The Free Dictionary  
mailing list For webmasters
Welcome Guest Forum Search | Active Topics | Members

a participle can be a noun (original and derived nouns) Options
A cooperator
Posted: Monday, December 17, 2018 6:01:05 PM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 10/27/2011
Posts: 3,304
Neurons: 12,385
Location: Ḩāḑírah, Hadramawt, Yemen
Hi,

As far as I know that there is an original noun like, man, judge, child, etc, and derived noun like, killer, seller, etc.
But, I don't know if a participle can be a noun, like "the standing up", "the broken".

Whoever doesn't own what he promises to those who do not deserve must not promise it.
Audiendus
Posted: Monday, December 17, 2018 8:49:35 PM
Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 8/24/2011
Posts: 5,581
Neurons: 999,312
Location: London, England, United Kingdom
A cooperator wrote:
But, I don't know if a participle can be a noun, like "the standing up", "the broken".

Not usually, but there are a few expressions where a participle can be used as a (plural) noun, e.g:

We pray for both the living and the dead.
The war memorial commemorates the fallen in both world wars.
We should show sympathy to the bereaved.
Both the willing and the unwilling have to learn. [= those who want to and those who do not]
They arranged for medics to treat the injured.


With most participles, however, this construction does not sound natural, and it is necessary to add a noun:

The shopkeeper often received praise from the satisfied.
The shopkeeper often received praise from (the) satisfied customers.

The disappointed voted against the government.
(The) disappointed electors voted against the government.

The working are glad of a holiday.
(The) working people are glad of a holiday.



In some languages, unlike English, participles are commonly used alone to signify a singular or plural noun. For example, in French, gagnant means 'winning' (it is the present participle of gagner, "to win", and therefore basically an adjective). But "le gagnant" means "the winner", and "les gagnants" means "the winners". Are you saying that Arabic uses a similar construction?
A cooperator
Posted: Friday, December 21, 2018 6:41:42 PM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 10/27/2011
Posts: 3,304
Neurons: 12,385
Location: Ḩāḑírah, Hadramawt, Yemen
Audiendus wrote:

In some languages, unlike English, participles are commonly used alone to signify a singular or plural noun. For example, in French, gagnant means 'winning' (it is the present participle of gagner, "to win", and therefore basically an adjective). But "le gagnant" means "the winner", and "les gagnants" means "the winners". Are you saying that Arabic uses a similar construction?

Thanks a lot,
Yes, I absolutely mean that Arabic use a similar constructions. I am not sure a hundred percent. But, I am a little bit sure almost all present and past participle of a verb can be used a derived nouns after being modified by 'the', in Arabic .


Yes, I absolutely mean that Arabic uses a similar construction. But, not a participle which is used alone to signify a singular or plural noun. However, a participle needs to be modified by the definite article 'the' to signify a singular or plural noun. So, a participle being not modified by the defining article 'the' will be used as an adjective.



In English, you can also have nouns derived from 'suffix' and prefix', which I think this kind of construction isn't found, I think, such as:
The winner(But, in this case, you said 'no need' to modify 'winner' with 'the' to signify a singular or plural noun)

I don't know how an English learner can know whether a participle of a verb can be used a derived noun or not.
Can the thinking of " any verb who can be used as a noun after adding 'suffix' or 'prefix'(Reader, winer, player), then its participle cannot be used as a noun." be helpful to know whether a participle of a verb can be used a derived noun or not?


Also, in English, even 'adjective' can be used to signify a plural noun.
The poor and rich.
I don't know how to know which adjectives can be used to signify a plural noun and which adjectives cannot be used.







Whoever doesn't own what he promises to those who do not deserve must not promise it.
Audiendus
Posted: Friday, December 21, 2018 10:20:14 PM
Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 8/24/2011
Posts: 5,581
Neurons: 999,312
Location: London, England, United Kingdom
A cooperator wrote:
In English, you can also have nouns derived from 'suffix' and prefix', which I think this kind of construction isn't found, I think, such as:
The winner(But, in this case, you said 'no need' to modify 'winner' with 'the' to signify a singular or plural noun) In English, words such as "reader", "winner" and "player" are regarded as ordinary nouns. They do not have any special rules.

I don't know how an English learner can know whether a participle of a verb can be used a derived noun or not.
Can the thinking of " any verb who can be used as a noun after adding 'suffix' or 'prefix'(Reader, winer, player), then its participle cannot be used as a noun." be helpful to know whether a participle of a verb can be used a derived noun or not? I cannot think of any examples of verbs that have both a derived noun and a participle that can be used as a noun. But I am not sure that there are none.

Also, in English, even 'adjective' can be used to signify a plural noun.
The poor and rich.
I don't know how to know which adjectives can be used to signify a plural noun and which adjectives cannot be used. This can only be learned by the experience of reading and listening to plenty of English.
Drag0nspeaker
Posted: Monday, December 24, 2018 6:29:43 AM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 9/12/2011
Posts: 31,675
Neurons: 190,602
Location: Livingston, Scotland, United Kingdom
There are quite a few cases in which there is a noun (which is ONLY a noun) and also a gerund (the noun derived from a verb, which has the same form as the participle). There can be more just these two.

Verb - swim
noun - swimmer (a person who swims)
gerund - swimming (the action of swimming)

Verb - act (take part in theatre or a film)
noun - actor (person who acts)
gerund - acting (the action of taking part in a film)
verb - act (do something)
noun - actor (person who does something)
noun - action (the thing done)
noun - activity (the state of being active)

There are no formal rules, but almost ALWAYS, the '-ing' form is "the action of the verb", and the '-er' or '-or' form is "the person or thing which does it".

I swim every day. ("Swim" is the verb.)
Swimming is good for you. ("Swimming" is the subject - the action)
The swimmer became very tired. ("The swimmer" is the subject - the person who swims.)

**************
I can only really say the same as Audiendus.
The only way to know how to use these is to read and listen to a lot of English speakers using normal English, not just formal text books and articles.

Studying grammar rules and grammar books will not teach you how to use English. They give a very good base and 'foundation' for learning the language.

Wyrd bið ful aræd - bull!
Audiendus
Posted: Monday, December 24, 2018 8:45:24 AM
Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 8/24/2011
Posts: 5,581
Neurons: 999,312
Location: London, England, United Kingdom
Drag0nspeaker wrote:
There are quite a few cases in which there is a noun (which is ONLY a noun) and also a gerund (the noun derived from a verb, which has the same form as the participle).

Yes. Any verb can be put in the gerund form, to denote the action/state, but only a few participles (which are basically adjectives) can be used as 'derived nouns' to denote the persons (plural*) performing the action or undergoing the state (e.g. 'the living', 'the bereaved', 'the discerning', 'the fallen'). I cannot think of any verbs which have both an '-er' and an '-ing' or '-ed' form for the person(s) - but there may be some.

* The expression "the following" is an exception - it can be singular (and of course it refers to a thing, not a person).
Drag0nspeaker
Posted: Monday, December 24, 2018 9:57:40 AM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 9/12/2011
Posts: 31,675
Neurons: 190,602
Location: Livingston, Scotland, United Kingdom
Ah - I see the difference.

I suppose one could form an '-er' noun from some of them in special circumstances - but they do sound odd, don't they. I think newspapers do it occasionally, which adds to the 'impression' that newsmen don't know English.

"Fallers Rescued in Cairngorms" - Three people who fell three hundred feet while climbing in the Cairngorm Mountains were rescued today . . .


Wyrd bið ful aræd - bull!
Audiendus
Posted: Monday, December 24, 2018 10:40:06 AM
Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 8/24/2011
Posts: 5,581
Neurons: 999,312
Location: London, England, United Kingdom
To digress a little, it is interesting that the authentic French expression for "good liver" (a person who lives well) is bon vivant (using the present participle of vivre (to live) as a derived noun). But in English we tend to say bon viveur (using the agent suffix -eur, which corresponds to the English -er). But bon viveur is not (normally) used in French; it is pseudo-French (like nom de plume instead of the authentic nom de guerre).
A cooperator
Posted: Thursday, January 3, 2019 4:22:02 PM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 10/27/2011
Posts: 3,304
Neurons: 12,385
Location: Ḩāḑírah, Hadramawt, Yemen
Audiendus wrote:
A cooperator wrote:
In English, you can also have nouns derived from 'suffix' and prefix', which I think this kind of construction isn't found, I think, such as:
The winner(But, in this case, you said 'no need' to modify 'winner' with 'the' to signify a singular or plural noun) In English, words such as "reader", "winner" and "player" are regarded as ordinary nouns. They do not have any special rules.


The derived nouns can be formed from the following:
1- adding suffix and prefix to (read, reader, issue, issuer(Issuer Country), dark, darkness, etc) - So, "reader", "winner" and "player" are not regarded as ordinary original nouns, but they are derived.
2- the present participle (the living, etc)
3- the past participle (the dead, the damned, the fallen, the given, the chosen, the lost, the venearted, the beloved, etc)
The dead never come back alive.
We fear the damned.
He honored our fallen.
This is a given.
You are the chosen.
The lost were among us.
They obey the venerated.
My beloved kissed me.

4- the adjectives (the rich, the poor, etc)


Also, why does English tend to introduce such nouns with 'the'?

Whoever doesn't own what he promises to those who do not deserve must not promise it.
thar
Posted: Thursday, January 3, 2019 4:42:30 PM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 7/8/2010
Posts: 18,915
Neurons: 76,555
Because 'dead' and 'poor' 'chosen' and not nouns, they are adjectives.
A dead man, poor people, the chosen ones.

So saying:
'dead come back to life'
is wrong. It makes no sense. 'Dead' is an adjective.

But people speaking found a way to express what they wanted - to make it a noun. They did that by using the definite article. That is the code that tells the listener 'this is a noun describing the group'.
That way of speaking then becomes a 'grammar rule'.

Remember native speakers of any language don't learn 'grammar rules'. They learn they way people speak to express what they want to say.
'Why' is often not a relevant question. It is just the way it is.
A cooperator
Posted: Thursday, January 3, 2019 7:22:33 PM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 10/27/2011
Posts: 3,304
Neurons: 12,385
Location: Ḩāḑírah, Hadramawt, Yemen
thar wrote:
Because 'dead' and 'poor' 'chosen' and not nouns, they are adjectives.
A dead man, poor people, the chosen ones.

So saying:
'dead come back to life'
is wrong. It makes no sense. 'Dead' is an adjective.

But people speaking found a way to express what they wanted - to make it a noun. They did that by using the definite article. That is the code that tells the listener 'this is a noun describing the group'.
That way of speaking then becomes a 'grammar rule'.

Wow! well-done, Thar,
That is really interesting.

Whoever doesn't own what he promises to those who do not deserve must not promise it.
A cooperator
Posted: Monday, January 7, 2019 4:09:51 AM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 10/27/2011
Posts: 3,304
Neurons: 12,385
Location: Ḩāḑírah, Hadramawt, Yemen
Audiendus wrote:

Also, in English, even 'adjective' can be used to signify a plural noun.

I don't know how to know which adjectives can be used to signify a plural noun and which adjectives cannot be used. This can only be learned by the experience of reading and listening to plenty of English.


So, you think I should write down the adjectives used as plural nouns whenever I come across ones:
1- thank you so much. It's really scary to be here among the smartest of the smart.
2- the rich must be merciful to the poor.
3- we pray for both the dead and the living .

Whoever doesn't own what he promises to those who do not deserve must not promise it.
Audiendus
Posted: Monday, January 7, 2019 7:47:43 AM
Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 8/24/2011
Posts: 5,581
Neurons: 999,312
Location: London, England, United Kingdom
A cooperator wrote:
So, you think I should write down the adjectives used as plural nouns whenever I come across ones


Yes, that may be helpful.
A cooperator
Posted: Monday, January 7, 2019 8:39:48 AM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 10/27/2011
Posts: 3,304
Neurons: 12,385
Location: Ḩāḑírah, Hadramawt, Yemen
Audiendus wrote:
A cooperator wrote:
So, you think I should write down the adjectives used as plural nouns whenever I come across ones


Yes, that may be helpful.

I think I was wrong listing "3- we pray for both the dead and the living" since "dead" and "living" are participles-derived adjectives-formed nouns, and not original adjectives-formed nouns.
1- thank you so much. It's really scary to be here among the smartest of the smart.
2- the rich must be merciful to the poor.

Do you think "the poor people", "the rich people", and "the smart people" would be equivalent to "the poor", "the rich", and "the smart" in order?


Whoever doesn't own what he promises to those who do not deserve must not promise it.
Audiendus
Posted: Monday, January 7, 2019 11:08:34 AM
Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 8/24/2011
Posts: 5,581
Neurons: 999,312
Location: London, England, United Kingdom
A cooperator wrote:

I think I was wrong listing "3- we pray for both the dead and the living" since "dead" and "living" are participles-derived adjectives-formed nouns, and not original adjectives-formed nouns. That makes no difference.
1- thank you so much. It's really scary to be here among the smartest of the smart.
2- the rich must be merciful to the poor.

Do you think "the poor people", "the rich people", and "the smart people" would be equivalent to "the poor", "the rich", and "the smart" in order? "The poor", "the rich" and "the smart" are equivalent to "poor people", "rich people" and "smart people". When we say "people", meaning people in general, we do not use "the", because we do not mean any specific people. The rule is different when we use the adjective alone as a noun; we use "the" to show that it functions as a noun (even though we do not mean specific people).
palapaguy
Posted: Monday, January 7, 2019 12:50:44 PM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 10/28/2013
Posts: 1,423
Neurons: 12,121
Location: Calabasas, California, United States
A cooperator wrote:
Hi,

As far as I know that there is an original noun like, man, judge, child, etc, and derived noun like, killer, seller, etc.
But, I don't know if a participle can be a noun, like "the standing up", "the broken".


Coop:
"As far as I know that ... " is not grammatically correct. It should be "As far as I know, ..."
A cooperator
Posted: Sunday, January 27, 2019 6:40:25 AM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 10/27/2011
Posts: 3,304
Neurons: 12,385
Location: Ḩāḑírah, Hadramawt, Yemen
palapaguy wrote:
A cooperator wrote:
Hi,

As far as I know that there is an original noun like, man, judge, child, etc, and derived noun like, killer, seller, etc.
But, I don't know if a participle can be a noun, like "the standing up", "the broken".


Coop:
"As far as I know that ... " is not grammatically correct. It should be "As far as I know, ..."

plapaguy
Firstly, as you may know I am a non-native English speaker, and secondly, I live in an environment where English is so rarely spoken that I never ever found a chance of practising what I learn everyday in English. So, if you're tracking my mistakes, you'd find a lot. But, if you were so, really, I would like to kindly ask you to ask yourself if you were I, then might you not be faced with issues learning the language and do some errors while learning English language in a non-English speaking country?
So, would you be so kind as to tell me why "as far as I know that..." is incorrect?

Whoever doesn't own what he promises to those who do not deserve must not promise it.
A cooperator
Posted: Saturday, February 2, 2019 9:37:38 AM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 10/27/2011
Posts: 3,304
Neurons: 12,385
Location: Ḩāḑírah, Hadramawt, Yemen
palapaguy wrote:
A cooperator wrote:
Hi,

As far as I know that there is an original noun like, man, judge, child, etc, and derived noun like, killer, seller, etc.
But, I don't know if a participle can be a noun, like "the standing up", "the broken".


Coop:
"As far as I know that ... " is not grammatically correct. It should be "As far as I know, ..."

Plapaguy,
Would you be so kind as to tell me why "as far as I know that..." is incorrect?

Whoever doesn't own what he promises to those who do not deserve must not promise it.
Users browsing this topic
Guest


Forum Jump
You cannot post new topics in this forum.
You cannot reply to topics in this forum.
You cannot delete your posts in this forum.
You cannot edit your posts in this forum.
You cannot create polls in this forum.
You cannot vote in polls in this forum.

Main Forum RSS : RSS
Forum Terms and Guidelines | Privacy policy | Copyright © 2008-2019 Farlex, Inc. All rights reserved.