Educated people around the world are not, for the most part, naive. However SOME seemingly educated people are naive enough to think they are. The designers are Dutch, and they themselves admit they thought of 9/11 while they were creating the design.

Here is an excerpt from a story on theblaze.com


"The Weekly Standard (via Drudge Report) reports that even though the design firm said evoking 9/11 “was not our intention”, it may have been thought about more than it is being let on. Written in Dutch in the newspaper Algemeen Dagblad, the Weekly Standard reports Jan Knikker of MVRDV saying “I have to admit that we also thought of the 9/11 attacks.” The Weekly Standard also points out that the design for these residential buildings was created by Daniel Libeskind, who designed the original “master plan” for the reconstruction of Ground Zero."

---

Everyone thinks of changing the world, but no one thinks of changing himself. Leo Tolstoy

Some years ago in a political discussion forum I was following the debate on the question 'whether the US should apologise for atomic war on Japan or not?' I came to realise the situation inwhich the US had to nuke Japan. Mainly throughout the debate the Pearl Harbor case justified all that inhuman act.

=
If we inavitably asume that the buildings are purposefuly designed to tease Americans and they are simble of hatred to America; WHAT justifys that hatred?

---

*It's wonderful to know that all languages are Greek if not understood.*

Maggie - are you being serious?

What was tasteless about my remark? The act itself was tasteless, however. Are you suggesting that envy of the United States does not exist? If you have a better idea as to WHY, please enlighten us. Like it or not, there are many people across this planet who are envious of the way of life in the United States. We have freedom of speech that does not exist in many countries, especially those nations who supported the 9/11 terrorist attack. We have a standard of living that does not exist for most of these same people. We have religious freedoms that do not exist in large portions of the world. Envy is WITHOUT QUESTION one possibility.

---

"The nearest thing to eternal life we will ever see on this earth is a government program." - Ronald Reagan

Maggie said "If you have a better idea as to WHY, please enlighten us."

That's what I have been trying to do: I really CAN'T understand why, when the idea of a reason that is niether combatative, prejudiced nor judgemental exists, it would rejected it without due consideration?

As to giving "Envy" as a reason? Well, most population groups think their country is the best. It's human nature. But it seems a little naive to imagine that everyone else thinks that one's particular patch is the best, too. The reasons you give for people 'envying' your home would not stand up to scrutiny:... for a start the US is the only first world country that bans books so freedom of speech cannot be said to be unconditional.

Without getting into a fruitless "My country's better than your country" discussion, I think you are forgetting that Nationalism is not an American construct. It's been the cause of war for thousands of years and will be what motivates soldiers for as long as humanity lives, I would guess. It'd be great if everyone would throw down their weapons and say "Hey, your country's a lot better than mine, let's stop fighting." but, of course, its not going to happen.

After WW2 I believe that many of the countries in war-torn Europe DID look longingly at America who, rather than having to engage in the reconstruction of their entire country, and continued Rationing, and the crippling loss of property, infrastructures, business, homes etc. could embark upon a programme of extending existing infrastructure and of growth.

While your loyalty and patriotism is admirable however, there has been quite a shift, and modern-day America showcases a lot of things that others find disquietening.(As do many places: I'm not trying to rubbish your country - just pointing out that the world changes.)

I entered this thread trying to communicate with those who felt that they had been dealt a deliberate slur, that perhaps they hadn't realised quite how different were the mores of East and West. It's a little strange to consider that there is a train of thought that would rather see discord and slights though than to consider the possibility of an alternative world view.

When I saw that wasn't working I was going to stop posting (and should have, I guess), but 'envy' being the predominant motivation behind a disparate group of foreign architects and Korean inhabitants putting up a building in one of the most forward-looking and modern cities in the world, just shocked me. And yes, to be honest, I do find it a teensy bit insulting to everyone else on this forum who also loves their country and is sure, in their secret heart of hearts, that THEIRS - wherever it may be - is the one place most people in the rest of the world consider the most important.

Maggie - "I understand that cultures are different, but those differences do not account for every insult, every iniquity that man does to man."

Ah=hah! Well finally we've found a statement with which both of us can agree.
(Mind you, I'd also include the iniquities performed by women!)

Maggie, that mental picture: "PLANES-EMBEDDED-IN-BUILDINGS' WITH SMOKE BILLOWING OUT" of a single incident has taken many, many thousands lives of men and women here not there in N Korea. I think such mental pictures shouldn't that fierce.

---

*It's wonderful to know that all languages are Greek if not understood.*

With my (now) penultimate post I was just going to retire from the fray because, while I understand completely what you're saying, it seemed like a lost cause as long as you had, as you explained, 'rejected' an alternative viewpoint. Not much of a one for lost causes, me!

But then I read another post of yours in another thread which said you enjoy discussions as long as they don't degenerate into the personal - and I think we are both unlikely to do that so, because I also love a good discussion I'm going to express myself again.

Both you and another poster - and no doubt millions of other people - have referred to 9/11 as being the precursor to "Global Terrorism". This, if I understand correctly, is why you find it hard to believe that images of that period are not culturally influenced but have the same interpretations worldwide?

However, terrorism has been a global construct for decades i.e. it has caused horror, destruction, death, hatred and division throughout the world since long before the beginning of this millenium. My own children, for example, grew up in a country where public rubbish bins were removed because they were a favourite repository for terrorist bombs. They had also never set foot in a certain fast-food franchise as it, too, was a favourite target - working on the assumption that children were soft targets whose deaths sowed the most terror.

The citizens of England and Ireland too throughout the last century, experienced, as well as two world wars, terrorist attacks from which certain images are seared into the mind forever. The same can be said for India, Pakistan, Spain, Germany etc. etc. etc.

The political repecussions of 9/11 are not the point here: it wasn't the President, Government or military who designed the building in question. The objection is based on the fact that 'everyone' i.e. we, the people, sees this image with exactly the same cultural underpinnings: a life-changing event.

That's why I have tried to point out the different cultural assumptions which simply CAN'T be dismissed - they are absolutely key in this particular case.

And now for something completely different: "I see you're still hung up on P.C." (Sorry, the smiley-face which robbed the statement of any sting, did not reproduce).

This brought me up with a jerk. I'd never before actually considered non-gendered language as being "PC". It has always been, to me, an example of the evolution of language...though, thinking about it, I can see how this does, in fact, mirror the political changes of societies which reject paternalism. ("The personal is the political"?)

As you may have picked up on in other posts of mine - if you have come across any - as a writer, academic, lecturer, public speaker and now teacher, my income comes from the use of the English language. What this also entails is a battery of editors, proof-readers, Thesis Advisors and peers scrutinising that use constantly. (Yeah, yeah, hard to believe from the evidence provided by my posts on this Forum!). At no time since I started has gendered language been acceptable in my work. Therefore to me, its not the norm. In fact it has only been here, on TFD, that I have realised that it is still an issue with many people - hence the occasional teasing. It's only when I see (what are, to me, anyway) strange collocations, that I give it any thought. But being thought "PC"? You have no idea how that struck me!!

PS "every iniquity that man does to man."? I would think - and therefore express - this as "every iniquity of humanity" or "every iniquity we visit upon one another."

This thread has moved on, and I have missed the flow ... but I did spot something that made me laugh. That was Maggie's assertion that other nationalities are envious of N. America.
Maggie, you should get out more. (out of America, that is.) The truth might hurt.

I should say that a lot of people probably would like to live in the US, and why not, it seems to me a very fine place to live, but with regard to Maggie's diagram you have to keep in mind that the mere geographical size of the US must make a difference. For instance, when I ask people whether they'd like to live in Wisconsin fewer people would answer yes than if I were to ask them whether they'd like to live in the US and relatively fewer still than if I were to ask them whether they'd like to live in (on?) the Northern hemisphere.

---

The opposite of hatred is love; the opposite of tyranny is love; the opposite of censorship is love; the opposite of evil is love; the opposite of politics is love; the opposite of war is love; the opposite of god is love.–– Salman Rushdie
Broadly speaking, it is held that getting money is good and spending money is bad. Seeing that they are two sides of one transaction, this is absurd; one might as well maintain that keys are good, but keyholes are bad. Whatever merit there may be in the production of goods must be entirely derivative from the advantage to be obtained by consuming them. –Bertrand Russell
Never believe a liar. Papa, angry people burn our home.

Living in a country that is not your country of birth is more than having a liking for that country’s landscape. It is finding the climate and diet agreeable, the sense of security acceptable, and above all, being able to share the attitudes of the indiginous people.
I agree that large swathes of the North American continent have great beauty, and the climate is excellent, but at this point I have to put the brakes on my enthusiasm.

Security is a whole different matter, and gun control is out of this topic, but regarding attitudes, I will simply highlight the recent case of the marines who showed they hadn’t been potty trained. Maybe this event, probably insignificant to many--just as the Twin Towers was insignificant to whole populations, was as much of an American tragedy as the Twin Towers.

Americans have achieved many great things, but they would do well to show less arrogance to the world, because arrogance breeds resentment.

I find this gener of feeling in online debates when you have to defend your "knee-jerk" statement in all cost. Yeah, first hand experienca.

---

*It's wonderful to know that all languages are Greek if not understood.*

That's an interesting site and I noticed its url is http://www.bakadesuyo.com.

Bakadesuyo is Japanese, kind of polite way of saying "(I am/you are/he is/she is/etc is) a fool".

Baka means fool/moron/idiot, and Barker sounds just like it, he knows how to joke in Japanese.

Well I have stayed in the US a few times; Atlanta(Georgia), Edwardsville(Illinois), Fort Lee(New Jersey).

http://forum.thefreedictionary.com/postst16833_hey-man--hey-dude--yo--hola.aspx

---

*It's wonderful to know that all languages are Greek if not understood.*