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In today's world it is almost impossible to get a job without first attending college to some extent, but why?
We as people deserve the same opportunity as everyone but why does it have to be next to impossible to get there? The board of education expects us as students to learn everything from basic math and English skills to Advanced Physics to graduate from High school.
Why can't we as students work toward our career path rather than taking four years of high school bull crap before they allow us to do so. All I want to do is go to school for two years after I graduate high school next year to become an Auto Mechanic but they want me to know Spanish, Advanced Functions and Modeling, etc.
It all seems like a waste of time.
"Men become wise just as they become rich, more by what they save than by what they receive." Wilbur Wright(April 16, 1867 – May 30, 1912)
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I think you have hit on the current and long held view that education is just about academic achievement. Practical skills are undervalued now days and yet they are of great value… something I think you would agree with.
The streets are full of folk unemployed yet holding some degree or other. As long as you are sure of your path then take it... with pride.
'Do not argue with a fool, even if he pesters you to engage with him.'
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Suppose your parents were insane people who had always denied you an education and had forced you to work on their farm all your life (for sustenance), and suppose that you wouldn't be able to get a farming job elsewhere because all farmers are insane and have slave children and all you know is farming, and besides that you wouldn't be able to pay for an education on your own or invest in your own farm for want of money, then an enforced education could save your freedom. I think that may be the general idea of such an education, but that couldn't of course keep it from also being a waste of time.
The opposite of hatred is love; the opposite of tyranny is love; the opposite of censorship is love; the opposite of evil is love; the opposite of politics is love; the opposite of war is love; the opposite of god is love.–– Salman Rushdie
Broadly speaking, it is held that getting money is good and spending money is bad. Seeing that they are two sides of one transaction, this is absurd; one might as well maintain that keys are good, but keyholes are bad. Whatever merit there may be in the production of goods must be entirely derivative from the advantage to be obtained by consuming them. –Bertrand Russell
Never believe a liar. Papa, angry people burn our home.
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I think the major problem in the US at this time is that we have become more tied to giving a equal education and so we must prove this by testing the little tike that we have forgotten that school is about learning. I think that we need to do a major reconstruction of the Education system so that we meet the needs of the industry in the area where the school is located. I think that the Grade schools should teach the 3 r's and then at grade 5 a test of proficiency. Middle School should be heavy on Science and Math, at Grade 8 Comprehensive test High school should have students prepare for CC or College with a basis in Industrial Arts and Sciences and Math. Senior Year Comprehensive tests And at the Community Colleges You decide to eith er go Industrial Arts or College level course. In other words we must go back to the 50's and 60's and us the Comprehensive test to only show the District how each school is doing. The DOE's only job should be to supervise the handing out of Education standards.
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About all the "bull crap" they want you to learn in high school.
First of all, this is your last chance at "free" education,so learn all you can now.
You are not just taking classes to learn the subject matter. You are also learning how to learn. Consider high school students to be "adults in training". You are finding out about the opposite sex and how to interact with others.
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It used to be a High School education was sufficient to obtain a decent job; now it has become college or some part thereof.
It isn't that having a college education makes one any better or smarter than another. One can have a Master's or Ph.D and still be stupid as a post. Some of the most brilliant people of the 20th Century never even finished High School, much less college.
The goal is filtering. For any job, there are far too many people who will apply. So employers need a way to winnow out many, allowing them to choose from a smaller pool. Education does that without anyone screaming discrimination.
The employer can advertise, saying he requires a certain amount of college, or a certain degree, and this helps winnow the field of applicants.
It may not be fair, or right, but it is the way the world works. Adapt, because it isn't going to change.
A great many people will think they are thinking when they are merely rearranging their prejudices. ~ William James ~
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chopperpilot01 wrote:Why can't we as students work toward our career path rather than taking four years of high school bull crap before they allow us to do so. All I want to do is go to school for two years after I graduate high school next year to become an Auto Mechanic but they want me to know Spanish, Advanced Functions and Modeling, etc. It all seems like a waste of time.
When I was 18 and leaving high school, I had no idea what I wanted to do with my life. The teachers said that I did not have direction and was a waste of time. The war in Vietnam was raging and I was subject to the draft. All I knew was that I did not want to do what others wanted me to do. I was sick of school and told my parents that college was a waste of their money and my time. Later, at age 25, I changed my mind and enrolled in college, focused on being an engineer. Sometimes, some of us need more time to explore the world before we decide what it is that we want to involve ourselves with for our most productive years. There is nothing wrong with wanting to be an auto mechanic, but I question how one can be so certain at such a young age? Live life like there is no tomorrow and explore all that you can. Advanced Functions, modeling, poetry, music, art, genetics, history, mathematics, sociology, and others will expose you to things you never dreamed of. Look at it as an adventure. You are the explorer. Dare to live your dreams!
"Always wash your hands and say your prayers for germs and Jesus are everywhere." -Naomi Judd
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On my first full day at College, we had an all day seminar. Among the activities was an exercise where we wrote a paper, the, subject of which was "The Value of a Well-Rounded Liberal Arts Education".
I shrugged it off as self-serving, after all, I had to take all sorts of classes as an undergrad that had nothing to do with my major. It seemed like job security for English and History professors.
I basically said what Mailady did, only not as clearly and part of me felt I was just saying what they wanted to hear.
Over time, as the years have passed, I've come to see the truth of it. That is the irony....in high school, you are not going to see the value in learning a variety of subjects. But, from math you learn logic and discipline, from science, the scientific method, from literature the ability to communicate.
The world is filled with far too many people that are excellent in their narrowly focused area of expertise, but are naive and illiterate otherwise. This leaves you ripe to be fodder for charlatans: religious nuts, politicians that divide and rule in someone elses' interest, not in yours.
In short, become good at one thing, be a cog in the machine. One dimensional, and gullible.
"Be without fear in the face of your enemies. Be brave and upright that God may love thee. Speak the truth always, even if it leads to your death. Safeguard the helpless, and do no wrong". (Knight's Oath, Kingdom of Heaven)
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This is the age old question. Why do I have to learn all this crap?
I so remember.
There are several really good answers posted here. Here is another viewpoint.
Strangely enough, some of what you are learning may come in handy in ways you would never think. Perhaps you will use the Spanish in your travels. Perhaps something you learn will prepare you to develop the car of the future that does not run on gasoline.
Maybe it will not be the specific piece of knowledge that you learned but the method you learned as to how to solve problems. Or the work ethics you develop. Or the curiosity about something as you study a related topic.
The subject is only the tool. The real learning is that you now know how to tackle problems. You will know how to understand, then remember, then apply, and then create new ideas from that.
You will have learned to evaluate, analyse, elaborate, collocate, and then communicate findings.
One needs to learn HOW, not WHAT. The scientific way of solving problems is to formulate a theory, do the experiment, draw conclusions, and then communicate them to others. One needs to learn how to collaborate. One needs to learn social skills.
Education is not just learning the subject matter. Learning is not only memorizing and remembering. It is knowing how and when to apply it. The more practice you have in doing that in several subjects, the more you learn how.
Do you not have a tech strain for people interested in mechanics or technology?
Surely you must be learning some subjects to lead you to your goal?
If your school is not doing the above to prepare you for your chosen vocation, then the schools, the board of education, and the members of parliament should be challenged to put into place such a program.
Who knows how long positions will exist in the future. Many types of jobs have disappeared over the years. Sam, the Music Man store is long gone. ITunes is here. You are being trained for jobs that do not even exist now. Although I really can not see cars disappearing in the foreseeable future. But stranger things have happened in my lifetime.
You will be a much more rounded person and will be able to talk about more than auto mechanics if you continue with a variety of subjects. And - maybe you will change your mind.
So why not relax, enjoy your friends, and have some fun before you have to enter the work force where you will be for many years.
My one piece of advice to the young is not to wish your life away. It goes fast enough.
And if all these arguments fail - see what FounDit and Mailady said! It is what it is!
Education is never a waste of time. I would hope you are still learning at a hundred.
(A personal piece of advice, not about school, but about when you are a mechanic if you do not change your mind by then. Please do not ever skip using a safety device such as when under a car or limousine, thinking you will be under and out in a minute. I lost a nephew that way.)
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An article discussing The New American Divide, from The Wall Street Journal. The essay talks about how the American way of life is fading, and to illustrate how the gap has widened over the past 50 years, the author uses two fictional models of neighborhood, Belmont and Fishtown, and comes up with some interesting observations. I found this article relevant to the topic under discussion as the key for this study is based on two groups 1. People of age 30 - 49, with at least a college education working in managerial jobs or high-status profession. 2. People of age 30 - 49 with no more than a high school education in a blue-collar, low-skill or service jobs. and discusses what has happened to America's common culture between 1960 & 2010. I come from India, and profess no knowledge about American culture; the class disparities, and effects of lack of eduction among poor masses in India are humungous and I firmly me believe that good education, can act as an equalizer, in our society. Similar studies conducted, although based on other indicators relevant to Indian society bears out this fact. Would love to hear your views.
I tore myself from the safe comfort of certainties through my love for truth; and truth rewarded me ~ Simone De Beauvoir
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Education is wasted on the young! I have always known what I am most interested in, from before school, so I am lucky. My only regret is that there was not enough time in the education system to do all the things I wanted to do. I studied science and geography, but I also wanted to study music, languages, engineering, history, archaeology, classics, all to a higher level; do more sport, more everything. Even at the time I could never understand how people can not enjoy school! But I think society does have a skewed idea on the value of an academic education, and totally unrealistic expectations that a teenager should know what they want to do with the rest of their life. Work experience, technical skills, are vastly undervalued. They are what run the economy, not college-acquired knowledge. It should be made much easier to work, and acquire or update skills as necessary, when you are mature enough to value and use the educational experience! totally unrelated point: I want to post this because it struck me so oddly, and this thread seems as good as any. The list of finalists of the major american high school science competition were announced yesterday. All high school students are free to enter, they do some original scientific research, and a panel picks the best entries. These are the finalists: Li, Jiacheng; Saha, Sayoni; Fannjiang, Clara Louisa; Li, Jack Zhihao; Yao, Leon; Lehmann, Meredith Paloma; Pan, Jin; Zhang, Alissa Yuan; Yu, Zizi; Patel, Neel S.; Chen, Sitan; Kalinich, Adam Orval; Cotler, Jordan Saul; Fein, Eric Edgar; Prabhu, Anirudh; Koehler, Frederic; He, Xiaoyu; Ding, Fengning; Jena, Siddhartha Gautama; He, Philip Cody; Tumma, Nithin Reddy; Chen, Evan Matthew; Kim, EunBe; Goldman, Danielle; Kim, Savina Dine; Sato, Anna; Juliana Mathea; Mehta, Neil Kamlesh; Wang, Angela; Fan, Huihui; Yen, Mimi; Davis, Rachel Michelle; Van Doren, Benjamin Mark; Bechtel, Marian Joan; Carsch, Kurtis Mickel; Chyao, Amy Cindy; Quintero, Oliver Adolfo; Dyckovsky, Ari Misha; Sushko, Andrey;Now, congratulations to all those bright and hardworking students. They come from all over the US, from normal and specialist science high schools. I certainly do not want to make a racial issue of this, or go into the role of parental pressure, teacher stereotyping or judging bias, but just reading the list of names it jumps out at me, that unless American youth is 50% east asian, then this list is seriously unrepresentative. I know this is a tiny sample, but it just seems so skewed, the authorities should be worried. Maybe a lot of non-immigrant or non-asian americans feel the same way about the value of high school education? http://www.societyforscience.org/sts/2012/finalists
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thar wrote:
Li, Jiacheng; Saha, Sayoni; Fannjiang, Clara Louisa; Li, Jack Zhihao; Yao, Leon; Lehmann, Meredith Paloma; Pan, Jin; Zhang, Alissa Yuan; Yu, Zizi; Patel, Neel S.; Chen, Sitan; Kalinich, Adam Orval; Cotler, Jordan Saul; Fein, Eric Edgar; Prabhu, Anirudh; Koehler, Frederic; He, Xiaoyu; Ding, Fengning; Jena, Siddhartha Gautama; He, Philip Cody; Tumma, Nithin Reddy; Chen, Evan Matthew; Kim, EunBe; Goldman, Danielle; Kim, Savina Dine; Sato, Anna; Juliana Mathea; Mehta, Neil Kamlesh; Wang, Angela; Fan, Huihui; Yen, Mimi; Davis, Rachel Michelle; Van Doren, Benjamin Mark; Bechtel, Marian Joan; Carsch, Kurtis Mickel; Chyao, Amy Cindy; Quintero, Oliver Adolfo; Dyckovsky, Ari Misha; Sushko, Andrey;
I recognized one name as Japanese: Anna Sato
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almostfreebird wrote:
I recognized one name as Japanese:
Anna Sato
That's Finnish ;-)
"A fine beer may be judged with only one sip, but it's better to be thoroughly sure." - Czech proverb
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I think one should bear in mind that education does not end with schooling. We do not leave school and suddenly stop learning do we?
Someone in an earlier post made a good point, at least that is my view, when the comment was made that education teaches you to how to learn... to think. Education is not about remembering all you learn... who does.
The education systems of the world are not perfect since there is a tendency to set you on a track like a train engine and to make you follow a line.
If you decide, Chopperpilot, to pursue academic studies then be a questioner and do not be afraid to be unpopular. Being off-centre can lead to greater learning. Stop the train sometimes and get off.
'Do not argue with a fool, even if he pesters you to engage with him.'
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I imagine all of the finalists are children of Intel employees -- Science at its most propendent. {just kidding}
Along with some 1000 classmates, I was warehoused in high school. After being far away for 25 years, I went to my 40th HS reunion last summer. The warehouse effect remained in full swing among classmates who never left our hometown. I enjoyed talking to classmates who got the hell out of that stodgy town just as soon as the final bell rang at the end of our senior year. The light was still on in their eyes. Their minds were open. We toasted the fruition of our rebelliousness.
ChopperPilot -- Get the hell outa Dodge and have fun following your dreams among new friends in new places. Living a full life will take you to where you have to go.
All politics is applesauce. ...Will Rogers
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Ask yourself a question: If you had to take your car to a shop to be fixed, would you rather have it fixed by someone with 50 years of experience with cars or by someone with a degree in automotive technology? Obviously either one can fix your car equally well, but the one with the degree has measureable credentials.
Formal education gives one MEASUREABLE credentials upon which to ply thier trade.
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richsap wrote:Ask yourself a question: If you had to take your car to a shop to be fixed, would you rather have it fixed by someone with 50 years of experience with cars or by someone with a degree in automotive technology? Obviously either one can fix your car equally well, but the one with the degree has measureable credentials.
Formal education gives one MEASUREABLE credentials upon which to ply thier trade. I would prefer someone who has served a practical apprenticeship and is a guild member!
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almostfreebird wrote:thar wrote:
Li, Jiacheng; Saha, Sayoni; Fannjiang, Clara Louisa; Li, Jack Zhihao; Yao, Leon; Lehmann, Meredith Paloma; Pan, Jin; Zhang, Alissa Yuan; Yu, Zizi; Patel, Neel S.; Chen, Sitan; Kalinich, Adam Orval; Cotler, Jordan Saul; Fein, Eric Edgar; Prabhu, Anirudh; Koehler, Frederic; He, Xiaoyu; Ding, Fengning; Jena, Siddhartha Gautama; He, Philip Cody; Tumma, Nithin Reddy; Chen, Evan Matthew; Kim, EunBe; Goldman, Danielle; Kim, Savina Dine; Sato, Anna; Juliana Mathea; Mehta, Neil Kamlesh; Wang, Angela; Fan, Huihui; Yen, Mimi; Davis, Rachel Michelle; Van Doren, Benjamin Mark; Bechtel, Marian Joan; Carsch, Kurtis Mickel; Chyao, Amy Cindy; Quintero, Oliver Adolfo; Dyckovsky, Ari Misha; Sushko, Andrey;
I recognized one name as Japanese: Anna Sato I could recognize 6 Indian names: Saha, Sayoni,Siddhartha Gautama, Nithin Reddy, Prabhu, Anirudh, Mehta, Neil Kamlesh, Patel, Neel S. I agree with what percivalpecksniff wrote: "If you decide, Chopperpilot, to pursue academic studies then be a questioner and do not be afraid to be unpopular. Being off-centre can lead to greater learning. Stop the train sometimes and get off." ..sound advice!
I tore myself from the safe comfort of certainties through my love for truth; and truth rewarded me ~ Simone De Beauvoir
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School education is simply a first step in educational life.
How many students really needed algebra?
What was served by naming all of Henrys wives.?
What does it matter if tanzlukigestizan is in Ireland or Russia?
After the music lessons, how many opera singers were produced.
What matters is the level of achievement that was attained at school, and how good the child was at memorising all the unneeded garbage taught?
The main thing was, if he/she got very good marks for all the subjects, then he/she proved the capability was there, that is what employers want and need, something with a strong foundation on which to build a strong future.
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One last thought - education is a privilege to be treasured.
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Hope you said: One last thought - education is a privilege to be treasured.Unquote
Life- long education is a joyful pursuit, why be left standing or stagnating in a formal education
Thar you said: I would prefer someone who has served a practical apprenticeship and is a guild member!
Me too….now 50 well spent years of practical experience is worth a lot more than a few years formal education
Richsap you said: Ask yourself a question: If you had to take your car to a shop to be fixed, would you rather have it fixed by someone with 50 years of experience with cars or by someone with a degree in automotive technology? Obviously either one can fix your car equally well, but the one with the degree has measureable credentials.
Formal education gives one MEASUREABLE credentials upon which to ply thier trade.
Is not 50 years practical experience measurable? You can only teach a person so much theory before the practical side takes over.
'Do not argue with a fool, even if he pesters you to engage with him.'
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Pps,
Exactly my point! Only you said it PITHILY (NB Clubfav).
I took many paragraphs to say what you said in one sentence. Well done.
Quote: Hope1
The subject is only the tool. The real learning is that you now know how to tackle problems. You will know how to understand, then remember, then apply, and then create new ideas from that.
Quote: Percival
Formal education gives one MEASUREABLE (sic) credentials upon which to ply thier (sic) trade.
Apprenticeship and guild member implies formal education to me.
A formal education is only the beginning. If I gave any indication I thought otherwise, I did not mean it. I am on this forum because I am curious and like to learn. Just 15 years go I taught myself to type so I could use a computer. But I had to take courses in such programs as Excel in Microsoft Office to be able to use those programs comprehensively. (I forgot wht I don't use, but I can understand it when I look it up.) We took several courses from Apple to learn about using the iPad. My grandchildren are still giving me tips! (Anything past turning on a light bulb gives me problems.) :-)
As for the choice of whom to work on my car? I pick the one with only 5 years experience AND credentials. She has learned formally, is up to date, and has some field experience. I do not want the neighbor who worked on my car years ago to be working on the electronics in cars nowadays. Besides, the original mechanic had to learn at first too.
(I have found that to be particularly true with some doctors! Not just out if school, but up to date.)
We have not heard from Chopperpilot. ???
I am sure he wanted commiseration, but from every post here it is apparent that formal education in a variety of subjects is valued so you can think for yourself and continue learning even after you are plying your trade.
These posts are the voices of experience.
Good luck.
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Great thoughts, it does seem meaningless to take courses that dont make sense but yet you are all in a way right i could say. I have been reading everything that was said all day and in a strange way it all makes sense. It is free education and I probably should take advantage of that opportunity more than I have been. However, I have been working towards this career my entire life and its almost like a step backwards when I have to take courses to re-learn all of the basic skills that I need.
"Men become wise just as they become rich, more by what they save than by what they receive." Wilbur Wright(April 16, 1867 – May 30, 1912)
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Learning anything (that may seem irrelevant to you), shows you have self discipline. Learning a language, especially, requires perseverence, determination, and hard-work. Why shouldn't an auto-mechanic have these qualities?
If you were selecting a new employee from applicants, who in all respects appear equal, but one had learned to play the piano in their own free time, who would you choose?
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JamesIsobel wrote:
What matters is the level of achievement that was attained at school, and how good the child was at memorising all the unneeded garbage taught?
The main thing was, if he/she got very good marks for all the subjects, then he/she proved the capability was there, that is what employers want and need, something with a strong foundation on which to build a strong future.
I think what really matters is whether one learns how to learn. The important things to learn are not so much the facts — these change as better evidence emerges over time — but rather the appropriate methodologies for acquiring and verifying information within the various disciplines. 
Sed quis custodiet ipsos custodes? - Juvenal
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As an example to piggyback on what Leon just said:
If you learn (or memorize a series of facts about any branch of science) you may have a grasp on current theory, the world view that collective disciplines provide at the moment in time when you were taught. In this case, you are being given information by an expert: a teacher or instructor. (give me a fish, I eat for a day).
Much more valuable:
If you learn the scientific method, you will be capable of assessing and integrating information as knowledge grows and changes, and you'll be able to do this for yourself. (Teach me to fish, and I'll never go hungry again).
You'll also know a charlatan when you encounter one.
"Be without fear in the face of your enemies. Be brave and upright that God may love thee. Speak the truth always, even if it leads to your death. Safeguard the helpless, and do no wrong". (Knight's Oath, Kingdom of Heaven)
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Quote:You'll also know a charlatan when you encounter one. not always HWNN1961 - some of us are a bit thick and too trusting, but learning as fast as we can !!!
"you are younger today than you ever will be again - make use of it for the sake of tomorrow"
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tootsie wrote:Quote:You'll also know a charlatan when you encounter one. not always HWNN1961 - some of us are a bit thick and too trusting, but learning as fast as we can !!! It conjures up "It's me" fraud. Among many kinds of scams, it is one of the most shameful thing to do. http://www.japanfortheuninvited.com/articles/ore-ore-sagi.html
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@Tootsie, I've read enough of your posts on this Forum to know that you are anything but thick.
@freebird, that is the most nefarious of schemes: preying on the elderly. It's shameful anywhere, but it must be especially frowned upon in the Japanese culture. If I recall correctly, elders are respected, at least in traditional Japanese upbringing.
"Be without fear in the face of your enemies. Be brave and upright that God may love thee. Speak the truth always, even if it leads to your death. Safeguard the helpless, and do no wrong". (Knight's Oath, Kingdom of Heaven)
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I,instead of trying to focus on my study in school, have begun working in my spare time. I am currently rebuilding a 1968 Chevrolet Chevelle SS. I am doing this, not only to have the car but to help me expand my knowledge. With access to a full auto-body and paint shop I have been working alongside my very good friend who I am planning on going into business with and his uncle who does exactly what we want to do. He has been teaching us the trade and we will be working every weekend toward this goal. 
"Men become wise just as they become rich, more by what they save than by what they receive." Wilbur Wright(April 16, 1867 – May 30, 1912)
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Way to go, Chopper. You will go far! You already know how to think outside the box and solve problems!
Great solution. I am glad you plan to continue to pursue the formal qualifications as well.
It was nice to get your feedback.
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 Is this the car you refer to Chopperpilot?
From your posts I would say you know exactly where you are going and wish you well. Your sort are greatly needed nowadays.
PS: If that guy is teaching you the trade it would not hurt to go for the papers as well... yes you can manage without them, but you never know when they may be germane to your life. They could mean the differnce between work or no work given certain situations.
'Do not argue with a fool, even if he pesters you to engage with him.'
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Rank: Advanced Member
Joined: 12/2/2009
Posts: 211
Points: 658
Location: Eastern North Carolina, United States
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The one I refer to is one model year newer. Like this one. Not much of a difference but it is enough to notice.  Once I am finished, I will have enough break HP and torque to bring the front tires off the ground when I press the throttle
"Men become wise just as they become rich, more by what they save than by what they receive." Wilbur Wright(April 16, 1867 – May 30, 1912)
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Rank: Advanced Member
Joined: 12/2/2009
Posts: 211
Points: 658
Location: Eastern North Carolina, United States
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