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Debtee Vs. Debtor Options
A cooperator
Posted: Sunday, October 6, 2019 7:01:43 PM

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Location: Seiyun, Hadramawt, Yemen
Hi,
Debtee: a person to whom a debt is owed.
Debtor: One that owes something to another; a person who owes money/ a debt to another.



I was thinking of 'debtee' as 'employee'/'trainee' in the logic of etymology.
However, 'debtor' as 'employer'/'trainer(coach)'.

Whoever doesn't own what he promises to those who do not deserve must not promise it.
thar
Posted: Sunday, October 6, 2019 7:33:05 PM

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I don't think debtee is a common word. It is in the dictionary because it exists somewhere, but maybe that is just because people recently invented it, using the same logic you have.

The word you use for someone that is owed money is the creditor.

Quote:
creditor (n.)
mid-15c., "one to whom any return is due or payable, one to whom money is owed," from Anglo-French creditour, Old French creditor (early 14c.), from Latin creditor "truster; lender," from creditus, past participle of credere "to believe"


Quote:
debtor (n.)
c. 1200, dettur, dettour, "one who owes or is indebted to another for goods, money, or services," from Anglo-French detour, Old French detor and directly from Latin debitor "a debter," from past-participle stem of debere "to owe,"


The word debtee does not appear in two of the online dictionaries I checked with - Cambridge and Oxford, but does appear in Collins. So it is not an old word that has become archaic.
It is a made-up word using the reverse logic of =or/-ee. But it is not what most people would consider a 'real' word, because that already exists - creditor.


Quote:
No exact matches found for "debtee"
Here are the nearest results:

English Dictionary
debt
debt-free
debtor
deb
dee

Don't waste your time on trying to work out the logic because that is what people did when they invented the word in the first place!

And I advise you not to use it, because it makes it look like you don't know the correct word and have mistakenly invented a new one.

A cooperator
Posted: Sunday, October 6, 2019 8:08:13 PM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 10/27/2011
Posts: 3,641
Neurons: 13,816
Location: Seiyun, Hadramawt, Yemen
thar wrote:

Don't waste your time on trying to work out the logic because that is what people did when they invented the word in the first place!

And I advise you not to use it, because it makes it look like you don't know the correct word and have mistakenly invented a new one.



Thanks a lot,
Thar,
First, TFD listed both:
Debtee: a person to whom a debt is owed.
Debtor: One that owes something to another; a person who owes money/ a debt to another.

Second, if "debtee" doesn't exist, and is supposed to be "creditor", then "debtor" is the counterparty.

Final, an hour and a half has gone into this topic following the same logic.
And I am going to collect others to this list below:
I don't know if each column can convey the same based on the logic below. That is,
'Educatee: (plural educatees) Someone who is being educated.'
"Debtee: a person to whom a debt is owed; someone that is owed money.
"Educator : a person who provides instruction or education; a teacher"
"Debtor: One that owes something to another; a person who owes money/ a debt to another"




Whoever doesn't own what he promises to those who do not deserve must not promise it.
taurine
Posted: Monday, October 7, 2019 9:18:41 AM

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Joined: 4/20/2016
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Location: South Dublin, Ireland
If you use the word 'debtee' it indicates that you know more than average person about the matter in question. Especially if you are speaking with economists or lawyers about modelling describing the corporation's capital structure or measuring monetary conditions in the asset markets.

It is not my intention to advise you. Nevertheless, the use of a word 'debtee' can make you look like you not only know the correct word but you know how to speak with people who know about the matter in question.

Sas? Nic. Sassnitz. Rug, ja? Rugen. Telemark in Harzgerode.
thar
Posted: Monday, October 7, 2019 9:37:18 AM

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Joined: 7/8/2010
Posts: 20,433
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My opinion:

Some of those are not words that the average person would consider valid.

The fact is that some words are constructed that way, and some are not. You just have to learn them as you meet them, like any other word.

You cannot take a pattern that occurs in one, or even several examples, and make it a rule that applies to other things just because they look similar. It just doesn't work that way. Sometimes they do fit into that pattern, and sometimes they don't.

It is useful to see the pattern. But it is vital to apply it in the right places. And some of these are the wrong places.


A tip - where there is already a pair of words, there is no need to invent new ones
eg
buyer - seller
debtor - creditor
educator - learner/student
lender - borrower

You are making life too complicated for yourself by continuing to spend your time constructing patterns and applying them too broadly. If you meet the word, it will help you remember it if you can see the pattern it matches. But don't see the pattern and then invent the word.


And look at the meaning of each word. Is it a one-way relationship?.
For example - What is the meaning of a devotee? Is it the person to whom something is done? No, it is a believer. The meaning is more important than the pattern.

A cooperator
Posted: Monday, October 7, 2019 1:50:12 PM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 10/27/2011
Posts: 3,641
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Location: Seiyun, Hadramawt, Yemen
thar wrote:
You cannot take a pattern that occurs in one, or even several examples, and make it a rule that applies to other things just because they look similar. It just doesn't work that way. Sometimes they do fit into that pattern, and sometimes they don't.

It is useful to see the pattern. But it is vital to apply it in the right places. And some of these are the wrong places.


A tip - where there is already a pair of words, there is no need to invent new ones
eg
buyer - seller
debtor - creditor
educator - learner/student
lender - borrower

And look at the meaning of each word. Is it a one-way relationship?.
For example - What is the meaning of a devotee? Is it the person to whom something is done? No, it is a believer. The meaning is more important than the pattern.


Thar,

First, but why did you not write "educatee" in-place of "learner/student" as long as "educatee" is someone to whom something is done?

Second, could you confirm if
Creditor(Debtee) is a person to whom a debt is owed.
Debtor is a person who owes money/ a debt to another/One that owes something to another.

Final, I think we should have inverted "buyer - seller" to " seller - buyer" to be fitted into the approbraite column as long as "buyer" is someone to whom something is done(sold)

Whoever doesn't own what he promises to those who do not deserve must not promise it.
A cooperator
Posted: Monday, October 7, 2019 1:55:35 PM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 10/27/2011
Posts: 3,641
Neurons: 13,816
Location: Seiyun, Hadramawt, Yemen
thar wrote:
You cannot take a pattern that occurs in one, or even several examples, and make it a rule that applies to other things just because they look similar. It just doesn't work that way. Sometimes they do fit into that pattern, and sometimes they don't.

And look at the meaning of each word. Is it a one-way relationship?.
For example - What is the meaning of a devotee? Is it the person to whom something is done? No, it is a believer. The meaning is more important than the pattern.


Thar,
First, but I don't know if these below can be classified based to "Is it the person to whom something is done?" or "Is it the person who does something to another?":

devoter
/worshiper(One who devotes or commits something to a cause, etc. ) - devotee
conducter - conductee



Second, what is the counterparties of the following:
- benefiter/benefactor (someone who benefits somebody else)
- caterer(a person or business that provides food and drinks for social events)
- worker(a person who does a specified type of work or who works in a specified way.

Final, I think you got what I am trying to classify in a list to help me memorize these words along with their synonyms[to facilitate word memorizing].
So, based to "Is it the person to whom something is done?" or "Is it the person who does something to another? ", I'll categorize these words in columns:

educator - educatee/learner/student
debtor - creditor
seller - buyer
lender - borrower
trainer - trainee
abducter - abductee
employer - employee
appointer - appointee


Whoever doesn't own what he promises to those who do not deserve must not promise it.
A cooperator
Posted: Wednesday, October 9, 2019 10:19:32 AM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 10/27/2011
Posts: 3,641
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Location: Seiyun, Hadramawt, Yemen
Could anyone please confirm my last points?

Whoever doesn't own what he promises to those who do not deserve must not promise it.
Romany
Posted: Wednesday, October 9, 2019 12:36:30 PM
Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 6/14/2009
Posts: 15,715
Neurons: 49,668
Location: Brighton, England, United Kingdom

Coop wrote: Could anyone please confirm my last points?

1) Thar wrote: "You are making life too complicated for yourself by continuing to spend your time constructing patterns and applying them too broadly. If you meet the word, it will help you remember it if you can see the pattern it matches. But don't see the pattern and then invent the word."

2)Thar also wrote re 'debtee': "It is a made-up word using the reverse logic of =or/-ee. But it is not what most people would consider a 'real' word, because that already exists - creditor. This also applies to "educatee". That's a nonsense, silly word as well.


Quote:
No exact matches found for "debtee"
Here are the nearest results:

English Dictionary
debt
debt-free
debtor
deb
dee"


3)Finally Thar advised: "You cannot take a pattern that occurs in one, or even several examples, and make it a rule that applies to other things just because they look similar. It just doesn't work that way. Sometimes they do fit into that pattern, and sometimes they don't."

Niether Thar nor anyone else can "confirm" what you want them to 'confirm'. Read the responses Thar has already taken a lot of his time to explain to you. You have your answers - they were given in Thar's very first post. Whether you want to pay attention or not is up to you.
A cooperator
Posted: Thursday, October 10, 2019 12:13:51 AM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 10/27/2011
Posts: 3,641
Neurons: 13,816
Location: Seiyun, Hadramawt, Yemen
Romany wrote:

Niether Thar nor anyone else can "confirm" what you want them to 'confirm'. Read the responses Thar has already taken a lot of his time to explain to you. You have your answers - they were given in Thar's very first post. Whether you want to pay attention or not is up to you.

I am only trying to classify such words in categories as in the table screen shot I posted before since it'd facilitate word memorizing.
How could possibly a non-native learner of English would be able to recall such vocabularies when she/he wants to converse or communicate in English?

Whoever doesn't own what he promises to those who do not deserve must not promise it.
Romany
Posted: Thursday, October 10, 2019 11:09:45 AM
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Joined: 6/14/2009
Posts: 15,715
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Location: Brighton, England, United Kingdom
Coop,
"How could possibly a non-native learner of English would be able to recall such vocabularies when she/he wants to converse or communicate in English?"


By doing what people have been exhorting you to do since you first joined TFD: - LISTEN to English being spoken - on the many sites that have been found and recommended to you, READ books, magazines, graphic novels, WATCH movies, the news, documentaries, Ted Talks.

Your case is not unique - many people learn another language while living in a country where no-one else speaks that language. Many people battle personal problems or country-wide wars/revolutions/etc. This even, as has been pointed out also, refers to other posters on TFD.

How do they succeed? By Listening, Reading and Watching the target language being used.
A cooperator
Posted: Thursday, October 10, 2019 9:27:34 PM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 10/27/2011
Posts: 3,641
Neurons: 13,816
Location: Seiyun, Hadramawt, Yemen
Romany wrote:
Coop,
"How could possibly a non-native learner of English would be able to recall such vocabularies when she/he wants to converse or communicate in English?"


By doing what people have been exhorting you to do since you first joined TFD: - LISTEN to English being spoken - on the many sites that have been found and recommended to you, READ books, magazines, graphic novels, WATCH movies, the news, documentaries, Ted Talks.

Your case is not unique - many people learn another language while living in a country where no-one else speaks that language. Many people battle personal problems or country-wide wars/revolutions/etc. This even, as has been pointed out also, refers to other posters on TFD.

How do they succeed? By Listening, Reading and Watching the target language being used.


When watching some movies shown with/without Arabic translation on some TV movie channels, such as MBC2, on Ku-Nikesat, I only understand a very little bit of their talking. So, I don't think watching such movies is worth watching even if there is a corresponding Arabic translation. The same thing happens too often when listening in to some news channels, such as the BBC news radio, that I wish that I had
topic speeches made on the BBC news radio transcribed(showing with closed caption titles/subtitles)
So, do you recommend to look for and watch other movies with subtitles? So, I'll be listening to their talking while reading the transcript of speech.

If you're gonna suggest some websites, or topics, other stuff facilitating English learning,including the five skills: speaking, listening, usage of English(grammar), writing, and reading, would you be so kind as to list some of them?

Why learn grammar rules which, when I converse/communicate in English, don't seem to help me speak fluently and make me sound like I am only wasting my time.

I think, I must use the grammar rules I am taught everyday while conversing or communicating in English. Only with that way, I can improve and perfect my speaking skill while the grammar points and rules taught to me everyday are being installed/stuck in my memory.

As a result, whatever I learn in grammar (the usage of English) would be useful and unforgettable.
But, how can I make that done as long as I don't find other people to speak with.

Some friend of mine advised me to write a transcript of a conversation in any topic, and then try to practise on it by repeating it again and again while speaking to myself until I am automatic.


But, to be honest with you, I find this way not interesting and boring since I feel I am not in a real conversation.


With respect to "debtee" is a made-up word, I'll be saying many English words were made-up then became normal words. Like "timelock" in "You are timelocked and cannot chat for another 3 minutes. You may skip the wait by purchasing tokens"

Whoever doesn't own what he promises to those who do not deserve must not promise it.
Romany
Posted: Saturday, October 12, 2019 8:01:49 PM
Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 6/14/2009
Posts: 15,715
Neurons: 49,668
Location: Brighton, England, United Kingdom
Of course you can't understand English films yet - that's the whole point of watching them!

You aren't being advised to take time off your studies so you can relax and watch a movie.Speak to the hand

You are being advised that there are different ways to study English. Not just one way.

And the main one is that you Listen. You listen to the way English sounds. Whether you understand it or not. Just as every child ever born learns to speak their own native language.

So: - Is English a fast language? Does it go up at the end of sentences? Is it loud? Does it go up and down in a pattern? Is it a slow language? Do we wait a while before answering and speak slowly? Do we put emphasis on certain words? (Again, even if you don't know what the word means).

Watch what they are doing when they say certain things. If someone is standing at a fridge, with their hand on the handle and they look back at someone else and say something, what do you think they are saying? Are they asking a question? Or, if they say a word each time someone gives them something, what are they saying? Even ifyou might think it should be "Thank you very much." do you hear anyone say that? What do they say? How do they say it? Does their voice change it's tone?

What would be the point of watching with Arabic sub-titles? You know perfectly well that it has different rules, different ways of saying things, things that would not be said in English, words there are no translation for. And that in English we say things you don't say in Russian. It would be like reading a book while a movie was playing: you'd be reading, not watching. And the concentration you should be using 100% on listening to English spoken would be divided while you read another language.

You are being advised to watch the movie as part of your study of the language. You watch the way peoples mouths move when they say certain English sounds. You see their expressions, you look at their body language when they are saying certain words - even when you don't know what the word means. You also watch how people act towards each other. Are they affectionate? Do they touch each other more than Russian people? Do they kiss on greeting each other? Do women shake hands with men? Do men speak differently to women than they do to other men? You observe much more than the words...you see the cultural differences. You begin to understand how culture plays a big part in language.

I am not going to give you names of websites any more.Over the years you have been given so many URLs to sites,not just by me but by many others that, had you ever gone on to them you would be speaking better English than The Queen! We have a saying in English "You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink." You have all the sites right in front of you - on the same device your are reading this on - we've led you to them. But none of us has been able to make you "drink" i.e. make use of them.

Coop. We've told you, people on other sites have told you and you yourself have also admitted: the way you are trying to learn English is NOT working. You're not an unintelligent person. And you're a hard-working person. But if one keeps trying to do something and it isn't working, then there's no sensible choice but to try other ways. What you are doing now will never make you an English speaker: - you still cannot ask questions properly, you write sentences that people sometimes can't even understand, often there isn't a single sentence in a post that is written properly, and you try to use Arabic to help you understand English. After 8 years!

Just try this one thing for now. Watch a documentary or a film. WITHOUT sub-titles. Concentrate on the things mentioned above. Try to guess what they must be saying. Listen to how they say the words you DO understand. (e.g. How do they say goodbye? Can you say it that way? Record yourself on your phone and play it back. Does it sound the same?). THEN watch it again - this time with English subtitles. Were you right in thinking that was what the movie was about? If not, WHY did you think it was about something else. What did you hear to make you think that?

See? It's hard work. And sure, it'll get boring sometimes: but studying IS sometimes boring. We have to expect it. No-one ever said that learning anything at all was easy. If it were, we wouldn't call it 'study', we'd call it 'being entertained."

Give it a go, mate. At least give it a go.

(Because you often misunderstand my motivation please understand; I am not angry. I'm not trying to mock you. I'm not being mean. I'm just talking to you in exactly the same way I would if you were standing in front of me. In English.)
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