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What is the predicate? Options
Al Blanco
Posted: Monday, October 26, 2009 9:19:46 AM
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Hello, everybody! I have a question.

I have read in a grammar book (by R.Close) that in the sentence 'the teacher's desk stood on a high platform' – 'stood on a high platform' is the predicate. But an American told me that his father (a teacher of English) explained him that only 'stood' is the predicate. Who is right?
Luftmarque
Posted: Monday, October 26, 2009 11:16:08 AM

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Al Blanco wrote:
Hello, everybody! I have a question.
I have read in a grammar book (by R.Close) that in the sentence 'the teacher's desk stood on a high platform' – 'stood on a high platform' is the predicate. But an American told me that his father (a teacher of English) explained him that only 'stood' is the predicate. Who is right?

I suppose we could say that stood is the predicate proper and that stood on a high platform is the entire predicate phrase.

}- Luftmarque لوفتمارك -{ Le doute n'est pas une condition agréable, mais la certitude est absurde.—Voltaire
Al Blanco
Posted: Monday, October 26, 2009 11:44:54 AM
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Luftmarque wrote:
Al Blanco wrote:
Hello, everybody! I have a question.
I have read in a grammar book (by R.Close) that in the sentence 'the teacher's desk stood on a high platform' – 'stood on a high platform' is the predicate. But an American told me that his father (a teacher of English) explained him that only 'stood' is the predicate. Who is right?

I suppose we could say that stood is the predicate proper and that stood on a high platform is the entire predicate phrase.


But what's the difference between the predicate phrase and Verb Phrase? Where in the verb phrase in this sentence then? It's the same?
Luftmarque
Posted: Monday, October 26, 2009 12:23:43 PM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 3/17/2009
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Location: Pau, Aquitaine, France
Al Blanco wrote:
Luftmarque wrote:
Al Blanco wrote:
Hello, everybody! I have a question.
I have read in a grammar book (by R.Close) that in the sentence 'the teacher's desk stood on a high platform' – 'stood on a high platform' is the predicate. But an American told me that his father (a teacher of English) explained him that only 'stood' is the predicate. Who is right?

I suppose we could say that stood is the predicate proper and that stood on a high platform is the entire predicate phrase.


But what's the difference between the predicate phrase and Verb Phrase? Where in the verb phrase in this sentence then? It's the same?

The predicate must have at least a verb. This may help.

}- Luftmarque لوفتمارك -{ Le doute n'est pas une condition agréable, mais la certitude est absurde.—Voltaire
Al Blanco
Posted: Monday, October 26, 2009 12:58:36 PM
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Joined: 10/26/2009
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Neurons: 1,688
The predicate must have at least a verb. This may help.


That's why I asked. Wikipedia (as well as R.Close) says that in 'John's mother, Felicity, gave me a present' - 'gave me a present' is the predicate. And the predicate contains objects, complement, adverbials etc. In Russian grammar, for example, 'gave' is the predicate, and 'me' and 'present' are objects. But Wikipepia says that it's traditional English grammar. Maybe 'gave' is the predicate in American modern grammar? Like in Russian one?
Luftmarque
Posted: Monday, October 26, 2009 1:05:12 PM

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Al Blanco wrote:
The predicate must have at least a verb. This may help.
That's why I asked. Wikipedia (as well as R.Close) says that in 'John's mother, Felicity, gave me a present' - 'gave me a present' is the predicate. And the predicate contains objects, complement, adverbials etc. In Russian grammar, for example, 'gave' is the predicate, and 'me' and 'present' are objects. But Wikipepia says that it's traditional English grammar. Maybe 'gave' is the predicate in American modern grammar? Like in Russian one?

So, are you saying that, in Russian grammar, predicate only refers to the verb? In English the predicate is all the other stuff that isn't the subject. Here, gave is the verb part of the predicate. (Better English grammarians than me may be able to correct or expand on this.)

}- Luftmarque لوفتمارك -{ Le doute n'est pas une condition agréable, mais la certitude est absurde.—Voltaire
teacherwoman
Posted: Monday, October 26, 2009 1:38:35 PM

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The difference between verb and predicate:

"verb" refers to the word class (noun, verb, adjective...)

"predicate" refers to the grammatical function within the sentence. (But see below)

The idea of dividing the sentence into subject, predicate, object... comes from Latin grammar.
As Latin used to be the language of science, its grammar was applied to a lot of European languages (within the reach of Roman / classical culture).

But English does not work like Latin. So in the 20th century new / different ways of analysing English sentences came about each with their own nomenclature.

A predicate in the classical sense would simply be the main/ ruling verb of a sentence (without its objects).
In the sentence "Ernie eats cornflakes" Earnie would be the subject, eats the predicate and cornflakes the object.

Looking at phrasal verbs, however, like "have breakfast" talking about a predicate "have" and "its object" "breakfast" does not seem to describe what's really going on grammatically, since breakfast seems to be an integral part of the verb (although it is a noun). When I say "Earnie has breakfast" I don't mean that he's carrying it around in his pocket, but that he is eating it.

This might explain the use of the word "predicate" in a broader sense denoting the entire verb phrase.

To make things even more confusing, a lot of grammars use the word "verb" when they actually mean "predicate". For example, my students learn that the word order in English is "subject - verb - object". So verb can be both - the word class and its functional part in the sentence.


"predicative" by the way, is something else.
Al Blanco
Posted: Monday, October 26, 2009 2:25:33 PM
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So, are you saying that, in Russian grammar, predicate only refers to the verb?

Not exactly. In 'Jack is a politician' – 'is a politician' is considered as the predicate too ('a politician' is called 'a nominal part of the predicate' or something like this. But objects and adverbials are definitely not parts of the predicate in Russian.


In English the predicate is all the other stuff that isn't the subject.

Yes, it is what I understood from Wikipedia and my British grammar book by R.Close. But firstly you said that ' I suppose we could say that stood is the predicate proper and that stood on a high platform is the entire predicate phrase' and it confuses me a bit :)



To make things even more confusing, a lot of grammars use the word "verb" when they actually mean "predicate". For example, my students learn that the word order in English is "subject - verb - object". So verb can be both - the word class and its functional part in the sentence.

It confuses me too…
In Russian there are two different categories - the parts of speech (noun, verb, adjective...) and elements of the sentence (subject, predicate, object…). That is, it's the same as in English but one should never confuse them. So 'subject – verb – object' sounds really confusing for me.

So am I right in thinking that there are two possible ways?

1. The predicate is all the other stuff that isn't the subject.
2. Only the main verb of a sentence is the predicate.

And which approach is more popular?

"predicative" by the way, is something else.

Yes, it was a misprint :)
Luftmarque
Posted: Monday, October 26, 2009 3:05:44 PM

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Al Blanco wrote:
In English the predicate is all the other stuff that isn't the subject.

Yes, it is what I understood from Wikipedia and my British grammar book by R.Close. But firstly you said that ' I suppose we could say that stood is the predicate proper and that stood on a high platform is the entire predicate phrase' and it confuses me a bit :)

Well, I didn't know what I was talking about so that's understandable.

}- Luftmarque لوفتمارك -{ Le doute n'est pas une condition agréable, mais la certitude est absurde.—Voltaire
789789
Posted: Monday, October 26, 2009 8:30:44 PM
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Both are correct, depending on where you are from.
Al Blanco
Posted: Tuesday, October 27, 2009 12:47:35 PM
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Well, I didn't know what I was talking about so that's understandable.

It was a difficult question, I think : )



Both are correct, depending on where you are from.

What is the Canadian approach to the matter? I was told that in American schools they don't use the term 'predicate' at all.

And by the way, what is the subject in 'the teacher's desk stood on a high platform'? 'Desk' or 'the teacher's desk'? Or it depends on the country too?
earthyspirit
Posted: Thursday, October 29, 2009 2:10:48 PM

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Location: Can add ahhhh
pre- -dic- -ate

pre- in advance of, in front of, before, prior
di- 2 di- duo-/bi- twi- dvi-
c
-ate, acted upon or being in a (specified) state'

the root of the term is pre-

the trunk -dic- or -di-

the branch -cate or -ate

phraase structure should follow term structure.

two ``true` predicates in the sentence are "teacher's" and "stood"

you've mispelled teachers' '_pose ess IVz

predicate : teacher "owns" something
also "something" is "doing/residing"

truth of matter is -di or di-ce as I.D. roll both ways.
desk is teachers' and teacher is desks'.
paragorillabear
Posted: Thursday, October 29, 2009 3:37:08 PM
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Earthy = Ear, as in throat
where Thy is Thee, but not, since possessive
as in Posses heading off at the pass-passive

so Your Throat is My Ear

Spirit = breath, as in Respiration, Suspiration
as in ... Geez! can someone buy this guy a Mental Breath Mint!

His grammar smells like rotten cheese!!!

Thus, Earthy Spirit = bad grammar breath in your throat-ear.
Please ignore the bug behind the curtain.
paragorillabear
Posted: Thursday, October 29, 2009 3:47:05 PM
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and here's the "real answer" btw

[though I use quotes since, of course, reality is something of a mental construct, as is the notion of correct or incorrect answers, and, of course, as is the grammar we use to structure our language and the terminology thereof]

But, hey, according to these constructs, here's the real answer:

In English, "predicate" refers either to the verb itself or to the verb, its complements/objects, and its modifiers.
Some lessons will distinguish between these two definitions by using terms such as "simple predicate" and "complete predicate."

Likewise, we can refer to the "simple subject" ("desk" in the example) or the "complete subject" -- the subject with all its modifiers.

To confuse the matter a bit further we have the terms "verb phrase" and to a lesser extent "noun phrase."
"Verb phrase" can be used to mean the "complete predicate" but it can also be used to mean simply the main verb with its auxiliaries.
earthyspirit
Posted: Thursday, October 29, 2009 4:40:29 PM

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paragorillabear wrote:
Earthy = Ear, as in throat
where Thy is Thee, but not, since possessive
as in Posses heading off at the pass-passive

so Your Throat is My Ear

Spirit = breath, as in Respiration, Suspiration
as in ... Geez! can someone buy this guy a Mental Breath Mint!
His grammar smells like rotten cheese!!!
Thus, EarthySpirit = bad grrr.am.mar breath in your thro.a.t-ear.
Please ignore the b.ug be.hind the curt.a.in.


E=ether|ethur thro-at|so.und et.her|e-at.her-e @e|at.e
ar=air|ayr
Ea=ether/earth either it it or it is
Er=air thru ether(be-wreathing-b.re-a.thing


Reading left-right, of light for dark, o flight ford arc
E.art.hy ("E" art high
Earth.y (Earth why?
E.ar.thy ("E" air thy
Ear.th.y (Ear the {symbol=y

S.pi.rit ("S" PI->
Spi.rit (Spy|see writ or right\rite
Spir.it (Spear it
Sp.iri.t (Esp|ecially eery|eary tee|send

Quote:
His grammar smells like rotten cheese!!!


Earthyspirits G-rammer, so pow!errful, surfers smell it
apotapo
Posted: Tuesday, November 10, 2009 9:45:40 AM
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The verb itself is called predicator. Predicate is everything after the verb.
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