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'I owe him money' - 'He is owed money' [Ditransitive verbs (verbs with two objects)] Options
A cooperator
Posted: Sunday, October 6, 2019 9:53:37 PM

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I am only very concerned about and confused between the two underlined noun phrases. That's, why is a passive form used in the relative clause in the first one. However, an active form in the second one.
The word you use for someone that is owed money is the creditor.
The word you use for someone that owes money is the creditor.

If it was written "The word you use for someone that owes money is the debtor.", would it be correct?


Also, why is "owed" not preceded by "with/by"?

Whoever doesn't own what he promises to those who do not deserve must not promise it.
palapaguy
Posted: Monday, October 7, 2019 12:42:52 AM

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A cooperator wrote:
I am only very concerned about and confused between the two underlined noun phrases. That's, why is a passive form used in the relative clause in the first one. However, an active form in the second one.
The word you use for someone that is owed money is the creditor.
The word you use for someone that owes money is the creditor.

If it was written "The word you use for someone that owes money is the debtor.", would it be correct?

Also, why is "owed" not preceded by "with/by"?


The word you use for someone that/who is owed money is the creditor. Correct.

The word you use for someone that/who owes money is the debtor. Correct.

"with/by" would not be correct.

thar
Posted: Monday, October 7, 2019 12:57:08 AM

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Think again about how you have constructed your sentences. They are correct but look at what part is the clause. The part you have underlined does not fit together as one segment of the sentence - it is two different parts.

The term is 'a creditor'.
That answers the question if the definition has already been given.

The term for someone who is owed money is 'a creditor'.
This includes it in a clause, within that core sentence.


The term for someone who is owed money by someone else is 'a creditor'.
This includes more information in the clause
But it is pointless saying that. If you are owed money, it has to be owed by someone else. It is not owed by monkeys or stones. It must be owed by a person. There is no point in adding who the money is owed by, in this simple definition.

The term is 'a debtor'.
The term for someone who owes money is 'a debtor'.
The term for someone who owes money to someone else is 'a debtor'.

Again, the 'to someone else' is not useful - that is already explained when you say they ow money, so there is no point in adding that here.
A cooperator
Posted: Monday, October 7, 2019 8:47:39 PM

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palapaguy wrote:
The word you use for someone that/who is owed money is the creditor. Correct.

The word you use for someone that/who owes money is the debtor. Correct.


Thanks a lot,
Could you please help me make the underlined passive form into the active form:
The word you use for someone that/who is owed money is the creditor.



Whoever doesn't own what he promises to those who do not deserve must not promise it.
palapaguy
Posted: Monday, October 7, 2019 9:04:50 PM

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A cooperator wrote:
palapaguy wrote:
The word you use for someone that/who is owed money is the creditor. Correct.

The word you use for someone that/who owes money is the debtor. Correct.


Thanks a lot,
Could you please help me make the underlined passive form into the active form:
The word you use for someone that/who is owed money is the creditor.



The word you use for someone that/who lends money is the creditor.


Audiendus
Posted: Monday, October 7, 2019 9:24:20 PM
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A cooperator wrote:
The word you use for someone that/who is owed money is the creditor.


The active form using "owe" would be:

The word you use for someone that/who(m) someone owes money is the creditor.

But that is obviously a very awkward sentence!
A cooperator
Posted: Monday, October 7, 2019 9:47:55 PM

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Joined: 10/27/2011
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Location: Seiyun, Hadramawt, Yemen
Audiendus wrote:
A cooperator wrote:
The word you use for someone that/who is owed money is the creditor.


The active form using "owe" would be:

The word you use for someone that/who(m) someone owes money is the creditor.

But that is obviously a very awkward sentence!



Thanks a lot, both of you,
First, as long as:
The creditor is a person to whom a debt/money is owed.
The creditor is a person that/who a debt/money is owed to.
, I think:
The word you use for someone that/who money is owed to is the creditor.
The word you use for someone to whom money is owed is the creditor



Second, "The word you use for someone that/who(m) someone owes money is the creditor."
Isn't the second 'someone' strange because the relative pronoun(that/whom) can be omitted in case it is an object? However, if the relative pronoun was 'who', then we would have two subjects inside the relative clause, 'someone' and 'who'.

If I follow the structure in "A trainee is an official employee of the firm that is being trained to the job he/she was originally hired for.", I will be asking why you did omit the proposition 'to' which should be before 'whom', or in the end of 'relative clause' when the relative pronoun is 'that'/'who':

The word you use for someone that/who is owed to money is the creditor.
The word you use for someone to whom is owed money is the creditor.

The word you use for someone to whom someone owes money is the creditor.
The word you use for someone that/who someone owes to money to is the creditor.

Whoever doesn't own what he promises to those who do not deserve must not promise it.
palapaguy
Posted: Monday, October 7, 2019 11:28:45 PM

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Audiendus wrote:
A cooperator wrote:
The word you use for someone that/who is owed money is the creditor.


The active form using "owe" would be:

The word you use for someone that/who(m) someone owes money is the creditor.

But that is obviously a very awkward sentence!


This is what I tried to avoid in my answer.
Audiendus
Posted: Monday, October 7, 2019 11:54:20 PM
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A cooperator wrote:
Audiendus wrote:
A cooperator wrote:
The word you use for someone that/who is owed money is the creditor.

The active form using "owe" would be:

The word you use for someone that/who(m) someone owes money is the creditor.

But that is obviously a very awkward sentence!

Thanks a lot, both of you,
Isn't the second 'someone' strange, esp, the relative pronoun(that/whom) can be omitted in case it is an object? However, if the relative pronoun was 'who', then we would have two subjects inside the relative clause, 'someone' and 'who'.

If I follow the structure in "A trainee is an official employee of the firm that is being trained to the job he/she was originally hired for.", I will be asking why you did omit the proposition 'to' which should be before 'whom', or after 'that relative clause':
The word you use for someone to whom someone owes money is the creditor.
The word you use for someone that/who someone owes money to is the creditor.


"That/who(m)" in the sentence in bold above is the indirect object. ("Money" is the direct object.) "To whom" can be used as an alternative.

I owe him money.
I owe money to him.

He is the person whom I owe money.
He is the person to whom I owe money.

A cooperator
Posted: Tuesday, October 8, 2019 5:18:06 AM

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Location: Seiyun, Hadramawt, Yemen
Audiendus wrote:
A cooperator wrote:
Audiendus wrote:
A cooperator wrote:
The word you use for someone that/who is owed money is the creditor.

The active form using "owe" would be:

The word you use for someone that/who(m) someone owes money is the creditor.

But that is obviously a very awkward sentence!

Thanks a lot, both of you,
Isn't the second 'someone' strange, esp, the relative pronoun(that/whom) can be omitted in case it is an object? However, if the relative pronoun was 'who', then we would have two subjects inside the relative clause, 'someone' and 'who'.

If I follow the structure in "A trainee is an official employee of the firm that is being trained to the job he/she was originally hired for.", I will be asking why you did omit the proposition 'to' which should be before 'whom', or after 'that relative clause':
The word you use for someone to whom someone owes money is the creditor.
The word you use for someone that/who someone owes money to is the creditor.


"That/who(m)" in the sentence in bold above is the indirect object. ("Money" is the direct object.) "To whom" can be used as an alternative.

I owe him money.
I owe money to him.

He is the person whom I owe money.
He is the person to whom I owe money.



Thanks a lot,
Audiendus,
Could you please confirm these for me:
Active =============================> Passive:
A. I owe him money. => He is owed money [by me].
B. I owe money to him.=> Money is owed to him [by me].

A. He is the person whom I owe money. => He is the person whom is owed money [by me].
B. He is the person to whom I owe money. => He is the person to whom money is owed [by me].

A. He is the person that/who I owe money. => He is the person that/who is owed money [by me].

B. He is the person that/who I owe money to. => He is the person that/who money is owed to [by me].

Whoever doesn't own what he promises to those who do not deserve must not promise it.
Audiendus
Posted: Tuesday, October 8, 2019 11:55:08 PM
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Just one correction:

A cooperator wrote:
Active =============================> Passive:
A. I owe him money. => He is owed money [by me].
B. I owe money to him.=> Money is owed to him [by me].

A. He is the person whom I owe money. => He is the person whom who is owed money [by me].
B. He is the person to whom I owe money. => He is the person to whom money is owed [by me].

A. He is the person that/who I owe money. => He is the person that/who is owed money [by me].

B. He is the person that/who I owe money to. => He is the person that/who money is owed to [by me].

'Whom' can only be used as the object, never the subject.
A cooperator
Posted: Wednesday, October 9, 2019 10:46:55 PM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 10/27/2011
Posts: 3,641
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Location: Seiyun, Hadramawt, Yemen
Audiendus wrote:
Just one correction:

A cooperator wrote:
Active =============================> Passive:
A. I owe him money. => He is owed money [by me].
B. I owe money to him.=> Money is owed to him [by me].

A. He is the person whom I owe money. => He is the person whom who is owed money [by me].
B. He is the person to whom I owe money. => He is the person to whom money is owed [by me].

A. He is the person that/who I owe money. => He is the person that/who is owed money [by me].

B. He is the person that/who I owe money to. => He is the person that/who money is owed to [by me].

'Whom' can only be used as the object, never the subject.


Audiendus, could you please have a look at this thread entitled 'No further details are given medical students about..'[Ditransitive verbs(verbs with two objects)]?


Whoever doesn't own what he promises to those who do not deserve must not promise it.
Audiendus
Posted: Wednesday, October 9, 2019 11:07:56 PM
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A cooperator wrote:
Audiendus, could you please have a look at this thread entitled 'No further details are given medical students about..'[Ditransitive verbs(verbs with two objects)]?

I am sorry, but your latest post in that thread is too long for me to reply to.
A cooperator
Posted: Wednesday, October 9, 2019 11:58:52 PM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 10/27/2011
Posts: 3,641
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Location: Seiyun, Hadramawt, Yemen
Audiendus wrote:
A cooperator wrote:
Audiendus, could you please have a look at this thread entitled 'No further details are given medical students about..'[Ditransitive verbs(verbs with two objects)]?

I am sorry, but your latest post in that thread is too long for me to reply to.


Only two points, which are marked "Second" and "Final" need to be gone into(explained in some detail)
However, the point marked 'First' only needs you to check those eight examples under each structure 'A' and 'B' if they are correct or not. I am quite sure that 90 percent of them are correct. But, I am stumped with the no # 8.

Whoever doesn't own what he promises to those who do not deserve must not promise it.
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