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gammaglot
Posted: Tuesday, February 14, 2017 9:13:13 AM
Rank: Newbie

Joined: 8/20/2009
Posts: 11
Neurons: 371
It has been said (I am not sure where or when ):
"There is no place in the mind of a religious fanatic (extremist) where reason and logic can enter."
This statement has been attributed to the once Emperor of France : Napoleon

I would like to learn if or not you agree, and do you have any stories to tell as to explain why.
I once was speaking with a fundamentalist creationist about dinosaur fossils.
He told me that such things were the result of whirlpools and eddies caused by the Biblical Flood.
My efforts to teach otherwise were futile.
As a Biotech Scientist, I find this troublesome.
Харбин Хэйлунцзян 1
Posted: Tuesday, February 14, 2017 10:01:05 AM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 10/13/2015
Posts: 1,356
Neurons: 500,500
Location: Dzerzhinskiy, Moskovskaya, Russia
gammaglot wrote:
I once was speaking with a fundamentalist creationist about dinosaur fossils.
He told me that such things were the result of whirlpools and eddies caused by the Biblical Flood.
My efforts to teach otherwise were futile.
As a Biotech Scientist, I find this troublesome.

I wish I had your problems.

აბა ყვავებს ვინ დაიჭერს, კარგო? გალიაში ბულბულები ზიან.
Drag0nspeaker
Posted: Tuesday, February 14, 2017 10:05:32 AM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 9/12/2011
Posts: 29,128
Neurons: 167,141
Location: Livingston, Scotland, United Kingdom
I agree - but I reserve the right to define the words.

Religion - n
A cause, principle, or activity pursued with zeal or conscientious devotion:
- American Heritage
something of overwhelming importance to a person: Collins
something a person believes in and follows devotedly. Random House Kernerman Webster's College Dictionary

So this can refer to Christianity, Atheism, Zoroastrianism, Islam, parts of 'Science', Catholicism, Protestantism, Buddhism.

fa·nat·ic n.
A person marked or motivated by an extreme, unreasoning enthusiasm, as for a cause.
American Heritage
a person whose enthusiasm or zeal for something is extreme or beyond normal limits Collins
a person with an extreme and uncritical enthusiasm or zeal, as in religion or politics; zealot. Random House Kernerman Webster's College Dictionary

So a rabid fanatic atheist is in exactly the same state as a rabid fanatic Republican or Democrat, or Muslim or Christian.

There is no place in their minds for any reason or logic.

****************
There are logical and reasoned arguments (particularly based around chaos-theory and the science of probabilities) for which the simplest solution ('Occam's Razor) is that there is some reasoned plan behind creation.
OK - it is not PROOF - but there is no proof of there being no creative plan.

"Religion" does not mean "a slavish reliance on the bible as perfect truth".
Atheism is a religion with no proof as to its veracity.
The belief that a human is nothing but a body is a religion, with no proof whatsoever.
The belief in god as an old man with a beard throwing lightning is a religion with no proof.
The belief that the Pope is infallible is part of religion and has no proof.

There can be evidence for or against any of these beliefs, but until there is PROOF, then each is a religion - which is a belief, not a fact.

When something becomes a proven fact, it is not a religion.



Wyrd bið ful aræd - bull!
will
Posted: Thursday, February 16, 2017 6:27:47 PM
Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 6/29/2009
Posts: 1,077
Neurons: 4,357
gammaglot wrote:
It has been said (I am not sure where or when ):
"There is no place in the mind of a religious fanatic (extremist) where reason and logic can enter."
This statement has been attributed to the once Emperor of France : Napoleon

I would like to learn if or not you agree, and do you have any stories to tell as to explain why.
I once was speaking with a fundamentalist creationist about dinosaur fossils.
He told me that such things were the result of whirlpools and eddies caused by the Biblical Flood.
My efforts to teach otherwise were futile.
As a Biotech Scientist, I find this troublesome.

I don’t know why Drag0nspeaker selectively chose to focus on a metaphorical definition of religion, rather than the standard theistic sense that most people understand. Using such a broad sense muddies the water, and I don’t think what ‘kind’ of fanatic really matters anyway… Buddhist, Scottish or moustachioed.

Fanatical can imply uncritical devotion which is not open to reason and logic, so in general I’d agree with the statement, but it’s not impossible. Uncritical devotion is considered a virtue in most religions, which probably explains why religious fanaticism in particular is so pronounced and pernicious.


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will
Posted: Thursday, February 16, 2017 6:36:14 PM
Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 6/29/2009
Posts: 1,077
Neurons: 4,357
Drag0nspeaker wrote:
There are logical and reasoned arguments (particularly based around chaos-theory and the science of probabilities) for which the simplest solution ('Occam's Razor) is that there is some reasoned plan behind creation.

Can you provide any examples? Think

I don’t think you understand Occam's Razor correctly. It’s not a case of picking a simple solution and calling it a day. Occam's Razor is a tool where falsifiable theories take precedence over theories burdened by unevidenced variables and ad hoc reasoning; then the process moves forward from there by adding falsifiable levels of complexity.

I’m not aware of any ‘planned creation’ hypothesis that doesn’t rely on unevidenced claims and assumptions. I’m willing to bet any example you give is either the opposite of Occam's Razor or it doesn’t indicate a ‘reasoned plan’.

Also, a ‘reasoned plan behind creation’ raises the problem of infinite regression – who or what planned this creation, and then who or what planned and created the reasoning creator etc. etc.

Drag0nspeaker wrote:
OK - it is not PROOF - but there is no proof of there being no creative plan.

There is no burden on anyone to disprove extraordinary assertions.
However, specifically, history is littered with countless appeals to creative plans that have been proved wrong… the sun does not cross the sky in a winged chariot.

Creative entities and plans are frequently invoked at the boundary of our understanding of the universe – god of the gaps where ‘proof’ is lacking – yet every single time the boundary of our understanding is push forward, or a gap is filled, it has never, not once, revealed a creative plan. Neil DeGrasse Tyson wrote an interesting article on this titled The Perimeter of Ignorance

Drag0nspeaker wrote:
"Religion" does not mean "a slavish reliance on the bible as perfect truth".
Atheism is a religion with no proof as to its veracity.
The belief that a human is nothing but a body is a religion, with no proof whatsoever.
The belief in god as an old man with a beard throwing lightning is a religion with no proof.
The belief that the Pope is infallible is part of religion and has no proof.

There can be evidence for or against any of these beliefs, but until there is PROOF, then each is a religion - which is a belief, not a fact.

Sorry, that's nonsense. There is evidence for and against the existence of Santa Claus, but is Santa considered a religion until there is ‘proof’? Or even more absurd, is a non-belief in Santa considered a religion until his non-existence can be proved?

Drag0nspeaker wrote:
When something becomes a proven fact, it is not a religion

There is no such thing as ‘proven fact’. This may be the root of your confusion.



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