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Is Jesus really exist in history? Options
Trichakra
Posted: Wednesday, September 14, 2016 12:46:34 AM

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Hi

What is the evidence that Jesus exist in history?
desca
Posted: Sunday, September 18, 2016 7:22:15 PM
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I recommend you to read on the history of the Roman Empire, unless you don't believe that the empire ever existed.

It's almost as similar as inquiring whether Moses ever existed in pharaoh's time while the pyramid is still standing sturdy until now.
Xxx Xxx 1
Posted: Wednesday, November 29, 2017 6:54:59 AM

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desca wrote:
I recommend you to read on the history of the Roman Empire, unless you don't believe that the empire ever existed.

It's almost as similar as inquiring whether Moses ever existed in pharaoh's time while the pyramid is still standing sturdy until now.


The North Pole exists..... so Santa exists, right?
Jyrkkä Jätkä
Posted: Wednesday, November 29, 2017 7:03:22 AM

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Quite many scholars of antiquity and Jewish and Roman history agree that Jesus of Nazareth really existed. Whether he was Messias and Son of God, is another thing.


In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.
Xxx Xxx 1
Posted: Wednesday, November 29, 2017 8:03:57 AM

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desca wrote:
I recommend you to read on the history of the Roman Empire, unless you don't believe that the empire ever existed.

It's almost as similar as inquiring whether Moses ever existed in pharaoh's time while the pyramid is still standing sturdy until now.


How do the pyramids prove that Moses existed exactly? I don't understand that logic, I must be missing some information that is obvious to you.
Xxx Xxx 1
Posted: Wednesday, November 29, 2017 8:06:36 AM

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Jyrkkä Jätkä wrote:
Quite many scholars of antiquity and Jewish and Roman history agree that Jesus of Nazareth really existed. Whether he was Messias and Son of God, is another thing.


Agreed.

So what evidence can those "Quite many scholars of antiquity and Jewish and Roman history" provide us with, to show Trichakra what they based their conclusions on?
Jyrkkä Jätkä
Posted: Thursday, November 30, 2017 5:14:43 AM

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You can start with this TFD/Wiki article of Historical Jesus, and then continue by reading the sources.


"...

Evidence of Jesus

There is no physical or archaeological evidence for Jesus. All sources are documentary, mainly Christian writings, such as the gospels and the purported letters of the apostles. The authenticity and reliability of these sources has been questioned by many scholars, and few events mentioned in the gospels are universally accepted.[39]

In conjunction with biblical sources, three mentions of Jesus in non-Christian sources have been used in the historical analyses of the existence of Jesus.[40] These are two passages in the writings of the Jewish historian Josephus, and one from the Roman historian Tacitus.[40][41]

Josephus' Antiquities of the Jews, written around 93–94 AD, includes two references to the biblical Jesus Christ in Books 18 and 20. The general scholarly view is that while the longer passage, known as the Testimonium Flavianum, is most likely not authentic in its entirety, it is broadly agreed upon that it originally consisted of an authentic nucleus, which was then subject to Christian interpolation.[42][43] Of the other mention in Josephus, Josephus scholar Louis H. Feldman has stated that "few have doubted the genuineness" of Josephus' reference to Jesus in Antiquities 20, 9, 1 and it is only disputed by a small number of scholars.[44][45][46][47]

Roman historian Tacitus referred to Christus and his execution by Pontius Pilate in his Annals (written c. AD 116), book 15, chapter 44.[48] Robert E. Van Voorst states that the very negative tone of Tacitus' comments on Christians make the passage extremely unlikely to have been forged by a Christian scribe[49] and Boyd and Eddy state that the Tacitus reference is now widely accepted as an independent confirmation of Christ's crucifixion,[50] although some scholars question the authenticity of the passage on various grounds.[51]

Other considerations outside Christendom are the possible mentions of Jesus in the Talmud. The Talmud speaks in some detail of the conduct of criminal cases of Israel and gathered in one place from 200-500 C.E. "On the eve of the Passover Yeshua was hanged. For forty days before the execution took place, a herald went forth and cried, "He is going forth to be stoned because he has practised sorcery and enticed Israel to apostacy." The first date of the Sanhedrin judiciary council being recorded as functioning is 57 B.C.E.[52]


Two widely accepted historical facts


Almost all modern scholars consider his baptism and crucifixion to be historical facts.[9][53]

..."





In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.
almo 1
Posted: Thursday, November 30, 2017 5:32:48 AM
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Dennis Chen
Posted: Saturday, December 2, 2017 2:19:21 PM

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History books say that he did exist, but it's hard to prove it now.
pedro
Posted: Wednesday, December 13, 2017 2:31:47 AM

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If I went to put some flowers on my mother's grave and found that it had been dug up, I wouldn't rejoice and go looking for her in the shopping mall.

All good ideas arrive by chance- Max Ernst
jacobusmaximus
Posted: Wednesday, December 13, 2017 10:22:00 AM

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pedro wrote:
If I went to put some flowers on my mother's grave and found that it had been dug up, I wouldn't rejoice and go looking for her in the shopping mall.


Of course you wouldn't, Pedro. Neither did Mary Magdalene when she found Jesus' tomb empty. Mary wept - John 20:13. But if you later met your mother alive and well in the Garden Centre you would rejoice. As did Mary when she later met Jesus.

I remember, therefore I am.
pedro
Posted: Friday, December 15, 2017 7:11:56 AM

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She would have bequeathed all her money by then so I suppose I would be picking up the bill.

All good ideas arrive by chance- Max Ernst
biba
Posted: Monday, March 5, 2018 3:24:46 PM

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Trichakra wrote:
Hi

What is the evidence that Jesus exist in history?



Question: "Did Jesus really exist? Is there any historical evidence of Jesus Christ?"

Answer: Typically, when this question is asked, the person asking qualifies the question with “outside of the Bible.” We do not grant this idea that the Bible cannot be considered a source of evidence for the existence of Jesus. The New Testament contains hundreds of references to Jesus Christ. There are those who date the writing of the Gospels to the second century A.D., more than 100 years after Jesus' death. Even if this were the case (which we strongly dispute), in terms of ancient evidences, writings less than 200 years after events took place are considered very reliable evidences. Further, the vast majority of scholars (Christian and non-Christian) will grant that the Epistles of Paul (at least some of them) were in fact written by Paul in the middle of the first century A.D., less than 40 years after Jesus' death. In terms of ancient manuscript evidence, this is extraordinarily strong proof of the existence of a man named Jesus in Israel in the early first century A.D.

It is also important to recognize that in A.D. 70, the Romans invaded and destroyed Jerusalem and most of Israel, slaughtering its inhabitants. Entire cities were literally burned to the ground. We should not be surprised, then, if much evidence of Jesus' existence was destroyed. Many of the eyewitnesses of Jesus would have been killed. These facts likely limited the amount of surviving eyewitness testimony of Jesus.

Considering that Jesus' ministry was largely confined to a relatively unimportant area in a small corner of the Roman Empire, a surprising amount of information about Jesus can be drawn from secular historical sources. Some of the more important historical evidences of Jesus include the following:

The first-century Roman Tacitus, who is considered one of the more accurate historians of the ancient world, mentioned superstitious “Christians” (from Christus, which is Latin for Christ), who suffered under Pontius Pilate during the reign of Tiberius. Suetonius, chief secretary to Emperor Hadrian, wrote that there was a man named Chrestus (or Christ) who lived during the first century (Annals 15.44).

Flavius Josephus is the most famous Jewish historian. In his Antiquities he refers to James, “the brother of Jesus, who was called Christ.” There is a controversial verse (18:3) that says, “Now there was about this time Jesus, a wise man, if it be lawful to call him a man. For he was one who wrought surprising feats....He was [the] Christ...he appeared to them alive again the third day, as the divine prophets had foretold these and ten thousand other wonderful things concerning him.” One version reads, “At this time there was a wise man named Jesus. His conduct was good and [he] was known to be virtuous. And many people from among the Jews and the other nations became his disciples. Pilate condemned him to be crucified and to die. But those who became his disciples did not abandon his discipleship. They reported that he had appeared to them three days after his crucifixion, and that he was alive; accordingly he was perhaps the Messiah, concerning whom the prophets have recounted wonders.”

Julius Africanus quotes the historian Thallus in a discussion of the darkness which followed the crucifixion of Christ (Extant Writings, 18).

Pliny the Younger, in Letters 10:96, recorded early Christian worship practices including the fact that Christians worshiped Jesus as God and were very ethical, and he includes a reference to the love feast and Lord’s Supper.

The Babylonian Talmud (Sanhedrin 43a) confirms Jesus' crucifixion on the eve of Passover and the accusations against Christ of practicing sorcery and encouraging Jewish apostasy.

Lucian of Samosata was a second-century Greek writer who admits that Jesus was worshiped by Christians, introduced new teachings, and was crucified for them. He said that Jesus' teachings included the brotherhood of believers, the importance of conversion, and the importance of denying other gods. Christians lived according to Jesus’ laws, believed themselves to be immortal, and were characterized by contempt for death, voluntary self-devotion, and renunciation of material goods.

Mara Bar-Serapion confirms that Jesus was thought to be a wise and virtuous man, was considered by many to be the king of Israel, was put to death by the Jews, and lived on in the teachings of His followers.

Then we have all the Gnostic writings (The Gospel of Truth, The Apocryphon of John, The Gospel of Thomas, The Treatise on Resurrection, etc.) that all mention Jesus.

In fact, we can almost reconstruct the gospel just from early non-Christian sources: Jesus was called the Christ (Josephus), did “magic,” led Israel into new teachings, and was hanged on Passover for them (Babylonian Talmud) in Judea (Tacitus), but claimed to be God and would return (Eliezar), which his followers believed, worshipping Him as God (Pliny the Younger).

There is overwhelming evidence for the existence of Jesus Christ, both in secular and biblical history. Perhaps the greatest evidence that Jesus did exist is the fact that literally thousands of Christians in the first century A.D., including the twelve apostles, were willing to give their lives as martyrs for Jesus Christ. People will die for what they believe to be true, but no one will die for what they know to be a lie.

https://www.gotquestions.org/did-Jesus-exist.html

“Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.” -John 20:29
Ivan Fadeev
Posted: Thursday, January 10, 2019 2:00:35 PM

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To found a basis to believe that Jesus existed is not that hard if you take into consideration the fact that he has always been told to have disciples who are known as 12 Apostles, though, there were 13 with Paul.

Do you find it hard to believe that they also existed? If Jesus was bogus or a humbug then we need to explain to ourselves why Apostles were so ready to die for a humbug. Probably, they never existed. Well, where did all the churches come from in this world then?
Maybe, you find it hard to believe that churches exist... I can understand that. In that case, do you believe that you exist or do you believe in what you believe can also be quite valid questions...

I don't think that we have more proofs of Jesus's not having existed than the opposite.
whatson
Posted: Friday, January 11, 2019 2:36:27 PM
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*
It is true that Jesus was involved in dabbling in wine, fish and bread,
but nowhere is it written that he laid hands on substances of a higher
degree of solidity or geometric sobriety. In fewer words: he built nothing
to prove his existence. The existence of churches doesn't prove anything.

As the existence of pre-Christian temples (that have escaped Christian
destruction) is no proof of any imaginary figure.

The only thing that may prove anything is excrement - it seems to say:
Hello! Animals (human- or non-) trod at one time here and the vicinity.




Sometimes I wish there existed some kind of god.
Ivan Fadeev
Posted: Sunday, January 13, 2019 12:50:51 PM

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whatson wrote:
*
It is true that Jesus was involved in dabbling in wine, fish and bread,
but nowhere is it written that he laid hands on substances of a higher
degree of solidity or geometric sobriety. In fewer words: he built nothing
to prove his existence. The existence of churches doesn't prove anything.

As the existence of pre-Christian temples (that have escaped Christian
destruction) is no proof of any imaginary figure.

The only thing that may prove anything is excrement - it seems to say:
Hello! Animals (human- or non-) trod at one time here and the vicinity.


It's just one man's opinion but not mine. There is a field of science called history. Seems like it means nothing to you. Every local church has its history and it's possible to track down its foundation. But of course it's to difficult for you. Absolutely, excrement means much more to you than logic and history.
Parpar1836
Posted: Monday, January 14, 2019 5:35:28 PM
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As best I understand, outside of the Gospels, there is little or no historical evidence of the existence of Jesus. Augustus Caesar, Caiaphas (Kayafos), Herod, and Pontius Pilate were all historical figures, but there is much in the Gospels that is non-historical. (And the four Gospels contradict themselves in key details.) There is much that's inexplicable. For example, Pilate asking the crowd whether to spare Barabbas or Jesus. I mean, really . . . would a ruthless tyrant solicit the vote of a mob? And the timing of the Last Supper . . . was it a Passover seder? JC gives his disciple money to buy food at a time when all the shops would have been closed for the holiday. And so forth and so on.

The passage supposedly written by Flavius Josephus about the wonder-worker is undoubtedly an interpolation by a later hand. It is not authentic.

I consider Rabbi Tovia Singer an authority on historical matters such as this. He has a Website, a radio show, and a series of DVDs, Let's Get Biblical.
Ivan Fadeev
Posted: Tuesday, January 15, 2019 1:24:10 AM

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Do you believe that the Apostles existed? All of them except one were murdered. They must have died for a bogus thing... in your opinion.
Drag0nspeaker
Posted: Tuesday, January 15, 2019 11:33:57 AM

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There are books and scrolls written four hundred years and more before "the historical period of Christ" (when Herod was around) which tell of the god-become-man born at midwinter of a virgin, attended by three wise men, having twelve followers, dying and rising after three days.

These books still exist. Does that mean that Mithras existed as a historical figure?

I, personally, do NOT believe that Jesus of Nazareth did not exist (in this case, a double negative does not make a positive). I just feel that nothing said so far proves it - but definitely nothing which has been said proves that it's not true.

Mind you, just go back two or three hundred years and you will find that there are people (ancestors of yours, maybe) who are not recorded anywhere except in memory. For some reason they were not mentioned in the church records - or the baptismal log has been destroyed or whatever.
So lack of evidence is NOT evidence of lack.

However, the fact that many hundreds or a few thousand people in the year 150 believed in Jesus means nothing more than the fact that many thousands of people today believe that the Archangel of the Lord came down two hundred years ago and left a couple of golden books which ONE man read, then they mysteriously disappeared.

By the argument that hundreds of disciples in the first century means Jesus must be true, the evidence is there - thousands of people believe it, and it's only two hundred years ago, so it must be true that the Angel Moroni came to earth in 1823.

Wyrd bið ful aræd - bull!
Ivan Fadeev
Posted: Tuesday, January 15, 2019 4:16:33 PM

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Dragon hi!
I am surprised to hear they way you back up your argumentation. I had expected more.

The first very heavy argument in favour of Jesus's existence is the very questioning of his existence. If you know for sure that something doesn't exist you don't even care about it. You don't try to disprove it which is not the case here. And it's important.

There are so many people who take this question very seriously which means that it's not a trifle. It means that they possibility of his existence is very high and they almost believe in his existence (or they believe but afraid to admit it) If his existence were unreal and had never taken place in history no one would really bother about it so hard. So, the first reason why people want to reject his existence deals with their psychological dimension. Subconsciously they know he existed but it's hard to bear and they want to find ground to reject his existence.

It's just a bit on the topic. I have more.

Kirill Vorobyov
Posted: Wednesday, January 16, 2019 7:33:59 AM

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Drag0nspeaker wrote:
There are books and scrolls written four hundred years and more before "the historical period of Christ" (when Herod was around) which tell of the god-become-man born at midwinter of a virgin, attended by three wise men, having twelve followers, dying and rising after three days.



In practical terms one unfortunate thing for me is that since the rise of Christianity also coincided with the general decline of civilization, the Christian churches have proven unable to even correctly synchronize their newly named holidays with the natural cycles those holidays originally stemmed from.

For example, my personal feeling is still that the new year comes on the night of the Day of the Winter Solstice, which was December 21 in 2018, with the daylight starting to increase - that's when the new year really starts, and there's really the good reason to celebrate. But instead I have to celebrate it a week later just because somebody at some point messed up with the calendar, and that's despite all those people have always been paid handsomely, too. In relative terms much better than astronomers in the preceding era, I am sure.

Drag0nspeaker
Posted: Wednesday, January 16, 2019 11:34:30 AM

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Hi Ivan!
Yes - I'm not really arguing either way, so nothing I say will be a strong argument.

My main point is that "So lack of evidence is NOT evidence of lack." All these attempts to prove that Jesus was not a real person are pretty useless. As I said - there is probably the same amount of 'lack of evidence' for some carpenter's sons only three hundred years ago - particularly in areas in which churches and church records were destroyed.

There is no way anyone could prove that Christ (as a historical figure) did not exist. Well, I suppose someone could invent a time-machine . . .

However, I must say that your argument "So many people are trying to prove he didn't exist - and this proves that he did" is two pronged.
You could, just as easily, say "So many people are trying to prove he did exist - and this proves that he didn't."

**************
Hi Kirill
On midwinter and all that - in Britain (particularly the south) the lengths of the day and night stay steady for over a week around midwinter. London Sunset/Sunrise
2019
15/12 - 7h 52 mins daylight
16/12 - 7h 51
17/12 - 7h 50
18/12 - 7h 50
19/12 - 7h 50
20/12 - 7h 50
21/12 - 7h 50
22/12 - 7h 50
23/12 - 7h 50
24/12 - 7h 50
25/12 - 7h 50
26/12 - 7h 51
27/12 - 7h 51
28/12 - 7h 52
29/12 - 7h 53

The night of the 25th is the first night when you can actually notice that the sun sets slightly later and rises slightly earlier.
This is when the pre-Christian pagan celebrations tended to be centred.

Mind you - even in Christian days, Pope Gregory was NOT popular.
Besides midwinter shifting around when he reformed the calendar, the more-important "beginning of summer" moved - which threw everyone's lives into disarray. Instead of the Hawthorn flowers blooming on the first of May (which had been the sign of summer beginning for centuries), none could be seen until the tenth!

Wyrd bið ful aræd - bull!
whatson
Posted: Wednesday, January 16, 2019 3:12:10 PM
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Ivan Fadeev wrote:
Do you believe that the Apostles existed? All of them except one were murdered. They must have died for a bogus thing... in your opinion.


When the bogus thing is packaged with the promise
of a pleasant/pleasurable afterlife/heaven/paradise,
it is irresistible for the impressionable romantics.

See modern-day suicide bombers. Do you think they
just do it without expecting the promised reward?

I like the story reported a few years ago about
a young man who prior to the blast wrapped his
sexual organs into tissue paper to ensure that they
are undamaged, in working order when he arrives
at the final destination.


Sometimes I wish there existed some kind of god.
Kirill Vorobyov
Posted: Thursday, January 17, 2019 6:36:14 AM

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We are still at 7 h 45 today.. And even when the climate warms, it won't help to extend the daylight.
Epiphileon
Posted: Friday, January 18, 2019 4:37:38 AM

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Trichakra wrote:
Hi

What is the evidence that Jesus exist in history?


I'm curious what difference it makes whether there was a man named Jesus referred to in the Bible who actually existed?

Question authority. How do you know, that you know, what you know?
Drag0nspeaker
Posted: Friday, January 18, 2019 7:17:48 PM

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Epiphileon wrote:
I'm curious what difference it makes whether there was a man named Jesus referred to in the Bible who actually existed?

'Satiable curtiosity!



Wyrd bið ful aræd - bull!
Sarrriesfan
Posted: Saturday, January 19, 2019 1:36:19 PM

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Epiphileon wrote:
Trichakra wrote:
Hi

What is the evidence that Jesus exist in history?


I'm curious what difference it makes whether there was a man named Jesus referred to in the Bible who actually existed?


Possibly for some whose faith is not as strong as others the reassurance that Jesus was a real historical figure is comforting.

I lack the imagination for a witty signature.
Romany
Posted: Monday, January 21, 2019 7:35:25 AM
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I would have thought, Sarries, that for a Christian, the idea of whether the person who is talked about in the Gospels really existed is a pre-requisite for their belief? If the Christ didn't ever exist they wouldn't have a reason to be Christians.

I consider this to be the reason that, rather than going to proven historical sites for information about the possibility of a Christ having come to earth - that's far too frightening - so they go, rather, to Christian sites which re-enforce what they WANT to believe.

That's very, very comforting.
Sarrriesfan
Posted: Monday, January 21, 2019 10:08:44 AM

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Romany wrote:

I would have thought, Sarries, that for a Christian, the idea of whether the person who is talked about in the Gospels really existed is a pre-requisite for their belief? If the Christ didn't ever exist they wouldn't have a reason to be Christians.

I consider this to be the reason that, rather than going to proven historical sites for information about the possibility of a Christ having come to earth - that's far too frightening -ere so they go, rather, to Christian sites which re-enforce what they WANT to believe.

That's very, very comforting.


Romany it won't be the same for everyone, I studied Geology and am an atheist but did meet some other students on my course that where trying to reconcile their faith with the science they knew. Some Christians believe the literal truth of the teaching of the Bible others try to understand it in different ways.

For some the idea that Earth was created in seven days is allegorical they tried to see the various events in the formation of the Earth as being the different stages described in the Bible.

It did not make much sense to me, holding fossils that were hundreds of millions of years in my hand but there you go.

Equally for them the historical existance of Jesus represented a further verification of what they believed to be true.

I lack the imagination for a witty signature.
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