff.Whistle

You might even meet my alter-ego who speaks exclusively in Georgian English too.Drool But she's as common as muck and has never 'one'd' in her life!
Evergreen
Posted: Thursday, February 23, 2017 2:32:17 PM
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Reply. I would like the rain to stop tomorow or better today.
I think the expression it's raining Cats and Dogs can sound in my dialogue as well as "I'd like the rain to stop better, tomorrow or today".
Cats and dogs are just like today and tomorrow in the rain.
It's rather a hedgehog phrase, but I think that all other sentences about rain aren't yet condemned to be of the same pivot of marked borders by English and French (that's what all strangers may expect about the English).

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