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Oregan land problem. Options
pljames
Posted: Thursday, January 28, 2016 11:29:49 AM

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What is there problem? I heard the Indians sold the land to the goverment? Why are these people getting themselves shot? It's the government land? What's the beef? Writer One
redgriffin
Posted: Thursday, January 28, 2016 6:41:07 PM

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The terrorists want the US Government to turn over the land to the people so they can use it as they want. The Irony is that the land users have been in negotiations with the Bureau of Land Management to modify the land usage deals with the Bureau and the talks were cut off as soon as Mr. Bundy and his gang showed up because the Interior Department saw the town of Burns and its county as hostages. Also the occupiers had been ask to leave many times. The truth is that Oregon Ranchers, timber men and farmers are some of the best conservationists in the country.
Drag0nspeaker
Posted: Monday, February 01, 2016 11:51:33 AM

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I don't understand the idea of "the government turn over the land to the people".

The government ARE the people!

Government by the people for the people.

Do you mean that it's not true - that the government are a separate group from the people of America?


Wyrd bið ful aræd - bull!
Hope123
Posted: Monday, February 01, 2016 1:04:39 PM

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Drago, I don't know anything about Oregon, but in Canada we have public land and private land. Canadians as a group own and may be on and 'use' public land - such as walking on boulevards owned by the city, but we can't alter them for private use. We can't go plant flowers or dig them up, because they are for the use of everyone, not just certain people. (People do cut the grass for the city.) Sometimes we have disputes about the easeway areas between private property and water, and the beaches. But usually the deed specifies how far out into the water the property owner owns and whether or not there is easement. And an owner has to give others permission in writing to walk across their front yard/beach and say that it is not a permanent easement. Otherwise after a certain time those walking on your land have rights. Forget what they call it. But there was a path to 'the point' across our front yard at the lakehouse in northern Ontario, and we had to deal with it.

From what you say Redgriffin, it sounds as if the Oregon govt was in talks to give the ranchers special privileges??

World food shortage that threatens five hundred million children could be alleviated at the cost of one day's warfare.
Drag0nspeaker
Posted: Monday, February 01, 2016 1:19:59 PM

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That sounds similar to the 'rights of way' laws here.

If a land-owner allows people to use a footpath across owned land, then OK - it does not give anyone else the right to cross.

However, if he does not deny the right (or charge a fee) at least once in 'a year and a day', then the right of way becomes public and he may never refuse anyone again - UNLESS no-one uses the path for a year and a day.

This is why there are 'footpaths societies' around Britain who make sure that someone hikes every footpath at least once a year, to keep them open.


Wyrd bið ful aræd - bull!
FounDit
Posted: Monday, February 01, 2016 2:06:56 PM

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Drag0nspeaker wrote:
I don't understand the idea of "the government turn over the land to the people".

The government ARE the people!

Government by the people for the people.
That's the way it is supposed to be. The government holds much of the land in the western states in trust for the public, (public land) with bureaucracy's established to oversee its use for the benefit of the public.

However, too often, those bureaucracy's are populated with political cronies who use the power of the office to support or advance political agendas rather than the good of the public. Decisions are supposed to be open to the public for opinions before being enacted, but many times those opinions are ignored for just such reasons.

When that happens the question you ask below is answered in the affirmative.

Do you mean that it's not true - that the government are a separate group from the people of America?


A great many people will think they are thinking when they are merely rearranging their prejudices. ~ William James ~
Hope123
Posted: Monday, February 01, 2016 3:11:49 PM

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Good to know that Canada is not the only country with politicians and govt bureaucrats who use their power for their own purposes or to line their own pockets. I don't know the status right now but several CDN senators have been under investigation and at least one was on trial - I have not been keeping up with the CDN news much.

So now we can see both sides of the story and understand somewhat what is going on in Oregon.

ETA - was just told by an American neighbor that the farmers want to treat the land as if they DO own it personally - burning it and even allowing timber mining. The land would end up stripped if so. This is his understanding of the situation.

He also understands that after one of the occupiers pulled a gun that he was shot and killed, that some have been arrested, and that the stalemate is just about over.

World food shortage that threatens five hundred million children could be alleviated at the cost of one day's warfare.
Hope123
Posted: Monday, February 01, 2016 3:56:35 PM

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Now I am curious so I googled a bit. Apparently the two prominent members of the militia who were calling for people to join them to fight a 'tyrannical government' are not even locals. They travel around and join in any local fights and make things worse. The two farmers who are going back or are in prison for arson for burning government land want nothing to do with this militia.

World food shortage that threatens five hundred million children could be alleviated at the cost of one day's warfare.
Hope123
Posted: Monday, February 01, 2016 4:25:04 PM

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Paul, VOX is a controversial website but it seems to present both sides here if one looks at both the links.

http://www.vox.com/2016/1/5/10718128/federal-land-west-oregon-militia


http://www.vox.com/2016/1/3/10703712/oregon-militia-standoff



World food shortage that threatens five hundred million children could be alleviated at the cost of one day's warfare.
pedro
Posted: Tuesday, February 02, 2016 6:04:40 AM

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This Land Is Your Land
Words and Music by Woody Guthrie

This land is your land This land is my land
From California to the New York island;
From the red wood forest to the Gulf Stream waters
This land was made for you and Me.

As I was walking that ribbon of highway,
I saw above me that endless skyway:
I saw below me that golden valley:
This land was made for you and me.

I've roamed and rambled and I followed my footsteps
To the sparkling sands of her diamond deserts;
And all around me a voice was sounding:
This land was made for you and me.

When the sun came shining, and I was strolling,
And the wheat fields waving and the dust clouds rolling,
As the fog was lifting a voice was chanting:
This land was made for you and me.

As I went walking I saw a sign there
And on the sign it said "No Trespassing."
But on the other side it didn't say nothing,
That side was made for you and me.

In the shadow of the steeple I saw my people,
By the relief office I seen my people;
As they stood there hungry, I stood there asking
Is this land made for you and me?

Nobody living can ever stop me,
As I go walking that freedom highway;
Nobody living can ever make me turn back
This land was made for you and me.

All good ideas arrive by chance- Max Ernst
Drag0nspeaker
Posted: Tuesday, February 02, 2016 9:32:17 AM

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The Manchester Rambler - Ewan MacColl

The day was just ending
As I was descending
Trough Grindsbrook just by Upper-Tore
When a voice cried: "Hey You!"
In the way keepers do
He'd the worst face that I ever saw
The things that he said were unpleasant
In the teeth of his fury I said
Sooner then part from the mountains
I think I would rather be dead.

He called me a louse
And said: "Think of the grouse"
Well, I thought but I still couldn't see
Why old Kinder Scout
And the moors round about
Couldn't take both the poor grouse and me.
He said: "All this land is my master's"
At that I stood shaking my head
No man has the right to own mountains
Any more than the deep ocean bed




Wyrd bið ful aræd - bull!
ithink140
Posted: Saturday, March 05, 2016 5:59:12 AM

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What is ownership? Is it not a set of rights, which at very best exist until your death? Ownership is tenuous isn’t it, although inheritance can continue, and thus rights, after your death through family members. It is nonetheless easily lost or given up.

I had not heard of the Kinder Scout marchers until Drago posted his informative post. So one can ‘own’ or have rights over something justly, legally or and unfairly. The notion that one can own a mountain other than in the sense of having temporary rights over it is ridiculous.

Dragon, I thought that right to roam was enshrined in Scotland’s laws. Is this not so or have I got this wrong?


'Life is too short to be eaten up by hate.'
Drag0nspeaker
Posted: Saturday, March 05, 2016 8:48:43 AM

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Joined: 9/12/2011
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Location: Livingston, Scotland, United Kingdom
Hi!

Well, there is no law of trespass in Scotland, as such - but there are still laws about 'breaking and entering', 'criminal damage' and 'illegal occupancy'.
I suppose someone could try to make a case that walking on his land damages the grass, or something.

Similar to England and Wales, there are common-laws of Right of Way, which have been in force since Mediaeval times. If I remember correctly (and if new parliamentary laws haven't come in in the last fifty years) a 'footpath used from ancient times' cannot be blocked unless no-one walks on it for a year and a day (one can put a style on it, or a 'kissing gate', but access has to be allowed.
Similarly, a footpath made across private land becomes public right of way if access is not denied at some point during any year and a day period.

The old 'Footpaths Association' used to have detailed maps of every known footpath (some dating back to ones mentioned in the Domesday Book of 1080 or so). They used to ensure that someone documented a walk along each path each year.

Kinder Scout is a small part of the Peak district (which covers parts of Derbyshire, Lancashire, Yorkshire and Staffordshire (may be bits of other counties too). It's #5 on this map, not really farming land!



The red areas on the map are now preserved as 'National Parks and Areas of Outstanding Beauty' (plus others in Scotland which are not shown).


Wyrd bið ful aræd - bull!
progpen
Posted: Saturday, March 05, 2016 10:22:29 AM

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Location: Princeton, Minnesota, United States
redgriffin wrote:
The terrorists want the US Government to turn over the land to the people so they can use it as they want. The Irony is that the land users have been in negotiations with the Bureau of Land Management to modify the land usage deals with the Bureau and the talks were cut off as soon as Mr. Bundy and his gang showed up because the Interior Department saw the town of Burns and its county as hostages. Also the occupiers had been ask to leave many times. The truth is that Oregon Ranchers, timber men and farmers are some of the best conservationists in the country.


I understand that ranchers, farmers and timber men can be (and many are) great conservationists. They should be (and are) a part of the decision making process when it comes to how government land can and should be used. The issue was that a very small number of terrorists decided that they should own the land in question, whereas the rest of the country disagrees. This has all been about a very small number of people who demanded ownership of something and were not given it. In the real world, this is called stealing.

One other item that keeps surfacing in their demands is that they believe the US Government has too much land. This is a purely subjective point of view, just as is my own point of view which is that the US Government needs to set aside even more land so it will not be developed. I understand that both of our points of view are subjective, whereas those terrorists only see my point of view as subjective and their point of view should be law.

Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter. ― Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.
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