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I found your comments thoughtful Marissa, but I see no reason... if the Higgs Field Particle exists why it could not eminate from the First Cause.
I would not concern yourself with being on the wrong thread... the subject is still science even if one brings god into it, or a first cause. Our comments will be moved if that is the right thing to do, and that does not matter to me.
For me I am happy to live with hope, and would hate a life without it. Gladly I feel my hope is well-founded, and the more I hear the more convinced I become.
We are all subjected to futility... we die and are born to die... but it is better to subjected to futility on the basis of hope.
It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it. Aristotle
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I'm not exactly sure what you mean Percival by this part of your first sentence:
'if the Higgs Field Particle exists why it could not eminate from the First Cause.'
I think that it can. I am only saying that if you mean 'God' by 'First Cause', that God had to have always been, because God could not have come out of nothing. So if God exists, God always was. And it is from God that all things came, including the the god particle. If one says that God came from something, one cannot say that God is God.
But if one believes in evolution, one has to arrive at the same conclusion, that the substance of the universe from which all things are made has always existed as well. Because with out something having always to have existed, one can spend the rest of his or her days working backwards seeking a first cause. One will never arrive at a first cause unless it has always been.
In either case, God has always existed, or, the universe (all that is) has always existed. So the 'god particle' whether it emanates from God, or whether it has always existed in some form came from something...Unless science is saying the god particle is 'God', and from this 'God Particle' all things were made, and thus has solved the question of God how the universe was made. If not, the god particle as wondrous as it might be, as perhaps being a key--or even the key that unlocks the understanding of how the universe works...it still came from something and does not answer the question of how this world has come to be.
I agree with you about living with the hope that there is something more than just the endless cycle of death and rebirth. I think living just to die is not rational and is as hard to comprehend as something existing with out beginning or end. Unless in our eternal circle of life and death we as human beings retain our consciousness of who we are. The process of living and dying must have a meaning that is personal--not just how the world works.
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Marissa -
As has been pointed out, this "God Particle" business is just a journalistic tag. (Isn't it insulting that some journalists think their readers are such muppets that they (the journos) have to sensationalise things to trick people into reading things they have decided are above our level of comprehension!!)
Anyway, I think what Gab and the others are so exulted about is not finding THE answer, but finding one more answer.
Of course people have been asking the "Where did it all start?" question for eons, but it has only been relatively recently that Science has been able to posit some theories that are based upon...well..Science. And Mathematics.The research which turned up DNA and String Theory and all mind-boggling possibilities exposed through quantum physics is the same research which has led to us being able to isolate and/or manipulate DNA and perform micro-surgery. So it's not all just egg-heads in labs. blowing things up.
And remember that it has only been within the last 60 years (I think?) that the Expanding Universe Theory stopped being a theory. But of course, with the vast new field of quantum physics, we have realised just how wondrous and infinitely more complex our world is than we had previously thought. So getting to grips with I guess what you call "The chicken and the egg" story is an arduous process which has turned up so much knowledge along the way that was never dreamed of even 50 years ago.
This particular piece of the puzzle of course is not the end of the story and no scientist regards it as such. It IS, however, proof that the research is going in the right direction, that the behaviours of certain newly-discovered particles obey certain laws and that logic (and mathematics) have led us int yet another area of discovery.
Another thing which I find worthy of rejoicing about this is that there is so much more inter-disciplinary work now going on. For many years the seperation of Physicists work from Astronomers work, from Biologists work etc. has led to the most frustrating gaps, holes and delays in the story of the progress of scientific inquiry over the last 200 years. At last, it seems to me, we are beginning to realise how everything is interconnected and fits in so seamlessly to everything else.
Apart from the ridiculous name some journo came up with over an extra pint in his lunch-hour, this discovery is staggering on many levels: it is awe inspiring whether one is a Fundamentalist, a Muslim, a Buddhist or a Rastafarian. There is absolutely no reason for any sides to be taken between believers and non-believers of religions.
The other staggering thing is how many Giants shoulders had to be stood upon before we got even this far. A truly great and humbling achievement. And the Big Bang idea has just taken another turn. Amazing!
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The Big Bang Theory has lost its appeal nowdays, and many scientists no longer advocate that model.
What is almost fact today, is abandoned tomorrow it seems. It is interesting to note that the great geneticist, Francis Collins, who oversaw the Human Genome project became a believer in God as a result. I have read his book 'The Language of God'
It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it. Aristotle
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percivalpecksniff wrote:The Big Bang Theory has lost its appeal nowdays, and many scientists no longer advocate that model.
What is almost fact today, is abandoned tomorrow it seems. It is interesting to note that the great geneticist, Francis Collins, who oversaw the Human Genome project became a believer in God as a result. I have read his book 'The Language of God'
Says who? If this was meant to be a scientific discussion it'd be highly appreciated if you could offer some facts instead of hearsay and "almost facts". And may I ask, what has great geneticist Francis Collins to do with the Big Band theory?
I don't know half of you half as well as I should like; and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve.
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Marissa and Romany,
I loved both of your posts. Marissa has put into words a dilemma I had for years. Except I stopped 'sweating it' years ago. (I have had a lot of health problems over the years and I even stopped asking 'Why me?' a long time ago too. There really are no answers. Except - Why not me? And that is a question too.)
Although I have watched a few nature shows, I really do not know much about what is going on in science these days. But it seems to me that Romany has a sensible outlook about what is happening in science nowadays.
Mankind has an intrinsic need to feel secure in an insecure world. So if any religion or theory helps one to get through the night, why not?
Since my brain can not fathom the answer to what Marissa has said, I have decided to wait and see what happens. I will find out soon enough, probably too soon. Unless these young wonderful scientific brains come up with some answers in a hurry. :-)
I read this recently - would you rather believe in a God and find out there is not one, or not believe and find out there is?
Every man has a right to his opinion, but no man has a right to be wrong in his facts. Bernard M. Baruch 1870-1965
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JJ Who said Francis Collins had anything to do with the big bang theory?
There are currently at least two Big Bang theories and as I understand, and according to a scientist the other day on the BBC, the idea has been abandoned by many scientists... why not do your own research if you really want to check it out. Peace.
Lets try to be more polite to each other please.
It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it. Aristotle
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percivalpecksniff wrote:JJ I think you nshould calm down and get control of yourself and stop being offensive. Let's try reason shall we.
Who said Francis Collins had anything to do with the big bang theory... I realise English is not your language so perhaps there is a problem here. I do sometinmes have a job understanding you...never mind .
their are currently at least two Big Bang theories and as i understand the idea ihas been abandoned by many scientists... do your research if you really ewant to check it out. Peace Offensive? I'm quite able to express myself even with this second language and I'm capable to understand most of the English I read, even Shakespeare, so I don't see any problem, unless there is a problem in understanding. Looking at the spelling and grammar of your comment I have to wonder your doubts of my use of this language.
I don't know half of you half as well as I should like; and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve.
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Typos JJ merely typos. Still if it makes you happy.
It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it. Aristotle
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I'm not talking about the typos, I have a good reason to expect some understanding from a person like you. You apparently don't expect much because I'm just a second language speaker.
Your typos won't make me happy, they just give some light to the disdain you have shown.
I don't know half of you half as well as I should like; and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve.
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percivalpecksniff originally wrote:JJ I think you nshould calm down and get control of yourself and stop being offensive. Let's try reason shall we.
Who said Francis Collins had anything to do with the big bang theory... I realise English is not your language so perhaps there is a problem here. I do sometinmes have a job understanding you...never mind .
their are currently at least two Big Bang theories and as i understand the idea ihas been abandoned by many scientists... do your research if you really ewant to check it out. Peace [/size] How about some honesty, Peter? Unless you can enlighten us otherwise, Peter, there are no current cosmological models of weight that don't include the Big Bang. Francis Collins is off topic (even if it were on topic it would fall foul of several logical fallacies). percivalpecksniff, back peddling like crazy, wrote: JJ Who said Francis Collins had anything to do with the big bang theory?
There are currently at least two Big Bang theories and as I understand, and according to a scientist the other day on the BBC, the idea has been abandoned by many scientists... why not do your own research if you really want to check it out. Peace. You implied Francis Collins had something to do with the Big Bang theory, when you used him to make a point (so called) about the Big Bang theory. Which BBC programme, the other day, claimed the Big Bang theory has been abandoned by many scientists? percivalpecksniff wrote:Lets try to be more polite to each other please. Peter, really?
Arguing with a creationist is like playing chess with a pigeon. It'll knock over the pieces, crap on the board, and fly back to it's flock to claim victory.
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Sorry Will, but it is best we avoid each other. Be good.
It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it. Aristotle
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PPS,
is there any chance you could show any respect to other folks here?
I don't know half of you half as well as I should like; and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve.
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Ok JJ perhaps we got off on the wrong foot. You will notice I had second thoughts about my comments on your English language abilities and deleted it, so I apologise for offence given and we can just agree to disagree on the creation/creator/evolution thing.
For the record, you do better than me since I speak only one language.
As to my showing respect to others I think I try to do that, but it is hard when one is under attack so much.
It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it. Aristotle
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You are not attached, Percy.
And the question of speaking more than one language is not THE question.
I don't know half of you half as well as I should like; and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve.
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Do I detect a little too much testosterone here? Be nice.
We WERE having a nice discussion here and the latest posts have nothing to with either science or religion!
So, Merry Christmas, one and all.
Every man has a right to his opinion, but no man has a right to be wrong in his facts. Bernard M. Baruch 1870-1965
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Hope - I think one of the most readable books around right now for those who don't have a science background but want to get an idea of what's going on is Bill Bryson's "A Short History of Nearly Everything." If you come across it anywhere do grab it.
The Steven Hawkins DVDs "Universe" and "The Answer to Everything" are also downloadable on btjunkie and give the lay person some idea of what's been learned in the past few decades. Mind-blowing by anyone's standards!
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Thanks, Romany.
I have copied your post into 'Pages' for later perusal.
Every man has a right to his opinion, but no man has a right to be wrong in his facts. Bernard M. Baruch 1870-1965
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if anyone interested, a BBC radio programme coming up. After it airs it will be available on the internet. I think it is supposed to be more on the scientist than the science, but I am sure he gets some time to say why he does what he does: The Life Scientific Tejinder Virdee Tomorrow, 09:00 on BBC Radio 4 As the search continues for the elusive Higgs boson or "God" particle, Jim al-Khalili talks to CERN physicist, Tejinder Virdee. Tejinder explains why this particle is so fundamental to our understanding of the nature of the universe and describes how, in the early days, a handful of committed scientists and politicians pushed Europe to create one of the most complex machines ever made, the Large Hadron Collider. The life scientificI have just been sent a link to this so I am posting it now while I have the details. If you are interested you will have to wait till it airs or goes online. Assuming time is actually real and you have not already listened to it in another dimension.
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Thanks for the tip. Here is a link to a list of all the programs currently available from BBC Radio 4: http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b015sqc7/episodes/playerMany of them are only available for a limited time outside of the UK. I have followed several of Jim al-Khalili's series before, and they are indeed more focussed on the scientists themselves than deeply technical discussions. Yet the programs are not so much about personalities as they are about the sort of work and planning that goes into actually doing science. I highly recommend them.
"Sometimes I sits and thinks, and sometimes I just sits." - Satchel Paige
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2 points:
1. There are 2 things that science does, i) it always tries to find the cause of an event, keep in mind that the cause itself is an event, thus going down into the abyss of 'cause', ii) applies the acquired knowledge and conceptions to conduct events to get the desired outcome. The deeper science digs, the wider is the range of its application. So, as there is no end of search of 'causes', rejecting the search for causes is limiting the field of application. It is lazy thinking to terminate the search of causes with a God.
2. The question of priority. I agree, needs of the masses should be the priority. Is this experiment among the most pressing current needs of the masses? Of course not. But there is hardly any government expenditure that answers the needs of the masses and it's not like if the money weren't spent on this experiment it would be used in that(rather, one fears the opposite). There are extravagant useless and even harmful spendings happening all the time, so the outrage at this experiment deeply lacks balance and this outrage, as it seems, is more a reaction of fear than of genuine concern for the people, because God resides in the space of the unknown and it's getting smaller every day.
In this world there is no literate population that is poor and no illiterate population that is other than poor. - J.K.Galbraith
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