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Pakistani women are being encouraged to have as many babies as possible, despite the fact that many are born into abject poverty, with complete disregard for the population problem, and all because it is the "Will of Allah." In Pakistan, Birth Control And Religion ClashI have known for a long time that Catholic doctrine was guilty of this type of heinous disregard of modern conditions, as well as the underlying strategy of attempting to force their mindset into a majority position, but I was unaware until I heard this broadcast that Muslim teaching was pushing this atrocity as well. I do not see how this can be anything but wrong. I don't understand how anyone doing an objective evaluation of this doctrine misses that the notion coincides with what was, " once upon a time" an co-evolutionarily stable strategy for a particular gene pool, and then go on to insist that the notion of, at least these types of gods, is a good thing. Of course there is also the problem of arguing for the very existence of a god who in its infinite knowledge didn't see this problem coming and make provisions for it in its "holy word." It just doesn't wash, no way, no how. (okay sorry it is hard not to get vehement about this.) ETA "co-evolutionary" Clarification after reading Peter's post.
Question authority, before it questions you. How do you know, that you know, what you know?
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I agree Epi that many religions do urge giving birth to multiple children and as a dogma it often takes
no account of ability to care for them. It should not be anything to do with religious issues.
However it is not as simple or obvious as it seems. In many lands where poverty is endemic, the only
thing families have any real choice in is to have children. They do not see the wider picture and want
sons to work for them... children are their cause for existing and without that they have nothing.
The West has done that and been there, as it has with pollution, and like it does with that subject it
takes the high moral ground over birth control. It want's emerging or developing nations to adopt strict
measures on pollutants and birth control, while not taking into account the fact that these nations are
developing technically.
I do not think it has anything to do with evolution in the developing of life sense, but rather
evolution as a development of society or human arrangment.
It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it. Aristotle
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Infant mortality rate (IMR) indicates the number of deaths of babies under one year of age per 1,000 live births.
The whole world IMR these days is somewhat 45 (UN, medium variant, 2008 rev.)
Angola - 192
Afghanistan - 165
Pakistan - 74
India - 57
China - 25
Developed countries - 3 to 7
Something to think about.
I don't know half of you half as well as I should like; and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve.
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Jyrkkä Jätkä wrote:Infant mortality rate (IMR) indicates the number of deaths of babies under one year of age per 1,000 live births.
The whole world IMR these days is somewhat 45 (UN, medium variant, 2008 rev.)
Angola - 192
Afghanistan - 165
Pakistan - 74
India - 57
China - 25
Developed countries - 3 to 7
Something to think about.
Something indeed to perhaps make we westerners put the issue of children into a perspective. Percival points to one aspect of having children but I don't think his post emphasised the sheer necessity of having children, not only to "run the farm", but (against the high mortality rate for older children), to have a child survive to look after one in one's old age (if you get there). We bemoan the fact that our kids just shove their parents in homes and don't offer some care, but in many countries there are no homes for those who have no surviving kids who have enough resources to take on an aged parent. It is so deeply ingrained culturally. That said, I think the point of Epiphileon's post becomes even more stark because it is only a force as strong as religion which could change this position with any degree of speed. That, to me, makes it a greater betrayal.
"The voice of the majority is no proof of justice." - Schiller
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percivalpecksniff wrote:
However it is not as simple or obvious as it seems. In many lands where poverty is endemic, the only
thing families have any real choice in is to have children. They do not see the wider picture and want
sons to work for them... children are their cause for existing and without that they have nothing.
I am aware of this factor Percival, however what is reported in this story is that there is an additional religious imperative being propagated by the religious authority. The story also points out that the education of women helps to ease this problem but, this too is discouraged by the prevailing religion in the area.
The West has done that and been there, as it has with pollution, and like it does with that subject it
takes the high moral ground over birth control. It want's emerging or developing nations to adopt strict
measures on pollutants and birth control, while not taking into account the fact that these nations are
developing technically.
I do not see The West being in any position to take the moral high ground on this issue, and I don't see that in the reporting of the referenced article. I'm not sure how any of the other countries considered The West, rank on this issue but, I know the U.S. certainly has a poor record on population control, and particularly children being born into abject poverty and hostile environments; however, having as many children as possible is not an imperative impressed upon the women as their divine duty, family planning is actively encouraged, for the most part.
I do not think it has anything to do with evolution in the developing of life sense, but rather
evolution as a development of society or human arrangment.
Yes certainly, and thank you, as you'll note I edited my OP to be more clear on that.
Question authority, before it questions you. How do you know, that you know, what you know?
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Jyrkkä Jätkä wrote:Infant mortality rate (IMR) indicates the number of deaths of babies under one year of age per 1,000 live births.
The whole world IMR these days is somewhat 45 (UN, medium variant, 2008 rev.)
Angola - 192
Afghanistan - 165
Pakistan - 74
India - 57
China - 25
Developed countries - 3 to 7
Something to think about.
Certainly JJ infant mortality plays a big part in reproductive strategies, and these numbers are probably much better than they were 100 years ago. The point of my post is that what was a good idea 1000 years ago, is no longer such a good idea today, and that continuing to rely on ancient texts for the guiding of modern human behavior is dangerous. I further hinted that such strategies may be some indication that the texts really were not written by all knowing, all loving, entities.
Question authority, before it questions you. How do you know, that you know, what you know?
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This must be a serious issue for some humanitarion student or authority but here for ordinary Pakistanis (as you Epi, specifically mentioned) is no longer an issue. The doctrine 'will of Allah' is not really that problematic than other doctrines that I should introduce to you, is that the choice of having more children, or in funny words having your very own small Islamic republic of 7 to 13 children. I have at least 2 uncles having 12 and 13 children from one mothers each had the post modren doctrine of CHOICE. Any way islamic republics are not raising children with speed as much as the nukes are produced in the other corner of the world. After all having nukes would also have a doctrine, wouldn't it?
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Epiphileon wrote:Pakistani women are being encouraged to have as many babies as possible, despite the fact that many are born into abject poverty, with complete disregard for the population problem, and all because it is the "Will of Allah." In Pakistan, Birth Control And Religion ClashI have known for a long time that Catholic doctrine was guilty of this type of heinous disregard of modern conditions, as well as the underlying strategy of attempting to force their mindset into a majority position, but I was unaware until I heard this broadcast that Muslim teaching was pushing this atrocity as well. I do not see how this can be anything but wrong. I don't understand how anyone doing an objective evaluation of this doctrine misses that the notion coincides with what was, " once upon a time" an co-evolutionarily stable strategy for a particular gene pool, and then go on to insist that the notion of, at least these types of gods, is a good thing. Of course there is also the problem of arguing for the very existence of a god who in its infinite knowledge didn't see this problem coming and make provisions for it in its "holy word." It just doesn't wash, no way, no how. (okay sorry it is hard not to get vehement about this.) ETA "co-evolutionary" Clarification after reading Peter's post. I have no reason to defend Catholics or Muslims but I think it is unfair to blame religion for poor family planning. Roman Catholic doctrine on sexual intercourse in marriage wants people, men, mostly, to understand that sex is not a plaything. Nor should it be 'up there with God', as modern TV culture would have us believe. And JJ, we don't need to go back 1,000 years to look at how infant mortality rates influenced reproduction. In the second half of the 19th century my great grandparents had 12 children. Six of then died at hours or weeks old. Several of them from diarrhoea, no doubt caused by the drinking water supply, the source of which was the untreated water of the Forth and Clyde canal which ran through the part of Glasgow where they lived. I have no doubt they would have had fewer children if death had not claimed so many. I can tell you it was not the Church which urged then to have so many babies, but it was the Church (of Scotland) who played such an important role in getting healthier, cleaner living conditions in Glasgow and other overcrowded cities in Scotland. One result of the improving infant mortality rate was that fewer babies were born over the following generations, at least among members and adherents of the national (Reformed) Church.
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Hello Jacob, I would not either make a blanket assignment of culpability on religion for poor family planning; however, anywhere religious practices, such as described in the article are occurring, religion is a large factor. But really I did a rather poor job apparently, of elucidating my point in my original post, my point is that this is but one example, of how relying on religious doctrine to guide modern human behavior is dangerous. It seems to me this is a strikingly obvious example of this danger. The reproductive strategy that Pakistani women are being pressured to practice by their religious leaders is insane, and not only from the perspective of population growth but of women's health as well. Women are being told to be baby factories, and by implication that this is their primary function in life. In the modern world this is not only maladaptive it is unjust. Like I said though this is but one example, there are others. Religion as a political force, or worse as a government. The notion that "Gods will, will be done," or "He's got the whole world in his hands" syndrome*. There are the saved, guided by god, and the damned, who are guided by Satan, in its least malicious form there is still us and them. The expectation of Armageddon, a very dangerous potential self fulfilling prophecy, as well as a very good reason to be not concerned with the long term problems of humanity, also inherent in the *HGWWHH syndrome.
Question authority, before it questions you. How do you know, that you know, what you know?
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According to the Islamic prophecy on the dooms day two third of Muslims would be wiped of the planet before Jesus return and it would be Christians, Hindus, Jews, Budhist and every one embracing Jesus faith and dominating the world with the unanimous faith... Keeping this doctrine in mind Muslims should raise as less children as possible for avoiding the human loss prophessed.
*It's wonderful to know that all languages are Greek if not understood.*
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