Wake up, jacobus,
you ain't living in Paradise, yet,
I hope.

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I don't know half of you half as well as I should like; and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve.

I think I have a pretty good handle on the concept. Was there a particular interpretation you were thinking would be of value, or some specific person's work you were considering? Reading up on a topic in general is a rather broad mandate....

I'm starting to get turned around on this issue. I was one of the earlier folks on this topic to chime in with an argument that Breivik's claims to Christian doctrine were not legit, but these subsequent posts and their claims at divine mandate and perfection itself are making me rethink that position.

When John Hinkley shot Ronald Reagan in order to impress Jodie Foster I figured that someone so completely off kilter as to connect the one with the other was deranged enough that one couldn't take his claims of motivation seriously. The "motivation" claimed was really just itself a symptom of the real cause. In a like manner, I gave very little credence to the connection between this more recent killer to the doctrine he claims inspired him. Blaming Christian fundamentalism for Breivik would be like blaming Jodie Foster for the attempt on Reagan's life.

But now I'm beginning to wonder about the difference between someone with a disordered mind and an actual doctrine that seems so pat and unassailable in the minds of people who refuse to question it, even in the face of a direct refutation. The former would be more likely to disassociate from reality, wouldn't he? He'd be clearly deranged. Conversly, would someone who had embraced a fallacious argument, but refused to address the argument itself actually be disordered in the same way? After all, how many steps are there between claiming to have been chosen by God and assuming that God has a special mission for the person supposedly chosen? However, such a person would be consistent in their general behavior, right?

I should be clear, I'm NOT suggesting jacobusmaximus is going to do anything of the sort. His arguments (I'm assuming the gender from the handle) clearly avoid violence. But were the arguments made only slightly altered, it seems very easy to see how someone might go that route. Not in every case, and in every particular, of course, but it does seem like a closed, circular doctrine could provide an easier route to that particular end than simply being crazy. I don't have the brain of a killer (at the moment...) but I imagine there are a lot of mental gymnastics one has to go through in order to believe that killing the POtUS would get you a celebrity girlfriend. If one thinks one has a mandate from Heaven, is the mental effort needed to get to a similarly disassociated position as difficult?

An interesting thing to bring up at my little dinner party this weekend. Hopefully, it won't put anyone off their tacos.

As a Christian I am alarmed and ashamed that one who profess Christianity would do such a thing as this man. I'm not surprised though.
Romans 3: 23 We are all infected and impure with sin. When we display our righteous deeds, . . . Like autumn leaves, we wither and fall, and our sins sweep us away like the wind.


I think that the knowledge and guilt that some people have gets all mixed up and they try to find a way to blame other people.

Proverbs 28:13 People who conceal their sins will not prosper, but if they confess and turn them, they will receive mercy.


Another thing that happens is that people think they can't be forgiven, but God forgives us.

I John 1:9 But if we confess our sins to him, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all wickedness.


We are also supposed to be forgiving of others.

Matthew 18:23-35
New International Version (NIV)
23 “Therefore, the kingdom of heaven is like a king who wanted to settle accounts with his servants. 24 As he began the settlement, a man who owed him ten thousand bags of gold was brought to him. 25 Since he was not able to pay, the master ordered that he and his wife and his children and all that he had be sold to repay the debt.

26 “At this the servant fell on his knees before him. ‘Be patient with me,’ he begged, ‘and I will pay back everything.’ 27 The servant’s master took pity on him, canceled the debt and let him go.

28 “But when that servant went out, he found one of his fellow servants who owed him a hundred silver coins. He grabbed him and began to choke him. ‘Pay back what you owe me!’ he demanded.

29 “His fellow servant fell to his knees and begged him, ‘Be patient with me, and I will pay it back.’

30 “But he refused. Instead, he went off and had the man thrown into prison until he could pay the debt. 31 When the other servants saw what had happened, they were outraged and went and told their master everything that had happened.

32 “Then the master called the servant in. ‘You wicked servant,’ he said, ‘I canceled all that debt of yours because you begged me to. 33 Shouldn’t you have had mercy on your fellow servant just as I had on you?’ 34 In anger his master handed him over to the jailers to be tortured, until he should pay back all he owed.

35 “This is how my heavenly Father will treat each of you unless you forgive your brother or sister from your heart.”

Then in Luke.

27 “But to you who are listening I say: Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, 28 bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you. 29 If someone slaps you on one cheek, turn to them the other also. If someone takes your coat, do not withhold your shirt from them. 30 Give to everyone who asks you, and if anyone takes what belongs to you, do not demand it back. 31 Do to others as you would have them do to you.
32 “If you love those who love you, what credit is that to you? Even sinners love those who love them. 33 And if you do good to those who are good to you, what credit is that to you? Even sinners do that. 34 And if you lend to those from whom you expect repayment, what credit is that to you? Even sinners lend to sinners, expecting to be repaid in full. 35 But love your enemies, do good to them, and lend to them without expecting to get anything back. Then your reward will be great, and you will be children of the Most High, because he is kind to the ungrateful and wicked. 36 Be merciful, just as your Father is merciful.


I don't think we get to judge whether he is a Christian or not. I am glad it's not up to me to judge his punishment. I think that those who preach hate should also be aware of this, II Peter 3:16c some things hard to understand, which the untaught and unstable distort, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction. And then in James 3:1 Not many of you should presume to be teachers, my brothers, because you know that we who teach will be judged more strictly.

Whether you are Christian or not I think these are wise sayings.

Breivik himself wrote he turned from moderate christian to agnosticism and back to the former (roughly translated). For me he is 'just' a right extremists following strange ideas that came into his mind fed by right politicians all over the world. Has nothing to do with christianity whatsoever. For me he is plain crazy. As saisd in some sources he took example of the unabomber...

What's even more scary that after 21 years he is a free man again according to Norwegian law. All these years he can use to make a plan similar to what he did before. This one took him like two years "only"...

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Give a man a fish you feed him for a day; teach a man to fish you feed him for a lifetime - Chinese proverb

OK, I've got some cooking to do, so I only have time to respond to this real quickly: you only wrote that people should read up on the subject. There are many books and interpretations on the subject written. Predestination can be temporal, conditional, Calvanist, etc. There are Islamic versions of predestination, interpretations that incorporate Einsteinian physics, etc. It's a very broad and inclusive topic. So, asking people to read up on Biblical predestination is like saying "go read about American Literature and get back to me." Hence, my asking for what in particular you might be referring since I can't really go out and read everything from Moses to Karl Barth for the sake of responding to what now appears to have been a rather off-hand post.... Wouldn't it make more sense for YOU to read up on the subject before suggesting other folks do so?

Lastly, I made an effort to disassociate you from the ideology of a killer. If I hadn't commented that I was NOT saying that you were to be connected with such an ideology, I'm sure you'd be able to make the same claim as you have above. I can only say that if someone is going to parse my comments down to the point that they mean the opposite of what was actually said there's not much I can do than to reiterate that that was not what I wrote, and not my intent.

percival pecksniff says '...If the individuals were predestined to salvation, then they could not possibly fail, regardless of what they did. ( Which is what you imply Jacob)...'

You have got this the wrong way round percivalpecksniff. The Bible plainly teaches that those who are predestined to be in the will of God cannot possibly do what would cause them to fall from grace. Yes, many depart from the faith. Churches today are half empty and people are besotted with all sorts of idols. But those who have turned their backs on God had never surrendered their lives to Jesus in the first place.

Jacobusmaximus and Dreamy you are putting your dogma before what the Bible really says. You both seem to think that you cannot fail...you are on dangerous ground.

Philippians 2:12

King James Version (KJV)

12Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.


Paul plainly says that one has to work out ones salvation...and with fear. Why? Because one can fail. He is addressing annointed first century Christians many of whom would have been at Pentecost and been annointed with the Holy Spirit.

There are countless scriptures that show one can fail and that the false doctrine of once saved always saved
is not supported by scripture.


1 Corinthians 10:12

King James Version (KJV)



12Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall.

You are both putting your own ideas ahead of those of the Creator and have lost all credibility...did not the Pharisees and Sadducees do the same? Were they not self important? One of you even claims to have daily chats with God whereby God audibly speaks to you... and that sometimes when laying in bed. Why one of you even claims to walk with the saints while you both walk in total confidence that you cannot fail! What arrogance!

I will leave you to it, since there is obviously no fear and trembling where you two are concerned.

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It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it. Aristotle

I don't know anyone who claims to have no doubts about God or his plan for us. Living with our doubts strengthens our faith. We are all sinners, saved by the sacrifice of Christ on the Cross. Believing that Biblical fact brings assurance, not boastfulness. If the sacrifice of Christ was not sufficient for believers then we are all lost. If it was sufficient, then those who believe are saved. Believing is the act of continuing in faith.

Fundamentalism is contrary to progress. In his crazy mind Breivick advocates racism and he has proved to be a bigot.

But above it all, he is a mass murderer. Simple as that. He deserves a just punishment.

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Jose