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pljames
Posted: Friday, March 25, 2016 10:33:42 AM

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Do Muslims fight other Muslims like in a war? I find no fault with true American or European Muslims and there belief, but I do with the ISIS in Iran. Paul
Drag0nspeaker
Posted: Saturday, March 26, 2016 9:14:24 AM

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You seem to have the right idea (in my opinion) Paul.

The Muslims I know (a few) are no different from the Christians I know (a few) and no different from all the other people I know (a lot) who are neither Christian nor Muslim.

In the same way that there are Christians still killing other Christians in Ireland (depite years of "peace" there), there are Muslims killing other Muslims in the Middle East.

To these people (a minority), religion is an excuse to hurt and kill others, or is a route to power over others.
I doubt that many of them even really believe in the god they are 'fighting for'.

You may not hear of the "Christian" atrocities so much as the "Muslim" ones - here's one article.


Wyrd bið ful aræd - bull!
boneyfriend
Posted: Saturday, March 26, 2016 1:50:09 PM

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I didn't know that there was still trouble in Northern Ireland. Where have I been?

There is no psychiatrist in the world like a puppy licking your face. Ben Williams
Drag0nspeaker
Posted: Saturday, March 26, 2016 2:17:04 PM

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'Fraid so.

This was three months ago:

Quote:
The weapons, including AK-47 assault rifles, mortars, detonators and other bomb parts, were discovered in County Monaghan, close to the border with Rosslea in County Fermanagh, on 1 December.
Insp James O'Leary, of Monaghan police station, said the weapons would have posed "a very significant threat to security personnel on both sides of the border".
On 15 December, a further arms find, described as a "significant cache" by Irish state broadcaster RTÉ, is made in County Louth.
It has reported that the haul included AK47 assault rifles, mortars, explosive material, detonators, other bomb components and at least one revolver.
It follows police searches at a home and lands in Jenkinstown, close to the border with Northern Ireland.


It doesn't get the coverage of ISIS terrorists.


Wyrd bið ful aræd - bull!
boneyfriend
Posted: Saturday, March 26, 2016 6:09:39 PM

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Thanks Dragon and Paul for enlightening me. I had no idea.

There is no psychiatrist in the world like a puppy licking your face. Ben Williams
uuaschbaer
Posted: Monday, March 28, 2016 7:15:28 AM

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The christians I know don't force women to cover their hair, let alone murder them when they wish to marry outside their faith; they don't threaten or use violence against gays and jews, and they don't participate in a dumb education-free macho subculture. Yet I could give examples of these actions performed by muslims from my personal life. To dismiss the proposition that there may be a problem with muslims is to do injustice to muslim women and men, and to gays and jews.

*
tunaafi
Posted: Monday, March 28, 2016 7:50:28 AM

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Most Muslims in Europe and America do not force women to cover their hair. Many Muslim women cover their hair of their own free will. That they make a choice for religious reasons is no different from any similar decision made by people of any faith. (And quite a few Hindus have just as bad a track record. Many Christians did until comparatively recent times.)

Extremely few Muslims in the west murder women who choose to marry outside their faith.

Not many Muslims in the west threaten or use violence against gays or jews.

There are, unfortunately there are some countries in Asia in which power is in the hands of fundamental Muslims who do place foul restrictions on people not of the hard-line faith, and behave towards them in unspeakable ways. Don't judge Muslim in the west, or indeed all muslims in Asia, by the behaviour of a number who have obtained power - often with the active connivance and support of western governments.

In a humane world, the government of Saudi Arabia, to name just one country, would be condemned every single day by all 'civilised' governments. 'Civilised' governments would refuse to have anything to do with such a government, and woud do their best to bring about a degree of liberty for its citizens.

However, western need for Saudi oil, and profits from arms sales mean that we tacitly condone barbarity.

Romany
Posted: Monday, March 28, 2016 8:08:43 AM
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Uuaschbaer -

None of the Muslims I know do any of those things either. I guess we just have different groups of friends?

Fundamentalists represent Muslims in exactly the same way Fundamentalists represent Christians. Murdering people, killing civilians and bombing structures is not restricted to Muslims. American troops - Christians - have been responsible for more death, invasions, wiping out of civilian populations, destruction, since WWII than Muslims.

Playing "Mine's better than yours" over religion has brought misery to the whole world for centuries.

What we all need to fight is not other peoples religions, but ignorance, prejudice and racism. Which can be done more effectively through Education than with guns and bombs.
uuaschbaer
Posted: Monday, March 28, 2016 9:05:37 AM

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Tunaafi,
In western europe muslims are vastly overrepresented in all these activities and more, I disagree that it is only a few. However, instead of dealing with specific issues let's look at the general case: there is a general consensus in the west on certain values and aspects of politics (most favour democracy, value freedom of the individual, value education, etc.), which is important to our societies because it means that as a westerner you can trust your fellow men and women to be the kind of people who you can stick up for and who will stick up for you so long as you don't betray these basic principles. If then substantial shares of the population immigrate from non-western areas, and demonstrate not to share these principles, but instead have different principles of their own, then this basic trust among people in societies deteriorates which causes problems in politics and public life. And this is when you find as the UK that more muslims wish to fight in syria than join your armed forces. I think this is behind many of the current problems in european countries and it serves no one to delay addressing it.

*
tunaafi
Posted: Monday, March 28, 2016 9:32:10 AM

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uuaschbaer wrote:
In western europe muslims are vastly overrepresented in all these activities and more

What evidence do you have for that statement?

Quote:
as a westerner you can trust your fellow men and women to be the kind of people who you can stick up for and who will stick up for you so long as you don't betray these basic principles.


Have you any evidence that this is so?

Quote:
And this is when you find as the UK that more muslims wish to fight in syria than join your armed forces.


How do you know how many Muslims 'wish to fight' in Syria (or 'wish to join' our armed forces? Are you a mind reader?


You have given us a few Trump-like claims with absolutely no evidence for any of them.
Romany
Posted: Monday, March 28, 2016 9:53:18 AM
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Oh, for goodness sake. Drumph may be incapable of using "Google", but no-one on here is.

Back in the day when only the privileged had access to facts there was an excuse for being gullible and ignorant. But it takes only a couple of clicks now - so being gullible or ignorant is completely a matter of choice.

Arguing with facts at hand leads to the truth. Arguing from ignorance and opinion is just a pointless waste of time.
uuaschbaer
Posted: Monday, March 28, 2016 9:57:01 AM

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Romany,
I am not advocating the use of guns and bombs, or religious warfare, but I am denying that the difference between christians and muslims in western european societies is superficial (e.g. merely a different name for God, a different day of prayer, some cosmetic differences in feasts, habits, traditions and food preparation). Instead, I find in my personal life, as well as in statistical reports, that there are, in general, fundamental differences. Whether these differences are due to religion, or culture, or something else doesn't matter to me. Instead I care about the effects they may have on society.

*
tunaafi
Posted: Monday, March 28, 2016 10:14:42 AM

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uuaschbaer wrote:
Instead, I find in my personal life, as well as in statistical reports, that there are, in general, fundamental differences.


Fine, but you have not given any information or statistics from reports so far.Until you do, I for one treat them no more seriously than a claim that members of Sect A kidnap babies from Sect B to feed to their pet crocodiles.
uuaschbaer
Posted: Monday, March 28, 2016 10:31:24 AM

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tunaafi wrote:
uuaschbaer wrote:
In western europe muslims are vastly overrepresented in all these activities and more

What evidence do you have for that statement?

Quote:
as a westerner you can trust your fellow men and women to be the kind of people who you can stick up for and who will stick up for you so long as you don't betray these basic principles.


Have you any evidence that this is so?

Quote:
And this is when you find as the UK that more muslims wish to fight in syria than join your armed forces.


How do you know how many Muslims 'wish to fight' in Syria (or 'wish to join' our armed forces? Are you a mind reader?


You have given us a few Trump-like claims with absolutely no evidence for any of them.


There is quite a bit of evidence for all these things. I think most countries keep statistics on matters of crime and population (mine does, not in english), and police departments publish reports too.
On the syria thing this Guardian article is helpful: http://www.theguardian.com/news/reality-check/2015/dec/11/donald-trump-needs-check-facts-british-muslims-isis, in which is said:
Quote:
According to a freedom of information request to the Ministry of Defence from 2014, there are 640 Muslims in the armed forces
and
Quote:
Shiraz Maher, a senior research fellow at the International Centre for the Study of Radicalisation at King’s College London, estimates that 750 Muslims have gone to Syria to fight over the last three to four years.

Furthermore this article (http://europe.newsweek.com/twice-many-british-muslims-fighting-isis-armed-forces-265865?rm=eu) maintains:
Quote:
According to the Ministry of Defence, there are only around 600 British Muslims currently serving in the Armed Forces, making up approximately around 0.4% of total personnel. 4.3% of the British population are Muslim.

which makes me think that in general muslims in britain aren't particularly interested in defending britain when it comes down to it.

Finally, the proposition that there is no significant difference between muslims and christians in western (european) countries is one that requires evidence too.

*
tunaafi
Posted: Monday, March 28, 2016 11:28:48 AM

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uuaschbaer wrote:
On the syria thing this Guardian article is helpful: http://www.theguardian.com/news/reality-check/2015/dec/11/donald-trump-needs-check-facts-british-muslims-isis, in which is said:
Quote:
According to a freedom of information request to the Ministry of Defence from 2014, there are 640 Muslims in the armed forces
and
Quote:
Shiraz Maher, a senior research fellow at the International Centre for the Study of Radicalisation at King’s College London, estimates that 750 Muslims have gone to Syria to fight over the last three to four years.
.

You are cherry-picking. You missed the conclusion of the article: "It is not really accurate to compare a cumulative number of fighters heading to Isis over a number of years with the current number of Muslim recruits in the British army. But we can say one thing:

"At no point over the past three years has the number of active British Isis fighters eclipsed the number of serving Muslims in the British armed forces."


Quote:
Furthermore this article (http://europe.newsweek.com/twice-many-british-muslims-fighting-isis-armed-forces-265865?rm=eu) maintains:
Quote:
According to the Ministry of Defence, there are only around 600 British Muslims currently serving in the Armed Forces, making up approximately around 0.4% of total personnel. 4.3% of the British population are Muslim.

which makes me think that in general muslims in britain aren't particularly interested in defending britain when it comes down to it.


You could also use these figures to 'prove' that most Muslims are pacifist or that the British army is deliberately not recruiting Muslims. These beliefs are no more than unsubstantiated assumptions.

In any case, the 212000 people in the regular and reserve armed services represent 0.33% of the population, so the Muslims seem to be more prepared to defend Britain than the population as a whole.

Quote:
Finally, the proposition that there is no significant difference between muslims and christians in western (european) countries is one that requires evidence too.

Has anyone put that claim forward?

Even if they had, logical argument requires proof of positive claims. It is no more possible to prove an absence of significant difference between one religion and another that it is to prove the tooth fairy doesn't exist.
ithink140
Posted: Monday, March 28, 2016 11:38:21 AM

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Romany expressed her opinions in her usual aggressive no nonsense manner thus: ‘Drumph may be incapable of using ‘Google’ but no one on here is. But it takes only a couple of clicks now - so being gullible or ignorant is completely a matter of choice.
Arguing with facts at hand leads to the truth. Arguing from ignorance and opinion is just a pointless waste of time.’



Rushing to Google or Wikipedia is no guarantee of getting the facts or wisdom, whereas well- informed opinion, experience, learning and inward honesty counts for a lot. Some folk are like blotting paper and soak up anything they read as fact. Are they not the gullible ones? One man’s fact is another man’s opinion. Google is riddled with errors and assumptions and it requires discernment and a good dose of sense to read between the lines.

Googolites are always ready and eager to present views as facts and claim them as their own. They like to come across as wise but no one is fooled. They are like the folk who quote surveyor figures at you as tho' they are gospel. They do not take into account that the survey results are only as good or bad as the questions asked or the self interest involved. They do not know who did the survey or how wide the reach was, yet they proudly present the findings as 'proof' of the veracity of their case.

Many opinions are later proven to be based on fact. We should not belittle the ‘lowly’ opinion since many proven facts had their birth in opinion. Even intuition can be wisdom.


'Life is too short to be eaten up by hate.'
tunaafi
Posted: Monday, March 28, 2016 11:47:39 AM

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ithink140 wrote:
Rushing to Google or Wikipedia is no guarantee of getting the facts


No, but the 'couple of clicks' Romany mentioned can often help you use Google to find reputable sources.

Quote:
well- informed opinion, experience, learning and inward honesty counts for a lot.


Fine, so long as these things are not presented as facts
ithink140
Posted: Monday, March 28, 2016 11:52:14 AM

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Tuffers opined: No, but the 'couple of clicks' Romany mentioned can often help you use Google to find reputable sources.


Thanks for your opinion, Tuffers. One man's reputable source is another's suspect one. In the end most matters come down to informed opinion do they not. That is my opinion and I am sticking to it

'Life is too short to be eaten up by hate.'
uuaschbaer
Posted: Monday, March 28, 2016 11:52:41 AM

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Quote:
You are cherry-picking. You missed the conclusion of the article

No I didn't, it's just not relevant to my claim that more muslims wish to fight in syria than join the UK's armed forces.

Quote:
You could also use these figures to 'prove' that most Muslims are pacifist or that the British army is deliberately not recruiting Muslims. These beliefs are no more than unsubstantiated assumptions.

These are facts, not beliefs or assumptions. All possible causes of the facts would be bad for the country, and betray that there is problem in society.
edit: it is true that I don't know what the estimate of 750 is based on, my point was to illustrate the deterioration of shared values among people as the glue in society.

Quote:
In any case, the 212000 people in the regular and reserve armed services represent 0.33% of the population, so the Muslims seem to be more prepared to defend Britain than the population as a whole.


Could you explain this further? I'm not sure I understand what you mean.

Quote:
Has anyone put that claim forward?

It's worth investigating in any case. Why should it be presumed to be true?

Quote:
Even if they had, logical argument requires proof of positive claims. It is no more possible to prove an absence of significant difference between one religion and another that it is to prove the tooth fairy doesn't exist.

Two things on this: (1) we're using inductive reasoning and not deductive reasoning, i.e. we deal not with logical proofs but finding which claims are supported by evidence; (2) it is perfectly possible to find evidence for the fact that there is no significant difference between (people adhering to) one religion or the other, for instance one could survey the popularity of democracy among catholics, protestants and anglicans and find that there is not much difference.




*
tunaafi
Posted: Monday, March 28, 2016 12:14:46 PM

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uuaschbaer wrote:
No I didn't, it's just not relevant to my claim that more muslims wish to fight in syria than join the UK's armed forces.


A claim which is not mentioned in the article.

Quote:
These are facts, not beliefs or assumptions.


The figures are facts. Your assumptions are ... well, assumptions.

Quote:
All possible causes of the facts would be bad for the country, and betray that there is problem in society.


What is your evidence for that?

Quote:
Quote:
In any case, the 212000 people in the regular and reserve armed services represent 0.33% of the population, so the Muslims seem to be more prepared to defend Britain than the population as a whole.


Could you explain this further? I'm not sure I understand what you mean.


The statistics appear to show higher percentage of Muslims in Britain than of British people as a whole serve in the armed services.

Quote:
one could survey the popularity of democracy among catholics, protestants and anglicans and find that there is not much difference.

Such a survey might show a similarity of opinion among the three. This would suggest that there may not be much difference, but is not proof of it. In any case, one would have to define 'democracy' very carefully - and also 'popularity'.
uuaschbaer
Posted: Monday, March 28, 2016 12:46:51 PM

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Quote:
A claim which is not mentioned in the article.

Yes it is.

Quote:
The figures are facts. Your assumptions are ... well, assumptions.

Yes, and quite reasonable ones.

Quote:
What is your evidence for that?

Please tell me how having a large portion of the population not being interested in defending the country of their residence, or not being permitted to do so by another portion of the population is not a bad thing.

Quote:
The statistics appear to show higher percentage of Muslims in Britain than of British people as a whole serve in the armed services.

I don't think so:
muslims in armed forces: 600 = 0.004 total forces => total forces = 600/0.004 = 150 000 => non-muslims in forces = 150 000 - 600 = 149 400.
pop. of UK = 65 million (doesn't actually matter);
muslims in UK = 0.043 * 65 million = 2 795 000;
share of muslims in armed forces = 600/2795000 = 0.000215;
share of non-muslims in armed forces = 149400/(65 million (1-0.043)) = 0.0024;
So it seems there are not many muslims in the armed forces.

Quote:
Such a survey might show a similarity of opinion among the three. This would suggest that there may not be much difference, but is not proof of it. In any case, one would have to define 'democracy' very carefully - and also 'popularity'.

I understand you agree with my two statements.

*
tunaafi
Posted: Monday, March 28, 2016 1:53:50 PM

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Sorry, my figures were way out.

Quote:
Please tell me how having a large portion of the population not being interested in defending the country of their residence, or not being permitted to do so by another portion of the population is not a bad thing.

You have presented no evidence at all that a small portion (under 5%) of the population are not interested in defending their country, merely that not many Muslims are in the armed services. If that is the fault of the armed services' recruiting policies, that can hardly be blamed on the Muslims.

I can unfortunately find no accurate figures on the number of Muslims working as doctors, nurses, care assistants, etc, but I suspect that the number who choose to serve in this way would be quite impressive.


Quote:
I understand you agree with my two statements.

I agree with hardly any of your opinions.
uuaschbaer
Posted: Monday, March 28, 2016 2:45:05 PM

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Tunaafi, I think our conversation bore the fruit it will. I'll see you around.

*
tunaafi
Posted: Monday, March 28, 2016 4:23:59 PM

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ithink140 wrote:
One man's reputable source is another's suspect one. In the end most matters come down to informed opinion do they not. That is my opinion and I am sticking to it


Fine. It's just that I happen not to associate your opinion with 'informed' opinion. Before you accuse me of an ad hominem attack, let me remind you of the times when you have refused point-blank to read material that some of us have provided to support our claims, or to refute yours. If you refuse to read material presenting evidence against what you claim, your opinion is hardly informed.

My opinions are, like yours, no more than opinions, but at least I look at what people who do not agree with me say. So, when evidence is produced to show I have made a mistake,I admit it, as I did in this thread.
Maryam Dad
Posted: Monday, March 28, 2016 4:55:58 PM

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You have data how many Muslims in the armed force? That's impressive.

How many persons with Irish descents in the armed force?

"And the sun and the moon are brought together --" (Al Qiyamah: 9)
ithink140
Posted: Monday, March 28, 2016 6:20:24 PM

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Tuffers, there I a limit as to how much time one can afford to look up every tedious link. I have a large personal library and have read up on both sides of many an argument especial the evolution versus creation one. If something catches my interest I will read up on it, for sure. However I must admit I am not a fan of google or Wikipedia and do not like to be drawn into facile arguments that have no ending. Not that you will concede,but I assure my opinions are informed to a good standard. Like Uuaschbaer I feel we have travelled to the end of our journey on this one. Best wishes.

'Life is too short to be eaten up by hate.'
eraigames
Posted: Monday, March 28, 2016 7:33:15 PM
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I noticed that Tunaafi did miss or at least fail to comment on a couple of things that uuaschbaer said.


Still, I think the back-and-forth that transpired in this thread was unwarranted as uuaschbaer seemed (according to my interpretation of his/her initial couple of posts) to be merely positing that there may be an issue which ought to be discussed. Such a statement does not necessarily need to be accompanied by statistical evidence.

I happen to agree with him/her that there may well be an issue. I appreciated uuaschbaer's description of how cross-cultural conflicts can become problematic for a society and I do think that that has been an issue. I see it a lot here in California (particularly in the San Francisco Bay Area) where there are a lot of Asian (predominantly Indian and Mainland Chinese) people coming to work and their cultural background is incompatible with some of the mores of mainstream American culture, Californian culture, Bay Area culture, and Bay Area workplace culture.

For example, a good friend of mine works for a certain Silicon Valley company which used to have a fair number (for the notoriously male-dominated region) of female employees. The unit he worked in had ~30 women and ~50 men until a couple of years ago when a few of the women and many of the men were laid off and replaced with numerous men from overseas. After the change there were ~25 women and ~70 men. Recently, after months of sexual harassment by the foreign men, nearly all of the women quit in protest. There may have been nepotism and other such things that also contributed to the women leaving, but every one of the women cited mistreatment by the newcomers as their primary motivation for quitting. While the sort of behavior that the foreign men engaged in may not be considered "good" in their cultures of origin, it is extremely commonplace and almost never discouraged so it is understandable that they might behave similarly here. It is also understandable that women here would react visibly negatively to such treatment and that society would likely condemn such behavior.

There might be a similar issue with people of religions which profess values that are similarly incompatible with other cultures. I don't know how many of the hardline religious people are living in the UK or other such countries, but, if there are a lot of them, then that could present a problem.
jesusandmo
Posted: Tuesday, March 29, 2016 10:29:51 AM
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It's pointless to compare Islam against Christianity in a context of one religion being better or worse than another. Prior to the late middle ages there was no abstract concept of 'religion' as we understand it today. There is no Sanskrit, Greek or Latin word that translates to the English 'religious'. Religion in the Bible or Koran (or other sacred texts) are ancient concepts that might translate today as something like 'culture'. It's no more valid to single out the 'barbarism of Muslims' than it is to single out the 'violent imperialism of Americans'.

In the West we're so used to the concept of secularism that it's possible for us to separate out the 'religious' element and make that the 'us and them' distinction, as if our overlapping politics, economics and cultures play no part. For groups like ISIS the distinction between politics, culture and God simply doesn't exist.

For more moderate Muslims, including the majority in the West, there is an uncomfortable dissonance between an inherited, all encompassing, cultural tradition and the demotion of belief to insignificant personal gods in a secular society.

The war we are fighting is not Muslim versus Christian. If mankind survives another 500 years, I believe we will look back at this period as the battle between Humanity and all religious faith.


ithink140 wrote:
I have a large personal library and have read up on both sides of many an argument especial the evolution versus creation one.


Out of interest would you name a few of the titles, from your large personal library, that cover the evolution and creation argument?

Jyrkkä Jätkä
Posted: Wednesday, March 30, 2016 4:13:26 AM

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Wisely said, jesusandmo. Applause


In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.
tunaafi
Posted: Wednesday, March 30, 2016 5:56:21 AM

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jesusandmo wrote:
The war we are fighting is not Muslim versus Christian. If mankind survives another 500 years, I believe we will look back at this period as the battle between Humanity and all religious faith.


Quite. One of the problems that people in the west have in dealing with some of the darker side of the beliefs of some Muslims is that Christian beliefs are accorded undue respect and unreasonable legal protection in many western countries.

For some reason, people who believe in God, and more specifically in the Christian god, are treated with more respect, and given more privileges, than people who believe in the tooth fairy or Santa Claus. For example, It's illegal in most western countries to discriminate in any way against women - unless you are a church. God says it's OK not to employ women, so that's OK then.

And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?
Mat 7:3
jesusandmo
Posted: Wednesday, March 30, 2016 6:26:19 AM
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Jyrkkä Jätkä wrote:
Wisely said, jesusandmo. Applause


Thank you. Normal service will soon resume. Whistle

Trichakra
Posted: Thursday, September 15, 2016 12:01:45 AM

Rank: Newbie

Joined: 8/30/2016
Posts: 37
Neurons: 161
pljames wrote:
Do Muslims fight other Muslims like in a war?

I think yes. But i am not sure about that..
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